Re: [sqlite] which tool do they use to generate the SQL Syntax diagrams?

[Jens Miltner]

FWIW - you can still get a textual description at 
...



Am 20.04.2009 um 15:59 schrieb J. King:

> On Mon, 20 Apr 2009 08:59:02 -0400, Jean-Denis Muys  >
> wrote:
>
>>> It's a shame: I far preferred the BNF: more compact, not to  
>>> mention you
>>> could copy and paste as well as search the text of the syntax  
>>> itself.
>>
>> "shame"? Are you sure that's the word you wanted to use?
>
> Quite sure, yes.
>
>> - compactness: very weak argument, maybe even a strawman.
>
> Merely poorly articulated; my apologies.
>
>> - copy & paste: the last time I wanted to copy & paste the formal  
>> syntax
>> of
>> any language was... about right around when dinosaurs went extinct.
>
> I've found it useful in helping (remote) colleagues and  
> acquaintances less
> familiar with SQLite.
>
>> - search: I don't think there is any valid or interesting search of  
>> BNF
>> except for the keywords of the language, which *are* searchable  
>> with the
>> syntax diagrams.
>
> I've grown very used to using inline searching with my Web browser:  
> it was
> very useful for me to highlight and isolate specific keywords in a  
> given
> syntax definition, as they appear in context.
>
>> In all these "read-only" situations, you want the grammar to be very
>> fast to read and understand.
>>
>> This is where syntax diagrams excel: the cognitive load to understand
>> them is far less than BNF (for the majority of people).
>
> I must be unusual, then, because I find that a compact representation
> allows me to see the whole very quickly, while also being able to  
> focus on
> a single part.  Perhaps what trips me up about the current syntax  
> diagrams
> is their two-dimentional nature: thereas the BNF was read linearly,
> options in the syntax diagrams are arranged perpendicular to the  
> flow of
> the syntax, and once one runs out of horizontal space for the diagram
> (which seems to happen faster with such images and cannot be  
> alleviated by
> increasing one's line length) the directions of the lines and arrows  
> can
> get fairly difficult to decypher.
>
> That the BNF was expressed in colour-coded text helped considerably  
> also:
> could this not be done with the syntax diagrams (assuming it can be  
> done
> in such a way that they don't end up looking gaudy)?
>
> Obviously this is all a matter of personal preference, and my aim  
> was not
> to start an argument by expressing mine, Jean-Denis.  If I am among  
> the
> minority, so be it.  Fortunately I am by now sufficiently familiar  
> with
> SQLite's syntax that the diagrams suffice when I need a refresher. :)
>
> -- 
> J. King
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Re: [sqlite] which tool do they use to generate the SQL Syntax diagrams?

[ntr]

Very thanks!

2009/4/20 D. Richard Hipp 

>
> On Apr 20, 2009, at 12:38 AM, ntr wrote:
>
>  Hi all,
>>
>> Is any one knows what tool do they use to generate the SYNTAX (railroad)
>> diagrams
>> that describing the  SQL Syntax ??
>>
>> (on http://www.sqlite.org/syntaxdiagrams.html)
>>
>
> http://wiki.tcl.tk/21708
>
> D. Richard Hipp
> d...@hwaci.com
>
>
>
>
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Re: [sqlite] which tool do they use to generate the SQL Syntax diagrams?

[J. King]

On Mon, 20 Apr 2009 08:59:02 -0400, Jean-Denis Muys   
wrote:

>> It's a shame: I far preferred the BNF: more compact, not to mention you
>> could copy and paste as well as search the text of the syntax itself.
>
> "shame"? Are you sure that's the word you wanted to use?

Quite sure, yes.

> - compactness: very weak argument, maybe even a strawman.

Merely poorly articulated; my apologies.

> - copy & paste: the last time I wanted to copy & paste the formal syntax  
> of
> any language was... about right around when dinosaurs went extinct.

I've found it useful in helping (remote) colleagues and acquaintances less  
familiar with SQLite.

> - search: I don't think there is any valid or interesting search of BNF
> except for the keywords of the language, which *are* searchable with the
> syntax diagrams.

I've grown very used to using inline searching with my Web browser: it was  
very useful for me to highlight and isolate specific keywords in a given  
syntax definition, as they appear in context.

> In all these "read-only" situations, you want the grammar to be very  
> fast to read and understand.
>
> This is where syntax diagrams excel: the cognitive load to understand  
> them is far less than BNF (for the majority of people).

I must be unusual, then, because I find that a compact representation  
allows me to see the whole very quickly, while also being able to focus on  
a single part.  Perhaps what trips me up about the current syntax diagrams  
is their two-dimentional nature: thereas the BNF was read linearly,  
options in the syntax diagrams are arranged perpendicular to the flow of  
the syntax, and once one runs out of horizontal space for the diagram  
(which seems to happen faster with such images and cannot be alleviated by  
increasing one's line length) the directions of the lines and arrows can  
get fairly difficult to decypher.

That the BNF was expressed in colour-coded text helped considerably also:  
could this not be done with the syntax diagrams (assuming it can be done  
in such a way that they don't end up looking gaudy)?

Obviously this is all a matter of personal preference, and my aim was not  
to start an argument by expressing mine, Jean-Denis.  If I am among the  
minority, so be it.  Fortunately I am by now sufficiently familiar with  
SQLite's syntax that the diagrams suffice when I need a refresher. :)

-- 
J. King
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Re: [sqlite] which tool do they use to generate the SQL Syntax diagrams?

[Michael Schlenker]

J. King schrieb:
> On Mon, 20 Apr 2009 06:53:37 -0400, D. Richard Hipp  wrote:
> 
>> http://wiki.tcl.tk/21708
> 
> It's a shame: I far preferred the BNF: more compact, not to mention you  
> could copy and paste as well as search the text of the syntax itself.
> 
I guess it wouldn't be too hard to write a different output plugin for that
Tcl code to write BNFs instead of the syntax diagrams, the info must be in
the input data for that anyway.

So if you want BNFs back, plugin a different backend to that code.

Michael

-- 
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Software Engineer

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Re: [sqlite] which tool do they use to generate the SQL Syntax diagrams?

[Jean-Denis Muys]

On 4/20/09 2:35 PM, "J. King"  wrote:

> On Mon, 20 Apr 2009 06:53:37 -0400, D. Richard Hipp  wrote:
> 
>> http://wiki.tcl.tk/21708
> 
> It's a shame: I far preferred the BNF: more compact, not to mention you
> could copy and paste as well as search the text of the syntax itself.

"shame"? Are you sure that's the word you wanted to use?

I personally think those syntax diagrams are *better* than BNF (though no
shame either way).

- compactness: very weak argument, maybe even a strawman.
- copy & paste: the last time I wanted to copy & paste the formal syntax of
any language was... about right around when dinosaurs went extinct.
- search: I don't think there is any valid or interesting search of BNF
except for the keywords of the language, which *are* searchable with the
syntax diagrams.

Now *what are* the actual real-life uses of a formal specification of
SQLite's grammar? Realistically, there are few:

- look up the features of the language, typically to get a quick grasp of
the features, or to compare with another dialect of SQL
- check whether some [more or less obscure] construct is supported in the
grammar
- understand why some statement is rejected by SQLite (debugging).

In all these "read-only" situations, you want the grammar to be very fast to
read and understand.

This is where syntax diagrams excel: the cognitive load to understand them
is far less than BNF (for the majority of people).

I personally am rather experienced with formal grammars and BNF, but a
relative newbie with SQL and SQLite. I welcome the syntax diagrams.

Regards,

Jean-Denis

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Re: [sqlite] which tool do they use to generate the SQL Syntax diagrams?

[J. King]

On Mon, 20 Apr 2009 06:53:37 -0400, D. Richard Hipp  wrote:

> http://wiki.tcl.tk/21708

It's a shame: I far preferred the BNF: more compact, not to mention you  
could copy and paste as well as search the text of the syntax itself.

-- 
J. King
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Re: [sqlite] which tool do they use to generate the SQL Syntax diagrams?

[D. Richard Hipp]

On Apr 20, 2009, at 12:38 AM, ntr wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> Is any one knows what tool do they use to generate the SYNTAX  
> (railroad)
> diagrams
> that describing the  SQL Syntax ??
>
> (on http://www.sqlite.org/syntaxdiagrams.html)

http://wiki.tcl.tk/21708

D. Richard Hipp
d...@hwaci.com



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