Re: [Simh] Way out idea for simh
Just to add some info to the discussion. This sounds like a nice idea,however it will be very difficult to implement on some of the oldermachines that SimH supports. For example the B5500 does not have the concept of a mountable pack.Drives could be attached, but they were a permanent attachment. For theIbm 7000 line, most did not support disk. The disk drive that wassupported by many of the machines was a large box that you could notput drives into (IBM 1301/2301). Also these machines all worked in BCD(6 bit), not Ascii. I am also not sure when TOPS10 got support formounting foreign file systems. I don't believe that 6.03 or 5.03support this idea. Tapes, paper tapes, and punch cards are probably the most universalformat. Also a Paper tape reader is pretty easy to implement, it mightbe possible to put some kind of header onto the tape to indicate thename of the file. But take a look at how much trouble Kermit does tohandle all the various systems. Rich--- Original Message ---On 4/20/2016 12:14 PM Paul Koning wrote:> On Apr 20, 2016, at 12:06 PM, Sampsa Laine wrote:> > >> On 20 Apr 2016, at 19:02, Paul Koning wrote:>> >>> >> >> I don't know LIF, but the RT-11 file system is certainly simple.>> >> There are a couple of complications. First, you'd have to write a file access utility for each guest OS. Given a simple enough file system that isn't necessarily a huge burden. Then again, what might be simple, requiringly only modest code, on one machine might be a major burden on another simply because it has much less memory.>> > > For DEC stuff, Files-11 (level 2?) would probably work across most of the OSes.No, it would work for VMS, and level 1 at least would work for RSX, but neither RSTS nor RT11 understand it. And it's a complex file system, more so than the RSTS one and vastly more than RT11. It does more, of course, but if you're looking for something that can easily be ported to another system, this won't do.I took the proposal to mean: find a simple OS for which you can easily implement an application to handle it on most operating systems. So think something handled by an application like PDP-10 FLX (or RT-11 FLX), not a file system with native support.> ...>> >> Paper tape is yet a third option, which is presumably unlabeled but often transparent. (Not always, the 1620 comes to mind as a notorious example of a machine that could read only coded tape with punches conforming to the code it expects.)> > That’s a good point but doesn’t make organising files trivial.One key question is how important it is to transfer a bunch of files all at once. Is it sufficient to send one file at a time? With scripting, that may not be all that problematic. paul___Simh mailing listSimh@trailing-edge.comhttp://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh==Richard Cornwellsky...@sky-visions.comhttp://sky-visions.com== ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] Way out idea for simh
I think you are missing something. For the B5500 the drives are all one file system. If you add a drive, it becomes part of the file system. Also there is no way to access the drives in a raw way. For the I7000 series there is no concept of a file system to speak of. Similar for CDC 6600 for anything prior to Scope 3.4, the drives are all one big file system. Rich--- Original Message --- On 4/20/2016 1:20 PM Ken Cornetet wrote:You don’t need the notion of mountable disk. The disk would appear attached to the guest OS 100% of the time. The guest doesn’t need to be able to mount foreign file systems. The guest OS only considers that block device as a seekable collection of blocks. All file movement between the LIF block device and the OS’s native file system would be by a userland utility. True, this utility would have to be developed for every guest OS running under simh, but if the file system was simple enough, the code would be trivial. From: Simh [mailto:simh-boun...@trailing-edge.com] On Behalf Of sky...@sky-visions.com Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2016 1:04 PM To: paulkon...@comcast.net; sam...@mac.com Cc: simh@trailing-edge.com Subject: Re: [Simh] Way out idea for simh Just to add some info to the discussion. This sounds like a nice idea, however it will be very difficult to implement on some of the older machines that SimH supports. For example the B5500 does not have the concept of a mountable pack. Drives could be attached, but they were a permanent attachment. For the Ibm 7000 line, most did not suppo rt disk. The disk drive that was supported by many of the machines was a large box that you could not put drives into (IBM 1301/2301). Also these machines all worked in BCD (6 bit), not Ascii. I am also not sure when TOPS10 got support for mounting foreign file systems. I don't believe that 6.03 or 5.03 support this idea.Tapes, paper tapes, and punch cards are probably the most universal format. Also a Paper tape reader is pretty easy to implement, it might be possible to put some kind of header onto the tape to indicate the name of the file. But take a look at how much trouble Kermit does to handle all the various systems. Rich --- Original Message --- On 4/20/2016 12:14 PM Paul Koning wrote: > On Apr 20, 2016, at 12:06 PM, Sampsa Laine wrote: > > >> On 20 Apr 2016, at 19:02, Paul Koning wrote: >> >>> >> >> I don't know LIF, but the RT-11 file system is certainly simple. >> >> There are a couple of complications. First, you'd have to write a file access utility for each guest OS. Given a simple enough file system that isn't necessarily a huge burden. Then again, what might be simple, requiringly only modest code, on one machine might be a major burden on another simply because it has much less memory. >> > > For DEC stuff, Files-11 (level 2?) would probably work across most of the OSes.No, it would work for VMS, and level 1 at least would work for RSX, but neither RSTS nor RT11 understand it. And it's a complex file system, more so than the RSTS one and vastly more than RT11. It does more, of course, but if you're looking for something that can easily be ported to another system, this won't do.I took the proposal to mean: find a simple OS for which you can easily implement an application to handle it on most operating systems. So think something handled by an application like PDP-10 FLX (or RT-11 FLX), not a file system with native support.> ... >> >> Paper tape is yet a third option, which is presumably unlabeled but often transparent. (Not always, the 1620 comes to mind as a notorious example of a machine that could read only coded tape with punches conforming to the code it expects.) > > That’s a good point but doesn’t make organising files trivial.One key question is how important it is to transfer a bunch of files all at once. Is it sufficient to send one file at a time? With scripting, that may not be all that problematic.paul ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh == Richard Cornwell sky...@sky-visions.com http://sky-visions.com == == Richard Cornwell sky...@sky-visions.com http://sky-visions.com == ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] Way out idea for simh
OS's don't support foreign file systems. What they do is provide the ability to access a drive that does not have what they believe to be a valid file system. You need a utility to do this. One of the problems is that some systems do not have either the concept of a mountable pack, or the ability to access a drive at the lowest level. To them if they see a drive they will make it part of the existing filesystem. I'm thinking of the B5500 under MCP, Tops10, Scope 3.0-2, Ibm 70xx. Tape drives also come in many formats, generally they look like a linear stream of characters (6 or 8 bits), broken up into chunks. Most machines that deal with tapes can talk deal with raw tapes.--- Original Message ---On 4/20/2016 2:48 PM Ken Cornetet wrote:Again, you don't need OS support for foreign file systems, you just need to be able to read the disk blocks in a raw mode.-Original Message-From: S imh [mailto:simh-boun...@trailing-edge.com] On Behalf Of Rich AldersonSent: Wednesday, April 20, 2016 2:31 PMTo: simh@trailing-edge.comSubject: Re: [Simh] Way out idea for simh> Date: Wed, 20 Apr 2016 17:04:18 +> From: sky...@sky-visions.com> For example the B5500 does not have the concept of a mountable pack.> Drives could be attached, but they were a permanent attachment. For > the Ibm 7000 line, most did not support disk. The disk drive that was > supported by many of the machines was a large box that you could not > put drives into (IBM 1301/2301). Also these machines all worked in BCD> (6 bit), not Ascii.> I am also not sure when TOPS10 got support for mounting foreign file > systems. I don't believe that 6.03 or 5.03 support this idea.As of 7.05 (the very last maintenance release, from 1990) it still hadn't.I work with it daily.Rich ___Simh mailing listSimh@trailing-edge.comhttp://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh___Simh mailing listSimh@trailing-edge.comhttp://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh==Richard Cornwellsky...@sky-visions.comhttp://sky-visions.com== ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] Way out idea for simh
That is what I meant by support. However not all OS's allow you to have a drive that is not part of the file system. Some OS's allow you to gain access to a drive, many don't. Some like IBSYS don't even have the concept of a file system. For CDC COS and Scope the disk basically was a tape image. The OS kept the directory in core. At boot in case of Scope it determined the available tracks by scanning the disk. COS did not have the concept of a disk boot. Every boot reloaded the system. B5500 MCP also operated similar to Scope.--- Original Message ---On 4/20/2016 3:14 PM Paul Koning wrote:> On Apr 20, 2016, at 3:08 PM, sky...@sky-visions.com wrote:> > OS's don't support foreign file systems. What they do is provide the ability to access a drive that does not have what they believe to be a valid file system. Not necessarily. RSTS does in the lates t versions, but not in early versions. For example, RSTS V4A has no raw disk API, and gives you no access to any disk except via the RSTS file system. The same goes for some other operating systems; I don't know of raw disk access on CDC NOS either, for example. (Well, not unless you write a PPU program; if you don't mind doing that, the job is easy.) paul==Richard Cornwellsky...@sky-visions.comhttp://sky-visions.com== ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] Operating Systems with Sources
OS/3 from Oregon State for the CDC 24 bit machines should be up. I have Where is this? I would be interested in doing a sim for the CDC 3300. Is there sufficient software for this machine to make it worth while?Don't know of any Exec sources around for the early 110x's If you find anything keep me posted... I would love to do a Univac 110x sim.SEL 32 bit Same here.oh.. and MULTICS (big, and in PL/I) I forgot about Multics.___Simh mailing listSimh@trailing-edge.comhttp://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh==Richard Cornwellsky...@sky-visions.comhttp://sky-visions.com == ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
Re: [Simh] Operating Systems with Sources
Hi Al,> Where is this? I would be interested in doing a sim for the CDC 3300. Is there sufficient software for this machine to> make it worth while?> I think so. Let me see what I have and try to get the listings scanned. Please do. I will take the time to transcibe them. Right now I am trying to patch Burroughs MCP XV to make it into XVI. I also have TOPS 10 1.4 and 4.5 transcribed, but am still cleaning up typos in them. My CTSS stuff is on my github account, I am considering adding in my IBM7090 software collection as well. > Timesharing systems are always fun to have running.>I wonder how things are going with getting 940 timesharing running, haven't heard any more>status in a while Neither have I. > SEL 32 bit> > Same here.>there is a simulator. someone sent a large pile of stuff and I've not had time to get it on line. Would be interesting. I admined a Gould Concept 32 back in the late 80's always like the archetiture. Rich==Richard Cornwellsky...@sky-visions.comhttp://sky-visions.com== ___ Simh mailing list Simh@trailing-edge.com http://mailman.trailing-edge.com/mailman/listinfo/simh
