Re: Always something new ... Dry hydrant?

[Bruce Verhei]

Normally I assume fire department plans to operate with soft suction at 
positive connection pressure.

I wouldn’t here. I know everyone hates meetings. I think one is necessary. It 
would be possible to have at least three different conceptions of project 
basics.

If FD plans on using hard suction and operating at vacuum (simplified Fire talk 
for intake pressure at less than air pressure) I’d plan venting for maximum 
flow in that mode. The pump operator has a big V-8 diesel at their command. 
Limit is only pump cavitation.

We rate and annual test our engines at draft.

Best.

Bruce Verhei 

> On Nov 2, 2018, at 06:57, Ed Kramer  wrote:
> 
> For the venting requirement, NFPA 22 section 4.15 will provide some guidance.
>  
> Ed K
>  
> From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] 
> On Behalf Of John Irwin
> Sent: Friday, November 02, 2018 7:16 AM
> To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
> Subject: RE: Always something new ... Dry hydrant?
>  
> Matt,
>  
> The tanks are 16.5’ tall and the outlet is 6” from the base. This is going to 
> result in positive pressure at the pump inlet. What I wonder is if I can get 
> 784 gallons from those (4) 3” outlets.
>  
> Also, I agree that tanks need venting, but is there direction on how much 
> venting?
>  
> What standard am I using to design this contraption? Is it 1142 for a dry 
> hydrant?
>  
> John Irwin
> Quick Response Fire Protection
>  
> From: Sprinklerforum  On 
> Behalf Of Matt Grise
> Sent: Friday, November 2, 2018 8:07 AM
> To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
> Subject: RE: Always something new ... Dry hydrant?
>  
> It might be a good idea to perform a hydraulic analysis to see how much water 
> can be drawn through those 3” outlets. The pump that the FD is using likely 
> has minimum supply pressure (1/2psi or so). If you need (x) psi at the pump 
> suction flange, and you have (y) psi at the tank discharge (from 
> gravity/water level elevation), then you can flow (z) gpm through the piping 
> network before you lose too much pressure and start cavitating the pump.
>  
> I would definitely vent the tanks!
>  
> Matt
>  
>  
> From: Sprinklerforum  On 
> Behalf Of John Irwin
> Sent: Friday, November 02, 2018 6:43 AM
> To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
> Subject: Always something new ... Dry hydrant?
>  
> Ok so here’s something new for me … the situation …
>  
> Client has a client who is using a temporary, tent structure for storage. And 
> right now they are using mobile fracing water containers to supply what I 
> assume would be classified as a dry hydrant. The fire marshal wants something 
> a little more permanent. The property owner is supplying (4) 12,500 gallon 
> water tanks. They appear to each (2) 3” threaded outlets on them. Whether or 
> not these tanks are acceptable per NFPA 22 isn’t in my scope. I will make 
> some observations to them but that’s about the extent of that.
>  
> What they are asking of me: Design the manifold system to connect these tanks 
> and feed a 5” Stortz FDC for the fire department to use as a water source in 
> case of fire. It appears that the AHJ is requesting 784GPM for 60 minutes for 
> a total of 47,040 gallons.
>  
> In which standard do I turn to for the required piping configuration for this 
> and how do prove that I can supply 784 gallons in a minute through these (4) 
> 3” outlets?
>  
> Other musings … I doubt there are vortex plates in these tanks. What’s going 
> to happen? – Is there a venting requirement to keep the fire department from 
> imploding these tanks with their truck?
>  
> I’m looking forward to hearing your thoughts on this.
>  
>  
> John Irwin
> Branch Manager – West Coast
> Quick Response Fire Protection
> jir...@quickresponsefl.com
> CELL – 727-282-9243
>  
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Re: corridors and residential sprinklers

[Jamie Seidl]

If protecting a corridor with residential sprinklers, I have always
calculated 4.  If protecting with standard spray, 5.
Jamie
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RE: Always something new ... Dry hydrant?

[Ed Kramer]

For the venting requirement, NFPA 22 section 4.15 will provide some
guidance.

 

Ed K

 

From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org]
On Behalf Of John Irwin
Sent: Friday, November 02, 2018 7:16 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Always something new ... Dry hydrant?

 

Matt,

 

The tanks are 16.5' tall and the outlet is 6" from the base. This is going
to result in positive pressure at the pump inlet. What I wonder is if I can
get 784 gallons from those (4) 3" outlets.

 

Also, I agree that tanks need venting, but is there direction on how much
venting?

 

What standard am I using to design this contraption? Is it 1142 for a dry
hydrant?

 

John Irwin

Quick Response Fire Protection

 

From: Sprinklerforum mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org> > On Behalf Of Matt
Grise
Sent: Friday, November 2, 2018 8:07 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
 
Subject: RE: Always something new ... Dry hydrant?

 

It might be a good idea to perform a hydraulic analysis to see how much
water can be drawn through those 3" outlets. The pump that the FD is using
likely has minimum supply pressure (1/2psi or so). If you need (x) psi at
the pump suction flange, and you have (y) psi at the tank discharge (from
gravity/water level elevation), then you can flow (z) gpm through the piping
network before you lose too much pressure and start cavitating the pump.

 

I would definitely vent the tanks!

 

Matt 

 

 

From: Sprinklerforum mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org> > On Behalf Of John
Irwin
Sent: Friday, November 02, 2018 6:43 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
 
Subject: Always something new ... Dry hydrant?

 

Ok so here's something new for me . the situation .

 

Client has a client who is using a temporary, tent structure for storage.
And right now they are using mobile fracing water containers to supply what
I assume would be classified as a dry hydrant. The fire marshal wants
something a little more permanent. The property owner is supplying (4)
12,500 gallon water tanks. They appear to each (2) 3" threaded outlets on
them. Whether or not these tanks are acceptable per NFPA 22 isn't in my
scope. I will make some observations to them but that's about the extent of
that.

 

What they are asking of me: Design the manifold system to connect these
tanks and feed a 5" Stortz FDC for the fire department to use as a water
source in case of fire. It appears that the AHJ is requesting 784GPM for 60
minutes for a total of 47,040 gallons.

 

In which standard do I turn to for the required piping configuration for
this and how do prove that I can supply 784 gallons in a minute through
these (4) 3" outlets?

 

Other musings . I doubt there are vortex plates in these tanks. What's going
to happen? - Is there a venting requirement to keep the fire department from
imploding these tanks with their truck?

 

I'm looking forward to hearing your thoughts on this.

 

 

John Irwin

Branch Manager - West Coast

Quick Response Fire Protection

jir...@quickresponsefl.com  

CELL - 727-282-9243

 

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RE: Always something new ... Dry hydrant?

[John Irwin]

Matt,

The tanks are 16.5' tall and the outlet is 6" from the base. This is going to 
result in positive pressure at the pump inlet. What I wonder is if I can get 
784 gallons from those (4) 3" outlets.

Also, I agree that tanks need venting, but is there direction on how much 
venting?

What standard am I using to design this contraption? Is it 1142 for a dry 
hydrant?

John Irwin
Quick Response Fire Protection

From: Sprinklerforum  On Behalf 
Of Matt Grise
Sent: Friday, November 2, 2018 8:07 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Always something new ... Dry hydrant?

It might be a good idea to perform a hydraulic analysis to see how much water 
can be drawn through those 3" outlets. The pump that the FD is using likely has 
minimum supply pressure (1/2psi or so). If you need (x) psi at the pump suction 
flange, and you have (y) psi at the tank discharge (from gravity/water level 
elevation), then you can flow (z) gpm through the piping network before you 
lose too much pressure and start cavitating the pump.

I would definitely vent the tanks!

Matt


From: Sprinklerforum 
mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org>>
 On Behalf Of John Irwin
Sent: Friday, November 02, 2018 6:43 AM
To: 
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Always something new ... Dry hydrant?

Ok so here's something new for me ... the situation ...

Client has a client who is using a temporary, tent structure for storage. And 
right now they are using mobile fracing water containers to supply what I 
assume would be classified as a dry hydrant. The fire marshal wants something a 
little more permanent. The property owner is supplying (4) 12,500 gallon water 
tanks. They appear to each (2) 3" threaded outlets on them. Whether or not 
these tanks are acceptable per NFPA 22 isn't in my scope. I will make some 
observations to them but that's about the extent of that.

What they are asking of me: Design the manifold system to connect these tanks 
and feed a 5" Stortz FDC for the fire department to use as a water source in 
case of fire. It appears that the AHJ is requesting 784GPM for 60 minutes for a 
total of 47,040 gallons.

In which standard do I turn to for the required piping configuration for this 
and how do prove that I can supply 784 gallons in a minute through these (4) 3" 
outlets?

Other musings ... I doubt there are vortex plates in these tanks. What's going 
to happen? - Is there a venting requirement to keep the fire department from 
imploding these tanks with their truck?

I'm looking forward to hearing your thoughts on this.


John Irwin
Branch Manager - West Coast
Quick Response Fire Protection
jir...@quickresponsefl.com
CELL - 727-282-9243

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RE: Always something new ... Dry hydrant?

[Matt Grise]

It might be a good idea to perform a hydraulic analysis to see how much water 
can be drawn through those 3" outlets. The pump that the FD is using likely has 
minimum supply pressure (1/2psi or so). If you need (x) psi at the pump suction 
flange, and you have (y) psi at the tank discharge (from gravity/water level 
elevation), then you can flow (z) gpm through the piping network before you 
lose too much pressure and start cavitating the pump.

I would definitely vent the tanks!

Matt


From: Sprinklerforum  On Behalf 
Of John Irwin
Sent: Friday, November 02, 2018 6:43 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Always something new ... Dry hydrant?

Ok so here's something new for me ... the situation ...

Client has a client who is using a temporary, tent structure for storage. And 
right now they are using mobile fracing water containers to supply what I 
assume would be classified as a dry hydrant. The fire marshal wants something a 
little more permanent. The property owner is supplying (4) 12,500 gallon water 
tanks. They appear to each (2) 3" threaded outlets on them. Whether or not 
these tanks are acceptable per NFPA 22 isn't in my scope. I will make some 
observations to them but that's about the extent of that.

What they are asking of me: Design the manifold system to connect these tanks 
and feed a 5" Stortz FDC for the fire department to use as a water source in 
case of fire. It appears that the AHJ is requesting 784GPM for 60 minutes for a 
total of 47,040 gallons.

In which standard do I turn to for the required piping configuration for this 
and how do prove that I can supply 784 gallons in a minute through these (4) 3" 
outlets?

Other musings ... I doubt there are vortex plates in these tanks. What's going 
to happen? - Is there a venting requirement to keep the fire department from 
imploding these tanks with their truck?

I'm looking forward to hearing your thoughts on this.


John Irwin
Branch Manager - West Coast
Quick Response Fire Protection
jir...@quickresponsefl.com
CELL - 727-282-9243

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Always something new ... Dry hydrant?

[John Irwin]

Ok so here's something new for me ... the situation ...

Client has a client who is using a temporary, tent structure for storage. And 
right now they are using mobile fracing water containers to supply what I 
assume would be classified as a dry hydrant. The fire marshal wants something a 
little more permanent. The property owner is supplying (4) 12,500 gallon water 
tanks. They appear to each (2) 3" threaded outlets on them. Whether or not 
these tanks are acceptable per NFPA 22 isn't in my scope. I will make some 
observations to them but that's about the extent of that.

What they are asking of me: Design the manifold system to connect these tanks 
and feed a 5" Stortz FDC for the fire department to use as a water source in 
case of fire. It appears that the AHJ is requesting 784GPM for 60 minutes for a 
total of 47,040 gallons.

In which standard do I turn to for the required piping configuration for this 
and how do prove that I can supply 784 gallons in a minute through these (4) 3" 
outlets?

Other musings ... I doubt there are vortex plates in these tanks. What's going 
to happen? - Is there a venting requirement to keep the fire department from 
imploding these tanks with their truck?

I'm looking forward to hearing your thoughts on this.


John Irwin
Branch Manager - West Coast
Quick Response Fire Protection
jir...@quickresponsefl.com
CELL - 727-282-9243

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