Re: [Simh] TU-56

[Ethan Dicks]

On Thu, Apr 7, 2016 at 2:03 PM, Mark Pizzolato  wrote:
> I passed this driver stuff AND the RK05 Driver to Al for inclusion in the
> BitSaver's archive.  They now are available at: 
> http://bitsavers.org/bits/DEC/vax/vms/
>
> These drivers will operate the TC (TU56 DECtape) and the RK (RK11 RK05)
> Devices which are part of all the Unibus VAX simulators.

Very cool!  I have real hardware that I'd love to try this out on!

-ethan
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Re: [Simh] TU-56

[Pontus Pihlgren]

On Fri, Mar 25, 2016 at 08:57:58AM -0700, Mark Pizzolato wrote:
> 
> That said, the TC11/TU56 has been added to the VAX Unibus simulators
> and confirmed that it works using the Andy Goldstein supplied driver.
> 

That is pretty neat! Knowing that it works makes me want to scrounge up 
the hardware to use a VAX for archiving DECtapes.

:)

/P
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Re: [Simh] TU-56

[Mark Pizzolato]

On Thursday, March 24, 2016 at 5:44 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
> On 2016-03-25 00:57, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove wrote:
> > On 24 March 2016 at 19:20, Alan Frisbie  wrote:
> >> Because it *could* be done?
> >>
> > I wasn't sure, since I never actually worked with the real hardware. I
> > assume the UBA on the VAX provides a "normal" UNIBUS, right? In that
> > case you could probably connect other "old" and "weird" devices to the
> > VAX. RP11 (RP01, RP02, RP03 anyone?), TA11 (TU60 DECcassette), VT11...
> 
> Of course. Yes, it's a normal Unibus just like any other Unibus. Which
> is why I agree with Paul. While I don't mind default to have some stuff
> disabled, anything you could hook up to the real hardware should also be
> possible to enable in simh. Who cares if there is a driver for some OS
> or not. What is there to say that not some just decided that they wanted
> to write such a device driver.

It certainly is 'possible' in simh.  If someone was that inspired to write a 
device driver for some unsupported Unibus device that existed in the 
PDP11 simulator but didn't exist in a VAX simulator, the effort to add the 
device to the VAX simulator is trivial compared to the effort involved in 
writing the driver.  The process is documented in doc/simh_vmio.doc.  
The time involved is comparable to the time to shutdown and install a 
board into a real Unibus:  3 lines of code in the vaxNNN_defs.h file, and 
2 lines of code in the vaxNNN_syslist.c file, and some minor tweaks in the 
pdp11_ZZ file (including vax_def.h when compiling for a VAX) and 
change to the makefile to add the new device.

There are many Unibus devices in the PDP11 simulator which are 
unsupported (lacking a driver in any known OS) in the VAX simulators and 
they would just be clutter.  If someone is really motivated to write a new, 
OS driver the process is pretty easy, so I'll leave it to them.

That said, the TC11/TU56 has been added to the VAX Unibus simulators
and confirmed that it works using the Andy Goldstein supplied driver.

- Mark
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Re: [Simh] TU-56

[Johnny Billquist]

On 2016-03-25 00:57, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove wrote:

On 24 March 2016 at 19:20, Alan Frisbie  wrote:

Because it *could* be done?


I wasn't sure, since I never actually worked with the real hardware. I
assume the UBA on the VAX provides a "normal" UNIBUS, right? In that
case you could probably connect other "old" and "weird" devices to the
VAX. RP11 (RP01, RP02, RP03 anyone?), TA11 (TU60 DECcassette), VT11...


Of course. Yes, it's a normal Unibus just like any other Unibus. Which 
is why I agree with Paul. While I don't mind default to have some stuff 
disabled, anything you could hook up to the real hardware should also be 
possible to enable in simh. Who cares if there is a driver for some OS 
or not. What is there to say that not some just decided that they wanted 
to write such a device driver.



I saw a TU56 running on a VAX-11/780 at the 10th VMS anniversary
celebration at the 1987 Fall DECUS symposium in Anaheim.   It was
done by Andy Goldstein, who kindly sent me a copy of the driver
he wrote for it.   My intent was to hook my TC11/TU56 via an ABLE
Q-Bus-to-Unibus converter to my MicroVAX-II, but I never got around
to it.   I still have all the stuff, so I might yet get around to
doing it.   Just because it *can* be done.  :-)


That TU56's were hooked up to a VAX-11/780 running VMS amuses me
greatly. And echoing Mark, yes please do provide us with the driver,
if you can.

Now, to putting DECtape on a MicroVAX... let me use a quote here:
"Science isn't about WHY. It's about WHY NOT."

Also, hmm QBUS<->UNIBUS bridges... you could stick a TC11/TU56 into a
MicroVAX 3900 or VAX 4000 Model 200.


Right. It would be pretty interesting to see in real life.

Johnny

--
Johnny Billquist  || "I'm on a bus
  ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: b...@softjar.se ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive! ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
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Re: [Simh] TU-56

[Alan Frisbie]

On 03/24/2016 04:27 PM, Mark Pizzolato wrote:

If you've got a driver we can put someplace I'll be glad to add
the TC11/TU56 to the Unibus VAX simulators...


I found the driver and build files and will send them to you
shortly.   Please let us know where you make them available,
so I'm not a single point of failure.

Andy even added some additional error handling and related features
in 1992, long after most DECtape drives had been scrapped.

Alan Frisbie
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Re: [Simh] TU-56

[Paul Koning]

> On Mar 24, 2016, at 5:55 PM, Mark Pizzolato  wrote:
> 
> On Thursday, March 24, 2016 at 2:40 PM, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove wrote:
>> On 24 March 2016 at 18:13, Bill Cunningham  wrote:
>>>My apologies for posting carlessly and not entering a subject. I
>>> do now indeed have the latest simhvmaster mar 2006. OK. I see vax780
>>> supports TU-50. Will that also support TU-56. Sorry for my ignorance.
>>> Maybe I am overlooking TU-56 support somewhere.
>>> 
>> Neither the "vax780" (VAX-11/780) or "vax8600" (VAX-11/790... sorry, I mean
>> VAX 8600) simulators support the TU56 DECtape, but they do support TU58
>> DECtape II.
> 
> This is not merely a problem with lack of simulation.  The goal of the simh 
> simulators is to simulate what was really supported on the original hardware 
> that is being simulated.  DEC didn't support TU56 DECtape on any VAX system, 
> hence the device isn't included in the VAX simulators...

That depends on the definition of "support".  I know that Andy Goldstein 
implemented support, even including the famous "overlapped seek" mode familiar 
from TOPS-10.  I don't know if that code was ever included in a shipping 
version (presumably as a hidden feature).  I suppose one could ask him, or just 
try it.

paul


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Re: [Simh] TU-56

[Mark Pizzolato]

If you've got a driver we can put someplace I'll be glad to add the TC11/TU56 
to the Unibus VAX simulators...

On 03/24/2016 03:57 PM, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove wrote:

> Correct, as should be expected. None of the VAXen supported the
> "original" TU55/TU56 DECtape on a TC11; at least in terms of software
> support. I assume you'd be able to plug a TC11 into the VAX UNIBUS
> adapter, but *why* you would do that is beyond me...

Because it *could* be done?

I saw a TU56 running on a VAX-11/780 at the 10th VMS anniversary
celebration at the 1987 Fall DECUS symposium in Anaheim.   It was
done by Andy Goldstein, who kindly sent me a copy of the driver
he wrote for it.   My intent was to hook my TC11/TU56 via an ABLE
Q-Bus-to-Unibus converter to my MicroVAX-II, but I never got around
to it.   I still have all the stuff, so I might yet get around to
doing it.   Just because it *can* be done.  :-)

Alan Frisbie

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Re: [Simh] TU-56

[Bill Cunningham]

Ok at this page then,

http://iamvirtual.ca/VAX11/VAX-11-software.html

Whatever that putr is it's for DOS. OK I guess it is TU-58 then. Too many 
numbers today. THis looks mostly like VMS but maybe some other things too.

Bill

  - Original Message - 
  From: Mark Pizzolato 
  To: Christian Gauger-Cosgrove ; Bill Cunningham 
  Cc: SIMH 
  Sent: Thursday, March 24, 2016 4:55 PM
  Subject: RE: [Simh] TU-56


  On Thursday, March 24, 2016 at 2:40 PM, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove wrote:
  > On 24 March 2016 at 18:13, Bill Cunningham <bill...@suddenlink.net> wrote:
  > > My apologies for posting carlessly and not entering a subject. I
  > > do now indeed have the latest simhvmaster mar 2006. OK. I see vax780
  > > supports TU-50. Will that also support TU-56. Sorry for my ignorance.
  > > Maybe I am overlooking TU-56 support somewhere.
  > >
  > Neither the "vax780" (VAX-11/780) or "vax8600" (VAX-11/790... sorry, I mean
  > VAX 8600) simulators support the TU56 DECtape, but they do support TU58
  > DECtape II.

  This is not merely a problem with lack of simulation.  The goal of the simh 
  simulators is to simulate what was really supported on the original hardware 
  that is being simulated.  DEC didn't support TU56 DECtape on any VAX system, 
  hence the device isn't included in the VAX simulators...

  - Mark
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Re: [Simh] TU-56

[Mark Pizzolato]

On Thursday, March 24, 2016 at 2:40 PM, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove wrote:
> On 24 March 2016 at 18:13, Bill Cunningham  wrote:
> > My apologies for posting carlessly and not entering a subject. I
> > do now indeed have the latest simhvmaster mar 2006. OK. I see vax780
> > supports TU-50. Will that also support TU-56. Sorry for my ignorance.
> > Maybe I am overlooking TU-56 support somewhere.
> >
> Neither the "vax780" (VAX-11/780) or "vax8600" (VAX-11/790... sorry, I mean
> VAX 8600) simulators support the TU56 DECtape, but they do support TU58
> DECtape II.

This is not merely a problem with lack of simulation.  The goal of the simh 
simulators is to simulate what was really supported on the original hardware 
that is being simulated.  DEC didn't support TU56 DECtape on any VAX system, 
hence the device isn't included in the VAX simulators...

- Mark
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Re: [Simh] TU-56

[Christian Gauger-Cosgrove]

On 24 March 2016 at 18:13, Bill Cunningham  wrote:
> My apologies for posting carlessly and not entering a subject. I do now
> indeed have the latest simhvmaster mar 2006. OK. I see vax780 supports
> TU-50. Will that also support TU-56. Sorry for my ignorance. Maybe I am
> overlooking TU-56 support somewhere.
>
Neither the "vax780" (VAX-11/780) or "vax8600" (VAX-11/790... sorry, I
mean VAX 8600) simulators support the TU56 DECtape, but they do
support TU58 DECtape II.

Supported tape devices for both simulators are:
1. MASSBUS tape transports (TE16, TU45, and TU77) attached to a TM03
formatter (device TU)
2. TS11 UNIBUS attached tape transport (device TS)
3. TMSCP tape, UNIBUS attached as either TK50, TK70, or TU81 (device TQ)
4. Serial attached, TU58 DECtape II (device TDC)

MASSBUS tapes, the TS11, and the TU81 are standard 9-track magtape,
while TK50 and TK70 are cartridge tape drives (DLT, I believe?). TU58s
are DECtape II "it's like a disk, but slower and cheaper"; it is *not*
the same as, or compatible with TU56 "original DECtape", though in
principle both are magtapes formatted in blocks that pretend to be
very slow disks just different form factors and controller schemes.

The DECtape II device is the TDC device, which is disabled by default.
"SET TDC ENABLED" to enable it, of course.


Regards,
Christian
-- 
Christian M. Gauger-Cosgrove
STCKON08DS0
Contact information available upon request.
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[Simh] TU-56

[Bill Cunningham]

My apologies for posting carlessly and not entering a subject. I do now 
indeed have the latest simhvmaster mar 2006. OK. I see vax780 supports TU-50. 
Will that also support TU-56. Sorry for my ignorance. Maybe I am overlooking 
TU-56 support somewhere.

Bill
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