Re: [SLUG] X11 Font?
On Tue, Jul 13, 2004 at 01:41:39AM +1000, James Gregory said > > These are all good points, but 99% of desktop users don't run multiple X > > servers, > > I suspect they will run multiple X processes, just not at once. Logging > in and out of *DM requires an Xserver to be shutdown and started. You > get the same hit there. Hah, I find it very very hard to belive the hit here is measurable, much less noticable. But we're both talking out our arses here :-) > > aren't trying to circumvent proprietary font licenses, > > the point was that it is more difficult to circumvent such licensing if > there is no need to keep local copies of those fonts. But it's not > really relevant. right. > > but are > > using client-side font-rendering...I know a font server is of use to > > some people in fairly specialised situations, but I'm quite surprised > > that "desktopy" distros are installing it at all. > > Ok. That's a separate question. I suspect it's simply because it's > easier for distributions to have a single, tested configuration that > will deal with all circumstances. It makes no difference to the user at > all -- the installer will install X, and it will know that X depends on > xfs, and xfs will be added to the appropriate runlevels when that > package is installed. It used to be the case that using an X server was > the only way to get TrueType fonts. There's probably been no good reason > to move away from that configuration. > > I do however think that the arguments of speed, responsiveness and > stability are pretty important for all users. "Desktopy" or not. Keep in > mind that whether or not your users run multiple X servers, it's pretty > likely that they'll log in more than once. *DM will shut down the X > server in that case, but the font-server will keep running. Right, but has anyone ever measured the speed, responsiveness and stability, if any, you get from it? To me it just seems like an extra level of indirection and wasted ram, that most apps won't even use (mozilla, gnome and kde use fontconfig etc now anyway). -- Words of the day: CISU domestic disruption AGT. AMME eavesdropping import Agfa signature.asc Description: Digital signature -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html
Re: [SLUG] X11 Font?
> These are all good points, but 99% of desktop users don't run multiple X > servers, I suspect they will run multiple X processes, just not at once. Logging in and out of *DM requires an Xserver to be shutdown and started. You get the same hit there. > aren't trying to circumvent proprietary font licenses, the point was that it is more difficult to circumvent such licensing if there is no need to keep local copies of those fonts. But it's not really relevant. > but are > using client-side font-rendering...I know a font server is of use to > some people in fairly specialised situations, but I'm quite surprised > that "desktopy" distros are installing it at all. Ok. That's a separate question. I suspect it's simply because it's easier for distributions to have a single, tested configuration that will deal with all circumstances. It makes no difference to the user at all -- the installer will install X, and it will know that X depends on xfs, and xfs will be added to the appropriate runlevels when that package is installed. It used to be the case that using an X server was the only way to get TrueType fonts. There's probably been no good reason to move away from that configuration. I do however think that the arguments of speed, responsiveness and stability are pretty important for all users. "Desktopy" or not. Keep in mind that whether or not your users run multiple X servers, it's pretty likely that they'll log in more than once. *DM will shut down the X server in that case, but the font-server will keep running. j. -- James Gregory <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html
Re: [SLUG] X11 Font?
On Tue, Jul 13, 2004 at 12:41:37AM +1000, James Gregory said > On Mon, 2004-07-12 at 21:53 +1000, Rob Weir wrote: > > On Wed, Jul 07, 2004 at 04:47:10PM +1000, Malik Jayawardena said > > > Hi Nick, > > > > > > Thanks for the reply. > > > > > > We've acutally just sussed it out. Apparently FC2 has font scaling > > > disabled by default. All we did was add these two lines under > > > "*catalogue=*" to the > > > */etc/X11/fs/config* and it fixed it. > > > > Fedora still uses a font server by default? Why? > > Why are you saying "still"? My Mandrake laptop (recently installed) is > running the xorg X11 server and its default config is to talk to a font > server. I was under the impression that it's pretty common practice. In > addition to the old-skool XDrawText calls which would use those fonts > are the various systems that do client-side rendering and use the > Xrender extension to put fonts on the screen. Keep in mind that these > are separate systems (as far as I know). Yes, afaik, too. Note that anything using fontconfig or xft can't use a font-server anyway. > Anyway, it seems to me like a relatively sensible thing to do -- it > means you only need to load font data once between X servers. Sure. > I generally have GDM start up a couple of X servers on boot, so > there's presumably a saving there. Right. > Likewise, there's probably a time saving in font loading time. > There'll probably be a delay involved in IPC, but it won't be worse > than the overhead you already suffer from the X infrastructure. My > understanding is that the XFree86 X server is single- threaded atm, so > it's likely that using a font-server would allow you to continue > interacting with the machine whilst fonts are being loaded. Yeah. > The real reason to me though is that there's a fair bit of work involved > in dealing with fonts. I tend to have heaps of them installed. Having > the code to do that work in a separate process is a logical division to > my mind. It buys you stability in that a dodgy font won't take down a > running X server (well, not necessarily true, but it's another layer to > get through). You might need to restart your font server, but that's > acceptable. That can also be automated if need be. Ok. > I suppose I can also envisage situations where having a font-server > would allow you to enforce a site-license for a commercial font. Not an > issue here I suppose, but it's another reason for maintaining that > separation. Sure. These are all good points, but 99% of desktop users don't run multiple X servers, aren't trying to circumvent proprietary font licenses, but are using client-side font-rendering...I know a font server is of use to some people in fairly specialised situations, but I'm quite surprised that "desktopy" distros are installing it at all. So, er, yeah, it was more a "general" why than a "you" why :) -- Words of the day: cracking Roswell genetic Majic Yukon munitions Defcon Becker signature.asc Description: Digital signature -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html
Re: [SLUG] X11 Font?
On Mon, 2004-07-12 at 21:53 +1000, Rob Weir wrote: > On Wed, Jul 07, 2004 at 04:47:10PM +1000, Malik Jayawardena said > > Hi Nick, > > > > Thanks for the reply. > > > > We've acutally just sussed it out. Apparently FC2 has font scaling > > disabled by default. All we did was add these two lines under > > "*catalogue=*" to the > > */etc/X11/fs/config* and it fixed it. > > Fedora still uses a font server by default? Why? Why are you saying "still"? My Mandrake laptop (recently installed) is running the xorg X11 server and its default config is to talk to a font server. I was under the impression that it's pretty common practice. In addition to the old-skool XDrawText calls which would use those fonts are the various systems that do client-side rendering and use the Xrender extension to put fonts on the screen. Keep in mind that these are separate systems (as far as I know). Anyway, it seems to me like a relatively sensible thing to do -- it means you only need to load font data once between X servers. I generally have GDM start up a couple of X servers on boot, so there's presumably a saving there. Likewise, there's probably a time saving in font loading time. There'll probably be a delay involved in IPC, but it won't be worse than the overhead you already suffer from the X infrastructure. My understanding is that the XFree86 X server is single- threaded atm, so it's likely that using a font-server would allow you to continue interacting with the machine whilst fonts are being loaded. That's not an absolute reason for having a font server in an X implementation, it's just a reason for it with the dominant ones. That might also be false :) The real reason to me though is that there's a fair bit of work involved in dealing with fonts. I tend to have heaps of them installed. Having the code to do that work in a separate process is a logical division to my mind. It buys you stability in that a dodgy font won't take down a running X server (well, not necessarily true, but it's another layer to get through). You might need to restart your font server, but that's acceptable. That can also be automated if need be. I suppose I can also envisage situations where having a font-server would allow you to enforce a site-license for a commercial font. Not an issue here I suppose, but it's another reason for maintaining that separation. Anyway, HTH. James. -- James Gregory <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html
Re: [SLUG] X11 Font?
On Wed, Jul 07, 2004 at 04:47:10PM +1000, Malik Jayawardena said > Hi Nick, > > Thanks for the reply. > > We've acutally just sussed it out. Apparently FC2 has font scaling > disabled by default. All we did was add these two lines under > "*catalogue=*" to the > */etc/X11/fs/config* and it fixed it. Fedora still uses a font server by default? Why? -rob -- Words of the day: Ron Brown CESID lock picking quiche Watergate Fat Man Peking signature.asc Description: Digital signature -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html
Re: [SLUG] X11 Font?
Hi Nick, Thanks for the reply. We've acutally just sussed it out. Apparently FC2 has font scaling disabled by default. All we did was add these two lines under "catalogue=" to the /etc/X11/fs/config and it fixed it. /usr/X11R6/lib/X11/fonts/75dpi, /usr/X11R6/lib/X11/fonts/100dpi Thanks again, -Mal Nick Croft wrote: * Malik Jayawardena ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: Anyway I keep getting this error: "Font not found: -*-helvetica-bold-r-normal-*-*-480-*-*-*-*-*-*No font found for GL" Mal, Did you type this or paste it? There appear to be 14 fields in this XLFD (X Logical Font Descriptor), where there should be 13. $ xlsfonts | grep helvetica | less -adobe-helvetica-medium-r-normal--34-240-100-100-p-176-iso10646-1 -adobe-helvetica-medium-r-normal--34-240-100-100-p-176-iso8859-1 etc I doubt whether that's due to the differences between distributions. It's either a typo or a screw loose in the error messages of the software. The 480 is the POINT_SIZE, (i.e 48pt). If I look for 48pt fonts here $ xlsfonts | grep 480 -cc-song-medium-r-normal-jiantizi-48-480-75-75-c-480-gb2312.1980-0 -hrnet&hcr-grtex-bold-i-normal--50-480-75-75-p-326-iso8859-2 I get a few, but no helvetica. Maybe you need to look for a larger helvetica somewhere. I'll have a go as well later. Nick -- businessCard Malik Jayawardena Motion Capture Technical Director ANIMAL LOGIC FiLM - e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ph: +61 2 9383 4800 -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html
Re: [SLUG] X11 Font?
* Malik Jayawardena ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: > > Anyway I keep getting this error: > > "Font not found: -*-helvetica-bold-r-normal-*-*-480-*-*-*-*-*-*No font > found for GL" > Mal, Did you type this or paste it? There appear to be 14 fields in this XLFD (X Logical Font Descriptor), where there should be 13. $ xlsfonts | grep helvetica | less -adobe-helvetica-medium-r-normal--34-240-100-100-p-176-iso10646-1 -adobe-helvetica-medium-r-normal--34-240-100-100-p-176-iso8859-1 etc I doubt whether that's due to the differences between distributions. It's either a typo or a screw loose in the error messages of the software. The 480 is the POINT_SIZE, (i.e 48pt). If I look for 48pt fonts here $ xlsfonts | grep 480 -cc-song-medium-r-normal-jiantizi-48-480-75-75-c-480-gb2312.1980-0 -hrnet&hcr-grtex-bold-i-normal--50-480-75-75-p-326-iso8859-2 I get a few, but no helvetica. Maybe you need to look for a larger helvetica somewhere. I'll have a go as well later. Nick -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html
[SLUG] X11 Font?
G'day, Just trying to run a piece of X11 software in Fedora Core 2 which used to work in RH 7.3. This software uses hardware OpenGL using the nVidia driver. Anyway I keep getting this error: "Font not found: -*-helvetica-bold-r-normal-*-*-480-*-*-*-*-*-*No font found for GL" ..when trying to run the software. We use the same nVidia driver on both distros, but it seems that only Fedor C2 has this problem. I'm guessing it's just an X11 font thing, but if anyone has any idea where I can get this font from to install (rpm, etc), or if it's not the problem, any idea how ot fix it, that would be most appreciated. Thanks, -Mal -- businessCard Malik Jayawardena Motion Capture Technical Director ANIMAL LOGIC FiLM - e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ph: +61 2 9383 4800 -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group Mailing List - http://slug.org.au/ Subscription info and FAQs: http://slug.org.au/faq/mailinglists.html
