RE: DQ Deformation compound and scaling...
Right, the shipped version 3.0 should support scaling, but it doesn't handle animated bone length. gray From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Ahmidou Lyazidi Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2013 12:42 AM To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Subject: Re: DQ Deformation compound and scaling... At some point the factory compound was updated to support scaling. The current version of the scaling compound is 3.0 which one are you using ? --- Ahmidou Lyazidi Director | TD | CG artist http://vimeo.com/ahmidou/videos http://www.cappuccino-films.com 2013/11/12 Raffaele Fragapane raffsxsil...@googlemail.commailto:raffsxsil...@googlemail.com By default DQ doesn't consider scaling. The original paper omits it too as it's not that common at bone anim level in games (which is what the paper focused on). We had the same issue with the DQ compounds when they were offered and we tested them, so we ended up cooking our own to account for scaling. It's not that hard to do, but it's more than just adding scaling up or downstream from DQ unaltered. As it's work done for Animal I can't disclose details, sorry about that, but if it's worth anything to you to know: it's perfectly possible with no noticeable effect on performance and not particularly hard to do. On Tue, Nov 12, 2013 at 8:16 AM, Sergio Mucino sergio.muc...@modusfx.commailto:sergio.muc...@modusfx.com wrote: I have an interesting issue at hand. It seems that the shipping Dual Quaternion Deformation ICE compound does not take into account scaling. I'm using it for one of our rigs, and scaling down the rig scales things properly, but the deformations on the mesh are still being calculated in a non-scaled space, it seems (they are quite exaggerated when the rig is scaled down). First, I thought I could try fixing it myself by multiplying the calculated deformations by the scale factor from the rig, but that didn't work. I googled a bit, and found a Dual Quaternion Deformations 2 compound, which seems to support scaling. I downloaded it, but it made no difference. Taking a closer look at it, it's doing exactly what we were doing here to fix the first compound (taking the matrix from the mesh, inverting it, and multiplying it by the vector coming from the skinning nodes), but it made no difference. The deformations are still not scaling down. I turned off the ICE tree and re-enabled my envelope (it's still there, I just mute it when enabling the ICE tree), and the deformations are ok there (I just need to use DQ on this mesh, that's why I'm not using the envelope), but re-enabling the ICE DQ deformer gives me the wrong deformations. Has anyone seen this before? Any known cures for this ailment? Thanks! -- [cid:image001.gif@01CEDF9E.37293F80] -- Our users will know fear and cower before our software! Ship it! Ship it and let them flee like the dogs they are! attachment: winmail.dat
Re: DQ Deformation compound and scaling...
How would I be able to check this? I'm using the stock compound that comes with SI 2012, and the one we got from the web called "Dual Quaternion Deformation.2.0.xsicompound". The latter didn't improve things. On 12/11/2013 12:42 AM, Ahmidou Lyazidi wrote: At some point the factory compound was updated to support scaling. The current version of the scaling compound is 3.0 which one are you using ? --- Ahmidou Lyazidi Director | TD | CG artist http://vimeo.com/ahmidou/videos http://www.cappuccino-films.com 2013/11/12 Raffaele Fragapane raffsxsil...@googlemail.com By default DQ doesn't consider scaling. The original paper omits it too as it's not that common at bone anim level in games (which is what the paper focused on). We had the same issue with the DQ compounds when they were offered and we tested them, so we ended up cooking our own to account for scaling. It's not that hard to do, but it's more than just adding scaling up or downstream from DQ unaltered. As it's work done for Animal I can't disclose details, sorry about that, but if it's worth anything to you to know: it's perfectly possible with no noticeable effect on performance and not particularly hard to do. On Tue, Nov 12, 2013 at 8:16 AM, Sergio Mucino sergio.muc...@modusfx.com wrote: I have an interesting issue at hand. It seems that the shipping Dual Quaternion Deformation ICE compound does not take into account scaling. I'm using it for one of our rigs, and scaling down the rig scales things properly, but the deformations on the mesh are still being calculated in a non-scaled space, it seems (they are quite exaggerated when the rig is scaled down). First, I thought I could try fixing it myself by multiplying the calculated deformations by the scale factor from the rig, but that didn't work. I googled a bit, and found a Dual Quaternion Deformations 2 compound, which seems to support scaling. I downloaded it, but it made no difference. Taking a closer look at it, it's doing exactly what we were doing here to fix the first compound (taking the matrix from the mesh, inverting it, and multiplying it by the vector coming from the skinning nodes), but it made no difference. The deformations are still not scaling down. I turned off the ICE tree and re-enabled my envelope (it's still there, I just mute it when enabling the ICE tree), and the deformations are ok there (I just need to use DQ on this mesh, that's why I'm not using the envelope), but re-enabling the ICE DQ deformer gives me the wrong deformations. Has anyone seen this before? Any known cures for this ailment? Thanks! -- -- Our users will know fear and cower before our software! Ship it! Ship it and let them flee like the dogs they are!
Re: DQ Deformation compound and scaling...
Thanks Raffaele! We'll keep investigating. Cheers! On 11/11/2013 11:48 PM, Raffaele Fragapane wrote: By default DQ doesn't consider scaling. The original paper omits it too as it's not that common at bone anim level in games (which is what the paper focused on). We had the same issue with the DQ compounds when they were offered and we tested them, so we ended up cooking our own to account for scaling. It's not that hard to do, but it's more than just adding scaling up or downstream from DQ unaltered. As it's work done for Animal I can't disclose details, sorry about that, but if it's worth anything to you to know: it's perfectly possible with no noticeable effect on performance and not particularly hard to do. On Tue, Nov 12, 2013 at 8:16 AM, Sergio Mucino sergio.muc...@modusfx.com wrote: I have an interesting issue at hand. It seems that the shipping Dual Quaternion Deformation ICE compound does not take into account scaling. I'm using it for one of our rigs, and scaling down the rig scales things properly, but the deformations on the mesh are still being calculated in a non-scaled space, it seems (they are quite exaggerated when the rig is scaled down). First, I thought I could try fixing it myself by multiplying the calculated deformations by the scale factor from the rig, but that didn't work. I googled a bit, and found a Dual Quaternion Deformations 2 compound, which seems to support scaling. I downloaded it, but it made no difference. Taking a closer look at it, it's doing exactly what we were doing here to fix the first compound (taking the matrix from the mesh, inverting it, and multiplying it by the vector coming from the skinning nodes), but it made no difference. The deformations are still not scaling down. I turned off the ICE tree and re-enabled my envelope (it's still there, I just mute it when enabling the ICE tree), and the deformations are ok there (I just need to use DQ on this mesh, that's why I'm not using the envelope), but re-enabling the ICE DQ deformer gives me the wrong deformations. Has anyone seen this before? Any known cures for this ailment? Thanks! -- -- Our users will know fear and cower before our software! Ship it! Ship it and let them flee like the dogs they are!
Re: DQ Deformation compound and scaling...
I guess you're talking about SI 2014. We're on 2012, so no go for us on this one. Thanks! Still good to know. On 12/11/2013 11:56 AM, Grahame Fuller wrote: Right, the shipped version 3.0 should support scaling, but it doesn't handle animated bone length. gray From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Ahmidou Lyazidi Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2013 12:42 AM To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Subject: Re: DQ Deformation compound and scaling... At some point the factory compound was updated to support scaling. The current version of the scaling compound is 3.0 which one are you using ? --- Ahmidou Lyazidi Director | TD | CG artist http://vimeo.com/ahmidou/videos http://www.cappuccino-films.com 2013/11/12 Raffaele Fragapane raffsxsil...@googlemail.commailto:raffsxsil...@googlemail.com By default DQ doesn't consider scaling. The original paper omits it too as it's not that common at bone anim level in games (which is what the paper focused on). We had the same issue with the DQ compounds when they were offered and we tested them, so we ended up cooking our own to account for scaling. It's not that hard to do, but it's more than just adding scaling up or downstream from DQ unaltered. As it's work done for Animal I can't disclose details, sorry about that, but if it's worth anything to you to know: it's perfectly possible with no noticeable effect on performance and not particularly hard to do. On Tue, Nov 12, 2013 at 8:16 AM, Sergio Mucino sergio.muc...@modusfx.commailto:sergio.muc...@modusfx.com wrote: I have an interesting issue at hand. It seems that the shipping Dual Quaternion Deformation ICE compound does not take into account scaling. I'm using it for one of our rigs, and scaling down the rig scales things properly, but the deformations on the mesh are still being calculated in a non-scaled space, it seems (they are quite exaggerated when the rig is scaled down). First, I thought I could try fixing it myself by multiplying the calculated deformations by the scale factor from the rig, but that didn't work. I googled a bit, and found a Dual Quaternion Deformations 2 compound, which seems to support scaling. I downloaded it, but it made no difference. Taking a closer look at it, it's doing exactly what we were doing here to fix the first compound (taking the matrix from the mesh, inverting it, and multiplying it by the vector coming from the skinning nodes), but it made no difference. The deformations are still not scaling down. I turned off the ICE tree and re-enabled my envelope (it's still there, I just mute it when enabling the ICE tree), and the deformations are ok there (I just need to use DQ on this mesh, that's why I'm not using the envelope), but re-enabling the ICE DQ deformer gives me the wrong deformations. Has anyone seen this before? Any known cures for this ailment? Thanks! -- [cid:image001.gif@01CEDF9E.37293F80] -- Our users will know fear and cower before our software! Ship it! Ship it and let them flee like the dogs they are!
Re: DQ Deformation compound and scaling...
Disney gave a talk at Siggraph this year about their implementation of DQ.
I haven't checked, but if you're lucky the talk material might be up on the ACM
library.
http://s2013.siggraph.org/attendees/talks/events/enhanced-dual-quaternion-skinning-production-use
On Tuesday, November 12, 2013, Sergio Mucino wrote:
Thanks Raffaele! We'll keep investigating. Cheers!
On 11/11/2013 11:48 PM, Raffaele Fragapane wrote:
By default DQ doesn't consider scaling. The original paper omits it too as
it's not that common at bone anim level in games (which is what the paper
focused on).
We had the same issue with the DQ compounds when they were offered and
we tested them, so we ended up cooking our own to account for scaling. It's
not that hard to do, but it's more than just adding scaling up or
downstream from DQ unaltered.
As it's work done for Animal I can't disclose details, sorry about that,
but if it's worth anything to you to know: it's perfectly possible with no
noticeable effect on performance and not particularly hard to do.
On Tue, Nov 12, 2013 at 8:16 AM, Sergio Mucino
sergio.muc...@modusfx.comjavascript:_e({}, 'cvml',
'sergio.muc...@modusfx.com');
wrote:
I have an interesting issue at hand. It seems that the shipping Dual
Quaternion Deformation ICE compound does not take into account scaling. I'm
using it for one of our rigs, and scaling down the rig scales things
properly, but the deformations on the mesh are still being calculated in a
non-scaled space, it seems (they are quite exaggerated when the rig is
scaled down).
First, I thought I could try fixing it myself by multiplying the
calculated deformations by the scale factor from the rig, but that didn't
work. I googled a bit, and found a Dual Quaternion Deformations 2 compound,
which seems to support scaling. I downloaded it, but it made no difference.
Taking a closer look at it, it's doing exactly what we were doing here to
fix the first compound (taking the matrix from the mesh, inverting it, and
multiplying it by the vector coming from the skinning nodes), but it made
no difference. The deformations are still not scaling down.
I turned off the ICE tree and re-enabled my envelope (it's still there, I
just mute it when enabling the ICE tree), and the deformations are ok there
(I just need to use DQ on this mesh, that's why I'm not using the
envelope), but re-enabling the ICE DQ deformer gives me the wrong
deformations.
Has anyone seen this before? Any known cures for this ailment? Thanks!
--
--
Our users will know fear and cower before our software! Ship it! Ship it
and let them flee like the dogs they are!
--
Technical Director @ DreamWorks Animation
Sergio Mucino_Signature_email.gifimage/gif
RE: DQ Deformation compound and scaling...
V3.0 was added quite a while ago. Right-click on the compound in the preset manager and choose Open Containing Folder. What's the version number on the file name? gray From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Sergio Mucino Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2013 11:58 AM To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Subject: Re: DQ Deformation compound and scaling... I guess you're talking about SI 2014. We're on 2012, so no go for us on this one. Thanks! Still good to know. [cid:image001.gif@01CEDFA0.08A007F0] On 12/11/2013 11:56 AM, Grahame Fuller wrote: Right, the shipped version 3.0 should support scaling, but it doesn't handle animated bone length. gray From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.commailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Ahmidou Lyazidi Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2013 12:42 AM To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.commailto:softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Subject: Re: DQ Deformation compound and scaling... At some point the factory compound was updated to support scaling. The current version of the scaling compound is 3.0 which one are you using ? --- Ahmidou Lyazidi Director | TD | CG artist http://vimeo.com/ahmidou/videos http://www.cappuccino-films.com 2013/11/12 Raffaele Fragapane raffsxsil...@googlemail.commailto:raffsxsil...@googlemail.commailto:raffsxsil...@googlemail.commailto:raffsxsil...@googlemail.com By default DQ doesn't consider scaling. The original paper omits it too as it's not that common at bone anim level in games (which is what the paper focused on). We had the same issue with the DQ compounds when they were offered and we tested them, so we ended up cooking our own to account for scaling. It's not that hard to do, but it's more than just adding scaling up or downstream from DQ unaltered. As it's work done for Animal I can't disclose details, sorry about that, but if it's worth anything to you to know: it's perfectly possible with no noticeable effect on performance and not particularly hard to do. On Tue, Nov 12, 2013 at 8:16 AM, Sergio Mucino sergio.muc...@modusfx.commailto:sergio.muc...@modusfx.commailto:sergio.muc...@modusfx.commailto:sergio.muc...@modusfx.com wrote: I have an interesting issue at hand. It seems that the shipping Dual Quaternion Deformation ICE compound does not take into account scaling. I'm using it for one of our rigs, and scaling down the rig scales things properly, but the deformations on the mesh are still being calculated in a non-scaled space, it seems (they are quite exaggerated when the rig is scaled down). First, I thought I could try fixing it myself by multiplying the calculated deformations by the scale factor from the rig, but that didn't work. I googled a bit, and found a Dual Quaternion Deformations 2 compound, which seems to support scaling. I downloaded it, but it made no difference. Taking a closer look at it, it's doing exactly what we were doing here to fix the first compound (taking the matrix from the mesh, inverting it, and multiplying it by the vector coming from the skinning nodes), but it made no difference. The deformations are still not scaling down. I turned off the ICE tree and re-enabled my envelope (it's still there, I just mute it when enabling the ICE tree), and the deformations are ok there (I just need to use DQ on this mesh, that's why I'm not using the envelope), but re-enabling the ICE DQ deformer gives me the wrong deformations. Has anyone seen this before? Any known cures for this ailment? Thanks! -- [cid:image001.gif@01CEDF9E.37293F80] -- Our users will know fear and cower before our software! Ship it! Ship it and let them flee like the dogs they are! attachment: winmail.dat
Re: DQ Deformation compound and scaling...
Hmmm... interesting. There are three DQ compounds in there. What would appear to be a 1.0 (since it has no version number), a 2.2, and a 3.0. There are differences internally for each compound version, and after examining the files I've been working on, it seems we've been using v3.0 (even though there are three DQ compounds in the folder, only one is displayed in SI's node list, which I guess means SI will list the one with the highest version number). On 12/11/2013 12:09 PM, Grahame Fuller wrote: V3.0 was added quite a while ago. Right-click on the compound in the preset manager and choose Open Containing Folder. What's the version number on the file name? gray From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Sergio Mucino Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2013 11:58 AM To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Subject: Re: DQ Deformation compound and scaling... I guess you're talking about SI 2014. We're on 2012, so no go for us on this one. Thanks! Still good to know. [cid:image001.gif@01CEDFA0.08A007F0] On 12/11/2013 11:56 AM, Grahame Fuller wrote: Right, the shipped version 3.0 should support scaling, but it doesn't handle animated bone length. gray From: softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.commailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Ahmidou Lyazidi Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2013 12:42 AM To: softimage@listproc.autodesk.commailto:softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Subject: Re: DQ Deformation compound and scaling... At some point the factory compound was updated to support scaling. The current version of the scaling compound is 3.0 which one are you using ? --- Ahmidou Lyazidi Director | TD | CG artist http://vimeo.com/ahmidou/videos http://www.cappuccino-films.com 2013/11/12 Raffaele Fragapane raffsxsil...@googlemail.commailto:raffsxsil...@googlemail.commailto:raffsxsil...@googlemail.commailto:raffsxsil...@googlemail.com By default DQ doesn't consider scaling. The original paper omits it too as it's not that common at bone anim level in games (which is what the paper focused on). We had the same issue with the DQ compounds when they were offered and we tested them, so we ended up cooking our own to account for scaling. It's not that hard to do, but it's more than just adding scaling up or downstream from DQ unaltered. As it's work done for Animal I can't disclose details, sorry about that, but if it's worth anything to you to know: it's perfectly possible with no noticeable effect on performance and not particularly hard to do. On Tue, Nov 12, 2013 at 8:16 AM, Sergio Mucino sergio.muc...@modusfx.commailto:sergio.muc...@modusfx.commailto:sergio.muc...@modusfx.commailto:sergio.muc...@modusfx.com wrote: I have an interesting issue at hand. It seems that the shipping Dual Quaternion Deformation ICE compound does not take into account scaling. I'm using it for one of our rigs, and scaling down the rig scales things properly, but the deformations on the mesh are still being calculated in a non-scaled space, it seems (they are quite exaggerated when the rig is scaled down). First, I thought I could try fixing it myself by multiplying the calculated deformations by the scale factor from the rig, but that didn't work. I googled a bit, and found a Dual Quaternion Deformations 2 compound, which seems to support scaling. I downloaded it, but it made no difference. Taking a closer look at it, it's doing exactly what we were doing here to fix the first compound (taking the matrix from the mesh, inverting it, and multiplying it by the vector coming from the skinning nodes), but it made no difference. The deformations are still not scaling down. I turned off the ICE tree and re-enabled my envelope (it's still there, I just mute it when enabling the ICE tree), and the deformations are ok there (I just need to use DQ on this mesh, that's why I'm not using the envelope), but re-enabling the ICE DQ deformer gives me the wrong deformations. Has anyone seen this before? Any known cures for this ailment? Thanks! -- [cid:image001.gif@01CEDF9E.37293F80] -- Our users will know fear and cower before our software! Ship it! Ship it and let them flee like the dogs they are!
Re: DQ Deformation compound and scaling...
After you import an ICE Compound to the ICE Tree, right click on the node and go to properties. You can see the version number in there. Yes the highest versioned compound is used as well. The rig is probably changing bone lengths instead of scaling which is probably where you're hitting the problems. On Tuesday, November 12, 2013 1:06:06 PM, Sergio Mucino wrote: Hmmm... interesting. There are three DQ compounds in there. What would appear to be a 1.0 (since it has no version number), a 2.2, and a 3.0. There are differences internally for each compound version, and after examining the files I've been working on, it seems we've been using v3.0 (even though there are three DQ compounds in the folder, only one is displayed in SI's node list, which I guess means SI will list the one with the highest version number). On 12/11/2013 12:09 PM, Grahame Fuller wrote: V3.0 was added quite a while ago. Right-click on the compound in the preset manager and choose Open Containing Folder. What's the version number on the file name? gray From:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Sergio Mucino Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2013 11:58 AM To:softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Subject: Re: DQ Deformation compound and scaling... I guess you're talking about SI 2014. We're on 2012, so no go for us on this one. Thanks! Still good to know. [cid:image001.gif@01CEDFA0.08A007F0] On 12/11/2013 11:56 AM, Grahame Fuller wrote: Right, the shipped version 3.0 should support scaling, but it doesn't handle animated bone length. gray From:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.commailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Ahmidou Lyazidi Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2013 12:42 AM To:softimage@listproc.autodesk.commailto:softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Subject: Re: DQ Deformation compound and scaling... At some point the factory compound was updated to support scaling. The current version of the scaling compound is 3.0 which one are you using ? --- Ahmidou Lyazidi Director | TD | CG artist http://vimeo.com/ahmidou/videos http://www.cappuccino-films.com 2013/11/12 Raffaele Fragapane raffsxsil...@googlemail.commailto:raffsxsil...@googlemail.commailto:raffsxsil...@googlemail.commailto:raffsxsil...@googlemail.com By default DQ doesn't consider scaling. The original paper omits it too as it's not that common at bone anim level in games (which is what the paper focused on). We had the same issue with the DQ compounds when they were offered and we tested them, so we ended up cooking our own to account for scaling. It's not that hard to do, but it's more than just adding scaling up or downstream from DQ unaltered. As it's work done for Animal I can't disclose details, sorry about that, but if it's worth anything to you to know: it's perfectly possible with no noticeable effect on performance and not particularly hard to do. On Tue, Nov 12, 2013 at 8:16 AM, Sergio Mucino sergio.muc...@modusfx.commailto:sergio.muc...@modusfx.commailto:sergio.muc...@modusfx.commailto:sergio.muc...@modusfx.com wrote: I have an interesting issue at hand. It seems that the shipping Dual Quaternion Deformation ICE compound does not take into account scaling. I'm using it for one of our rigs, and scaling down the rig scales things properly, but the deformations on the mesh are still being calculated in a non-scaled space, it seems (they are quite exaggerated when the rig is scaled down). First, I thought I could try fixing it myself by multiplying the calculated deformations by the scale factor from the rig, but that didn't work. I googled a bit, and found a Dual Quaternion Deformations 2 compound, which seems to support scaling. I downloaded it, but it made no difference. Taking a closer look at it, it's doing exactly what we were doing here to fix the first compound (taking the matrix from the mesh, inverting it, and multiplying it by the vector coming from the skinning nodes), but it made no difference. The deformations are still not scaling down. I turned off the ICE tree and re-enabled my envelope (it's still there, I just mute it when enabling the ICE tree), and the deformations are ok there (I just need to use DQ on this mesh, that's why I'm not using the envelope), but re-enabling the ICE DQ deformer gives me the wrong deformations. Has anyone seen this before? Any known cures for this ailment? Thanks! -- [cid:image001.gif@01CEDF9E.37293F80] -- Our users will know fear and cower before our software! Ship it! Ship it and let them flee like the dogs they are!
Re: DQ Deformation compound and scaling...
Comments below... On 12/11/2013 1:11 PM, Eric Thivierge wrote: After you import an ICE Compound to the ICE Tree, right click on the node and go to properties. You can see the version number in there. Yes the highest versioned compound is used as well. [SM]: Ah, nice! There's also a little sub-menu from where I can apparently switch version numbers... neat! The rig is probably changing bone lengths instead of scaling which is probably where you're hitting the problems. [SM]: The deformers are actually a bunch of nulls that are constrained to objects constrained to other objects that are constrained to a path (it'd take me time to explain the entire rig... this is just a part concerning the deformers). The scaling is handled by a master control at the top of the hierarchy, and the rig elements inherit the scale change. Everything works fine, and if I stick to using linear deformations (using an envelope operator), things are peachy. The problems start when I disable the envelope operator and use the DQ node in ICE instead. On Tuesday, November 12, 2013 1:06:06 PM, Sergio Mucino wrote: Hmmm... interesting. There are three DQ compounds in there. What would appear to be a 1.0 (since it has no version number), a 2.2, and a 3.0. There are differences internally for each compound version, and after examining the files I've been working on, it seems we've been using v3.0 (even though there are three DQ compounds in the folder, only one is displayed in SI's node list, which I guess means SI will list the one with the highest version number). On 12/11/2013 12:09 PM, Grahame Fuller wrote: V3.0 was added quite a while ago. Right-click on the compound in the preset manager and choose Open Containing Folder. What's the version number on the file name? gray From:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Sergio Mucino Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2013 11:58 AM To:softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Subject: Re: DQ Deformation compound and scaling... I guess you're talking about SI 2014. We're on 2012, so no go for us on this one. Thanks! Still good to know. [cid:image001.gif@01CEDFA0.08A007F0] On 12/11/2013 11:56 AM, Grahame Fuller wrote: Right, the shipped version 3.0 should support scaling, but it doesn't handle animated bone length. gray From:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.commailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Ahmidou Lyazidi Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2013 12:42 AM To:softimage@listproc.autodesk.commailto:softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Subject: Re: DQ Deformation compound and scaling... At some point the factory compound was updated to support scaling. The current version of the scaling compound is 3.0 which one are you using ? --- Ahmidou Lyazidi Director | TD | CG artist http://vimeo.com/ahmidou/videos http://www.cappuccino-films.com 2013/11/12 Raffaele Fragapane raffsxsil...@googlemail.commailto:raffsxsil...@googlemail.commailto:raffsxsil...@googlemail.commailto:raffsxsil...@googlemail.com By default DQ doesn't consider scaling. The original paper omits it too as it's not that common at bone anim level in games (which is what the paper focused on). We had the same issue with the DQ compounds when they were offered and we tested them, so we ended up cooking our own to account for scaling. It's not that hard to do, but it's more than just adding scaling up or downstream from DQ unaltered. As it's work done for Animal I can't disclose
Re: DQ Deformation compound and scaling...
No need to worry about this for now anymore. We tested a linear deformation rig (standard envelope), and the animator much preferred it to the ICE/DQ rig, so we'll leave it at that. We live to fight another day! Thanks a lot everyone! On 12/11/2013 1:25 PM, Sergio Mucino wrote: Comments below... On 12/11/2013 1:11 PM, Eric Thivierge wrote: After you import an ICE Compound to the ICE Tree, right click on the node and go to properties. You can see the version number in there. Yes the highest versioned compound is used as well. [SM]: Ah, nice! There's also a little sub-menu from where I can apparently switch version numbers... neat! The rig is probably changing bone lengths instead of scaling which is probably where you're hitting the problems. [SM]: The deformers are actually a bunch of nulls that are constrained to objects constrained to other objects that are constrained to a path (it'd take me time to explain the entire rig... this is just a part concerning the deformers). The scaling is handled by a master control at the top of the hierarchy, and the rig elements inherit the scale change. Everything works fine, and if I stick to using linear deformations (using an envelope operator), things are peachy. The problems start when I disable the envelope operator and use the DQ node in ICE instead. On Tuesday, November 12, 2013 1:06:06 PM, Sergio Mucino wrote: Hmmm... interesting. There are three DQ compounds in there. What would appear to be a 1.0 (since it has no version number), a 2.2, and a 3.0. There are differences internally for each compound version, and after examining the files I've been working on, it seems we've been using v3.0 (even though there are three DQ compounds in the folder, only one is displayed in SI's node list, which I guess means SI will list the one with the highest version number). On 12/11/2013 12:09 PM, Grahame Fuller wrote: V3.0 was added quite a while ago. Right-click on the compound in the preset manager and choose Open Containing Folder. What's the version number on the file name? gray From:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Sergio Mucino Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2013 11:58 AM To:softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Subject: Re: DQ Deformation compound and scaling... I guess you're talking about SI 2014. We're on 2012, so no go for us on this one. Thanks! Still good to know. [cid:image001.gif@01CEDFA0.08A007F0] On 12/11/2013 11:56 AM, Grahame Fuller wrote: Right, the shipped version 3.0 should support scaling, but it doesn't handle animated bone length. gray From:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.commailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Ahmidou Lyazidi Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2013 12:42 AM To:softimage@listproc.autodesk.commailto:softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Subject: Re: DQ Deformation compound and scaling... At some point the factory compound was updated to support scaling. The current version of the scaling compound is 3.0 which one are you using ? --- Ahmidou Lyazidi Director | TD | CG artist http://vimeo.com/ahmidou/videos http://www.cappuccino-films.com 2013/11/12 Raffaele Fragapane raffsxsil...@googlemail.commailto:raffsxsil...@googlemail.commailto:raffsxsil...@googlemail.commailto:raffsxsil...@googlemail.com By default DQ doesn't consider scaling. The original paper omits it too as it's not that common at bone anim level in games (which is what the paper focused on). We had the same issue with the DQ compounds when they were
Re: DQ Deformation compound and scaling...
The bone lenght shouldn't be a problem, it not used in the deformation, only the SRT are. Le 13 nov. 2013 à 05:11, Eric Thivierge ethivie...@hybride.com a écrit : After you import an ICE Compound to the ICE Tree, right click on the node and go to properties. You can see the version number in there. Yes the highest versioned compound is used as well. The rig is probably changing bone lengths instead of scaling which is probably where you're hitting the problems. On Tuesday, November 12, 2013 1:06:06 PM, Sergio Mucino wrote: Hmmm... interesting. There are three DQ compounds in there. What would appear to be a 1.0 (since it has no version number), a 2.2, and a 3.0. There are differences internally for each compound version, and after examining the files I've been working on, it seems we've been using v3.0 (even though there are three DQ compounds in the folder, only one is displayed in SI's node list, which I guess means SI will list the one with the highest version number). On 12/11/2013 12:09 PM, Grahame Fuller wrote: V3.0 was added quite a while ago. Right-click on the compound in the preset manager and choose Open Containing Folder. What's the version number on the file name? gray From:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Sergio Mucino Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2013 11:58 AM To:softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Subject: Re: DQ Deformation compound and scaling... I guess you're talking about SI 2014. We're on 2012, so no go for us on this one. Thanks! Still good to know. [cid:image001.gif@01CEDFA0.08A007F0] On 12/11/2013 11:56 AM, Grahame Fuller wrote: Right, the shipped version 3.0 should support scaling, but it doesn't handle animated bone length. gray From:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.commailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com [mailto:softimage-boun...@listproc.autodesk.com] On Behalf Of Ahmidou Lyazidi Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2013 12:42 AM To:softimage@listproc.autodesk.commailto:softimage@listproc.autodesk.com Subject: Re: DQ Deformation compound and scaling... At some point the factory compound was updated to support scaling. The current version of the scaling compound is 3.0 which one are you using ? --- Ahmidou Lyazidi Director | TD | CG artist http://vimeo.com/ahmidou/videos http://www.cappuccino-films.com 2013/11/12 Raffaele Fragapane raffsxsil...@googlemail.commailto:raffsxsil...@googlemail.commailto:raffsxsil...@googlemail.commailto:raffsxsil...@googlemail.com By default DQ doesn't consider scaling. The original paper omits it too as it's not that common at bone anim level in games (which is what the paper focused on). We had the same issue with the DQ compounds when they were offered and we tested them, so we ended up cooking our own to account for scaling. It's not that hard to do, but it's more than just adding scaling up or downstream from DQ unaltered. As it's work done for Animal I can't disclose details, sorry about that, but if it's worth anything to you to know: it's perfectly possible with no noticeable effect on performance and not particularly hard to do. On Tue, Nov 12, 2013 at 8:16 AM, Sergio Mucino sergio.muc...@modusfx.commailto:sergio.muc...@modusfx.commailto:sergio.muc...@modusfx.commailto:sergio.muc...@modusfx.com wrote: I have an interesting issue at hand. It seems that the shipping Dual Quaternion Deformation ICE compound does not take into account scaling. I'm using it for one of our rigs, and scaling down the rig scales things properly, but the deformations on the mesh are still being calculated in a non-scaled space, it seems (they are quite exaggerated when the rig is scaled down). First, I thought I could try fixing it myself by multiplying the calculated deformations by the scale factor from the rig, but that didn't work. I googled a bit, and found a Dual Quaternion Deformations 2 compound, which seems to support scaling. I downloaded it, but it made no difference. Taking a closer look at it, it's doing exactly what we were doing here to fix the first compound (taking the matrix from the mesh, inverting it, and multiplying it by the vector coming from the skinning nodes), but it made no difference. The deformations are still not scaling down. I turned off the ICE tree and re-enabled my envelope (it's still there, I just mute it when enabling the ICE tree), and the deformations are ok there (I just need to use DQ on this mesh, that's why I'm not using the envelope), but re-enabling the ICE DQ deformer gives me the wrong deformations. Has anyone seen this before? Any known cures for this ailment? Thanks! -- [cid:image001.gif@01CEDF9E.37293F80] -- Our users will know fear and cower before our software! Ship
Re: DQ Deformation compound and scaling...
By default DQ doesn't consider scaling. The original paper omits it too as it's not that common at bone anim level in games (which is what the paper focused on). We had the same issue with the DQ compounds when they were offered and we tested them, so we ended up cooking our own to account for scaling. It's not that hard to do, but it's more than just adding scaling up or downstream from DQ unaltered. As it's work done for Animal I can't disclose details, sorry about that, but if it's worth anything to you to know: it's perfectly possible with no noticeable effect on performance and not particularly hard to do. On Tue, Nov 12, 2013 at 8:16 AM, Sergio Mucino sergio.muc...@modusfx.comwrote: I have an interesting issue at hand. It seems that the shipping Dual Quaternion Deformation ICE compound does not take into account scaling. I'm using it for one of our rigs, and scaling down the rig scales things properly, but the deformations on the mesh are still being calculated in a non-scaled space, it seems (they are quite exaggerated when the rig is scaled down). First, I thought I could try fixing it myself by multiplying the calculated deformations by the scale factor from the rig, but that didn't work. I googled a bit, and found a Dual Quaternion Deformations 2 compound, which seems to support scaling. I downloaded it, but it made no difference. Taking a closer look at it, it's doing exactly what we were doing here to fix the first compound (taking the matrix from the mesh, inverting it, and multiplying it by the vector coming from the skinning nodes), but it made no difference. The deformations are still not scaling down. I turned off the ICE tree and re-enabled my envelope (it's still there, I just mute it when enabling the ICE tree), and the deformations are ok there (I just need to use DQ on this mesh, that's why I'm not using the envelope), but re-enabling the ICE DQ deformer gives me the wrong deformations. Has anyone seen this before? Any known cures for this ailment? Thanks! -- -- Our users will know fear and cower before our software! Ship it! Ship it and let them flee like the dogs they are! Sergio Mucino_Signature_email.gif
Re: DQ Deformation compound and scaling...
At some point the factory compound was updated to support scaling. The current version of the scaling compound is 3.0 which one are you using ? --- Ahmidou Lyazidi Director | TD | CG artist http://vimeo.com/ahmidou/videos http://www.cappuccino-films.com 2013/11/12 Raffaele Fragapane raffsxsil...@googlemail.com By default DQ doesn't consider scaling. The original paper omits it too as it's not that common at bone anim level in games (which is what the paper focused on). We had the same issue with the DQ compounds when they were offered and we tested them, so we ended up cooking our own to account for scaling. It's not that hard to do, but it's more than just adding scaling up or downstream from DQ unaltered. As it's work done for Animal I can't disclose details, sorry about that, but if it's worth anything to you to know: it's perfectly possible with no noticeable effect on performance and not particularly hard to do. On Tue, Nov 12, 2013 at 8:16 AM, Sergio Mucino sergio.muc...@modusfx.comwrote: I have an interesting issue at hand. It seems that the shipping Dual Quaternion Deformation ICE compound does not take into account scaling. I'm using it for one of our rigs, and scaling down the rig scales things properly, but the deformations on the mesh are still being calculated in a non-scaled space, it seems (they are quite exaggerated when the rig is scaled down). First, I thought I could try fixing it myself by multiplying the calculated deformations by the scale factor from the rig, but that didn't work. I googled a bit, and found a Dual Quaternion Deformations 2 compound, which seems to support scaling. I downloaded it, but it made no difference. Taking a closer look at it, it's doing exactly what we were doing here to fix the first compound (taking the matrix from the mesh, inverting it, and multiplying it by the vector coming from the skinning nodes), but it made no difference. The deformations are still not scaling down. I turned off the ICE tree and re-enabled my envelope (it's still there, I just mute it when enabling the ICE tree), and the deformations are ok there (I just need to use DQ on this mesh, that's why I'm not using the envelope), but re-enabling the ICE DQ deformer gives me the wrong deformations. Has anyone seen this before? Any known cures for this ailment? Thanks! -- -- Our users will know fear and cower before our software! Ship it! Ship it and let them flee like the dogs they are! Sergio Mucino_Signature_email.gif
