RE: [SLUG] Hard Drives
At 16:54 13/02/2003, David wrote: yes.. but what about reliability? is there a difference? I need two new drives, but I much prefer reliability to size (I'm told that size isn't everything ;-) David I've got two of those Seagate drives (60GB). They're a little slower than, say, the newest Western Digital's, but they're very quiet and seem to be quite reliable. I also put an 80GB one into a friend's system, and it also seems to quite reliable. Of course, there's no way it compares to a SCSI drive. If you've got the money, it's always the way to go. Software RAID1 (mirror) is also great, but, the likelihood of failure is a small amount higher than some would have you believe -- a pair of drives from the same batch are more likely to fail with the same problem, at the same time than two drives purchased independently. (moral: always keep backups) Cheers, Matt P.S. WD is supposed to be releasing a 10,000rpm IDE drive sometime later this month. -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] Hard Drives
On Thu, Feb 13, 2003 at 06:24:00PM +1100, David wrote: I went to the trouble of installing a hardware RAID card (anyone want to buy it?). When the data on one drive was corrupted by a drive fault, the other drive dutifully mirrored it so I had TWO corrupted sets of data. Software RAID will do that too. The moral of this story is: backup with RAID is better than RAID without backup. ITYM backup *without* RAID is better than RAID without backup. Cheers, John -- I expect them to say the data is on a RAID, therefore you don't need backups. Because they are all fucking idiots. -- Paul Tomblin -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug
RE: [SLUG] Hard Drives
The moral of this story is: backup with RAID is better than RAID without backup. ITYM backup *without* RAID is better than RAID without backup. Although, it does protect you from a blown motor in one of the drives - without losing a day/week/months data. Then again - you may find your tapes are buggered and cant retrieve any data off that either! I guess it all depends how expensive your data is. Cheers! AW. -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] Hard Drives
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- On Friday 14 Feb 2003 10:09 am, John Clarke wrote: ITYM backup *without* RAID is better than RAID without backup. Agreed. And backup *with* RAID'ed SCSI disks is better still. Jon, I am *so* thankful for that Netstrada of yours! cheers, Chris - -- Chris SamuelWollongong, NSW -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.0.7 (GNU/Linux) iQEVAwUBPkwoZ41yjaOTJg85AQE4fggAut93Cr7A41JMMn/PJlzw8On4OH+BMyVY ct+IHMRKy0M5CfeUJ4VjKFCHHz112347dIffxsSTfCmDwqwXlS8VULxJN/hIXUB6 0BHCViCigFIezeDQPQUqn2YBdMWVW5tgt1h8Nv7BD2M9x2oLlQeP3COS1udPDXiV AmitTFWQy6+bBfv1DLANtPz9oo4VYzWLRjK65dS/1VFSc4P4W4agLcxrniuUUkd2 aQNnfLcTgiseVK9mLG7Cq5O+/uEOd/3RLfriroojexQNIk8Xjw2AR8DRkhTYnMb1 Ero2MEngZfQYfI+QCjJoCl7QEJOCSEb98Bo6CXVBkjl/vJAxCrHrBQ== =bF9B -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] Hard Drives
On Fri, Feb 14, 2003 at 10:14:19AM +1100, Adam W wrote: The moral of this story is: backup with RAID is better than RAID without backup. ITYM backup *without* RAID is better than RAID without backup. Although, it does protect you from a blown motor in one of the drives - without losing a day/week/months data. True, but at least you can recover most of your data. A corrupted RAID array without backups means you're stuffed. RAID increases availability but reduces reliability. Then again - you may find your tapes are buggered and cant retrieve any data off that either! That's why you test them regularly. Cheers, John -- Doesn't RAID stand for Random Array of Incompatible Drives? -- Joe Zeff -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] Hard Drives
Adam W wrote:
Then again - you may find your tapes are buggered and cant retrieve any
data off that either!
Shhez People! It is a standard part of admin work to regularly test your
backup is working. You should run a restore at least monthly.
--
Terry Collins {:-)}}} email: terryc at woa.com.au www:
http://www.woa.com.au
Wombat Outdoor Adventures Bicycles, Computers, GIS, Printing,
Publishing
People without trees are like fish without clean water
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More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] Hard Drives
On 13 Feb 2003, Jon Biddell wrote: Bit expensive - check the prices on www.programmersparadise.com.au - I think that size is about $153. Jon OK so I am getting a new harddrive (as a second HD) from my local PC store, and am thinking of a 40gb (or 60gb) Seagate 7200rpm 3y for $179.00, what do people think, and what are their experiences. Or go to the North Rocks computer market on Sunday - where I got an 80gig, 7200 RPM drive for $180. And, BTW, Jon - top posting sucks. :-) :-) DaZZa -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] Hard Drives
On Thu, 13 Feb 2003, David wrote: The moral of this story is: backup with RAID is better than RAID without backup.. RAID is not backup. RAID adds disk redundancy, no more. -=-=-==-=-=--=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Graeme Robinson - Graenet consulting www.graenet.com - internet solutions -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-==---=-=--=-=-= -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] Hard Drives
quote who=evilbunny GR RAID is not backup. RAID adds disk redundancy, no more. Raid can also do mirroring... or any combination of a lot of things, depending on the number of disks, the way you partition etc... That has nothing to do with backup though. It's 100% about disk redundancy, and that is all RAID does. - Jeff -- Is Murphy's Law constitutional? -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] Hard Drives
quote who=Jeff Waugh GR RAID is not backup. RAID adds disk redundancy, no more. Raid can also do mirroring... or any combination of a lot of things, depending on the number of disks, the way you partition etc... That has nothing to do with backup though. It's 100% about disk redundancy, and that is all RAID does. That was a bit of a sweeping statement. In context it was correct, but RAID can serve other purposes - RAID-0 (stripe) doesn't give you any redundancy at all, but can crank up your throughput. RAID-5 gives you a nice boost for reads as well as redundancy, etc. That said, no one I know is insane enough to run RAID-0 - RAID-0+1 (with redundancy) makes a lot more sense. - Jeff -- Wars end, love lasts. -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] Hard Drives
Bit expensive - check the prices on www.programmersparadise.com.au - I think that size is about $153. Jon OK so I am getting a new harddrive (as a second HD) from my local PC store, and am thinking of a 40gb (or 60gb) Seagate 7200rpm 3y for $179.00, what do people think, and what are their experiences. Thanx Andrwe D -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] Hard Drives
On Thu, 2003-02-13 at 14:32, Andrewd wrote: OK so I am getting a new harddrive (as a second HD) from my local PC store, and am thinking of a 40gb (or 60gb) Seagate 7200rpm 3y for $179.00, what do people think, and what are their experiences. I got an 80Gb the other day, for $209 - without shopping around. Rob -- GPG key available at: http://users.bigpond.net.au/robertc/keys.txt. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
RE: [SLUG] Hard Drives
I think my next harddrive purchase will be a 120gig drive.. for round about $300 .. all depends on how much space you need, but I use a lot of space (lots of games/pictures/copy my cds to hdd). For the extra $100 you get another 40gigs! -Original Message- From: Robert Collins [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, 13 February 2003 3:49 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [SLUG] Hard Drives On Thu, 2003-02-13 at 14:32, Andrewd wrote: OK so I am getting a new harddrive (as a second HD) from my local PC store, and am thinking of a 40gb (or 60gb) Seagate 7200rpm 3y for $179.00, what do people think, and what are their experiences. I got an 80Gb the other day, for $209 - without shopping around. Rob -- GPG key available at: http://users.bigpond.net.au/robertc/keys.txt. -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug
RE: [SLUG] Hard Drives
yes.. but what about reliability? is there a difference? I need two new drives, but I much prefer reliability to size (I'm told that size isn't everything ;-) David On Thu, 13 Feb 2003, Shanna Daly wrote: I think my next harddrive purchase will be a 120gig drive.. for round about $300 .. all depends on how much space you need, but I use a lot of space (lots of games/pictures/copy my cds to hdd). For the extra $100 you get another 40gigs! -Original Message- From: Robert Collins [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, 13 February 2003 3:49 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [SLUG] Hard Drives On Thu, 2003-02-13 at 14:32, Andrewd wrote: OK so I am getting a new harddrive (as a second HD) from my local PC store, and am thinking of a 40gb (or 60gb) Seagate 7200rpm 3y for $179.00, what do people think, and what are their experiences. I got an 80Gb the other day, for $209 - without shopping around. Rob -- GPG key available at: http://users.bigpond.net.au/robertc/keys.txt. -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] Hard Drives
On Thursday 13 February 2003 16:54, David wrote: yes.. but what about reliability? is there a difference? I need two new drives, but I much prefer reliability to size (I'm told that size isn't everything ;-) Every time I go see the friendly chinese guy down at my local pc shop for a new drive, he sells me a different brand. I asked him about this and he said that the quality of a given brand can vary greatly, because manufacturer A's drives can be made in different places at different times. He sells whatever he thinks is best this week (up to you whether you believe that!). Actually I believe him because there have been long discussions on /. about hard drives, and in the same thread you'll find slashbot A arguing that he swears by brand Foo, whereas slashbot B lost his job, car and girlfriend due to a crashed drive of the same brand. Moral of the story: ASSUME ALL DRIVES ARE CRAP. This is OK, because Linux gives us fantabulous software RAID. If you care about data integrity, get two drives, do mirroring, and the chance of data loss is very, very small. Better yet, get 3, so that you have one on hand when one dies. You should still do backups, of course. Personally I use RH, the installer makes setting up RAID pretty easy, other distros are probably not that hard either. RAID costs more, but I reckon the peace of mind is worth it. -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug
Re: [SLUG] Hard Drives
On Thu, 13 Feb 2003, Carl G Lewis wrote: On Thursday 13 February 2003 16:54, David wrote: yes.. but what about reliability? is there a difference? I need two new drives, but I much prefer reliability to size (I'm told that size isn't everything ;-) Moral of the story: ASSUME ALL DRIVES ARE CRAP. This is OK, because Linux gives us fantabulous software RAID. If you care about data integrity, get two drives, do mirroring, and the chance of data loss is very, very small. Better yet, get 3, so that you have one on hand when one dies. You should still do backups, of course. Personally I use RH, the installer makes setting up RAID pretty easy, other distros are probably not that hard either. RAID costs more, but I reckon the peace of mind is worth it. I went to the trouble of installing a hardware RAID card (anyone want to buy it?). When the data on one drive was corrupted by a drive fault, the other drive dutifully mirrored it so I had TWO corrupted sets of data. The moral of this story is: backup with RAID is better than RAID without backup.. -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug
RE: [SLUG] Hard drives
1)The drive bays are of the 'Lazer brand, whilst the box says they are hot swappable, I have some reservations about doing this, for fear of spiking the drive and damaging it or the others on the machine. I know that one has to be present in the machine for the bios to detect the fact that it is there, but there can be vast differences between the capacities of the drives, hence the drive parameters may not be recognised by the bios and thence the drive might not function. Does anyone have prior experience with this arrangement? I have a LASER brand bay in this current workstation - the standard ones are most definitely NOT hot-swappable, although I have done it accidently on occasion. I believe Natcomp sell a hot-swappable IDE bay/caddy system, but it's about $80 - $00 per unit last time I looked. 2)Assuming that it can be done how does one mount the drive and read from it, most likely they will be FAT16 or FAT32 - ex macroshit. FAT16 and even FAT32 shouldn't present a problem - the only format I've had problems with is TFS/HPFS. 3)I still have a couple of old p166 boxes that I could put these drives in if they can't simply be plugged into the spare slot on my present linux box, can this be rigged up as a raid array for interface with my linux box, if so how? What, as an external disk array ? I know IBM had some sort of expasnsion chassis many MANY moons ago, but I'm unaware of anything that would do this without going to SCSI using present technology. Assuming the drives are of sufficient size to warrant the agro, why not stick them in the old P166 boxes and put a minimal Linux install on them, then mount them as NFS ? Jon -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug
RE: [SLUG] Hard drives
1)The drive bays are of the 'Lazer brand, whilst the box says they are hot swappable, I have some reservations about doing this, for fear of spiking the drive and damaging it or the others on the machine. I know that one has to be present in the machine for the bios to detect the fact that it is there, but there can be vast differences between the capacities of the drives, hence the drive parameters may not be recognised by the bios and thence the drive might not function. Does anyone have prior experience with this arrangement? I have a LASER brand bay in this current workstation - the standard ones are most definitely NOT hot-swappable, although I have done it accidently on occasion. I believe Natcomp sell a hot-swappable IDE bay/caddy system, but it's about $80 - $00 per unit last time I looked. 2)Assuming that it can be done how does one mount the drive and read from it, most likely they will be FAT16 or FAT32 - ex macroshit. FAT16 and even FAT32 shouldn't present a problem - the only format I've had problems with is TFS/HPFS. 3)I still have a couple of old p166 boxes that I could put these drives in if they can't simply be plugged into the spare slot on my present linux box, can this be rigged up as a raid array for interface with my linux box, if so how? What, as an external disk array ? I know IBM had some sort of expasnsion chassis many MANY moons ago, but I'm unaware of anything that would do this without going to SCSI using present technology. Assuming the drives are of sufficient size to warrant the agro, why not stick them in the old P166 boxes and put a minimal Linux install on them, then mount them as NFS ? Jon -- SLUG - Sydney Linux User's Group - http://slug.org.au/ More Info: http://lists.slug.org.au/listinfo/slug
