[RCSE] Security issues and R/C models-keep politics off the exchange
A letter writing campaign is only part of what the Rocket community did to battle the BAFTE regulating our rocket motors. The Rocket community has organizations like the AMA. Those folks coordinated the letter writing campaign so all members would send the letters in at about the same time. They also provided boiler plate text to be used in the letters but encouraged everyone to customize the letters appropriately. They also lobbied congress and found a sympathetic Senator to champion our cause and submit a bill to counter the BAFTE. They also have a lawsuit in progress against the BAFTE. They also found a judge to make a ruling against the BAFTE. He found that the BAFTE did not follow proper procedure in handing down some regulations and was able to halt the regulations until they were properly done. RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off.
Re: [RCSE] Security issues and R/C models
Speaking with Dave Mathewson, he believes AOPA is the right model. He's an active full scale pilot and member of AOPA so he understands their impact on general aviation. -Ben Martin Usher wrote: Studying the NRA as a political model is not a bad idea I think the AOPA might be a better model. They appear to have an effective legislative program in place to protect general aviation from the excesses of government. Their interests overlap our interests so maybe the AMA should try to work with them, bulk up a bit so they don't look like a small bunch of oddball hobbyists that like to play with bits of wood and tissue paper. Martin Usher RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off.
Re: [RCSE] Security issues and R/C models-keep politics off the exchange
Sorry I said NRA, but they were the first group I thought of - they are visible and fight hard against legislations. Anyway What is the plan? Letter writing campaigns? AMA infomercials? Bumper stickers? NPR? Public hangings? I propose that the next time we here about proposed legislation affecting our hobby, that we write well thought out letters to our legislators expressing our concerns. The model rocket community did this within the last two years or so. The intent was to coordinate the letters so that they arrived in a show of force at about the same time. We would need someone politically oriented to tell us when these proposals are made public and to coordinate the effort across all disciplines of model aviation. As model sailplane guys we are, like all SIGs of the AMA, a minority. We need to stand together as AMA, not RCSE. I apologize to everyone, if indeed there is someone who does this. Tom Koszuta Western New York Sailplane and Electric Flyers Buffalo, NY RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off.
Re: [RCSE] Security issues and R/C models
phony semiautomatic assault rifle issue ! H! You do belong to a militia, right? I guess I better get an automatic. What I really want are nukes. (I have the desire.) OK, this doesn't belong here. Regis --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Studying the NRA as a political model is not a bad idea And why not? I love to hear the NRA bashers rant on about the effect we have on the government, our government. I and thousands like me ARE the NRA. Just private citizens who happen to believe that freedom IS protected by the private ownership of firearms. It ain't about duck hunting, Mr. Kerry! We who know something about firearms must always fight against those who act out of ignorance of and prejudice toward firearms. We do this by calling and writing our representatives about issues that effect us. Isn't that precisely what citizens are expected to do in a representative government? Who could perceive this as somehow bad? I was taught in civics class many years ago that that was what representative government was all about. Our elected officials can't represent us if they don't know where we stand on issues up for a vote. It really does not matter whether it is a phony semiautomatic assault rifle issue or depriving us of model airplane flying areas, it is up to each of us to be informed about the issues and inform our representatives how we expect them to vote for us. The real power in our system is in the voting out of office those who can't bring themselves to represent our views. It certainly worked with Gore. We expect elected politicians to represent us, not vote their conscience once in office when they feel safe. You may hate the NRA for your own reasons but the example is still worth studying. Dennis in NH RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off.
Re: [RCSE] Security issues and R/C models
Studying the NRA as a political model is not a bad idea I think the AOPA might be a better model. They appear to have an effective legislative program in place to protect general aviation from the excesses of government. Their interests overlap our interests so maybe the AMA should try to work with them, bulk up a bit so they don't look like a small bunch of oddball hobbyists that like to play with bits of wood and tissue paper. Martin Usher RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off.
Re: [RCSE] Security issues and R/C models-keep politics off the exchange
Just a polite request to keep this sort of political rant off the exchange. There's plenty of venues for this stuff. Soaring should be a safe haven from politics. Enough Barry Andersen Studying the NRA as a political model is not a bad idea And why not? I love to hear the NRA bashers rant on about the effect we have on the government, our government. I and thousands like me ARE the NRA. Just RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off.
Re: [RCSE] Security issues and R/C models-keep politics off the exchange
While I agree with Barry's premise that partisan politics (while at the same time sheepishly admitting to contributing to it in the past) are best discussed elsewhere, it would be foolish of us to ignore the effect of lobbying efforts in our represented republic. All three of the AMA presidential candidates mention working with various governmental organizations in their election statements. While Dave Brown's work with the FAA is important I think that all three of them might be neglecting the source of some of the more recent temporary flight restrictions (another debate in itself), that being Homeland Security. Large companies, organizations and other groups all hire lobbyists to ensure their interests are fairly represented in Washington (yet another discussion, money in politics). I think the AMA needs to not only continue the efforts they have made recently with the FAA and others, they also need to expand it to keep us out of the limelight and keep those who might be crafting legislation educated about our activities. I think this effort is truly non-partisan since it effects us all. This is just a curiosity question since I don't know much about the AMA at the president and AVP level (the executive counsil): Do the SIG presidents, TK and Jack before him, have much input in the AMA? My guess is they don't since they aren't included in the EC. One last item since I don't post much, did I miss the annual PETA v. KoB (Killers-of-Bambie) thread with obligatory soaring content of course? Kevin At 09:11 AM 10/21/2004 -0400, you wrote: Just a polite request to keep this sort of political rant off the exchange. There's plenty of venues for this stuff. Soaring should be a safe haven from politics. Enough Barry Andersen RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off.
RE: [RCSE] Security issues and R/C models-keep politics off the exchange
Kevin, WHAT work with the FAA has Dave Brown done? In his August article - (which should be required reading for ALL soaring enthusiasts) he tells of his trip to the FAA; a meeting in which he said he was shocked to discover that pilots regularly flew models higher than 400 feet! Reminds me of Captain Renault from Cassablanca: Rick : How can you close me up? On what grounds? Captain Renault : I'm shocked, shocked to find that gambling is going on in here! [a croupier hands Renault a pile of money] Croupier : Your winnings, sir. Captain Renault : [sotto voce] Oh, thank you very much. Dave Brown participated in a record autonomous flight - then prohibited autonomous flight with an AMA safety rule! He has intervened to prevent new world records by at least 2 pilots I know by refusing to sanction flights into class A airspace or refusing record applications. He has NOT worked with the FAA in this area and he has left it up to the pilots to fight HIS fight with the FAA while he waits on the sidelines (sound familiar). We deserve better. Mark -Original Message- From: Kevin Sheen [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2004 8:05 AM To: Barry Andersen; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [RCSE] Security issues and R/C models-keep politics off the exchange While I agree with Barry's premise that partisan politics (while at the same time sheepishly admitting to contributing to it in the past) are best discussed elsewhere, it would be foolish of us to ignore the effect of lobbying efforts in our represented republic. All three of the AMA presidential candidates mention working with various governmental organizations in their election statements. While Dave Brown's work with the FAA is important I think that all three of them might be neglecting the source of some of the more recent temporary flight restrictions (another debate in itself), that being Homeland Security. Large companies, organizations and other groups all hire lobbyists to ensure their interests are fairly represented in Washington (yet another discussion, money in politics). I think the AMA needs to not only continue the efforts they have made recently with the FAA and others, they also need to expand it to keep us out of the limelight and keep those who might be crafting legislation educated about our activities. I think this effort is truly non-partisan since it effects us all. This is just a curiosity question since I don't know much about the AMA at the president and AVP level (the executive counsil): Do the SIG presidents, TK and Jack before him, have much input in the AMA? My guess is they don't since they aren't included in the EC. One last item since I don't post much, did I miss the annual PETA v. KoB (Killers-of-Bambie) thread with obligatory soaring content of course? Kevin This message is intended only for the use of the Addressee and may contain information that is PRIVILEGED and CONFIDENTIAL. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please erase all copies of the message and its attachments and notify Space Imaging immediately. RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off.
Re: [RCSE] Security issues and R/C models-keep politics off the exchange
Soaring should be a safe haven from politics. We can't ignore politics because unfortunately it won't ignore us. I'd wholehartedly agree that bringing in the NRA with all the baggage that entails isn't at all constructive but at the other extreme just pretending that government is going to look out for us -- or even care that we exist -- just isn't realistic. This whole thread started because it appeared that someone out there -- some mid to lower level official, not an elected politician -- decided that R/C aircraft presented a sufficient threat to the well being of important people that they could be disabled at will. Since we are now in a security-oriented culture nobody will tell us what they're doing or why so we don't even know for sure that this is happening and if it is under what policies it was applied -- we don't even know who to ask and we're unlikely to get answer sif we did. There are politics involved because politics sets the agenda, the cultural environment, and its the only way we're going to have any kind of input into this process. Martin Usher RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off.
RE: [RCSE] Security issues and R/C models-keep politics off the exchange
Martin, I've only seen speculation here - no facts at all. I'm not aware that anyone has presented any empirical data supporting the notion that the government is disabling RC aircraft. Mark -Original Message- From: Martin Usher [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, October 21, 2004 9:20 AM To: RCSE Subject: Re: [RCSE] Security issues and R/C models-keep politics off the exchange Soaring should be a safe haven from politics. We can't ignore politics because unfortunately it won't ignore us. I'd wholehartedly agree that bringing in the NRA with all the baggage that entails isn't at all constructive but at the other extreme just pretending that government is going to look out for us -- or even care that we exist -- just isn't realistic. This whole thread started because it appeared that someone out there -- some mid to lower level official, not an elected politician -- decided that R/C aircraft presented a sufficient threat to the well being of important people that they could be disabled at will. Since we are now in a security-oriented culture nobody will tell us what they're doing or why so we don't even know for sure that this is happening and if it is under what policies it was applied -- we don't even know who to ask and we're unlikely to get answer sif we did. There are politics involved because politics sets the agenda, the cultural environment, and its the only way we're going to have any kind of input into this process. Martin Usher RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. *** This message is intended only for the use of the Addressee and may contain information that is PRIVILEGED and CONFIDENTIAL. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please erase all copies of the message and its attachments and notify Space Imaging immediately. *** RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off.
Re: [RCSE] Security issues and R/C models-keep politics off the exchange
It comes down to one thing. If you Ignore government and not pay attention to what they do or say, you lose. One day you go to your favorite field to fly and there is someone with a uniform There to stop you you scratch your head and say what happened. Well if you paid attention and stood your ground early when there was time to do something about it. You would still be flying. Don't believe me Look around and see how many rights are being taken away. I myself have a Pool hall Bar that now because of political malfunction nobody is aloud to smoke in the building, so we have lost 50% of our business. Only 5 of us showed up to fight it. ( go figure ) So stand back, do not get involved in the political aspect and the few of us left standing ( pray that there is enough of us ) will have to fight alone. And if only 5 show up to fight. Don't say a %(#$@ word when you have no place to fly because you didn't want to get involved. I love this sport I would realy hate to see it fade away because I can't fly my cross country or scale sailplanes any more. Try to keep a 5.3m scale ship below 500' Call that fun. On Thu, 21 Oct 2004 09:11:58 -0400, Barry Andersen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Just a polite request to keep this sort of political rant off the exchange. There's plenty of venues for this stuff. Soaring should be a safe haven from politics. Enough Barry Andersen Studying the NRA as a political model is not a bad idea And why not? I love to hear the NRA bashers rant on about the effect we have on the government, our government. I and thousands like me ARE the NRA. Just RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. -- Ken York County Soaring Lighthorse Team YCS Silence is Golden RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off.
Re: [RCSE] Security issues and R/C models-keep politics off the exchange
--- Ken Leamy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It comes down to one thing. If you Ignore government and not pay attention to what they do or say, you lose. exactly. And be it guns or R/C Sailplanes, it will be gone. Frankly I don't own a gun... never have. But understand COMPLETELY the gun owner's postition. We ignore our loss of freedoms, even if we believe a particular loss is 'fine with me', at our own peril. And the limp 'you know what' lawyers we elect to office will ban or restrict the 'easy stuff' like R/C Sailplanes long before the hard stuff Mr China would have banned. Why? Why do we keep electing these people? Why is there no grass roots effort to have a 'none of the above' choice and make them select someone else? Dumb Dumb Dumb. No matter what it is, guns, speech, privacy, chemistry sets, rockets, R/C planes, R/C boats, R/C helis, you name it, once it's lost it takes 10 times as much effort to bring it back. Mr China simply 'does not get it' and sadly never will. He sounds good. So did Neville Chamberlain. Both would achieve the same results. :( This is my one allowed RCSE post on the subject. :D Those that would sacrifice freedom for security deserve neither. How true. Jeff = --- Jeffrey D. Gortatowsky La Habra Heights, California Madam, there's no such thing as a tough child -- if you parboil them first for seven hours, they always come out tender. - W.C. Fields What wretched scoundrel stole the cork from my lunch? - W.C. Fields RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off.
Re: [RCSE] Security issues and R/C models
We need to fight every restriction, whether we agree with the restriction or not. They need to know that anytime they push against a model flyer we will all push back. Why do you think that it is legal to buy assault rifles again? Because NRA does not let any restriction go unprotested. It sucks but its true - the squeaky wheels get the oil. Now if we could get sponsors like Smith and Wesson and get a spokesman like Heston, we could organize a multimilliion dollar lobby and never have any problems again. Tom Koszuta Western New York Sailplane and Electric Flyers Buffalo, NY begin rant BTW, I feel that ANY restrictions because of terrorist acts that infringe on Americans rights in America are gross knee jerk reactions that do nothing besided make it look like the government is doing something. When we lose rights, terrorists win. We should see all restrictions for what they are - restrictions in the Land of the Free. end rant RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off.
Re: [RCSE] Security issues and R/C models
Thomas is correct. We need to be more organized and direct to the lawmakers about any issue that has the potential to affect our hobby. Unfortunately, that is the truth about politics. Now that the military is getting into RC in a big way, we can expect a lot of pressure in the future. If we are not diligent, we will have a tough time. Now, that said,our hobby (i.e., we as members) and our Academy needs to do more to protect our rights as modelers and flyers than we currently do. Studying the NRA as a political model is not a bad idea. In fact, studying the organization as a whole would be enlightening. For instance, take a look at their membership cost and the benefits that clubs and members get for their membership money. What about the fact that the organization itself acts as a watchdog on legislative issues and will organize grass roots opposition when appropriate. Compare that to our AMA. I personally believe we need to fiercely preserve all of the freedoms we have. How many modelers and flyers are out there freelancing (i.e, not AMA members)? A LOT more than there are members. There is room to grow the organization and the membership needs a more active organization. We certainly could use a Charlton Heston, but we don't need a Smith and Wesson; we need a Bill Ruger. Just my opinions. You are free to disagree. EJ - Original Message - From: Thomas Koszuta [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2004 7:32 AM Subject: Re: [RCSE] Security issues and R/C models We need to fight every restriction, whether we agree with the restriction or not. They need to know that anytime they push against a model flyer we will all push back. Why do you think that it is legal to buy assault rifles again? Because NRA does not let any restriction go unprotested. It sucks but its true - the squeaky wheels get the oil. Now if we could get sponsors like Smith and Wesson and get a spokesman like Heston, we could organize a multimilliion dollar lobby and never have any problems again. Tom Koszuta Western New York Sailplane and Electric Flyers Buffalo, NY RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off.
RE: [RCSE] Security issues and R/C models
OK - so who are YOU voting for as AMA president? More of the same - no action - head in the sand? Think about that. Mark This message is intended only for the use of the Addressee and may contain information that is PRIVILEGED and CONFIDENTIAL. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please erase all copies of the message and its attachments and notify Space Imaging immediately. RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off.
Re: [RCSE] Security issues and R/C models
RCSEr's Ed and Tom are making perfectly good sense and I have no doubt that driving to your local flying field will be a thing of the past in ten years. Look how long it took AMA and how much work it was to get the extra freqs. I've been flying RC since 1957 part-time and in ten years I planned on flying RC full time. But I really suspect that a few retirement villages with a structured field - not near a potential threat and the AMA site at Muncie will be all that is left - if we give the GOV advanced notice and they remember to put it on the day/duty officer's sheet. * Grass roots ARE needed - but the AMA needs to have started protecting our rights/priviledge five years ago - or at least right after 9 11. ** Insurance, Model Aviation, Dues are NOT important compared to our right/priviledge to fly where and when we would like. Just IMHO Jim AMA Life Member #43 On Wed, 20 Oct 2004 13:27:51 +, Ed Jett wrote: Thomas is correct. We need to be more organized and direct to the lawmakers about any issue that has the potential to affect our hobby. Unfortunately, that is the truth about politics. Now that the military is getting into RC in a big way, we can expect a lot of pressure in the future. If we are not diligent, we will have a tough time. Now, that said,our hobby (i.e., we as members) and our Academy needs to do more to protect our rights as modelers and flyers than we currently do. Studying the NRA as a political model is not a bad idea. In fact, studying the organization as a whole would be enlightening. For instance, take a look at their membership cost and the benefits that clubs and members get for their membership money. What about the fact that the organization itself acts as a watchdog on legislative issues and will organize grass roots opposition when appropriate. Compare that to our AMA. I personally believe we need to fiercely preserve all of the freedoms we have. How many modelers and flyers are out there freelancing (i.e, not AMA members)? A LOT more than there are members. There is room to grow the organization and the membership needs a more active organization. We certainly could use a Charlton Heston, but we don't need a Smith and Wesson; we need a Bill Ruger. Just my opinions. You are free to disagree. EJ - Original Message - From: Thomas Koszuta [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, October 20, 2004 7:32 AM Subject: Re: [RCSE] Security issues and R/C models We need to fight every restriction, whether we agree with the restriction or not. They need to know that anytime they push against a model flyer we will all push back. Why do you think that it is legal to buy assault rifles again? Because NRA does not let any restriction go unprotested. It sucks but its true - the squeaky wheels get the oil. Now if we could get sponsors like Smith and Wesson and get a spokesman like Heston, we could organize a multimilliion dollar lobby and never have any problems again. Tom Koszuta Western New York Sailplane and Electric Flyers Buffalo, NY RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. Jim Ealy Education by Demonstration RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off.
Re: [RCSE] Security issues and R/C models
Studying the NRA as a political model is not a bad idea And why not? I love to hear the NRA bashers rant on about the effect we have on the government, our government. I and thousands like me ARE the NRA. Just private citizens who happen to believe that freedom IS protected by the private ownership of firearms. It ain't about duck hunting, Mr. Kerry! We who know something about firearms must always fight against those who act out of ignorance of and prejudice toward firearms. We do this by calling and writing our representatives about issues that effect us. Isn't that precisely what citizens are expected to do in a representative government? Who could perceive this as somehow bad? I was taught in civics class many years ago that that was what representative government was all about. Our elected officials can't represent us if they don't know where we stand on issues up for a vote. It really does not matter whether it is a phony semiautomatic assault rifle issue or depriving us of model airplane flying areas, it is up to each of us to be informed about the issues and inform our representatives how we expect them to vote for us. The real power in our system is in the voting out of office those who can't bring themselves to represent our views. It certainly worked with Gore. We expect elected politicians to represent us, not vote their conscience once in office when they feel safe. You may hate the NRA for your own reasons but the example is still worth studying. Dennis in NH RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off.
Re: [RCSE] Security issues and R/C models
but the commander of Andrews AFB came to the conclusion that it was better to have concerned people (eyes and ears) around then not. (Especially now when are forces have been stretched so thin Andrews AFB has replaced the Air Police at the gates with civilian contract personnel). Many of the club members are military or ex-military and have security training. Eliminating the terrorist threat is unrealistic I used that same argument at Pease Tradeport but the FAA rep. didn't buy it because he flew models as a kid and knew how dangerous they were. Besides, the radios would cause interference and the planes could carry cameras. If I were interested in taking someone out via RC, I'd use one of the new jets with a true turbine, and an onboard video camera setup. At 200+ mph, I think it would be more effective. Aren't we forgetting someone still must have the skill to put such a model together and actually pilot it? Not that I'd ever fly one I prefer aerobatics and soaring to turning big loops and circles, which is just about ALL their owners do with them. Sounds suspiciously like the famous argument, to paraphrase; When they came after the power fliers I wasn't concerned because my sailplane were quit so I said nothing. Then they came after the combat models but I fly slope so I didn't protest. But when they banned all flying models it was too late because there was no one left to help me. Dennis in NH RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off.
Re: [RCSE] Security issues and R/C models
Hi Keith, Are you back east yet? Everything you say is true but to borrow a prase from the NRA, if you ban model planes, only the terrorists will have r/c models. One of the clubs I belong to flies on the grounds of the Air Force Communications facility (antenna farm outside Washington, D.C.) that handles sensitive com. We were locked out after 9/11 understandably - but the commander of Andrews AFB came to the conclusion that it was better to have concerned people (eyes and ears) around then not. (Especially now when are forces have been stretched so thin Andrews AFB has replaced the Air Police at the gates with civilian contract personnel). Many of the club members are military or ex-military and have security training. Eliminating the terrorist threat is unrealistic (70 some arson related fires in the D. C. area and the police have no clues). Educated vigilant human observers are not unrealistic but a necessity. --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Keith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You guys just don't get it. Since none of you seem to realize what someone who has a mind to do can accomplish using an R/C model, and especially an electric glider, I'll tell you. You can easily use an electric glider as an accurate targeting anti-personnel weapon, and it'd be very effective against a small group of people (think of the president exiting his vehicle in the motorcade, surrounded by his security people). The types of explosives that are available and the materials you can wrap them can easily be carried inside the fuse and wings of any of our typical models. There are tiny, highly accurate, gps-based autopilot systems designed to be used with R/C gear that are easily available for purchase from several vendors that would make getting the model on a fixed target fairly easy. I get security training on a regular basis because of my job and my eyes have been opened to more types of small, terrorist-devised weapons than I ever would have thought existed, plus all the ones I learned about over the years my father worked to develop for the military. If you looked at your models and started thinking of all the ways you could use it as a weapon, then you'd realize just how nervous any security team would be to have you flying around anywhere near the asset they are trying to protect! Keith McLellan Captain Gulfstream III, Challenger 601 Northampton, PA RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off.
Re: [RCSE] Security issues and R/C models
If I were interested in taking someone out via RC, I'd use one of the new jets with a true turbine, and an on-board video camera setup. At 200+ mph, I think it would be more effective. Not that I'd ever fly one - I prefer aerobatics and soaring to turning big looops and circles, which is just about ALL their owners do with them. Matt Martin Usher wrote: You guys just don't get it. Since none of you seem to realize what someone who has a mind to do can accomplish using an R/C model, and especially an electric glider, I'll tell you. (Keith) Thanks. You can easily use an electric glider as an accurate targeting anti-personnel weapon With a payload capacity of less than a pound its not going to be that effective. There's also not that much room in the fuse for that payload, especially if you want to keep the CG within a controllable range. Landing it on the spot when the tape's in front of you isn't that difficult (landing on time -- well). Its a lot more difficult to hit a remote target...try going through a soccer goal that's a hundred yards away and see how well you do. The only way I could hit a high value target is if it were acting as my timer. There are tiny, highly accurate, gps-based autopilot systems designed to be used with R/C gear that are easily available for purchase from several vendors that would make getting the model on a fixed target fairly easy. Your're getting stuff confused. GPS, the GPS that we can buy, has a rather low update rate. It only updates once per second, too slow to do precision targeting. You need to combine it with some quality inertial guidance kit. The autopilots sold by FMA are optical wing levellers, not inertial guidance systems. I'm not saying that this kit is impossible to own, its just not over the counter at the moment. If it were then we'd have a major problem with Thermal Duration contests -- its bad enough having gyros keeping the planes on line during the approach, the last thing we want is something that can precisely autoland the planes for us. To quote one of your presidents -- The only thing you have to fear is fear itself. Yes, keep your eyes and ears open, but also keep a sense of proportion. Martin Usher (BTW -- You might find a visit to Israel interesting -- its full of people trying to live ordinary, everyday, lives in a society that's got what could be the worst-case in day to day terror threats. The locals don't seem that paranoid.) RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off.
Re: [RCSE] Security issues and R/C models
(BTW -- You might find a visit to Israel interesting -- its full of people trying to live ordinary, everyday, lives in a society that's got what could be the worst-case in day to day terror threats. The locals don't seem that paranoid.) Probably due in no small measure to a government that encourages it's population to carry uzies for personal and collective security instead of restricting firearm ownership to a clique of police as a job security measure. It's hard to demonize an object, like we have in America, England and Australia that can save your life one day. Dennis in NH RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off.
Re: [RCSE] Security issues and R/C models
Martin, Didn't mean to sound too serious in my previous reply, but it's just that I know what can be done with something like a model airplane, and I was really only responding to people's complaints about their model flying activities being curtailed temporarily when a security-sensitive "asset" is nearby. I am definitely against anything like our club flying fields being closed permanently for misguided security concerns! Also, I think we can all be as accurate as needed if we're trying to bullseye our timers!!! LOL!!! Keith
Re: [RCSE] Security issues and R/C models
Really neat stuff here! Pardon the dumb question, but what kind of camera is used here? Thanks, and thanks for the clip. RVC At 10:31 PM 10/16/2004 -0700, you wrote: If you guys want to see a hard launch w/ camera on board go the this web site, and hold on http://193.215.54.10/jogrini/video/pikelaunch.wmv jj RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off.
[RCSE] Security issues and R/C models
You guys just don't get it. Since none of you seem to realize what someone who has a mind to do can accomplish using an R/C model, and especially an electric glider, I'll tell you. You can easily use an electric glider as an accurate targeting anti-personnel weapon, and it'd be very effective against a small group of people (think of the president exiting his vehicle in the motorcade, surrounded by his security people). The types of explosives that are available and the materials you can wrap them can easily be carried inside the fuse and wings of any of our typical models. There are tiny, highly accurate, gps-based autopilot systems designed to be used with R/C gear that are easily available for purchase from several vendors that would make getting the model on a fixed target fairly easy. I get security training on a regular basis because of my job and my eyes have been opened to more types of small, terrorist-devised weapons than I ever would have thought existed, plus all the ones I learned about over the years my father worked to develop for the military. If you looked at your models and started thinking of all the ways you could use it as a weapon, then you'd realize just how nervous any security team would be to have you flying around anywhere near the asset they are trying to protect! Keith McLellan Captain Gulfstream III, Challenger 601 Northampton, PA RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off.
RE: [RCSE] Security issues and R/C models
Some think it is taboo to talk about these possibilities, some infer that if we talk about it the government will somehow crack down on us. Maybe true, but more likely they have other means of covertly addressing the problem. Off the shelf R/C model GPS autopilot systems are available which allow anyone to fly a model autonomously to a given coordinate. Less than %500.00. I had an inquiry from Pakistan wishing to order 5 autopilots, I turned the info over to the FBI. I have decided not to sell any autopilots oversees, but who says anyone could not do same in the U.S.? It is only a matter of time before we are regulated. JD Endless Mountain Models http://www.scalesoaring.com email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: Keith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, October 16, 2004 9:23 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [RCSE] Security issues and R/C models You guys just don't get it. Since none of you seem to realize what someone who has a mind to do can accomplish using an R/C model, and especially an electric glider, I'll tell you. You can easily use an electric glider as an accurate targeting anti-personnel weapon, RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off.
Re: [RCSE] Security issues and R/C models
Give me a break Keith. Maby if you were Joe (you know who )and could land or crashwithin 3 feet of thetarget while standing way,wayfar away flying the plane.. I think not! No way.. Just my two cents. Al Albert E. Wedworth ( AL ) ERA Capshaw RealestateREALTOR- ASSOCIATECell 530-228-9445Fax 530-343-1715
Re: [RCSE] Security issues and R/C models
You guys just don't get it. Since none of you seem to realize what someone who has a mind to do can accomplish using an R/C model, and especially an electric glider, I'll tell you. (Keith) Thanks. You can easily use an electric glider as an accurate targeting anti-personnel weapon With a payload capacity of less than a pound its not going to be that effective. There's also not that much room in the fuse for that payload, especially if you want to keep the CG within a controllable range. Landing it on the spot when the tape's in front of you isn't that difficult (landing on time -- well). Its a lot more difficult to hit a remote target...try going through a soccer goal that's a hundred yards away and see how well you do. The only way I could hit a high value target is if it were acting as my timer. There are tiny, highly accurate, gps-based autopilot systems designed to be used with R/C gear that are easily available for purchase from several vendors that would make getting the model on a fixed target fairly easy. Your're getting stuff confused. GPS, the GPS that we can buy, has a rather low update rate. It only updates once per second, too slow to do precision targeting. You need to combine it with some quality inertial guidance kit. The autopilots sold by FMA are optical wing levellers, not inertial guidance systems. I'm not saying that this kit is impossible to own, its just not over the counter at the moment. If it were then we'd have a major problem with Thermal Duration contests -- its bad enough having gyros keeping the planes on line during the approach, the last thing we want is something that can precisely autoland the planes for us. To quote one of your presidents -- The only thing you have to fear is fear itself. Yes, keep your eyes and ears open, but also keep a sense of proportion. Martin Usher (BTW -- You might find a visit to Israel interesting -- its full of people trying to live ordinary, everyday, lives in a society that's got what could be the worst-case in day to day terror threats. The locals don't seem that paranoid.) RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off.
Re: [RCSE] Security issues and R/C models
I was gona stay away from this topic and i think ill still only touch it and run!!!, for too many reasons. With a payload capacity of less than a pound its not going to be that effective. There's also not that much room in the fuse for that payload, especially if you want to keep the CG within a controllable range. i fly 2 completely DIY planes with more than 6lbs of additional cargo in the form of camera,gps,image/gps data transmiter,additional batteries,autopilot they are not gliders but they are small electric powered 50 and 80 wingspans with single cheapo 400 motors. the glide ratio is awesome intentionally because i dont photo with the motor on. but for a full glider a different launching device would be required but shouldnt require a lot of thought considering I WILL NOT highstart/winch launch a $500 camera and $$$ in accesseries) thats my touch and here i run :D RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off.
Re: [RCSE] Security issues and R/C models
If you guys want to see a hard launch w/ camera on board go the this web site, and hold on http://193.215.54.10/jogrini/video/pikelaunch.wmv jj - Original Message - From: Richard Reynolds [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Martin Usher [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Keith [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, October 16, 2004 8:24 PM Subject: Re: [RCSE] Security issues and R/C models I was gona stay away from this topic and i think ill still only touch it and run!!!, for too many reasons. With a payload capacity of less than a pound its not going to be that effective. There's also not that much room in the fuse for that payload, especially if you want to keep the CG within a controllable range. i fly 2 completely DIY planes with more than 6lbs of additional cargo in the form of camera,gps,image/gps data transmiter,additional batteries,autopilot they are not gliders but they are small electric powered 50 and 80 wingspans with single cheapo 400 motors. the glide ratio is awesome intentionally because i dont photo with the motor on. but for a full glider a different launching device would be required but shouldnt require a lot of thought considering I WILL NOT highstart/winch launch a $500 camera and $$$ in accesseries) thats my touch and here i run :D RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off. RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News. Send subscribe and unsubscribe requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Please note that subscribe and unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off.
