Re: question about Storage height

[Mike Hairfield via Sprinklerforum]

It should be 10 feet even though the other container is empty it's still 
plastic.

Mike

From: Sprinklerforum  on behalf 
of Steve Mackinnon via Sprinklerforum 
Sent: Wednesday, January 26, 2022 9:02 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org 

Cc: Steve Mackinnon ; Peter Howard 
Subject: question about Storage height

Good morning all,

We have a storage situation where the liquid commodity is in a 5 foot plastic 
storage cube, with an equally sized empty plastic container below.

The empty container below is only there to act as a spill collection vessel.

The question our office has been banging around, what is the storage height???

Would this be considered 5 feet of storage or 10 feet?

Would you take any exception to the plastic containers (like when we change the 
commodity classification with wood to plastic pallets)?

Thank you in advance
Steven
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Re: ESFR - Minimum Remote Area Size

[Mike Hairfield via Sprinklerforum]

I don’t believe ESFR sprinklers can be installed in a concrete tee building.
Minimum spacing is 8’-0” and what is the deflector distance.
Mike 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Dec 29, 2021, at 2:11 PM, Kyle.Montgomery via Sprinklerforum 
>  wrote:
> 
> I'm dealing with an existing concrete tee building that the owner wants to 
> retrofit with an ESFR system. Heads will be closely spaced due to the 
> obstruction caused by the tees; 5-foot on center. Does NFPA 13 have a minimum 
> remote area size, or is it just 12 heads?
> 
> -Kyle M
> 
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Mixing ESFR Sprinklers

[Mike Hairfield via Sprinklerforum]

Here is the situation:

Building has 40'-8" Maximum Ceiling height at the ridge, the building is 
designed with K16.8 ESFR's.

Can the areas that are over the 40'-0" maximum ceiling height be designed using 
K22.4 or K25.2 ESFR's
and be approved?

Thanks,

Mike Hairfield
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Re: Ammunition Storage

[Mike Hairfield via Sprinklerforum]

Found it, It's Class IV Commodities.

Thank you,

Mike

From: Sprinklerforum  on behalf 
of Matt Grise via Sprinklerforum 
Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2021 11:56 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org 

Cc: Matt Grise 
Subject: RE: Ammunition Storage

I think that small arms ammo is mentioned in the annex commodity list.

Matt


-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum  On Behalf 
Of Mike Hairfield via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2021 10:56 AM
To: Sprinkler Forum 
Cc: Mike Hairfield 
Subject: Ammunition Storage

What the would the commodity of ammunition be classified as in NFPA 13-2013?

Mike
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Ammunition Storage

[Mike Hairfield via Sprinklerforum]

What the would the commodity of ammunition be classified as in NFPA 13-2013?

Mike
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Re: [EXTERNAL] Conveyors

[Mike Hairfield via Sprinklerforum]

Has anyone looked at FM Global's guidelines for conveyors?

Mike


From: Sprinklerforum  on behalf 
of Cary Webber via Sprinklerforum 
Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2021 1:26 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org 

Cc: Cary Webber ; Tyson Sutherland 

Subject: RE: [EXTERNAL] Conveyors

Look at NFPA 13 "Next Addition" for 2022 for the latest (albeit not yet 
published or adopted) requirements. Conveyors will have their own section in 
2022 but good fire protection would dictate at least a look.



Cary Webber CFPS Director, Technical Services
Reliable Automatic Sprinkler Co., Inc.
1470 Smith Grove Road, Liberty, SC  29657
Tel: 864-843-5161



-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum  On Behalf 
Of Tyson Sutherland via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2021 12:51 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: Tyson Sutherland 
Subject: RE: [EXTERNAL] Conveyors

CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not click 
links or open attachments unless you can confirm the sender and know the 
content is safe.


I just thoroughly went through this with an AHJ.

Conveyors are not specifically addressed by NFPA 13. Per NFPA 13, if there are 
ESFRs overhead, then anything over 2 feet wide is an obstruction that requires 
heads beneath.



TYSON SUTHERLAND, CET

-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum  On Behalf 
Of Matt Grise via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2021 12:43 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: Matt Grise 
Subject: RE: [EXTERNAL] Conveyors


BE ADVISED - This email originated outside EMCOR.


I have seen it go both ways.

Generally in our area, if the conveyors are about waist high, they don't 
usually need sprinklers under them. Some AHJ's allow/require paint stripes 
under the conveyors so you can clearly see where you are not allowed to store 
things. Others require fencing to keep trash from piling up. Others want the 
letter of the code enforced and require sprinklers under all conveyors over 2' 
wide regardless of height.

We always make sure we talk to the fire department, and the tenant/owner. 
Sometimes they (or their insurance) are more stringent than the fire department.

Matt


-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum  On Behalf 
Of Mario Berrios via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2021 11:33 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: Mario Berrios 
Subject: Re: [EXTERNAL] Conveyors

May be check NFPA 15:7.2.3; 
https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Furldefense.com%2Fv3%2F__http%3A%2F%2F7.2.3.3__%3B!!FaxH778!MJmTJ6jMOB4_SCi9StKCQGWk2JC6QOiMssBfev4Uek0PvADc4mbMK8k-iCttKBnWDW_9WbQ%24data=04%7C01%7C%7Cab5d28181c7140126b7e08d961a43828%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435%7C1%7C0%7C637648180212626078%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000sdata=0pGEIJ%2B4pc8Cl26VVzD495Cf41CBJqnGE%2B1ReZ4x13k%3Dreserved=0
 .;fig a.7.2.3.3.1.a.

mario berrioscowprop...@aol.com

-Original Message-
From: Kyle.Montgomery via Sprinklerforum 

To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org 

Cc: Kyle.Montgomery ; Tony Silva 
Sent: Tue, Aug 17, 2021 12:25 pm
Subject: RE: [EXTERNAL] Conveyors

I think it's reasonable if there is no fuel load beneath the conveyors. 
Probably depends on the configuration and height of the conveyors and if there 
are any safeguards put in place to ensure there won't be anything place under 
the conveyors in the future.

And by safeguards, I don't necessarily mean that there has to be physical 
barriers that prevent anything from being placed under the conveyors. It could 
be based on the practices and procedures of the facility. Keep in mind that 
operation of many of these facilities is heavily reliant upon knowing exactly 
where every box is at all times (aisle, row, rack). It's unlikely that they 
would just be stacking random boxes under the conveyors.

I'm not sure there is a good code section to lean on to back me up. But then 
again, the code isn't always reasonable.

-Kyle M

-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum  On Behalf 
Of Tony Silva via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Tuesday, August 17, 2021 9:13 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: Tony Silva 
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Conveyors

An ESFR building has conveyors over 2 feet wide and some even over 4 feet wide. 
The owner/tenant is of the opinion that sprinklers below the conveyors are not 
required as there are no hazards below, regardless of the width of the 
obstruction.

Is this a reasonable conclusion?

Tony
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Interstitial Space

[Mike Hairfield via Sprinklerforum]

Got a project where there is a walkable ceiling with a non-combustible 
interstitial space above.

FM Global did not require sprinkler protection in this space.

The local AHJ is saying that it needs to be protected with sprinklers.

Where in NFPA-13 can I find where it doesn't require protection.

Thanks,

Mike
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Re: Pan-Type Construction

[Mike Hairfield via Sprinklerforum]

NFPA 13 2007 Handbook has a picture of pan construction Exhibit 3.37


From: Sprinklerforum  on behalf 
of Dennis Wilson via Sprinklerforum 
Sent: Tuesday, February 2, 2021 8:18 AM
To: Don Kern ; sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org 

Cc: Dennis Wilson ; Fpdcdesign 

Subject: RE: Pan-Type Construction

I couldn't find it either, but it was a picture with small pans,  these are 
bigger 36 sq.ft. pans.

-Original Message-
From: Don Kern 
Sent: Monday, February 1, 2021 6:41 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: Dennis Wilson ; Fpdcdesign 

Subject: RE: Pan-Type Construction

I apologize for not remembering which edition, but the  NFPA 13Handbook has a 
picture of a pan construction ("waffle") under the smooth ceiling section.

-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum  On Behalf 
Of Dennis Wilson via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Monday, February 1, 2021 5:49 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: Dennis Wilson ; Fpdcdesign 

Subject: RE: Pan-Type Construction

Haven't been able to send a picture.


-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum  On Behalf 
Of Fpdcdesign via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Monday, February 1, 2021 4:46 PM
To: Sprinklerforum 
Cc: Fpdcdesign 
Subject: Re: Pan-Type Construction




  Is this is what you are looking at?







 Todd G Williams, PE
Fire Protection Design/Consulting

Stonington, CT

860-535-2080 (tel:860-535-2080)  (ofc)

860-554-7054 (tel:860-554-7054) (fax)

860-608-4559 (tel:860-608-4559)  (cell)







>
> On Feb 1, 2021 at 4:52 PM,   (mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org)>  wrote:
>
>
>
>  Would anyone know what the maximum depth is allowed in concrete pan-type 
> construction? I have a job with exist. sprinklers installed along the bottom 
> of the stems with pendents. The AHJ is questioning whether sprinklers are 
> needed in each pocket. Pockets are around 6' square w/ 8" wide stems both 
> directions. ___ Sprinklerforum 
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>



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Re: Tissue Paper Wrapped in Plastic

[Mike Hairfield via Sprinklerforum]

I just found this in NFPA-13 2013 Table A.5.6.4.1 that Paper products, 
uncartoned and plastic wrapped is Group A Plastic Commodities.

Is this correct?
Mike


From: Sprinklerforum  on behalf 
of Matt Grise via Sprinklerforum 
Sent: Monday, February 1, 2021 8:38 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org 

Cc: Matt Grise 
Subject: RE: Tissue Paper Wrapped in Plastic

Sorry - just looked at the NFPA 13 criteria for tissue. I don't see any options 
to fit those criteria.

Maybe they could store it in boxes? Have you looked into FM criteria?

Matt


-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum  On Behalf 
Of Matt Grise via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Monday, February 01, 2021 7:32 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: Matt Grise 
Subject: RE: Tissue Paper Wrapped in Plastic

Depends on the packaging. If it is in boxes, class 4? If it is loose, then 
maybe lightweight rolled paper?

Matt


-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum  On Behalf 
Of Mike Hairfield via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Monday, February 01, 2021 7:30 AM
To: Sprinkler Forum 
Cc: Mike Hairfield 
Subject: Tissue Paper Wrapped in Plastic

Has anyone designed a warehouse of Tissue Paper wrapped in Plastic maximum 
storage height of 25'-0" high in a building that is 38'-0" high.

I couldn't find any design criteria in NFPA-13 for this commodity.

Mike
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Tissue Paper Wrapped in Plastic

[Mike Hairfield via Sprinklerforum]

Has anyone designed a warehouse of Tissue Paper wrapped in Plastic maximum 
storage height of 25'-0" high
in a building that is 38'-0" high.

I couldn't find any design criteria in NFPA-13 for this commodity.

Mike
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Hangers for CPVC Pipe going through TGI Joists

[Mike Hairfield via Sprinklerforum]

The TGI Joists are spaced 16" apart, does NFPA-13 require hangers on the CPVC 
pipe since
the TGI joists are supporting the pipe?

Mike
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Re: On/Off Switch in the Electric supply to a Dry Pipe System Air Compressor

[Mike Hairfield via Sprinklerforum]

Like the one for a light switch, there is breaker in the electrical panel with 
a lock-out

Mike


From: Sprinklerforum  on behalf 
of John Denhardt via Sprinklerforum 
Sent: Thursday, September 24, 2020 3:00 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org 

Cc: John Denhardt 
Subject: Re: On/Off Switch in the Electric supply to a Dry Pipe System Air 
Compressor

You are required to have a disconnect switch. What kind of “On/Off” switch are 
you seeing?

John

John August Denhardt, P.E.
Vice-President Engineering and Technical Services
American Fire Sprinkler Association
301-343-1457

> On Sep 24, 2020, at 2:50 PM, Mike Hairfield via Sprinklerforum 
>  wrote:
>
> Made a inspection to one of my jobs today and found that the electrical 
> contractor installed a On/Off
> switch to the air compressor which I know isn't allowed.
>
> Where does it state in NFPA that this isn't allowd?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Mike
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On/Off Switch in the Electric supply to a Dry Pipe System Air Compressor

[Mike Hairfield via Sprinklerforum]

Made a inspection to one of my jobs today and found that the electrical 
contractor installed a On/Off
switch to the air compressor which I know isn't allowed.

Where does it state in NFPA that this isn't allowd?

Thanks,

Mike
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Re: Non-Combustible Concealed Space

[Mike Hairfield via Sprinklerforum]

Thank you Kevin,

I'll send it to the AHJ


From: Sprinklerforum  on behalf 
of Kevin Hall via Sprinklerforum 
Sent: Thursday, September 10, 2020 3:17 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org 

Cc: Kevin Hall 
Subject: Re: Non-Combustible Concealed Space

This issue was addressed during the current revision cycle of NFPA 13.  For
the 2022 edition the proposed new language states:

*9.2.1.2.2* The space shall be considered a concealed space even with
non-fueled fired equipment and access panels. *

*A.9.2.1.2.2 Noncombustible and limited-combustible spaces with
non-fuel-fired equipment and access panels should be considered a concealed
space and should not require sprinkler protection. *


With the following substantiation:

*The Technical Committee agrees that there is confusion if a space that has
non-fuel-fire equipment is considered a concealed space Text was changed to
better clarify that this space is considered a “concealed” space and
therefore falls within the requirements of Section 9.2.1.2. The existing
annex from PI-493 (FR 1351) remains with small wording additions to add
further clarification. *

Please note that this is still pending committee ballot and any NITMAN/CAM
that could alter the final language in the 2022 edition of NFPA 13, but it
is the intent of the committee to not require sprinklers in these spaces.


Kevin Hall, P.E., MSFPE
*Coordinator, Engineering and Technical Services*

*American Fire Sprinkler Association*
p: 214-349-5971
w: firesprinkler.org
<https://www.facebook.com/firesprinkler.org/>
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<https://www.linkedin.com/company/american-fire-sprinkler-association-afsa-/>
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On Thu, Sep 10, 2020 at 1:59 PM Mike Hairfield via Sprinklerforum <
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org> wrote:

> Here is my situation: Hotel Rooms that have a 3'-6" x 2'-6"
> Non-Combustible Concealed space that has a heat pump
>
> unit inside this space. There is not a door into this space only a
> discharge grill that can be removed by the maintenance
>
> staff to get access to service these units.
>
>
>
> The local AHJ says that I have to install a sprinkler head to protect this
> space.
>
> The way I interpret NFPA-13 2013 paragraph 8.15.1.2 and 8.15.1.2.2 it does
> not require a sprinkler head in this space.
>
>
>
> HELP
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
>
>
> Mike
>
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>
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>
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Re: Non-Combustible Concealed Space

[Mike Hairfield via Sprinklerforum]

It's a enclosure with an access panel.
It's constructed with fire retardant lumber.

To me it's like a Nursing home constructed with fire retardant lumber and there 
are heat pump units above the ceilings,
sprinklers aren't required above those ceilings


From: Sprinklerforum  on behalf 
of Tom Noble via Sprinklerforum 
Sent: Thursday, September 10, 2020 2:30 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org 

Cc: Tom Noble 
Subject: Re: Non-Combustible Concealed Space

Is it really a closet, or just an enclosure with an access panel?

> On Sep 10, 2020, at 1:28 PM, Prahl, Craig/GVL via Sprinklerforum 
>  wrote:
>
> Playing the devil's advocate here, one could argue that the presence of an 
> electrically energized air handler negates the part stating "minimal 
> combustible loading", that this is actually a mechanical closet not just a 
> "concealed space".
>
>
>
> Craig Prahl | Jacobs | Group Lead/SME - Fire Protection | 864.676.5252 | 
> craig.pr...@jacobs.com <mailto:craig.pr...@jacobs.com> | 
> www.jacobs.com<http://www.jacobs.com> <http://www.jacobs.com/>
> 1041 East Butler Road   Greenville, South Carolina  29606
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Sprinklerforum  <mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org>> On Behalf Of Mike 
> Hairfield via Sprinklerforum
> Sent: Thursday, September 10, 2020 1:59 PM
> To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org 
> <mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>
> Cc: Mike Hairfield mailto:fsl...@msn.com>>
> Subject: [EXTERNAL] Non-Combustible Concealed Space
>
> Here is my situation: Hotel Rooms that have a 3'-6" x 2'-6" Non-Combustible 
> Concealed space that has a heat pump unit inside this space. There is not a 
> door into this space only a discharge grill that can be removed by the 
> maintenance staff to get access to service these units.
>
> The local AHJ says that I have to install a sprinkler head to protect this 
> space.
> The way I interpret NFPA-13 2013 paragraph 8.15.1.2 and 8.15.1.2.2 it does 
> not require a sprinkler head in this space.
>
> HELP
>
> Thanks,
>
> Mike
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Tom Noble CET, CFPS,CWBSP
Technical Programs Specialist
American Fire Sprinkler Association
p:  214-349-5965 ext125
w:  firesprinkler.org <http://firesprinkler.org/>
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On-Demand offers a superior learning experience with ability to earn CEU and 
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Non-Combustible Concealed Space

[Mike Hairfield via Sprinklerforum]

Here is my situation: Hotel Rooms that have a 3'-6" x 2'-6" Non-Combustible 
Concealed space that has a heat pump
unit inside this space. There is not a door into this space only a discharge 
grill that can be removed by the maintenance
staff to get access to service these units.

The local AHJ says that I have to install a sprinkler head to protect this 
space.
The way I interpret NFPA-13 2013 paragraph 8.15.1.2 and 8.15.1.2.2 it does not 
require a sprinkler head in this space.

HELP

Thanks,

Mike
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Re: C-Clamp Hangers

[Mike Hairfield via Sprinklerforum]

They have to be FM approved and/or UL listed.

What type of C-Clamps are planning on using?

Mike


From: Sprinklerforum  on behalf 
of Jerry Van Kolken via Sprinklerforum 
Sent: Wednesday, August 26, 2020 1:52 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org 

Cc: jvankol...@mfpc.us 
Subject: C-Clamp Hangers

Does anyone know the reasoning Why you would not be allowed to use C-Clamps
for your hanger attachments?



I've had a couple of specs have this requirement pass by my desk recently.



Jerry Van Kolken

Millennium Fire Protection Corp.

2950 San Luis Rey Rd.

Oceanside, CA 92058

(760) 722-2722 FX 722-2730



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Re: Protecting A 500 Degree 12' x 10' Oven

[Mike Hairfield via Sprinklerforum]

Local AHJ is requiring it to be protected.


From: Sprinklerforum  on behalf 
of Matt Grise via Sprinklerforum 
Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2020 1:00 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org 

Cc: Matt Grise 
Subject: RE: Protecting A 500 Degree 12' x 10' Oven


Is protection needed inside the oven? I don’t think you are required to put 
sprinklers inside equipment.



Matt





From: Sprinklerforum  On Behalf 
Of Mike Hairfield via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2020 11:58 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: Mike Hairfield 
Subject: Protecting A 500 Degree 12' x 10' Oven



How does one provide sprinkler protection in a 500 dregree 12' x10' oven?



TYCO makes a 650-degree sprinkler head  but how do you handle the heat on the 
system?



Mike
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Protecting A 500 Degree 12' x 10' Oven

[Mike Hairfield via Sprinklerforum]

How does one provide sprinkler protection in a 500 dregree 12' x10' oven?

TYCO makes a 650-degree sprinkler head  but how do you handle the heat on the 
system?

Mike
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Re: Reliable Model B Alarm Valve

[Mike Hairfield via Sprinklerforum]

Thanks Guys,

I just got one from Reliable.

Mike


From: Sprinklerforum  on behalf 
of John Denhardt via Sprinklerforum 
Sent: Friday, April 24, 2020 11:24 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org 

Cc: John Denhardt ; Cary Webber 
; Mike Hairfield 
Subject: Re: Reliable Model B Alarm Valve

Mike - Reliable Sprinkler will be contacting you with the requested 
information.  Let me know if you need anything additional.

John
[https://www.dropbox.com/s/g4h8r7hdtsr6154/AFSA_L.png?raw=1]
John August Denhardt, PE
Vice President, Engineering and Technical Services
American Fire Sprinkler Association
m: p:   301-343-1457
214-349-5965 ext 121
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We’re here for you!

AFSA is standing with its members, volunteer leaders, industry partners and 
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<https://sprinklerage.com/afsa-announces-free-webinar-series/> free 
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 directly if you are in need of answers or help.


On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 10:33 AM John Denhardt 
mailto:jdenha...@firesprinkler.org>> wrote:
Have you checked with Reliable Sprinkler?

John
[https://www.dropbox.com/s/g4h8r7hdtsr6154/AFSA_L.png?raw=1]
John August Denhardt, PE
Vice President, Engineering and Technical Services
American Fire Sprinkler Association
m: p:   301-343-1457
214-349-5965 ext 121
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We’re here for you!

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other stakeholders. We are hosting 
<https://sprinklerage.com/afsa-announces-free-webinar-series/> free 
webinar<https://sprinklerage.com/afsa-announces-free-webinar-series/>s for 
members and will continue to share information through a variety of channels, 
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contact 
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 directly if you are in need of answers or help.


On Thu, Apr 23, 2020 at 2:50 PM Mike Hairfield via Sprinklerforum 
mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>>
 wrote:
Does anyone have data sheets on a Reliable Model B Alarm Valve.

Mike
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Reliable Model B Alarm Valve

[Mike Hairfield via Sprinklerforum]

Does anyone have data sheets on a Reliable Model B Alarm Valve.

Mike
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COVID-19

[Mike Hairfield via Sprinklerforum]

What is the rule for having more than 10 people working on a job site?

I've seen projects with more than 100 construction workers, is that legal?

Thanks,

Mike
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Re: [EXTERNAL] RE: Sprinklerforum Digest, Vol 83, Issue 6

[Mike Hairfield via Sprinklerforum]

No you can't by the data sheet

Mike


From: Sprinklerforum  on behalf 
of Kyle.Montgomery via Sprinklerforum 
Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2020 10:05 AM
To: anth...@archerconstruction.com ; 
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org 
Cc: Kyle.Montgomery ; 'Nicky Marshall' 

Subject: RE: [EXTERNAL] RE: Sprinklerforum Digest, Vol 83, Issue 6

You can't use that head on a pre-action system, can you?

-Kyle M

-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Anthony C via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2020 7:34 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: Anthony C ; 'Nicky Marshall' 

Subject: [EXTERNAL] RE: Sprinklerforum Digest, Vol 83, Issue 6

Nicky
Why not use the Viking K28 ESFR?

It is approved for 50' storage in a 55' building per FM..

Anthony Carrizosa
Project Manager | Fire Protection
7855 S 206th St Kent, WA 98032
Cell: 206-679-5283 | Office: 253-872-7222


https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__archerconstruction.com=DwICAg=wn3mZQLIuInh2ClcJ0_DIA=Z_2A85VL7AQzoqudh6uOyS3bn8etxB7nLN8OBJwQd9A=5sSELkAzI2wUL55kAXK5-wlsckKui82fjmlyuQB2824=kI1gEVjczG6OMJlQ6fVg9QC3y6DhZsqnTBYfip3iD8c=

-Original Message-
From: Sprinklerforum  On Behalf 
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Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2020 6:14 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: Sprinklerforum Digest, Vol 83, Issue 6

Send Sprinklerforum mailing list submissions to
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To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit

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RadioShuttle High Density Pallet Racking System

[Mike Hairfield via Sprinklerforum]

Has anyone had any experience designing systems for the RadioShuttle High 
Density Pallet
Racking Systems?

Mike
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Re: Corrugated Metal Deck - smooth??

[Mike Hairfield via Sprinklerforum]

Reliable makes the MBEC-14 Horizontal Sidewall for Metal buildings


From: Sprinklerforum  on behalf 
of Fpdcdesign via Sprinklerforum 
Sent: Monday, February 17, 2020 9:13 AM
To: Sprinklerforum 
Cc: Fpdcdesign 
Subject: Re: Corrugated Metal Deck - smooth??

What is supporting the metal deck?


On Feb 17, 2020 at 9:05 AM, mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>> wrote:


I have a customer that intended to use horizontal sidewall sprinklers under an 
exposed corrugated metal deck.  The deck is < 3” in depth.  The EOR on the 
project has rejected it, stating sidewalls must be under a smooth ceiling and 
the corrugated metal deck does not meet the criteria for a smooth ceiling.



Has anyone had issue using HSW under corrugated metal deck?  I can’t recall of 
a situation where I have run across this.



[MFP_logo_F]

Travis Mack, CFPS, CWBSP, RME-G, SET

MFP Design, LLC

3356 E Vallejo Ct

Gilbert, AZ 85298

NEW EXTENSION: 480-505-9271 ext. 700

fax: 866-430-6107

tm...@mfpdesign.com

www.mfpdesign.com



Send large files to us via: 
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Re: Fire Pump NFPA 20

[Mike Hairfield via Sprinklerforum]

FM Global is acceptable also.

Mike


From: Sprinklerforum  on behalf 
of Parsley Consulting via Sprinklerforum 

Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2020 1:26 PM
To: Luis Perea via Sprinklerforum 
Cc: Parsley Consulting 
Subject: Re: Fire Pump NFPA 20

Per the 2019 edition of NFPA 20:
4.7.1* Fire pumps shall be dedicated to and listed for fire protection service.
The identical language was contained in the 2013 and 2016 editions.

It would be a good idea to be familiar with the term "listed" as defined in 
NFPA 20 [also 2019 edition]:
3.2.3* Listed. Equipment, materials, or services included in a list published 
by an organization that is acceptable to the authority having jurisdiction and 
concerned with evaluation of products or services, that maintains periodic 
inspection of production of listed equipment or materials or periodic 
evaluation of services, and whose listing states that either the equipment, 
material, or service meets approprite designated standards or has been tested 
and found suitable for a specified purpose.
So, it appears the short answer is "yes."

sincerely,
Ken Wagoner, SET
Parsley Consulting
350 West 9th Avenue, Suite 206
Escondido, California 92025
Phone 760-745-6181
Visit the website
On 01/23/2020 9:55 AM, Luis Perea via Sprinklerforum wrote:

Hi Everyone

Does The Fire Pump needs to be UL to comply with NFPA 20?



Regards.



[lpe...@demek.com]

[Base Firma   RSE]





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Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Looking for a 6" hanger for sloped roof

[Mike Hairfield via Sprinklerforum]

Only made in the 3/8" size also.


From: Sprinklerforum  on behalf 
of Kyle.Montgomery via Sprinklerforum 
Sent: Thursday, January 2, 2020 9:57 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org 
; vi...@wtfp.net 
Cc: Kyle.Montgomery ; James Litvak 

Subject: RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: Looking for a 6" hanger for sloped roof


I think the Tolco/Cooper B-Line Fig. 75 is similar, if you want another option.



From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of James Litvak via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Thursday, January 2, 2020 7:55 AM
To: vi...@wtfp.net
Cc: James Litvak ; sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: Looking for a 6" hanger for sloped roof



I would still need a swivel with those. But someone just emailed me about the 
Afcon AF777 which is a 3/8" and 1/2" swivel attachment with both sizes listed.



On Thu, Jan 2, 2020 at 9:35 AM Vince Sabolik 
mailto:vi...@wtfp.net>> wrote:

Top beam clamps, narrow or wide throat.

On 1/2/2020 8:36 AM, James Litvak via Sprinklerforum wrote:

I'm trying to hang 6" pipe flat beneath a roof with a 4:12 slope, but having 
trouble finding an attachment. It's a standard Butler-style building with 
Z-purlins, and I'm hanging the pipe flat, both perpendicular and parallel to 
the slope. The Sammy hangers with swivels are not listed, and the slope is way 
too steep to "adjust" the rod. About the only thing I have been able to find is 
welded linked eye rods from Tolco 
(http://www.cooperindustries.com/content/dam/public/bline/Resources/Library/catalogs/pipe_hangers/pipe_hangers_and_supports/TA-EyeRod.pdf).
 However, even though the Z-purlins are heavy gauge, it seems like a bad idea 
to hang from the bottom lip. In which case, even if I went with the linked eye 
rods, hanging from the side of the purlin seems like it would create its own 
difficulty. Does anyone here have a suggestion for how to hang in this 
situation? I also need to trapeze the pipe across the slope, but I figure 
whatever solution I can use to hang the pipe across the slope will also work 
for trapeze hangers.



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--

[cid:image001.png@01D5C142.4D246210]

Vince Sabolik
West Tech Fire Protection, Inc.
11351 Pearl Road   /   Strongsville, Ohio   44136
Phone 440 238-4800Fax  440 238-4876   Cell 440 724-7601
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Re: Looking for a 6" hanger for sloped roof

[Mike Hairfield via Sprinklerforum]

The 3/8" is listed but the 1/2" is not.


From: Sprinklerforum  on behalf 
of James Litvak via Sprinklerforum 
Sent: Thursday, January 2, 2020 9:55 AM
To: vi...@wtfp.net 
Cc: James Litvak ; 
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org 
Subject: Re: Looking for a 6" hanger for sloped roof

I would still need a swivel with those. But someone just emailed me about the 
Afcon AF777 which is a 3/8" and 1/2" swivel attachment with both sizes listed.

On Thu, Jan 2, 2020 at 9:35 AM Vince Sabolik 
mailto:vi...@wtfp.net>> wrote:
Top beam clamps, narrow or wide throat.

On 1/2/2020 8:36 AM, James Litvak via Sprinklerforum wrote:
I'm trying to hang 6" pipe flat beneath a roof with a 4:12 slope, but having 
trouble finding an attachment. It's a standard Butler-style building with 
Z-purlins, and I'm hanging the pipe flat, both perpendicular and parallel to 
the slope. The Sammy hangers with swivels are not listed, and the slope is way 
too steep to "adjust" the rod. About the only thing I have been able to find is 
welded linked eye rods from Tolco 
(http://www.cooperindustries.com/content/dam/public/bline/Resources/Library/catalogs/pipe_hangers/pipe_hangers_and_supports/TA-EyeRod.pdf).
 However, even though the Z-purlins are heavy gauge, it seems like a bad idea 
to hang from the bottom lip. In which case, even if I went with the linked eye 
rods, hanging from the side of the purlin seems like it would create its own 
difficulty. Does anyone here have a suggestion for how to hang in this 
situation? I also need to trapeze the pipe across the slope, but I figure 
whatever solution I can use to hang the pipe across the slope will also work 
for trapeze hangers.



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[cid:16f66c02709c01a19f1]

Vince Sabolik
West Tech Fire Protection, Inc.
11351 Pearl Road   /   Strongsville, Ohio   44136
Phone 440 238-4800Fax  440 238-4876   Cell 440 724-7601
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Re: Clyde Woods

[Mike Hairfield via Sprinklerforum]

Mike
Try eBay or Amazon.
I was thought hydraulic calculations
By Dell Milan using mr woods book that I still have.

Mike

Sent from my iPhone

On Nov 21, 2019, at 9:45 AM, Mike B Morey via Sprinklerforum 
 wrote:

On the subject of Mr. Woods book, does anyone know where to get a copy?  My 
first employer worked with him in his later years at Automatic and always spoke 
highly of him and the book.  I've never been able to find a copy for sale as 
it's an old and probably to most obscure text.  I'd love to read it and perhaps 
have it as a bit of fire protection memorabilia if I can find a decent copy.




Mike Morey
CFPS 3229 • NICET S.E.T. 123677
Project Manager • Fire Protection Group
Shambaugh & Son, LP an EMCOR Company
7614 Opportunity Drive • Fort Wayne, IN • 46825
direct 260.487.7824 /  cell 260.417.0625 /  fax 260.487.7991
email mmo...@shambaugh.com








From:Vince Sabolik via Sprinklerforum 

To:"Prahl, Craig/GVL" , 
"sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org" 

Cc:Vince Sabolik 
Date:11/18/2019 07:29 PM
Subject:Re: [EXTERNAL] Anybody?
Sent by:"Sprinklerforum" 





BE ADVISED - This email originated outside EMCOR.

Craig (and others) -

Thank you so much! After I posted I realized that I had a copy of Clyde Woods'  
"Hydraulic Data For Automatic Sprinkler Systems".
It refers to discharge tables from the 30s & 40s. So there was the "K factor", 
at least for him. I learned how to do hydraulic calculations from
that book and I would recommend it to anyone, especially in our button push 
world.

Now, about bay and beam. I've been doing design for fifty years. Ed MacFalls, 
the guy that taught me had about sixty years. We were on a job in
Cleveland and I noticed sprinkler head in a bay; sprinkler head under a beam; 
repeat. The beam heads sat under a large reveal, about 24" down.
I thought that maybe the designer or fitter screwed up. But Ed said it was bay 
and beam design and it was supposed to be that way.
If I remember God knows, I thought Ed said something about the Kresge Building 
in New York had been done that way. He should have known... he worked on it!







On 11/18/2019 4:37 PM, Prahl, Craig/GVL wrote:

Bay and beam might be related to the smooth ceiling rule for Continuous smooth 
bays formed by wood, concrete or steel beams spaced more than 7.5 ft on centers 
– beams supported by columns, girders or trusses.



Beam and Girder construction also references Beams and Bays.



According to historical data, K-factor was a value known and established in the 
early 1900’s.  It was a mathematical formula based on orifice size and 
pressure.  Sprinklers standardized around the ½” orifice and the minimum 
operating pressure was set to 7 psi.  The pipe schedule system was the standard 
for designing system well into the 1970’s but even before that time, hydraulic 
calculations could be performed when deemed necessary.  These manual 
calculations were performed by hand unless the contractor or engineer had 
access to a University or other such entity’s main frame computer.  In the 
1980’s with the ever increasing prevalence of personal computers, software 
programs were developed to assist designers in performing more detailed and 
complex system calculations.



Sprinklers prior to 1953 had a smaller deflector with approximately 40% of 
their discharge deflected upward with the remainder downward.  These are 
commonly referred to as “Old Style” or “Conventional” sprinklers.



In 1953 a new style sprinkler was created with a larger deflector to create a 
more uniform spray pattern and were referred to as “Spray Sprinklers”.  In 1958 
they were referred to as “Standard Sprinklers”.  These Spray sprinklers were 
designed to be installed in either the upright, pendent or sidewall position 
based on the deflector style provided.



So the knowledge of k-factors existed long before 1953 but for the most part, 
it was not a relevant factor in the design of sprinkler systems since the Pipe 
Schedule system was used for Light, Ordinary and even Extra Hazard occupancies.



In the 1970’s, the large orifice (8.0K), 17/32” orifice storage sprinkler was 
introduced.  This special sprinkler was one of the first requiring hydraulic 
calculations.





Excerpts from 2011 FireLine “Evolution of the Fire Sprinkler”.



Craig Prahl |Jacobs| Group Lead/SME – Fire Protection | 864.676.5252 | 
craig.pr...@jacobs.com|www.jacobs.com

1041 East Butler Road   Greenville, South Carolina  29606



From: Sprinklerforum 

 On Behalf Of Vince Sabolik via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Monday, November 18, 2019 1:27 PM
To: 
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org

Re: Interstitial Spaces

[Mike Hairfield via Sprinklerforum]

Non-Combustible and not a return air plenum without any storage.

Mike


From: Sprinklerforum  on behalf 
of Steve Leyton via Sprinklerforum 
Sent: Friday, October 18, 2019 10:54 AM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org 

Cc: Steve Leyton ; Mike Hairfield 
Subject: RE: Interstitial Spaces


Are the “interstitial spaces”  combustible?   If not, are they being used as a 
return air plenum?



Steve L.



From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Mike Hairfield via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Friday, October 18, 2019 7:53 AM
To: Sprinkler Forum
Cc: Mike Hairfield
Subject: Interstitial Spaces



Got a project that has a Interstitial Space and the Architect is stating that 
in order for the building to be

considered fully sprinklered building the Interstitial spaces have to be 
protected.



I've done numerous facilities in the past where the Interstitial Spaces were 
not protected.



Is the architect correct or is he pulling this out of his butt?



Mike
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Interstitial Spaces

[Mike Hairfield via Sprinklerforum]

Got a project that has a Interstitial Space and the Architect is stating that 
in order for the building to be
considered fully sprinklered building the Interstitial spaces have to be 
protected.

I've done numerous facilities in the past where the Interstitial Spaces were 
not protected.

Is the architect correct or is he pulling this out of his butt?

Mike
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Re: ESFR Sprinklers Spacing and Height Criteria

[Mike Hairfield via Sprinklerforum]

No and No


From: Sprinklerforum  on behalf 
of Jerry Van Kolken via Sprinklerforum 
Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2019 7:51 PM
To: sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org 

Cc: jvankol...@mfpc.us 
Subject: ESFR Sprinklers Spacing and Height Criteria


**I know this is something I would need to get a waiver on by the AHJ.

  1.  I have a building just over 30’-0” by 4” does anyone how critical these 
4” are, if the 30’-0” criteria were used?



  1.  Also the building has Wide Flanges beams sectioning off the Roof. Could 
one use the under 30’-0” spacing criteria (12’-0”) in these lower bays even if 
it is still the same room as the high roof?





Jerry Van Kolken

Millennium Fire Protection Corp.

2950 San Luis Rey Rd.

Oceanside, CA 92058

(760) 722-2722 FX 722-2730


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Re: [EXTERNAL] ESFR's and unit heaters

[Mike Hairfield via Sprinklerforum]

214 degree ESFR’s are made

Thar’s what I use

ASCOA back in the day made 286 degree

Mike

Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 20, 2019, at 10:47 AM, Kyle.Montgomery via Sprinklerforum 
mailto:sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org>>
 wrote:

Also, how are you complying with the temperature rating when you are that close 
to a unit heater? Are they making any high temperature ESFRs yet?

From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Kyle.Montgomery via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2019 7:40 AM
To: 
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: Kyle.Montgomery 
mailto:kmontgom...@aerofire.com>>; Ed Kramer 
mailto:e...@bamfordfire.com>>
Subject: RE: [EXTERNAL] ESFR's and unit heaters

I’m looking at the code again, and you may be right. But I always thought that 
an obstruction that close to the sprinkler (could you quantify “just below the 
ESFR deflectors”) would have to meet the rules for “Obstruction at or Near 
Ceiling”, 8.12.5.1.

Are we saying that 8.12.5.1 only applies if the obstruction extends above the 
deflector? I thought that anything in that 0”-31” below the deflector range 
(shown in Table 8.12.5.1.1) was considered “at or near the ceiling”.

Kyle Montgomery
 
Aero Automatic Sprinkler Co.
21605 N. Central Ave.
Phoenix, AZ 85024
Direct: 623.580.7820
Cell: 602.763.4736
kmontgom...@aerofire.com



From: Sprinklerforum [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@lists.firesprinkler.org] On 
Behalf Of Ed Kramer via Sprinklerforum
Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2019 6:23 AM
To: 
sprinklerforum@lists.firesprinkler.org
Cc: Ed Kramer mailto:e...@bamfordfire.com>>
Subject: [EXTERNAL] ESFR's and unit heaters

I’m looking for a bit of a reality check this morning.   Got an ESFR sprinkler 
system and unit heaters.  In plan view, the heaters are 21” by 40”.  Top of the 
heaters will be just below the ESFR deflectors, and they will be located at 
least 1’ horizontally from the ESFR sprinklers.  It appears that NFPA 13 (2013) 
section 8.12.5.2 applies.

Subsection (2) reads: “Additional sprinklers shall not be required where the 
obstruction is 2 ft or less in width and the sprinkler is located horizontally 
1 ft or greater from the nearest edge of the obstruction.”

Since the heater is 2’ or less in its smaller dimension (width), does it matter 
that the other dimension (length) is greater than 2’?  I say the length is not 
relevant (unless its long enough to obstruct more than 1 sprinkler, then 
section 8.12.5.3 applies), and subsection (2) allows me to not install a 
sprinkler below these heaters.

How do the rest of you interpret this?

Thanks
Ed Kramer
Bamford Fire
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