Re: Houdini : non VFX jobs?

[Jordi Bares]

For the sake of sharing my experiences...

> On 4 May 2018, at 14:24, Morten Bartholdy  wrote:
> 
> Pardon me for intruding, but I have to agree with Jonathan here.
> 
> It used to be that developers worked to make better tools and make them more 
> accessible to the average artist (and I am not talking about Kais Powertools 
> ;), but that path seems to have been abandoned in the pursuit of better and 
> more advanced tools, and letting it up to the users to get a degree in rocket 
> science to be able to wield said tools at all
> 
Tools are getting easier (just look at the new hair system in 16.5 vs 16.0 or 
the new MAT context in order to blend BRDFs properly), complex things are 
simply complex (DOPs for example) and you can’t simplify certain things without 
loosing the whole point or it will take a lot to get there (for example custom 
controls with DOPs records and others)
> Houdini is probably the best example of this. I know a lot of effort has gone 
> in to making it more accessible, but to my knowledge it still requires a fair 
> amount of insight into expression syntax and scripting plus more than basic 
> math end vector knowhow to get even simple things done.
> 
The fact you can add expressions in your fields (something you can’t do in 
softimage) means you don’t need to script as much… so arguably you can choose 
between learning simple expressions or learning to program.

Both require a certain level of simple maths involving trigonometry, vectors 
and matrices. 
> I understand your position (stated in earlier threads) that the increased 
> demands on production requires more complex solutions/tools,
> 
I would say sophisticated rather than complex… for example packed primitives 
allow you to do things that are truly mind-bending in combination with Material 
Style Sheets, but that does not mean they are difficult of full of moving parts.
> but I don't buy the premise that it also has(!) to become more difficult to 
> use.
> 
I don’t think that either.. a good example of sophisticated tools in Houdini 16 
and 16.5 that are a pleasure to work are the new terrain tools… but it is also 
true that unfortunately some problems are complex no matter what.
> Good UI devs could alleviate that and make even really complex stuff 
> accessible to the least technical artist in the room if ressources were made 
> available, ie the management and dev team leads concur it would be a good 
> idea. I am going out on a limb and guessing it might often come down to this 
> – spend ressources on making the tool more accessible or spend them on making 
> more and better tools… In reality I think in all fairness they try and 
> balance it while keeping a keen eye on their userbase and potential for 
> increasing it.
> 
With the UI and UX there is a major point Jeff Wagner explained to me long time 
ago… Houdini is non-linear (branches splitting and mixing again) so many things 
there can be easily put on a linear system (like Softimage) are not possible in 
Houdini and therefore we have to accept certain limitations. Exactly the same 
than ICE, you don’t have many tools making your live eraser in terms of 
workflow inside ICE, you need to know what you are doing.

But it is true also that Softimage vision of ICE is a lot neater, easier and 
element in terms of packaging functionality in ICE… A LOT BETTER IN FACT.
> What remains is that people like me find Houdini way too technical for 
> practical use (the steep learning curve) and as such I have not delved into 
> it for real yet.
> 
May be that is what makes you feel it is complex...
> I will for sure, because I think it is probably the only major 3D DCC which 
> is really evolving and making groundbreaking tools available to the users, so 
> it will very likely inherit the world, but for me, and probably many others, 
> as Jonathan probably indicates, it would do so much faster if it was made 
> even easier to use :)
> 
Agreed, there are many things that should be a lot easier because you do them 
all the time (like path deform for example, or layering animation, or having a 
shape manager and others) but don’t be mistaken, it is not difficult at all 
until you need to dive in certain areas.
> And that would mean I would get to spend less time in Maya which honestly 
> makes me short of breath to the point of needing to vomit, almost every day.
> 
Well, then I can guarantee you you will age slower.  ;-)

Peace and have a great weekend.
jb

PS. I am thinking… would it be of interest for you guys if I talk to SideFX to 
organise a crash course in Houdini for Softimage users? May be replicating one 
of the old XSI tutorials live in Houdini??? I still love those tutorials… 
remember the carnivore plant?

> Just my two kr (the coin we use here)
> 
> Have a nice weekend all – Morten
> 
> Den 3. maj 2018 klokken 19:17 skrev Jordi Bares :
> 
> And by my judgement, Houdini is no closer to being a generalist replacement 
> 

Re: Houdini : non VFX jobs?

[Jonathan Moore]

To interject once more. I love Houdini, I love it's power and flexibility.
And I find VEX & VOPs more logical and efficient than ICE.

But when I speak of Houdini not being a 'generalist' replacement for
Softimage, I'd describe why, via the following catch all proposition.

*Houdini makes complex tasks relatively easy, but equally in makes simple
tasks relatively complex.*

3ds Max and Cinema 4d are nowhere near as powerful and flexible as Houdini,
Maya or Softimage, but they succeed in making the majority of typical
tasks, intuitive and artist friendly for the audiences they each cater to.
Softimage was the last of it's kind. A DCC that functioned equally well at
making complex tasks relatively easy and and the majority of tasks
intuitive and truly artist friendly.

On 4 May 2018 at 14:24, Morten Bartholdy  wrote:

> Pardon me for intruding, but I have to agree with Jonathan here.
>
> It used to be that developers worked to make better tools and make them
> more accessible to the average artist (and I am not talking about Kais
> Powertools ;), but that path seems to have been abandoned in the pursuit of
> better and more advanced tools, and letting it up to the users to get a
> degree in rocket science to be able to wield said tools at all.
>
> Houdini is probably the best example of this. I know a lot of effort has
> gone in to making it more accessible, but to my knowledge it still requires
> a fair amount of insight into expression syntax and scripting plus more
> than basic math end vector knowhow to get even simple things done.
>
> I understand your position (stated in earlier threads) that the increased
> demands on production requires more complex solutions/tools, but I don't
> buy the premise that it also has(!) to become more difficult to use. Good
> UI devs could alleviate that and make even really complex stuff accessible
> to the least technical artist in the room if ressources were made
> available, ie the management and dev team leads concur it would be a good
> idea. I am going out on a limb and guessing it might often come down to
> this – spend ressources on making the tool more accessible or spend them on
> making more and better tools… In reality I think in all fairness they try
> and balance it while keeping a keen eye on their userbase and potential for
> increasing it.
>
> What remains is that people like me find Houdini way too technical for
> practical use (the steep learning curve) and as such I have not delved into
> it for real yet. I will for sure, because I think it is probably the only
> major 3D DCC which is really evolving and making groundbreaking tools
> available to the users, so it will very likely inherit the world, but for
> me, and probably many others, as Jonathan probably indicates, it would do
> so much faster if it was made even easier to use :)
>
> And that would mean I would get to spend less time in Maya which honestly
> makes me short of breath to the point of needing to vomit, almost every day.
>
> Just my two kr (the coin we use here)
>
> Have a nice weekend all – Morten
>
> Den 3. maj 2018 klokken 19:17 skrev Jordi Bares :
>
> And by my judgement, Houdini is no closer to being a generalist
> replacement for Softimage.
>
> This is what I would love to understand if you don’t mind…
>
> jb
>
> -- Softimage Mailing List. To unsubscribe, send a mail to
> softimage-requ...@listproc.autodesk.com with “unsubscribe” in the
> subject, and reply to confirm.
>
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Re: Houdini : non VFX jobs?

[Morten Bartholdy]

Pardon me for intruding, but I have to agree with Jonathan here.

It used to be that developers worked to make better tools and make them more 
accessible to the average artist (and I am not talking about Kais Powertools 
;), but that path seems to have been abandoned in the pursuit of better and 
more advanced tools, and letting it up to the users to get a degree in rocket 
science to be able to wield said tools at all.

Houdini is probably the best example of this. I know a lot of effort has gone 
in to making it more accessible, but to my knowledge it still requires a fair 
amount of insight into expression syntax and scripting plus more than basic 
math end vector knowhow to get even simple things done.

I understand your position (stated in earlier threads) that the increased 
demands on production requires more complex solutions/tools, but I don't buy 
the premise that it also has(!) to become more difficult to use. Good UI devs 
could alleviate that and make even really complex stuff accessible to the least 
technical artist in the room if ressources were made available, ie the 
management and dev team leads concur it would be a good idea. I am going out on 
a limb and guessing it might often come down to this - spend ressources on 
making the tool more accessible or spend them on making more and better 
tools... In reality I think in all fairness they try and balance it while 
keeping a keen eye on their userbase and potential for increasing it.

What remains is that people like me find Houdini way too technical for 
practical use (the steep learning curve) and as such I have not delved into it 
for real yet. I will for sure, because I think it is probably the only major 3D 
DCC which is really evolving and making groundbreaking tools available to the 
users, so it will very likely inherit the world, but for me, and probably many 
others, as Jonathan probably indicates, it would do so much faster if it was 
made even easier to use :)

And that would mean I would get to spend less time in Maya which honestly makes 
me short of breath to the point of needing to vomit, almost every day.

Just my two kr (the coin we use here)


Have a nice weekend all - Morten







> Den 3. maj 2018 klokken 19:17 skrev Jordi Bares :
> 
> 
> 
> 
> > And by my judgement, Houdini is no closer to being a generalist replacement 
> > for Softimage.
> 
> This is what I would love to understand if you don’t mind… 
> 
> jb
> 
> --
> Softimage Mailing List.
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> "unsubscribe" in the subject, and reply to confirm.

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Re: Houdini : non VFX jobs?

[Jonathan Moore]

>
> Sounds like a good idea.. have you been around Chancery Lane pubs?? Fancy
> meeting??? It is really cool area


I used to work just round the corner in Smithfields so I know the area
reasonably well. But not likely to be in London over the next couple of
weeks (live and work in Northamptonshire these days). But I'll definitely
give you a ping a few weeks in advance next time I'm likely to be in
London. There's a HUG (Houdini user group) in London that one of the chaps
on the Discord organises. Maybe that would work?


On 4 May 2018 at 09:30, Jordi Bares  wrote:

>
> On 3 May 2018, at 18:24, Jonathan Moore  wrote:
>
> This is what I would love to understand if you don’t mind…
>
>
> A conversation best partnered with pint's of ale to fuel the conversation
> at some point. :)
>
>
> Sounds like a good idea.. have you been around Chancery Lane pubs?? Fancy
> meeting??? It is really cool area
>
> jb
>
>
> On 3 May 2018 at 18:17, Jordi Bares  wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> And by my judgement, Houdini is no closer to being a generalist
>> replacement for Softimage.
>>
>>
>> This is what I would love to understand if you don’t mind…
>>
>> jb
>>
>>
>> --
>> Softimage Mailing List.
>> To unsubscribe, send a mail to softimage-requ...@listproc.autodesk.com with
>> "unsubscribe" in the subject, and reply to confirm.
>>
>
>  --
> Softimage Mailing List.
> To unsubscribe, send a mail to softimage-requ...@listproc.autodesk.com with
> "unsubscribe" in the subject, and reply to confirm.
>
>
>
> --
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> with "unsubscribe" in the subject, and reply to confirm.
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Re: Houdini : non VFX jobs?

[Alex Doss]

ex-soft? quite a foot on the chest man... lol

On 4 May 2018 at 14:03, Fabricio Chamon  wrote:

> Houdini conversation with ex-soft people in a pub...sounds like a cool
> place to be. =)
>
> I’m London atm (and for the next week), if anybody is keen for a beer or
> two...let me know
>
> Cheers
>
> Em sex, 4 de mai de 2018 às 09:30, Jordi Bares 
> escreveu:
>
>> On 3 May 2018, at 18:24, Jonathan Moore 
>> wrote:
>>
>> This is what I would love to understand if you don’t mind…
>>
>>
>> A conversation best partnered with pint's of ale to fuel the conversation
>> at some point. :)
>>
>>
>> Sounds like a good idea.. have you been around Chancery Lane pubs?? Fancy
>> meeting??? It is really cool area
>>
>> jb
>>
>>
>> On 3 May 2018 at 18:17, Jordi Bares  wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> And by my judgement, Houdini is no closer to being a generalist
>>> replacement for Softimage.
>>>
>>>
>>> This is what I would love to understand if you don’t mind…
>>>
>>> jb
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Softimage Mailing List.
>>> To unsubscribe, send a mail to softimage-requ...@listproc.autodesk.com with
>>> "unsubscribe" in the subject, and reply to confirm.
>>>
>>
>>  --
>> Softimage Mailing List.
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>> "unsubscribe" in the subject, and reply to confirm.
>>
>>
>> --
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>> with "unsubscribe" in the subject, and reply to confirm.
>
>
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> with "unsubscribe" in the subject, and reply to confirm.
>



-- 
Alex Doss
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web: www.alexdoss.com
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Re: Houdini : non VFX jobs?

[Fabricio Chamon]

Houdini conversation with ex-soft people in a pub...sounds like a cool
place to be. =)

I’m London atm (and for the next week), if anybody is keen for a beer or
two...let me know

Cheers

Em sex, 4 de mai de 2018 às 09:30, Jordi Bares 
escreveu:

> On 3 May 2018, at 18:24, Jonathan Moore  wrote:
>
> This is what I would love to understand if you don’t mind…
>
>
> A conversation best partnered with pint's of ale to fuel the conversation
> at some point. :)
>
>
> Sounds like a good idea.. have you been around Chancery Lane pubs?? Fancy
> meeting??? It is really cool area
>
> jb
>
>
> On 3 May 2018 at 18:17, Jordi Bares  wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> And by my judgement, Houdini is no closer to being a generalist
>> replacement for Softimage.
>>
>>
>> This is what I would love to understand if you don’t mind…
>>
>> jb
>>
>>
>> --
>> Softimage Mailing List.
>> To unsubscribe, send a mail to softimage-requ...@listproc.autodesk.com with
>> "unsubscribe" in the subject, and reply to confirm.
>>
>
>  --
> Softimage Mailing List.
> To unsubscribe, send a mail to softimage-requ...@listproc.autodesk.com with
> "unsubscribe" in the subject, and reply to confirm.
>
>
> --
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Re: Houdini : non VFX jobs?

[Jordi Bares]

> On 3 May 2018, at 18:24, Jonathan Moore  wrote:
> 
> This is what I would love to understand if you don’t mind… 
> 
> A conversation best partnered with pint's of ale to fuel the conversation at 
> some point. :)

Sounds like a good idea.. have you been around Chancery Lane pubs?? Fancy 
meeting??? It is really cool area

jb

> 
> On 3 May 2018 at 18:17, Jordi Bares  > wrote:
> 
> 
>> And by my judgement, Houdini is no closer to being a generalist replacement 
>> for Softimage.
> 
> This is what I would love to understand if you don’t mind… 
> 
> jb
> 
> 
> 
> --
> Softimage Mailing List.
> To unsubscribe, send a mail to softimage-requ...@listproc.autodesk.com 
>  with "unsubscribe" in the 
> subject, and reply to confirm.
> 
>  --
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> To unsubscribe, send a mail to softimage-requ...@listproc.autodesk.com 
>  with "unsubscribe" in the 
> subject, and reply to confirm.

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