Re: [Simh] SIMH and physical hardware (Zachary Kline)

[Al Kossow]

On 2/10/16 9:52 AM, Bob Supnik wrote:

The Computer
History Museum in Menlo Park


Mountain View



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Re: [Simh] SIMH and physical hardware

[Armistead, Jason BIS]

On 2/9/16 11:41 PM, Zachary Kline wrote:
> This is around 50% humorous, but it’s still a thing I’ve been thinking about 
> lately. From a newbie’s perspective, all SIMH machines are very similar. The 
> worst thing about emulation is that the “feel,” of the original hardware 
> doesn’t seem to be there. Simh can emulate tons of hardware from different 
> manufacturers, but none of that will tell me what it was like to actually use 
> the devices in a physical sense.
> As a blind user, I’m doubly interested in this kind of physicality because I 
> experience the world through touch and sound. I have little conception of the 
> shape or size of many of these notional machines, and they are all reduced to 
> various abstractions at a console prompt. It’s hard to imagine a thing I was 
> far too young to experience.
> I was reminded of an Apple II emulator I saw once, sadly not accessible, 
> which made the appropriate disk drive noises in use. Its kind of useless from 
> a  practical standpoint, but a lot of my interest in these machines isn’t 
> practical to begin with. I want to explore an earlier kind of computing, but 
> don’t expect to get a job with it or have anything beyond some entertainment.
> I really don’t know what, if anything, can be done to bridge this weird 
> disconnect. Actual hardware is probably gradually fading out, and in any case 
> probably wouldn’t be accessible from my perspective anyway.
>
> Any thoughts? Apologies for the disjointed post, it’s rather late. ;) 

Others have mentioned the familiar sound of disk drives and other devices.  In 
the world of SIMH, if the emulated system is running at a higher speed than the 
original hardware, the access times of such devices is also reduced (possibly 
quite significantly).  So what might have once been the slow clack-clack sound 
of floppy drive heads being stepped into position or recalibrated back to track 
zero, now becomes a much faster, higher-pitched sound.  Unless the simulated 
I/O device response timing matches that of the original hardware it emulates, 
attempting to play back recordings from physical hardware based on when and how 
SIMH access that device would be impossible to achieve, or be completely 
unsynchronized, or would need to be sped up, resulting in a "Vintage Computing 
meets the Chipmunks" sound !

PS: I always remember the sounds of an RD54 disk buzzing to life during the 
boot sequence of our trusty MicroVAX 2000, and the TK50 tape leader being 
picked up by the drive mechanism when first loaded.

Just my $0.02 worth
Jason
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Re: [Simh] SIMH and physical hardware

[Will Senn]

On 2/9/16 11:41 PM, Zachary Kline wrote:

This is around 50% humorous, but it’s still a thing I’ve been thinking about 
lately. From a newbie’s perspective, all SIMH machines are very similar. The 
worst thing about emulation is that the “feel,” of the original hardware 
doesn’t seem to be there. Simh can emulate tons of hardware from different 
manufacturers, but none of that will tell me what it was like to actually use 
the devices in a physical sense.
As a blind user, I’m doubly interested in this kind of physicality because I 
experience the world through touch and sound. I have little conception of the 
shape or size of many of these notional machines, and they are all reduced to 
various abstractions at a console prompt. It’s hard to imagine a thing I was 
far too young to experience.
I was reminded of an Apple II emulator I saw once, sadly not accessible, which 
made the appropriate disk drive noises in use. Its kind of useless from a  
practical standpoint, but a lot of my interest in these machines isn’t 
practical to begin with. I want to explore an earlier kind of computing, but 
don’t expect to get a job with it or have anything beyond some entertainment.
I really don’t know what, if anything, can be done to bridge this weird 
disconnect. Actual hardware is probably gradually fading out, and in any case 
probably wouldn’t be accessible from my perspective anyway.

Any thoughts? Apologies for the disjointed post, it’s rather late. ;)
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Zach,

I feel much the same way. I'm old enough to potentially have worked with 
these computers. But, I didn't and for about the first 6 months or so, I 
had a heck of a time imagining what an RK05, or an ASR33 were and this 
was incredible frustrating, really. I thought an RK05 was something like 
a cd changer, with disks and an ASR33 was like an IBM selectric 
typewriter. Neither conception was that far off, but after I saw and 
heard them in action, my imaginings became a whole lot more accurate and 
useful for my current exploration with the simulator. Even so, you talk 
about hearing these in operation. Again, what I imagined failed to match 
reality. I though, wow, wouldn't it be neat to find a PDP-11/40 or 
something and put it in my office with my imac and such. Uh, bad, bad 
idea. If you think a dell sounds like an airplane engine, a PDP-11 and 
it's peripherals in operation sound like a freight train. Here's a link 
for your listening pleasure (it's a youtube video, but really, it's the 
sound track that's awesome). It is entitled "PDP-11/40 Computer and 
ASR-33 Teletype":


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E4IztV7M3jI

Maybe at some point, someone could add a really low threshold audio loop 
to the simulator (sort of like a whitenoise generator) that is 
reminiscent of the machine(s) in operation as an assistive technology 
enhancement?


Regards,

Will


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Re: [Simh] SIMH and physical hardware (Zachary Kline)

[Bob Supnik]

The original article on restoration vs simulation 
(http://www.hpl.hp.com/hpjournal/dtj/vol8num3/vol8num3art2.pdf) still 
provides good insights into what's achievable by restoring old systems 
vs simulating them. Co-author Max Burnet's collection of working DEC 
gear provides a far better aural, and tactile recreation of using old 
DEC systems than SimH. Unfortunately, it's a lot more difficult to access.


The Living Computer Museum in Seattle has many working systems (PDP-7, 
KI/KL/KS-10, VAX 785, Sigma 9) and is renovating more. The Computer 
History Museum in Menlo Park has some working exhibits (PDP-1, IBM 1401, 
IBM RAMAC) too. There are quite a few working minicomputers and 
microcomputers in private hands as well.


/Bob Supnik

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Re: [Simh] SIMH and physical hardware (Zachary Kline)

[Zachary Kline]

I didn’t realize the LCM was in Seattle. THat’s pretty close to me, I’ll have 
to try and get over there when I can rope in an interested sighted friend.

Thanks for the insights and video links, all. I have to admit searching Youtube 
hadn’t occurred to me.
Best,
Zack.
> On Feb 10, 2016, at 9:52 AM, Bob Supnik  wrote:
> 
> The original article on restoration vs simulation 
> (http://www.hpl.hp.com/hpjournal/dtj/vol8num3/vol8num3art2.pdf) still 
> provides good insights into what's achievable by restoring old systems vs 
> simulating them. Co-author Max Burnet's collection of working DEC gear 
> provides a far better aural, and tactile recreation of using old DEC systems 
> than SimH. Unfortunately, it's a lot more difficult to access.
> 
> The Living Computer Museum in Seattle has many working systems (PDP-7, 
> KI/KL/KS-10, VAX 785, Sigma 9) and is renovating more. The Computer History 
> Museum in Menlo Park has some working exhibits (PDP-1, IBM 1401, IBM RAMAC) 
> too. There are quite a few working minicomputers and microcomputers in 
> private hands as well.
> 
> /Bob Supnik

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Re: [Simh] SIMH and physical hardware

[David Gesswein]

On Wed, Feb 10, 2016 at 08:32:25AM +0100, Pontus Pihlgren wrote:
> 
> Anyway, I think the best thing you can do is go to see a real machine, 
> perhaps at the LCM. It aught to give you a sense of the size, noise and 
> smell of old gear.
> 
The other place I know of is vintage computer festivals. The local
one to me largest machine is likely to be a couple rack PDP with mostly
small computers.
http://www.vintagecomputerfederation.org/

I let people touch my machine at the VCF. Emulator could match sound but no
way to match feel of typing on a teletype. Also need the smell-o-vision for
the warm oil smell they give off.
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Re: [Simh] SIMH and physical hardware

[J. David Bryan]

On Tuesday, February 9, 2016 at 21:41, Zachary Kline wrote:

> The worst thing about emulation is that the "feel," of the original
> hardware doesn´t seem to be there. Simh can emulate tons of hardware
> from different manufacturers, but none of that will tell me what it was
> like to actually use the devices in a physical sense. As a blind user,
> I´m doubly interested in this kind of physicality because I experience
> the world through touch and sound. 

The HP 9810, 9820, and 9830 simulators here:

  http://sourceforge.net/projects/hp9800e/

...are interesting in that user interaction is performed by clicking on the 
buttons, knobs, and switches in photographs of the actual hardware, and the 
accompanying sounds (e.g., a cassette tape door opening and closing), 
recorded from the hardware, are keyed to the actions.  The cooling fans 
provide the background noise.

I used an HP 9830 some forty years ago, and I found the simulator's sounds, 
in particular, to be strikingly evocative.

  -- Dave

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[Simh] SIMH and physical hardware

[Zachary Kline]

This is around 50% humorous, but it’s still a thing I’ve been thinking about 
lately. From a newbie’s perspective, all SIMH machines are very similar. The 
worst thing about emulation is that the “feel,” of the original hardware 
doesn’t seem to be there. Simh can emulate tons of hardware from different 
manufacturers, but none of that will tell me what it was like to actually use 
the devices in a physical sense.
As a blind user, I’m doubly interested in this kind of physicality because I 
experience the world through touch and sound. I have little conception of the 
shape or size of many of these notional machines, and they are all reduced to 
various abstractions at a console prompt. It’s hard to imagine a thing I was 
far too young to experience.
I was reminded of an Apple II emulator I saw once, sadly not accessible, which 
made the appropriate disk drive noises in use. Its kind of useless from a  
practical standpoint, but a lot of my interest in these machines isn’t 
practical to begin with. I want to explore an earlier kind of computing, but 
don’t expect to get a job with it or have anything beyond some entertainment. 
I really don’t know what, if anything, can be done to bridge this weird 
disconnect. Actual hardware is probably gradually fading out, and in any case 
probably wouldn’t be accessible from my perspective anyway.

Any thoughts? Apologies for the disjointed post, it’s rather late. ;)
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Re: [Simh] SIMH and physical hardware

[Larry Baker]

Zack,

On Feb 9, 2016, at 9:41 PM, Zachary Kline <zkl...@speedpost.net> wrote:

> Message: 6
> Date: Tue, 9 Feb 2016 21:41:03 -0800
> From: Zachary Kline <zkl...@speedpost.net>
> To: Simh <simh@trailing-edge.com>
> Subject: [Simh] SIMH and physical hardware
> Message-ID: <74262973-d9d8-4eea-98c7-7bb3763e8...@speedpost.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
> 
> This is around 50% humorous, but it’s still a thing I’ve been thinking about 
> lately. From a newbie’s perspective, all SIMH machines are very similar. The 
> worst thing about emulation is that the “feel,” of the original hardware 
> doesn’t seem to be there. Simh can emulate tons of hardware from different 
> manufacturers, but none of that will tell me what it was like to actually use 
> the devices in a physical sense.
> As a blind user, I’m doubly interested in this kind of physicality because I 
> experience the world through touch and sound. I have little conception of the 
> shape or size of many of these notional machines, and they are all reduced to 
> various abstractions at a console prompt. It’s hard to imagine a thing I was 
> far too young to experience.
> I was reminded of an Apple II emulator I saw once, sadly not accessible, 
> which made the appropriate disk drive noises in use.

This reminds me of my early days using PDP-11/34s and RSX-11M.  One sat in the 
same room as the rack with the computer and the disk drives.  RK05s: a 2.4 MB 
14 inch single platter inside a cartridge.  When you went through the 
edit-compile-link steps over and over and over, you could always tell when the 
link step was getting close to finishing by the high pitch chattering of the 
disk drive.  Thanks for the memory.

> Its kind of useless from a  practical standpoint, but a lot of my interest in 
> these machines isn’t practical to begin with. I want to explore an earlier 
> kind of computing, but don’t expect to get a job with it or have anything 
> beyond some entertainment. 
> I really don’t know what, if anything, can be done to bridge this weird 
> disconnect. Actual hardware is probably gradually fading out, and in any case 
> probably wouldn’t be accessible from my perspective anyway.
> 
> Any thoughts? Apologies for the disjointed post, it’s rather late. ;)

Larry Baker
US Geological Survey
650-329-5608
ba...@usgs.gov

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Re: [Simh] SIMH and physical hardware

[lists]

Hi,

I felt a twinge of sorrow reading your post but I am glad you posted it.

There are certainly many people on this list who do or did own actual
hardware but you have to remember many people who used these machines back
in the day never saw the machine or came near it. In most universities and
businesses the machines were kept in what today would be called a server
room, along with air conditioning and cabling either on the floor or under
it (raised floor). The vast majority of users and programmers sat in
terminal rooms or at their desks in cubes or offices and were connected to
the machine by physical cabling. You typically never saw the blinkinlights
or heard the machine or felt the disk drives shaking the floor or the
heat coming off the CPU cabinet. One of the things I remember most is how
loud an IBM 1403 printer is with the hood raised. It's almost to the point
of being unbearable because of how shrill and loud it was.

Again, I'm not saying many people didn't have that experience or that it
isn't important on many levels. I'm just saying the majority of programmers
and end users didn't have that experience so you didn't miss anything
except the comeraderie of being in a terminal room with a bunch of your
friends when the system crashed and hearing everybody groan at the same
time. Or being there in the middle of something when the power failed in
the whole building and losing your work (maybe or maybe not, depending on
what machine you were using). A lot of PDP gear was in small labs where
most students didn't go. At least that's the way it was in the universities
and schools I visited.

The same was true in big companies that used mainframes. The programmers
typically were not allowed in the machine room. The doors had combination
locks and only authorized personnel like operators and IBM's support staff
were allowed in there. Slipping into the machine room with an operator
buddy was grounds for dismissal in some of the places I have worked. Some
data centers in universities and business did have glass walls onto the
floor. But most did not.

The main way that we get the sense today of "wow this is great" is seeing
the terminal displays with the same layouts and prompts as we did in the old
days. For that I am truly sorry you don't have a way you can relate to it.
Imagining what that must be like is painful. On the other hand since you
said you were not around in those days it isn't as bad as it could be.

Bottom line these emulators are keeping old systems and software alive far
past the time that most people can longer use them. You still get a chance
to use old OS, software, and tools and "see" how things worked from that
point of view. You get to use some great quality code the likes of which we
haven't seen in a long time.

Thanks for your post and best regards. Happy vintage computing!


On Tue, 9 Feb 2016 21:41:03 -0800
Zachary Kline  wrote:

> This is around 50% humorous, but it’s still a thing I’ve been thinking
> about lately. From a newbie’s perspective, all SIMH machines are very
> similar. The worst thing about emulation is that the “feel,” of the
> original hardware doesn’t seem to be there. Simh can emulate tons of
> hardware from different manufacturers, but none of that will tell me what
> it was like to actually use the devices in a physical sense. As a blind
> user, I’m doubly interested in this kind of physicality because I
> experience the world through touch and sound. I have little conception of
> the shape or size of many of these notional machines, and they are all
> reduced to various abstractions at a console prompt. It’s hard to imagine
> a thing I was far too young to experience. I was reminded of an Apple II
> emulator I saw once, sadly not accessible, which made the appropriate
> disk drive noises in use. Its kind of useless from a  practical
> standpoint, but a lot of my interest in these machines isn’t practical to
> begin with. I want to explore an earlier kind of computing, but don’t
> expect to get a job with it or have anything beyond some entertainment. I
> really don’t know what, if anything, can be done to bridge this weird
> disconnect. Actual hardware is probably gradually fading out, and in any
> case probably wouldn’t be accessible from my perspective anyway.
> 
> Any thoughts? Apologies for the disjointed post, it’s rather late. ;)
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Re: [Simh] SIMH and physical hardware

[Pontus Pihlgren]

On Tue, Feb 09, 2016 at 09:41:03PM -0800, Zachary Kline wrote:
> 
> Any thoughts? Apologies for the disjointed post, it’s rather late. ;)

To some it is very important. I have a gadget that replaces the floppy 
drive for my Commodore 64. It has an audio jack that plays the sound of 
a real floppy drive! I don't use it, but it shows the effort put in to 
get the right "feeling".

It also emulates the original loading speed if you want :-)

Anyway, I think the best thing you can do is go to see a real machine, 
perhaps at the LCM. It aught to give you a sense of the size, noise and 
smell of old gear.

Keeping a hand on a big old disk when it spins up is a rather nice thing 
:)

/P
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