Re: [Simh] GOLD Keys and such

2015-12-21 Thread Christian Gauger-Cosgrove 
On 21 December 2015 at 02:14,   wrote:
> Even for the mid 1970s MVS 3.8 OS IBM placed in the public domain nobody
> uses anything but 3278s except maybe for console logging (not as a general
> console). The printing terminals were useful for OS/360 console loggers
> but few Hercules users run OS/360. Bottom line and for everything else when
> you're using a terminal with MVS it's a 3278 and needs a tn3270 client if
> you are not direct attached. tn3270 covers 100% of normal use cases for MVS
> terminals except if you insist on using an optional printing console. You
> certainly don't need one.
>
The printing terminals (1052-7 or 3215; your choice) are required if
you do a sysgen from the starter system. Since the starter system is
*not* built with support for 3270 type consoles. Also, while I haven't
used it, I'm pretty sure the "Hercules Automatic Operator" scripting
necessitates using a printing console in the "-C" mode (so the script
can see the output and then respond automatically). Neither the 3215
or 1052 devices are used for TSO, however the 2703+TELE2 emulation may
be used for TSO.

So yes, printing consoles certainly aren't necessary to operation of a
fully set up MVS 3.8J system, however for the MVS 3.7 "starter" system
needed to actually sysgen 3.8 they are required (and they are required
for HAO if I recall correctly).


> Are you saying Putty's telnet doesn't support the printing terminals
> Hercules supports? Because if that is not what you are saying then we seem
> to be going around in circles. Telnet clearly won't work for a normal IBM
> terminal.
>
There is a bug in telnet negotiations in Hercules, that causes PuTTY
to be unable to connect to Hercules.


On 21 December 2015 at 02:31,   wrote:
> We should clarify the way you connect to Hercules _emulating_ those devices
> is telnet. Telnet does not work with real IBM devices on real IBM mainframe
> hardware.
>
Yes, correct. Hercules provides two methods of connecting to it
depending on the kind of device being emulated. For 327x devices you
*must* use a tn3270 client (like x3270). For 1052-7, 3215, or 2703
with TELE2 devices you *must* use telnet.

In the real world of IBM hardware you cannot telnet into the
mainframe; nor could one normally connect to the mainframe via a
"normal" terminal like a VT-100, or the like. There are some rare
exceptions, but those don't count.



So, just to recap this whole thing:
The Hercules (IBM System/370 and up) emulator provides emulation of
the following types of console/terminal which are reachable by the
following protocols:
* IBM 327x --- Local, non-SNA, 3270 device; connects via tn3270
* IBM 1052-7 --- Console printer-keyboard device; connects via telnet
* IBM 3215 --- Console printer-keyboard device; connects via telnet
* IBM 2703 with TELE2 control --- Dial-in TWX (e.g. Teletype Model 33,
or Teletype Model 35) remote line; connects via telnet

PuTTY's telnet client cannot connect to Hercules, as there is a bug in
telnet negotiations in the Hercules console.c code that makes it
non-RFC compliant.

One can get around the need for a telnet connection to either 1052 or
3215 devices by specifying a 1052-C or 3215-C; which still emulate the
device mentioned but redirect the console output to the Hercules
command line (and take input from said command line as well).


Anyway this has gone way past the point of being related to SIMH; and
in reality is a non-issue. A quick "TL;DR" as the internet neologism
would be: Hercules has a telnet negotiation bug that means PuTTY can't
connect to it.

Cheers,
Christian
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Re: [Simh] GOLD Keys and such

2015-12-20 Thread Will Senn 



On 12/19/15 3:44 PM, Random832 wrote:

Will Senn  writes:


I am trying to use xterm, now that I have terminal behaving
better. But, the keymapping is really weird: pressing the delete key
displays ^H, pressing CTRL-DELETE, effectively backspaces, and
pressing fn-F5, which in Terminal is mapped to ESC-O-w, displays 5~.
Do you know where xterm is getting its key mapping from? If it's a
file, do you know of a VT100 file of mappings? I have a feeling that
the default mapping is way off.

Xterm's mappings are bult in. F5 and beyond are based on the
VT220, since there were no equivalent keys on a real VT100.  You
would need to use a numeric keypad to get keys like ESC-O-w from
the default mappings. You can control the keys in ~/.Xdefaults,
though. See the answer to this question on Stack Overflow:
http://stackoverflow.com/questions/11840763/

Delete and Backspace is an issue with a long history, and can be
controlled through a separate option "backarrowKeyIsErase".



As for the delete-backspace issue, I appreciate the tip. Anne Baretta 
did a really good write up on how to get consistent behavior in linux 
for these miscreant keys:


http://www.ibb.net/~anne/keyboard/keyboard.html

Thanks,

Will

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Re: [Simh] GOLD Keys and such

2015-12-20 Thread lists 
On Sun, 20 Dec 2015 14:26:20 -0500
Christian Gauger-Cosgrove  wrote:

> However, in the IBM mainframe world, there were the "typewriter"
> terminals, like the 1052-7 and 3215. Also, let's not forget the IBM
> 2703 Communications Control unit; which had the option of using the
> IBM Telegraph Terminal Control Type II; which provides a way for Model
> 33 and Model 35 TWX terminals to connect to a mainframe. Hercules
> emulates all of those (the 1052-7, 3215, and 2703 with TELE2); the way
> to connect to those are via "plain" telnet.

We should clarify the way you connect to Hercules _emulating_ those devices
is telnet. Telnet does not work with real IBM devices on real IBM mainframe
hardware.

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Re: [Simh] GOLD Keys and such

2015-12-20 Thread Christian Gauger-Cosgrove 
On 20 December 2015 at 01:28,   wrote:
> That is because IBM doesn't use telnet or serial terminals. They use the
> 3270 series terminals and the tn3270 protocol is used by terminal emulators.
Yes and no. Yes, the majority of time you use a tn3270 emulator to
pretend to be a 3278 or 3279 of some sort; as either an operator
console, or as a TSO terminal.

However, in the IBM mainframe world, there were the "typewriter"
terminals, like the 1052-7 and 3215. Also, let's not forget the IBM
2703 Communications Control unit; which had the option of using the
IBM Telegraph Terminal Control Type II; which provides a way for Model
33 and Model 35 TWX terminals to connect to a mainframe. Hercules
emulates all of those (the 1052-7, 3215, and 2703 with TELE2); the way
to connect to those are via "plain" telnet.

The 1052-7 and 3215 emulations are there for being console terminals
(and you can specify 1052-C or 3215-C to have those consoles appear in
the Hercules interface itself); while the 2703 with TELE2 is
relatively new and let's you connect to TSO.


> There are other 3270 emulators for Windows but as far as I know they are
> all proprietary and sell for money.
>
Yup, and that's why I already use x3270; which is actually a pretty
nice emulator.


Bringing this conversation back to the world of SIMH (sorta). From IBM
manual GC23-0002-0, while doing an RMT generation for JES2, you can
have the RMT generation process produce object decks for IBM 1130 and
IBM System/3 systems that make them operate as BSC connected RJE
stations. This seems like a pretty interesting application for SIMH.
It would require the implementation of the BSCA device for the
System/3, in a way that would compatibly operate with the Hercules
2703 BSC emulation, and similar creation of a sync modem device on the
1130 simulator.

The required hardware for the remote terminal program is:
IBM System/3 Model 10 with the following selectable options:
 * 1442 Card Read Punch
 * 5203 Printer
 * 5424 Multi-Function Card Unit
 * 5471 Printer-Keyboard
 * 5475 Data Entry Keyboard

IBM 1130 System with the following selectable options:
 * 1132 Printer
 * 1403 Printer
 * 1442 Card Read Punch
 * 1442 Card Punch
 * 2501 Card Reader
 * Standard Printer-Keyboard

Both simulators already support the hardware needed, except the
bisynch adapters.


Cheers,
Christian
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STCKON08DS0
Contact information available upon request.
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Re: [Simh] GOLD Keys and such

2015-12-19 Thread Will Senn 



On 12/19/15 3:01 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote:

On 2015-12-19 21:57, Will Senn wrote:



On 12/19/15 1:42 PM, Random832 wrote:

Either's VT100 emulation should be acceptable, though


Latest update, taking bits and pieces from folks comments...

I started Terminal and set the terminal variable to VT100 then started a
new bash:
TERM=vt100 exec bash


I hope you understand that the TERM environment variable in Unix don't 
actually do anything, except inform running programs that they should 
try to work the terminal using VT100 control sequences.
Yup. I had read this, but now I understand it even better. It's an 
environment variable only and therefore only meaningful to the programs 
looking for it. I have no idea if simh cares about it and after you 
commented, I tried it without the environment variable and sure enough, 
it works fine. So, really, the only thing needed is the keymapping for 
ESC-O-w


RT-11 do not know, nor care, about a Unix environment variable. So 
that thing is actually totally meaningless here. :-)


Indeed.



started the rt-11 simulation
pdp11 boot.ini

then tried ked somefile

I was able to use fn-F1 as the Gold Key, but I couldn't figure out how
to get Command. I then hooked up a regular mac keyboard to the laptop
(it has a numeric keypad) and was able to get both fn-F1 and numeric
keypad 7 to work as GOLD-COMMAND. This was encouraging. I went back to
the laptop keyboard and was able to use fn-F1 as GOLD and then ESC-O-w
as command, remembering y'alls advice. This was workable, but not ideal.
So, I took a look at the keyboard tab in Terminal preferences and was
able to assign ESC-o-w to a key and voila, rational keyboard :).

Thanks for all of the tips and pointers. I am pretty pleased with the
way things are working now and have a much greater level of
understanding of how to figure these sorts of issues out going forward.
I am glad that it works with a regular terminal because copy and paste
and such in the host is much simpler than with xterm or another 
emulator.


Excellent. More knowledge is always useful.

Johnny



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Re: [Simh] GOLD Keys and such

2015-12-19 Thread Clem Cole 
Check out:   http://invisible-island.net/xterm/xterm.faq.html

There is a really good description of the keymapping process for xterm as
well as tools to set the things for you.
As Johnny says - be careful many, many terminal emulators are close to
VT-100 but not the same.  More over, VT-100 != ANSI  a often miss
understood concept.

DEC developed the VT-100 during the ANSI terminal sequence project and
released it before the spec was made final.  There are a number of
difference and they will bite you.   If you want a VT-100 (which for VMS et
al, you do), then you want a true DEC emulation.

That said, if you are running UNIX and want a real ANSI implementation, the
Wyse-60 was probably the truest implementation of the ANSI spec I ran into
back in the day (although it was not full color).  I believe MacWise will
emulate the Wyse-60.   Truth be told I have have one (and miss it's
keyboard).  The console for my Masscomp MC-500 ;-)

Clem

On Sat, Dec 19, 2015 at 4:33 PM, Will Senn  wrote:

>
>
> On 12/19/15 2:58 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
>
>>
>> As for double width and double height, xterm does it just fine. In fact,
>> xterm is the only implementation that I don't know of any incompatibilities
>> in.
>>
>> Johnny
>>
>> Johnny,
>
> I am trying to use xterm, now that I have terminal behaving better. But,
> the keymapping is really weird: pressing the delete key displays ^H,
> pressing CTRL-DELETE, effectively backspaces, and pressing fn-F5, which in
> Terminal is mapped to ESC-O-w, displays 5~.  Do you know where xterm is
> getting its key mapping from? If it's a file, do you know of a VT100 file
> of mappings? I have a feeling that the default mapping is way off.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Will
>
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Re: [Simh] GOLD Keys and such

2015-12-19 Thread Random832 
Johnny Billquist  writes:
>> On another note, it seems like the Mac Terminal ought to work as a
>> VT100, or even VT52, since they are in the avanced section of the
>> properties list, but I can't figure out how to make them behave reasonably.
>
> In which way are they not behaving "properly"?

In my own investigation, Terminal.app's VT52 mode does not cause the
keyboard special keys to send VT52 escape sequences. iTerm2, for its
part, does not support VT52 mode at all, and does not send local-mode
escape sequences (e.g. ESC [A) from the arrow keys.

Either's VT100 emulation should be acceptable, though.

Its UI may be clunky or dated, but as far as emulation capabilities go,
xterm really is the cadillac of VT100 emulators.

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Re: [Simh] GOLD Keys and such

2015-12-19 Thread Johnny Billquist 

On 2015-12-19 22:33, Will Senn wrote:



On 12/19/15 2:58 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote:


As for double width and double height, xterm does it just fine. In
fact, xterm is the only implementation that I don't know of any
incompatibilities in.

Johnny


Johnny,

I am trying to use xterm, now that I have terminal behaving better. But,
the keymapping is really weird: pressing the delete key displays ^H,
pressing CTRL-DELETE, effectively backspaces, and pressing fn-F5, which
in Terminal is mapped to ESC-O-w, displays 5~.  Do you know where xterm
is getting its key mapping from? If it's a file, do you know of a VT100
file of mappings? I have a feeling that the default mapping is way off.


Ah. xterm have lots of knobs, but it's not always so easy to figure them 
all out.


The delete thing, for example, can work in several ways. If you press 
control and the left mouse button, you should get a menu where you can 
deselect "Delete is DEL". I suspect you have that selected right now.


As for keyboard behavior, you have several parts to it. One is that 
xterm can also "emulate" other keyboard than DEC ones. See that menu 
mentioned above again.
Second, the numeric keyboard on a VT100 can actually send different 
codes, depending on mode. The computer can send specific escape 
sequences to change the number keypad into and out of application mode. 
And depending on that, the keys send different stuff. If you press 
controler and the middle mouse button, you'll find another menu, where 
you can manually turn on and off application keypad, as well as 
application cursor keys.


The man-page for xterm is really long, but read it through once or 
twice, and you'll find all you need in there.


The things I mentioned in the menus are also available as command line 
switches, and also as X resources.


Johnny


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Re: [Simh] GOLD Keys and such

2015-12-19 Thread lists 
On Sat, 19 Dec 2015 15:44:26 -0500
Christian Gauger-Cosgrove  wrote:

> On 19 December 2015 at 14:42, Random832  wrote:
> > Its UI may be clunky or dated, but as far as emulation capabilities go,
> > xterm really is the cadillac of VT100 emulators.
> >
> Just would like to state that in Windows-land PuTTY does an excellent
> job of emulating the VT-100; even doing the dual-wide and dual-height
> characters (which I don't think I've seen done in others before... at
> least other emulators in Windows).
> 
> The one and only problem I've found with PuTTY is that for some reason
> it's telnet is not compatible with the Hercules (IBM System/370 and up
> mainframe emulator; not SIMH project) emulator.

That is because IBM doesn't use telnet or serial terminals. They use the
3270 series terminals and the tn3270 protocol is used by terminal emulators.
There is an excellent, free and open source tn3270 emulator that was
originally developed by Sun and is currently maintained.

Look at http://x3270.bgp.nu/

It runs on Windows, Linux, Solaris, and I would suspect most UNIX-like
systems.

There are other 3270 emulators for Windows but as far as I know they are
all proprietary and sell for money.

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Re: [Simh] GOLD Keys and such

2015-12-19 Thread Will Senn 



On 12/18/15 7:57 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote:


GOLD and COMMAND on the other hand are specific keys on DEC terminals, 
that both sent specific sequences of characters when pressed. As such, 
this is a bit more complicated. You could of course just send those 
sequence of characters yourself, but it might be non-trivial to 
remember the exact sequence, and there might also be timeouts in some 
software that could defeat you if you try typing them in by hand.
Also, different DEC terminals might have sent different sequences for 
those keys, so the exact sequence might depend on what terminal you 
appear to have.


Johnny,

I am now using MacWise in VT100 mode and have figured out how to get 
GOLD and COMMAND to work (mapped {ESC O P to PF1 and {ESC O w to PF7 in 
MacWise). However, I'm still wrapping my head around what is happening 
as a result with respect to the keycodes. You explanation around 
timeouts is interesting and helpful. I have been reading the VT101 User 
Manual and that too, is helpful, although, there are a whole lot of 
codes and it would seem that I only need to be concerned with a few.


Let me ask you this, if I need to send a form feed or a line feed or 
another ascii character that is not given a direct representation (or 
the correct representation) by my keyboard, is there a mechanism to send 
the keycode directly? For example, linefeed is ASCII decimal 10. Is 
there an escape sequence that is equivalent to sending 10 across (maybe 
something along the lines of ESC [ 1 0 or something)?


On another note, it seems like the Mac Terminal ought to work as a 
VT100, or even VT52, since they are in the avanced section of the 
properties list, but I can't figure out how to make them behave reasonably.


Thanks,

Will
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Re: [Simh] GOLD Keys and such

2015-12-18 Thread Johnny Billquist 

On 2015-12-19 01:21, Will Senn wrote:

All,

In working with the simulator and ancient OSes (in this case, RT-11XM
5.3), I am coming across key-combinations that are beyond my ken, such
as GOLD-COMMAND and Line-Feed. I think I may be able to figure something
out for line-feed (CTRL-J, maybe?), but I have no idea how to generate a
GOLD-COMMAND keypress. Is there a simple solution, or a known standard
way to make another key (say F5) serve as the GOLD-COMMAND key?


Uh, first of all you need to understand what ASCII is. Linefeed is an 
ASCII character with a decimal value of 10.
The most common method of generating a linefeed on a terminal keyboard 
is by pressing control+J, but some terminals (such as a VT100) have a 
specific key that generates the character as well, and depending on 
terminal, other methods or rules might apply. But we're still talking 
about an ASCII character with a specific value. When received by a 
terminal, it will move the cursor one line down, or if at the bottom 
line, scroll the screen one line up. There is not much more to say about 
that one.


GOLD and COMMAND on the other hand are specific keys on DEC terminals, 
that both sent specific sequences of characters when pressed. As such, 
this is a bit more complicated. You could of course just send those 
sequence of characters yourself, but it might be non-trivial to remember 
the exact sequence, and there might also be timeouts in some software 
that could defeat you if you try typing them in by hand.
Also, different DEC terminals might have sent different sequences for 
those keys, so the exact sequence might depend on what terminal you 
appear to have.


All that said, if we talk about a VT100, then GOLD is the same as PF1, 
which is above the numeric keypad. COMMAND is on the numeric keypad "7" 
(if I remember right), but be aware that the numeric keypad do not 
necessarily send the characters that are shown on the keytops. That 
depends on in which mode the terminal is in. In application mode, the 
numeric keys also send sequences of characters.


Having said that, if you are using xterm (for example), and have a 
keyboard with a numberic part, then usually F1 is actually mapped to be 
the same as a VT100 PF1, and the numeric keys actually work the same way 
as on a VT100, so you should be fine just pressing F1 numeric-7, and 
there is your GOLD COMMAND.
If you want more details on what sequences these keys generate, check 
the VT100 manual on Bitsavers, or ask here.


Johnny

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