Re: [RCSE] " What's the big deal about 2.4? - Lag...okay now we are getting silly "

[Jay Hunter]

You guys can feel the difference from faster servos, servos with higher
resolution, see or sense the slightest bubble in lift, detect the slightest
change in the air, feel the air temp changes yet the fact that spektrum is
measurably faster is somehow lost on human senses?


On Fri, Mar 7, 2008 at 3:23 PM, Doug McLaren <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> On Thu, Mar 06, 2008 at 05:32:34PM -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> |Okay I was waiting for this one.  With a standard FM system, not even
> a
> |PCM System (which by the way is about the same as a 2.4 system...the
> |word 'digital' is sort of a hint there)...with a standard FM system
> the
> |time between a guy moving his thumb and the servo beginning its
> |movement is not visible to they eye...as it looks immediate.
>
> People have measured it under pretty controlled conditions and found
> the DX7 to be faster than most 72 MHz transmitters -- especially
> faster than the Futaba 9C in PCM mode doing CCPM (helicopter.)
>
> However, even in the slowest case (9C, PCM, CCPM) it's still way
> faster than your reflexes.  So while the DX7 might be 3x faster, it
> still doesn't matter because you can barely tell if at all.
>
> So, yes, the Spektrum stuff is faster, but in general I'd say it
> doesn't matter.  But of course many people disasgree, and they
> disagree quite loudly.
>
> References:
>
>   http://www.runryder.com/helicopter/t172571p1/
>
> (Note that they're looking at CCPM, so this is a worst-case scenario
> that shows the 9C to be slow.  With airplane modes, the difference is
> much smaller.)
>
> |Movement of the airframe is not 'only' a function of servo moving
> |servos.  AIRSPEED is a bigger factor and one that varies the "lag in
> |response" way more than any micro second change in the information
> time
> |from thumb to servo.
>
> Agreed.  Though to be fair, I suspect that most people who claim that
> radio X is faster than radio Y are also aware of this.
>
> --
> Doug McLaren, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> "The only two things that are infinite in size are the universe and
>  human stupidity. And I'm not completely sure about the universe."
>  -- Albert Einstein
> RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News.  Send "subscribe"
> and "unsubscribe" requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED]  Please note
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Re: [RCSE] " What's the big deal about 2.4? - Lag...okay now we are getting silly "

[Doug McLaren]

On Thu, Mar 06, 2008 at 05:32:34PM -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

|Okay I was waiting for this one.  With a standard FM system, not even a
|PCM System (which by the way is about the same as a 2.4 system...the
|word 'digital' is sort of a hint there)...with a standard FM system the
|time between a guy moving his thumb and the servo beginning its
|movement is not visible to they eye...as it looks immediate.

People have measured it under pretty controlled conditions and found
the DX7 to be faster than most 72 MHz transmitters -- especially
faster than the Futaba 9C in PCM mode doing CCPM (helicopter.)

However, even in the slowest case (9C, PCM, CCPM) it's still way
faster than your reflexes.  So while the DX7 might be 3x faster, it
still doesn't matter because you can barely tell if at all.

So, yes, the Spektrum stuff is faster, but in general I'd say it
doesn't matter.  But of course many people disasgree, and they
disagree quite loudly.

References:

   http://www.runryder.com/helicopter/t172571p1/

(Note that they're looking at CCPM, so this is a worst-case scenario
that shows the 9C to be slow.  With airplane modes, the difference is
much smaller.)

|Movement of the airframe is not 'only' a function of servo moving
|servos.  AIRSPEED is a bigger factor and one that varies the "lag in
|response" way more than any micro second change in the information time
|from thumb to servo.

Agreed.  Though to be fair, I suspect that most people who claim that
radio X is faster than radio Y are also aware of this.

-- 
Doug McLaren, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
"The only two things that are infinite in size are the universe and
 human stupidity. And I'm not completely sure about the universe." 
 -- Albert Einstein
RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News.  Send "subscribe" and 
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Re: [RCSE] " What's the big deal about 2.4? - Lag...okay now we are getting silly "

[Jack Iafret]

I fly indoors with a couple of really hot heli guys. Guess what, the best of
them and I think he is really good tells me there maybe a tad difference but
he is not really sure, at any rate it will not matter for a newbe heli guy
like me. BTW, really good to me is rolling circles one foot off of the
tarmac and rolling flips at the same height.

Scary!!!

Jack



On Thu, Mar 6, 2008 at 9:14 PM, TG Bean <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>  The lag argument is well...goofy.
> I have heard the Heli guys say they notice a difference, which actually
> makes some sense. The Heli is far more susceptible to lag than perhaps any
> other radio controlled device. I have also heard the IMAC guys say they
> notice a difference. Maybe they do...but I kinda doubt it.
>
> We dial in Expo to reduce the stick glitch, yet we are told that response
> is a bigger deal than perhaps it is.
>
> Like I saidgoofy.
>
>
>
>
> --
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2008 17:32:34 -0500
> Subject: [RCSE] " What's the big deal about 2.4? - Lag...okay now we are
> getting silly "
> To: Soaring@airage.com
>
>  *These two reasons are why I like the 2.4 system.  And I will add one
> other, the response really is better.  For the first time in my flying the
> plane is doing what I want when I want it, I don't have to compensate by
> anticipating the lag.*
> **
> **
> Okay I was waiting for this one.  With a standard FM system, not even a
> PCM System (which by the way is about the same as a 2.4 system...the word
> 'digital' is sort of a hint there)...with a standard FM system the time
> between a guy moving his thumb and the servo beginning its movement is not
> visible to they eye...as it looks immediate.
>
> However the indication above implies that the delay in the information
> getting to the servos from the stick is with none digital TX systems, would
> cause some sort of delay in the now pay attentionthe movement of the
> airframe.
>
> Movement of the airframe is not 'only' a function of servo moving servos.
> AIRSPEED is a bigger factor and one that varies the "lag in response" way
> more than any micro second change in the information time from thumb to
> servo.
>
> The next factor is servo speed 'while under their normal surface duties'.
> A far cheaper way to increase 'response' would have been to get digital
> servos.
>
> Lets not add fluff to an the benefits of a system which in the end is just
> another way to control models.
>
> And in the end the question to the above gleeful reason to own a digital
> systemhow many contests will that faster response time help you win this
> seasonmight be interesting to track compared to last season.
>
> Likely any wins won't be due to improved flying skills, it will have to be
> the result of that signal lag which caused slower responses of your
> sailplane ;-).
>
> Freedom is the big reason.   Freedom to turn on anywhere, the park, that
> empty lot, the space next to a factorya park.
>
> Gordy
> pretty quick response, hey?
>
>
>
>  --
> It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms and advice on AOL Money & 
> Finance.
>
>
> --
> Connect and share in new ways with Windows Live. Get it 
> now!
>



-- 
Jack Iafret
Home and Hobbies

Re: [RCSE] " What's the big deal about 2.4? - Lag...okay now we are getting silly "

[Jay Hunter]

I will add this and leave it alone.  My flying went from constant correcting
of over correcting to having the plane respond the way I wanted it.  And
nothing, not practice, faster servos, expo, dual rates, speed, etc...
improved the 'smoothness' of my flying like the spektrum.

If you guys don't feel it that's fine, but the same guys that were
questioning the viability of 2.4 in carbon fused sailplanes are now touting
its merits.  I guess someone like Joe Wurts would have to admit there is a
difference for some of you guys to know that it really is a better response.



On Thu, Mar 6, 2008 at 5:32 PM, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>  *These two reasons are why I like the 2.4 system.  And I will add one
> other, the response really is better.  For the first time in my flying the
> plane is doing what I want when I want it, I don't have to compensate by
> anticipating the lag.*
> **
> **
> Okay I was waiting for this one.  With a standard FM system, not even a
> PCM System (which by the way is about the same as a 2.4 system...the word
> 'digital' is sort of a hint there)...with a standard FM system the time
> between a guy moving his thumb and the servo beginning its movement is not
> visible to they eye...as it looks immediate.
>
> However the indication above implies that the delay in the information
> getting to the servos from the stick is with none digital TX systems, would
> cause some sort of delay in the now pay attentionthe movement of the
> airframe.
>
> Movement of the airframe is not 'only' a function of servo moving servos.
> AIRSPEED is a bigger factor and one that varies the "lag in response" way
> more than any micro second change in the information time from thumb to
> servo.
>
> The next factor is servo speed 'while under their normal surface duties'.
> A far cheaper way to increase 'response' would have been to get digital
> servos.
>
> Lets not add fluff to an the benefits of a system which in the end is just
> another way to control models.
>
> And in the end the question to the above gleeful reason to own a digital
> systemhow many contests will that faster response time help you win this
> seasonmight be interesting to track compared to last season.
>
> Likely any wins won't be due to improved flying skills, it will have to be
> the result of that signal lag which caused slower responses of your
> sailplane ;-).
>
> Freedom is the big reason.   Freedom to turn on anywhere, the park, that
> empty lot, the space next to a factorya park.
>
> Gordy
> pretty quick response, hey?
>
>
>
> --
> It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms and advice on AOL Money & 
> Finance.
>

RE: [RCSE] " What's the big deal about 2.4? - Lag...okay now we are getting silly "

[TG Bean]

The lag argument is well...goofy.
I have heard the Heli guys say they notice a difference, which actually makes 
some sense. The Heli is far more susceptible to lag than perhaps any other 
radio controlled device. I have also heard the IMAC guys say they notice a 
difference. Maybe they do...but I kinda doubt it.
 
We dial in Expo to reduce the stick glitch, yet we are told that response is a 
bigger deal than perhaps it is.
 
Like I saidgoofy.
 


From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Thu, 6 Mar 2008 17:32:34 -0500Subject: [RCSE] " What's 
the big deal about 2.4? - Lag...okay now we are getting silly "To: 
Soaring@airage.com

These two reasons are why I like the 2.4 system.  And I will add one other, the 
response really is better.  For the first time in my flying the plane is doing 
what I want when I want it, I don't have to compensate by anticipating the lag.
 
 
Okay I was waiting for this one.  With a standard FM system, not even a PCM 
System (which by the way is about the same as a 2.4 system...the word 'digital' 
is sort of a hint there)...with a standard FM system the time between a guy 
moving his thumb and the servo beginning its movement is not visible to they 
eye...as it looks immediate.
 
However the indication above implies that the delay in the information getting 
to the servos from the stick is with none digital TX systems, would cause some 
sort of delay in the now pay attentionthe movement of the airframe.
 
Movement of the airframe is not 'only' a function of servo moving servos.  
AIRSPEED is a bigger factor and one that varies the "lag in response" way more 
than any micro second change in the information time from thumb to servo.
 
The next factor is servo speed 'while under their normal surface duties'.  A 
far cheaper way to increase 'response' would have been to get digital servos.
 
Lets not add fluff to an the benefits of a system which in the end is just 
another way to control models.
And in the end the question to the above gleeful reason to own a digital 
systemhow many contests will that faster response time help you win this 
seasonmight be interesting to track compared to last season.
 
Likely any wins won't be due to improved flying skills, it will have to be the 
result of that signal lag which caused slower responses of your sailplane ;-).
 
Freedom is the big reason.   Freedom to turn on anywhere, the park, that empty 
lot, the space next to a factorya park.
 
Gordypretty quick response, hey?


It's Tax Time! Get tips, forms and advice on AOL Money & Finance.
_
Connect and share in new ways with Windows Live.
http://www.windowslive.com/share.html?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_Wave2_sharelife_012008

RE: [RCSE] " What's the big deal about 2.4? - Lag...okay now we are getting silly "

[TDL]

Or 2 A123 in series ;) hehehe

-Original Message-
From: Jon Stone [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2008 2:46 PM
To: soaring@airage.com
Subject: Re: [RCSE] " What's the big deal about 2.4? - Lag...okay now we are
getting silly "



> A far cheaper way to increase 'response' would have been to get  
> digital
servos.

and a 5-cell RX battery pack.

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are generally NOT in text format No virus found in this incoming message.
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Re: [RCSE] " What's the big deal about 2.4? - Lag...okay now we are getting silly "

[Jon Stone]

> A far cheaper way to increase 'response' would have been to get  digital 
servos.

and a 5-cell RX battery pack.

RCSE-List facilities provided by Model Airplane News.  Send "subscribe" and 
"unsubscribe" requests to [EMAIL PROTECTED]  Please note that subscribe and 
unsubscribe messages must be sent in text only format with MIME turned off.  
Email sent from web based email such as Hotmail and AOL are generally NOT in 
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