Re: [Simh] VAX Tape Emulation?

[Zane Healy]

> On Jan 24, 2018, at 2:17 PM, Paul Koning  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>> On Jan 24, 2018, at 5:07 PM, Mark Pizzolato  wrote:
>> 
>> On Wednesday, January 24, 2018 at 2:03 PM, Zane Healy wrote:
>>> What type/size of tapes does the VAX emulation support?  I was looking
>>> through the doc’s and it wasn’t obvious to me.  Is there a size limit?
>> 
>> How big is your disk?  :-)
>> 
>> Really, there is no actual limit on total tape size, since the data format 
>> is 
>> only concerned with tape records which are then processed sequentially.
> 
> Then again, SIMH supports limiting the emulated tape size.  The SIMH VAX 
> document shows that it uses this feature: the tape units can be set to a 
> specific size limit, or 0 for unlimited.  The same is true for various other 
> emulations; I see the PDP11 has the same sort of thing, and for example its 
> TMSCP controller defaults to 98 MB (TK50 size).
> 
>   paul
> 

How do I set the tape size to 0?  I’d say that’s a stupid question, but I’ve 
had very little luck finding documentation on the options.  Though I won’t rule 
out that I might be blind. :-)

While looking for the answer to that, I may have found a better solution.  It 
looks like I can create a 50GB disk.  If I can do that, I can move my Alpha 
disks over to SIMH.  That would actually be my preference.  The two disks I’m 
the most concerned with are ODS-2.  The other two are ODS-5, and I think there 
are some filenames from OpenSource software that will have issues with ODS-2, 
but I can selectively move the data I want backed up to an ODS-2 disk.

The joke is, my 50GB disk only has about 8GB of data on it, one of the 36GB 
drives is the big one at about 26GB.

Zane


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Re: [Simh] VAX Tape Emulation?

[Dennis Boone]

 > Many common tape image tools as of two decades use 32-bit integers to
 > carry offsets around and will be limited to 4Gigabyte tape image
 > sizes.

As Mark pointed out, this is block size, not file size.  But it's also
really 31 bits, since in most variants of the format, the high bit means
that the count field indicates either some sort of error or physical end
of medium or similar.

De
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Re: [Simh] VAX Tape Emulation?

[Mark Pizzolato]

The simh (and other common formats) use 32bit values to indicate tape record 
sizes and other info about a record or file mark.  They don’t actually contain 
offset information.  As such, the limit on size is the limit on space to 
contain the tape image.

From: Tim Shoppa
Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2018 3:54 PM


Many common tape image tools as of two decades use 32-bit integers to carry 
offsets around and will be limited to 4Gigabyte tape image sizes.

I don't think this is a fundamental limit to the tape image formats used by 
SIMH, just a common limitation of the tape image tools you might find from 20 
years ago.

Tim.

On Wed, Jan 24, 2018 at 5:02 PM, Zane Healy 
mailto:heal...@avanthar.com>> wrote:
What type/size of tapes does the VAX emulation support?  I was looking through 
the doc’s and it wasn’t obvious to me.  Is there a size limit?

Thanks,
Zane



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Re: [Simh] VAX Tape Emulation?

[Larry Baker]

Zane,

You didn't say what kind of Alpha you have.  I just bought a used 72GB SCSI 
drive for our Alpha DS20E.  That's plenty big enough to hold many Backup Save 
Sets from your VAXes, I assume.  VAXes can backup over DECnet from Standalone 
Backup, you know.  Using SIMH, you don't even have to do that.  You can mount 
the boot disk for one VAX on another one to back it up over any network that 
your VAX can reach.  Or, you can replicate my DECnet-to-NFS gateway on your own 
ARM SBC (I use an old Marvell SheevaPlug) and access all your NFS servers from 
DECnet.

Larry Baker
US Geological Survey
650-329-5608
ba...@usgs.gov



> On 24 Jan 2018, at 3:53:39 PM, simh-requ...@trailing-edge.com wrote:
> 
> Message: 6
> Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2018 14:25:39 -0800
> From: Zane Healy mailto:heal...@avanthar.com>>
> To: Mark Pizzolato mailto:m...@infocomm.com>>
> Cc: simh mailto:simh@trailing-edge.com>>
> Subject: Re: [Simh] VAX Tape Emulation?
> Message-ID: <84e9bdeb-f78f-44b4-bc76-1773db558...@avanthar.com 
> >
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
> 
> 
>> On Jan 24, 2018, at 2:07 PM, Mark Pizzolato > > wrote:
>> 
>> On Wednesday, January 24, 2018 at 2:03 PM, Zane Healy wrote:
>>> What type/size of tapes does the VAX emulation support?  I was looking
>>> through the doc’s and it wasn’t obvious to me.  Is there a size limit?
>> 
>> How big is your disk?  :-)
>> 
>> Really, there is no actual limit on total tape size, since the data format 
>> is 
>> only concerned with tape records which are then processed sequentially.
> 
> And this is why I need to pay attention to when I ask questions.  So I can 
> give all the details.
> 
> Here is the story.  I have two emulated VAXen, clustered with my Alpha.  My 
> only physical tape drives are getting *old*, as are my tapes.  I’d like to 
> backup to a simulated tape drive on the one emulated VAX.  The largest drive 
> on my Alpha is 50GB.  I’d prefer not to have to span tapes. :-)
> 
> Zane



smime.p7s
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Re: [Simh] VAX Tape Emulation?

[Tim Shoppa]

Many common tape image tools as of two decades use 32-bit integers to carry
offsets around and will be limited to 4Gigabyte tape image sizes.

I don't think this is a fundamental limit to the tape image formats used by
SIMH, just a common limitation of the tape image tools you might find from
20 years ago.

Tim.

On Wed, Jan 24, 2018 at 5:02 PM, Zane Healy  wrote:

> What type/size of tapes does the VAX emulation support?  I was looking
> through the doc’s and it wasn’t obvious to me.  Is there a size limit?
>
> Thanks,
> Zane
>
>
>
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Re: [Simh] VAX Tape Emulation?

[Zane Healy]

> On Jan 24, 2018, at 2:07 PM, Mark Pizzolato  wrote:
> 
> On Wednesday, January 24, 2018 at 2:03 PM, Zane Healy wrote:
>> What type/size of tapes does the VAX emulation support?  I was looking
>> through the doc’s and it wasn’t obvious to me.  Is there a size limit?
> 
> How big is your disk?  :-)
> 
> Really, there is no actual limit on total tape size, since the data format is 
> only concerned with tape records which are then processed sequentially.

And this is why I need to pay attention to when I ask questions.  So I can give 
all the details.

Here is the story.  I have two emulated VAXen, clustered with my Alpha.  My 
only physical tape drives are getting *old*, as are my tapes.  I’d like to 
backup to a simulated tape drive on the one emulated VAX.  The largest drive on 
my Alpha is 50GB.  I’d prefer not to have to span tapes. :-)

Zane


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Re: [Simh] VAX Tape Emulation?

[Clem Cole]

Zane,

I'm not sure I follow your question.  Tape sizes are defined by the reel,
not the recording hardware.  Since the device is a vector (starting at
block 0) are conceptually unlimited (fixed by the number of bytes/blocks
available in the length of tape).   9-track mag tapes in 12" reels were
traditionally 2400 ft long.   3M managed to make a thinner tape and got the
tapes to 3600 ft.   The 6" reels were 600 ft and the 10" reels were 1200 ft
BTW.But the recording techniques (aka the tape densities) defined how
many bytes [NRZ - aka 800 bpi, PE - aka 1600 bpi, GRZ - aka 6250].   The
other issue is/was how big a 'block' you can write.   Anything more than
64k bytes could be problematic as the IEEE tape standards did not define
reliable ways to do that and on a VAX or PDP-11 that was traditionally the
DMA size limit anyway.

Anyway, with traditionally blocking, a 2400" tape @ 6250 you could get
about 120M of storage (~180M on 3600 " tapes) --  put another way, we used
assume that an RP06 could be backed up on 2.5 tapes.

Disks on the other hand are not a vector, but rather # of heads, #of
cylinders and the # of sectors in each cylinder.  Thus they have a more
fixed size.

Clem
ᐧ

On Wed, Jan 24, 2018 at 5:02 PM, Zane Healy  wrote:

> What type/size of tapes does the VAX emulation support?  I was looking
> through the doc’s and it wasn’t obvious to me.  Is there a size limit?
>
> Thanks,
> Zane
>
>
>
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ᐧ
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Re: [Simh] VAX Tape Emulation?

[Paul Koning]

> On Jan 24, 2018, at 5:07 PM, Mark Pizzolato  wrote:
> 
> On Wednesday, January 24, 2018 at 2:03 PM, Zane Healy wrote:
>> What type/size of tapes does the VAX emulation support?  I was looking
>> through the doc’s and it wasn’t obvious to me.  Is there a size limit?
> 
> How big is your disk?  :-)
> 
> Really, there is no actual limit on total tape size, since the data format is 
> only concerned with tape records which are then processed sequentially.

Then again, SIMH supports limiting the emulated tape size.  The SIMH VAX 
document shows that it uses this feature: the tape units can be set to a 
specific size limit, or 0 for unlimited.  The same is true for various other 
emulations; I see the PDP11 has the same sort of thing, and for example its 
TMSCP controller defaults to 98 MB (TK50 size).

paul

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Re: [Simh] VAX Tape Emulation?

[Mark Pizzolato]

On Wednesday, January 24, 2018 at 2:03 PM, Zane Healy wrote:
> What type/size of tapes does the VAX emulation support?  I was looking
> through the doc’s and it wasn’t obvious to me.  Is there a size limit?

How big is your disk?  :-)

Really, there is no actual limit on total tape size, since the data format is 
only concerned with tape records which are then processed sequentially.


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[Simh] VAX Tape Emulation?

[Zane Healy]

What type/size of tapes does the VAX emulation support?  I was looking through 
the doc’s and it wasn’t obvious to me.  Is there a size limit?

Thanks,
Zane



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Re: [Simh] 101 Basic Games for RSTS/E (was Re: PDP11 on Simh for public access)

[Tony Nicholson]

On Thu, Jan 25, 2018 at 5:17 AM, Bryan.e.davies 
wrote:

> Ok thanks for the verification. I'll download and unzip again.
>
> Attached pic is the PDP emulator on the VT100 at CCH.
>

Sorry about the mix-up with RSTS disk formats.  I knew it was different for
older versions.

I've just made a RSTS level 0.0 format RL01 disk image so you can use this
on older versions of RSTS/E (verified and written using RSTS/E V7.0-07).
You can get a zip file containing this at

https://drive.google.com/file/d/15iRczp1kYITHuH6zYNImtZgtguw_g66V/view?usp=sharing

and I also added it (rl01-games-rsts0-0.dsk) to the original zip file that
I shared.

If anyone needs this on an RK05 image to run under older versions of RSTS/E
(like V4B or V06C) - e-mail me privately (or use the DECtape image which I
know also works)!

And to Mark Abene - yes I think the book from bitsavers was an early
version of the book by Dave Ahl - before he left DEC to start Creative
Computing magazine.

Tony
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Re: [Simh] 101 Basic Games for RSTS/E (was Re: PDP11 on Simh for public access)

[Paul Koning]

> On Jan 24, 2018, at 11:40 AM, Bryan Davies  wrote:
> 
> Very many thanks for this Tony.   It should be exactly what I need.
> 
> Unfortunately I've downloaded the RL zip and attached it in Simh but RSTS 
> won't mount it.It gives an 'Offline or Write Locked? error.   I've also 
> tried the Writeenable switch but without success.   I'll continue to 
> investigate but I'm posting here in case anyone else has any suggestions.

On V10.1, right?  I just tried it and it worked fine.  Remember that you need 
the pack ID (which is "games") to mount the disk, unless you use the /override 
switch to say "mount it without pack ID check".  Here's a test run:

pkoning:101-BASIC-Computer-Games pkoning$ ~/Documents/svn/flx/flx
flx> disk rl01-games.dsk 
flx> ident
RSTS disk on rl01-games.dsk
   Drive type: dl (rl01)
   Device clustersize: 1
   Device size:10220
   Device geometry:256 / 2 / 20
   Pack ID:games
   Pack clustersize:   1
   Revision level: 1.2
   Last mount date:24-Jan-2018
   Last mount time:09:49 AM
   Pack flags: Private/system DLW
flx> ls

[0,1]
badb.sys  satt.sys

[100,100]
animal.bas  civilw.bas  golf.basking.basrocket.bas  stock.bas 
...


pkoning:e11 pkoning$ pdp11 simu.ini 

PDP-11 simulator V4.0-0 Betagit commit id: d3b6018d
sim> att rl1 -re ../../Downloads/101-BASIC-Computer-Games/rl01-games.dsk 
RL: unit is read only
sim> bo rq
?
??

RSTS P10.1-L V101XM (DU0) INIT V10.1-0L


Today's date? 24-JAN-18

Current time? 12:6


Start timesharing?  NO 


Option:  HA LI

  Name  Address Vector  Comments
  TT0:   177560   060   
  RL0:   174400   160   Units: 0(RL01) 1(RL01)
  RM0:   177440   210   Units: 0(RK06) 1(RK06) 2(RK06) 3(RK06) 4(RK06) 5(RK06)
   6(RK06) 7(RK06)
  RU0:   172150  P340   RQDX3   Units: 0(RA82) 1(RA82) 2(RD54) 3(RX50)
  MU0:   174500  P344   TK50Units: 0(TK50) 1(TK50) 2(TK50) 3(TK50)
  TU0:   172440   224   BAE=+034, Units: 0(TE16 @TM03 #0) 1(TE16 @TM03 #0) 
  TC0:   177340   214
  LP0:   177514   200
  DZ0:   160100   300   Sub-lines: 8
  DZ1:   160110   310   Sub-lines: 8
  DZ2:   160120   320   Sub-lines: 8
  DZ3:   160130   330   Sub-lines: 8
  XE0:   174510   120   DELUA Address: 08-00-2B-CC-DD-EE

  KW11L  177546   100
  SR 177570
  DR 177570

  Hertz = 60.

  Other: FPU, SL, 22-Bit, Data space, Cache w/address, System ID = 4660


Option:  

24-Jan-18 12:06 PM

2 devices disabled

Proceed with system startup?  

 Beginning RSTS/E system startup...
24-Jan-18 12:06 PM   Installing monitor overlays
24-Jan-18 12:06 PM   Mounting disks
??Disk pack mount error
?Pack-id labels don't match
?Pack-id labels don't match
...

RSTS P10.1-L 24-Jan-18 12:06 PM
User: 1,211
Last interactive login on 04-Jan-02, 09:53 PM at KB0:
Last non-interactive login on 15-Aug-16, 01:51 PM


$ show disk

Disk Structure:
Dsk  OpenSize  FreeClu   Err Name  Level  Comments
DU021 100  941312  94%  16 0 V101   1.2   Pub, DLW
DU1 0 100  720512  72%  16 0 D  1.2   Pri, DLW
$ mount /over dl1
%Device write protected
$ show disk

Disk Structure:
Dsk  OpenSize  FreeClu   Err Name  Level  Comments
DL1 0   102208551  83%   1 0 GAMES  1.2   Pri, R-O, DLW
DU021 100  941312  94%  16 0 V101   1.2   Pub, DLW
DU1 0 100  720512  72%  16 0 D  1.2   Pri, DLW

$ dir dl1:[100,100]

 Name .TypSizeProt Name .TypSizeProtDL1:[100,100]
GAMES .BAS   9   < 40>BLKJAC.ORG  17   < 40>
BOMBER.ORG   6   < 40>BOUNCE.BAS   3   < 40>
BOXING.BAS   8   < 40>BUG   .BAS  13   < 40>
CHIEF .BAS   4   < 40>CHOMP .BAS   6   < 40>
CIVILW.ORG  16   < 40>CRAPS .BAS   6   < 40>
CUBE  .ORG   9   < 40>DIAMND.BAS   2   < 40>
FLPFOP.ORG   5   < 40>FOOTBL.BAS  17   < 40>
FURS  .BAS  12   < 40>GOLF  .ORG  13   < 40>
GUESS .ORG   2   < 40>GUNNER.BAS   4   < 40>
HANG  .ORG   7   < 40>HIQ   .BAS   8   < 40>
HMRABI.BAS   9   < 40>HOCKEY.BAS  12   < 40>
HURKLE.BAS   3   < 40>KING  .BAS  19   < 40>
LIFE  .BAS   4   < 40>LITQZ .BAS   4   < 40>
MATHDI.BAS   4   < 40>MUGWMP.BAS   4   < 40>
NIM   .BAS   9   < 40>HORSES.ORG   7   < 40>
POET  .BAS   3   < 40>POKER .ORG  15   < 40>
ROCKET.ORG   7   < 40>ROCKT1.BAS   6   < 40>
SALVO .ORG  13   < 40>SNOOPY.BAS   7   < 40>
STARS .BAS   4   < 40>STOCK .BAS  15   < 40>
TARGET.BAS   5   < 40>3DPLOT.BAS   1   < 40>
TOWER .BAS   8   < 40>TRAP  .BAS   3   < 40>
23MTCH.BAS   3   < 40>UGLY  .BAS   4   < 40>
BAGLES.BAS   5   < 40>BULEYE.BAS   3   < 40>
MADLIB.BAS  11   < 40>1CHECK.BAS   5   < 40>
REVRSE.BAS   5   < 40>COMPIL.1ST  64   < 40>
BLKJAC.BAS  17   < 40>BOMBER.BAS   6   

Re: [Simh] 101 Basic Games for RSTS/E (was Re: PDP11 on Simh for public access)

[Bryan Davies]

Very many thanks for this Tony.   It should be exactly what I need.

Unfortunately I've downloaded the RL zip and attached it in Simh but RSTS
won't mount it.It gives an 'Offline or Write Locked? error.   I've also
tried the Writeenable switch but without success.   I'll continue to
investigate but I'm posting here in case anyone else has any suggestions.



On 24 January 2018 at 00:00, Tony Nicholson 
wrote:

> On Tue, Jan 23, 2018 at 11:37 PM, Bryan Davies 
> wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
> I just need to get it all in a nice neat box, connect up he VT100, and
>> download some games and things for the guests to use.
>>
>>
> Bryan (and all).
>
> I first encountered RSTS/E in 1975 on a PDP-11/45 when I was a student
> when I discovered a book "101 Basic Computer Games" with an accompanying
> DECtape.
>
> Recently I tracked down a copy of the book in PDF format and an image of
> the DECtape (that had to be fixed-up so that it was readable) on bitsavers .
>
> The book is at -
>
> http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/_Books/101_BASIC_Computer_Games_Mar75.pdf
>
> I now have this running on RSTS/E V10.1 and RSTS V06C-03 under SIMH -
> after some minor edits to fix changes to the Basic-Plus source file syntax
> (spaces between keywords etc).
>
> I've zipped-up the fixed DECtape image (DOS format) and an RL01 RSTS level
> 1.2 format disk image (label=GAMES) that you can copy the games from either
> and run them!
>
> The RL01 disk image is easiest (since DECtape support requires some
> fiddling and correct pdp11 unibus 18-bit model selection).
>
> In your SIMH .ini file (assuming you have sysgen'ed some RL type disks)
> you can -
>set rl enable
>set rl0 rl01
>att rl0 rl01-games.dsk
>
> Then once RSTS/E is up as a privileged user just "MOUNT DL0: GAMES" and
> look in DL0:[100,100]
>
> The zip file is https://drive.google.com/file/d/
> 1IgZkafQABxWUXeuEkeq1GjkBe3sF2Zgx/view?usp=sharing
>
> Tony
>
>
>
>
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Re: [Simh] 101 Basic Games for RSTS/E (was Re: PDP11 on Simh for public access)

[Paul Koning]

> On Jan 23, 2018, at 7:00 PM, Tony Nicholson  
> wrote:
> 
> ...
> I've zipped-up the fixed DECtape image (DOS format) and an RL01 RSTS level 
> 1.2 format disk image (label=GAMES) that you can copy the games from either 
> and run them!

Note that a 1.2 format disk requires a sufficiently recent RSTS to use it.  
"flx" will produce disks in any of the three formats, though.  For example, you 
need level 0 if you want RSTS 7 or older to make sense of the bits.

paul

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