Re: Why won't this work?

[trotfox]

On Wed, 25 Oct 2000, Jeanne Baer wrote:

> Not only do you need different sized cylinders for compounding to work, you
> need a good superheater as well as higher pressure. I suspect the Ruby has
> no superheater and though I don't know about the RH, I would suspect it does
> not when something as expensive (and as well thought of) as the Aster Mikado
> is also totally lacking in that department.

Actually, Roundhouse boilers are available with superheaters.  :)  Ruby
doesn't have one but is easily modified (I plan to do this to mine
eventually...)  I can see no good reason for not building a superheater
into an engine if you're going to build the thing in the first place.  ;]
 
> All of this is just a long-winded way of saying--Do it! Get whatever books
> you don't have, measure what's commercially available, do the calculations,
> and hope that Ruby and RH and whatever else will work. I wouldn't be
> surprised, though, if you have to get the tools eventually and scratch
> build--a lot.

*chuckle*  This wouldn't suprise me.  I likely will end up trying it, but
it's a ways off.  I simply don't have the money to play with right
now.  I'm saving for my wedding.  :) 

> Victor Lacy

Trot, the fox who shouldn't have bought that new car.  {:(


 TrotFox  \ Always remember,   /\-/\
AKA Landon Solomon \ "There is a  ( o o )
[EMAIL PROTECTED] \ third alternative."  >\./<
 

Re: Mike, minimum radius

[Jeanne Baer]

>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

>Date: Monday, October 23, 2000 2:34 PM

>Subject: Re: Mike, minimum radius


>Ok all you "Mike" owners.  What is the absolute minimum radius curve
that
>a "Mike" will go around.  I am limited for space but would like to be able
to
>run one on my layout whenever I get it built.
>
>Lloyd
>Portland OR
>

When I was building my Mikado kit I experimented with minimum radius by
pushing the chassis through various curves. The minimum I found was 5 1/2
feet. I didn't think I would have to go that tight but in one stretch of
track it turns out that I have. One part of the layout has about 25 feet of
straight track followed by a curve of varying radii. The first almost 90
degrees, however, is right at 5 1/2 feet. At a scale speed of better than 60
mph the locomotive sails right round the curve without complaint. It does,
though, snap into that curve like an O gauge Lionel under your Christmas
tree.

So yes, Lloyd, you too can have happy wheels on a happy track even in
Postage Stamp Land. (Does anyone refer to a really small yard as a postage
stamp anymore? I haven't heard the expression in years.)

Now for the warning. None of this cheerful news may apply to the particular
Mikado you end up getting from Aster.

Seeing observations on this list and elsewhere about building the kit and
running the engine (while doing both myself), I can only conclude that there
is a huge amount of variation from one kit or RTR loco to the next.

For example (problems I had that no one else mentioned):

The fittings on the back of my boiler had so little clearance that I had to
do a dryassembly twice in order to establish the exact order of
assembly;

The boiler casing interferred with the weigh shaft so much that I had to
file a deep gash in the casing in order to attach the boiler;

The reverse frame would not allow the valve gear to go into either full
forward or full reverse. Even at the extreme positions of the lever the
engine was so far out of either forward or reverse that it affected the
starting of the engine. I took out the entire reversing mechanism and
installed radio control.

Two more examples (problems others had which I did not):

The tender pump was unsatisfactory for many. I've had no trouble at all;

My engine happily goes around a curve which even Aster says it shouldn't.
Other engines seem to protest at twice my radius (or more).

I started writing this comment to be helpful. I have my doubts I've
succeeded.

Victor Lacy
 

Re: Why won't this work?

[Jeanne Baer]

>He also ran into a similar issue trying to compound his RH-based
>mallet.  As I see it the problem with building a compound out of two
>identical engines is simple.  Once you get the loco moving the rear set
>will be pushing normally while the fronts will be acting as dead weight
>due to not being able to produce enough power from the cooled steam.  The
>steam leaves the rear set at a lower presure and temperature than it
>enters (else the loco doesn't move) and then it needs to do the same at
>the front set.  If you're running identical bore/stroke on both sets of
>running gear, the front set looses power when compaired to the rear set
>and doesn't do much in the way of pulling.  When you account for friction
>(and that the Ruby isn't all that strong to begin with, well mine
>isn't...) this may explain why it's not working on steam but is fine on
>air.  Giving the rears a higher presure and letting the steam expand into
>the fronts (which need to have more piston to push on... and more room to
>fill) may well allow this setup to work.
>
>I get the feeling it's just that we gauge one'ers don't normally run high
>enough boiler pressure to make this system work, but I don't
>know.  :)  I'm thinking 50-60 PSI should work.
>
Not only do you need different sized cylinders for compounding to work, you
need a good superheater as well as higher pressure. I suspect the Ruby has
no superheater and though I don't know about the RH, I would suspect it does
not when something as expensive (and as well thought of) as the Aster Mikado
is also totally lacking in that department.

If you look at the previous generation of designers and writers (I am
thinking of Martin Lewis, Martin Evans, LBSC, and Henry Greenly in
particular) you will find that they all used 80-100 psi (and even 120 psi in
a few cases) in everything from 1/4" to 1 1/2 " scale. Martin Evans, for
example, calls for 100 psi in his O gauge Royal Scot.

All these designers (with the exception of Lewis) also used superheaters
even in the smallest gauges. The only exception that I actually have in my
possession is in the blueprints for LBSC's 2 1/2" gauge Olympiade. Though no
superheater is shown the size of one of the flues, the position of the steam
pipe, and the position of the steam spider (it's a 3 cylinder loco) show
that he mounted one in the boiler. This is a variant on typical LBSC
behavior. He was notorious for publishing a set of plans or a whole book and
then building his personal version of the engine quite differently.

For some reason, (liabilty concerns?) it seems as if these low steam
pressures and no
superheaters have become typical of modern RTR and fully-machined kit locos.
J. Alexander all over again.

All of this is just a long-winded way of saying--Do it! Get whatever books
you don't have, measure what's commercially available, do the calculations,
and hope that Ruby and RH and whatever else will work. I wouldn't be
surprised, though, if you have to get the tools eventually and scratch
build--a lot.

Victor Lacy

 

Re: Mikado, minimum radius

[SALTYCRABB]

In a message dated 10/24/00 7:10:05 PM Central Daylight Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

<< Maybe I should buy a chunk of Texas and become a "winter Texan."   Going 
 to practice my drawl y'all!  :-) >>

No need to buy the real estate.  Just get yourself a motor home and bring 
your engines.  You can run on these elevated tracks all winter long then 
invite us up north for the summer.y'all hear now!  

Jim in Houston 

Re: Loco Steam Model Engineers

[Charles Brumbelow]

Is there an address and -- hopefully -- a url for Walsall?  My search
engine turned up about 12,000 matches for the word, most of which seemed
to be football/soccer scores.  Thanks, Charles

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> 
> The guy running it has been ill the last few months.
> 
> That said, under several owners, it has been a managerial bad joke for years.
> A shame because their catalogue of items was uniquely useful for
> small-steamers.
> Luckily, for vital things such as wheel castings, there are alternative
> suppliers such as Walsall who appear to know it is year 2000.
> 
> Art Walker 

Re: Mikado, minimum radius

[SaltyChief]

In a message dated 00-10-24 13:56:22 EDT, you write:

<< here is a big difference between "barely going through" and running at 
 speed.  I personally believe that if you expect to run (or have others run) 
 anything except 0-4-0 and 0-6-0 engines that you should have 10 foot radii.  
 All of the big tracks at Diamondhead and the NSS have that and greater and 
 still some of the bigger engines have trouble. >>
  Well folks I am a city dweller and do not have acres to lay a railroad 
on.  If I did I would probably go to a larger guage railroad that I could 
ride on like some of the more fortunate members of this list have.  I will be 
pushing my luck to squeeze in a 14 foot diameter.  There is more space but 
the friendly gardener of the houshold said that it is off limits.  I think 
that I can come up with a large enough radius, ie 2 meter loop, to run a Mike 
on but not much more.
 Maybe I should buy a chunk of Texas and become a "winter Texan".   Going 
to practice my drawl y'all!  :-)

Salty of the North Land 

Re: Mikado, minimum radius

[Peter Trounce]

Six feet radius ?
Ouch, pretty squeezy.
OK for 0-4-0 and 0-6-0 but not too much beyond is my guess.
Pity to limit the visitors you can welcome, if there's any way round it.
Peter Trounce.

--
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: Re: Mikado, minimum radius
> Date: Tuesday, October 24, 2000 1:10 PM
> 
> Well that information is good to know.  I will have to adjust my plan
to 
> get the two meter radius.  I was planning on a six foot radius for the
main 
> line as my space is somewhat limited. but do not want to limit what I
will be 
> able to run on this layout.  Some day I hope to have a "Mike", but my
wife 
> says no more locomotives until I get a layout built.  I wonder what she
is 
> going to say when I tell her I want to spend $4000 + on an engine
>What about some of the other larger live steam locomotives?  Will they

> handle the two meter radius?
>
> Salty
> Portland OR  

Re: Mikado, minimum radius

[Peter Trounce]

Don't think I can answer that.
Obviously, the more coupled wheels, the more likely to give a problem. But
it could also run into truck sideways movement problems.
So, nine feet I know no problems. Eight feet, can't say.
Don't forget, guys, if your curves are not smoth curves, you could have
a tight local radius to give you a problem. Run a loco round while you are
laying track to even out the tight spots.
Peter Trounce.
--
> From: David M. Cole <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: Re: Mikado, minimum radius
> Date: Tuesday, October 24, 2000 12:17 PM
> 
> At 8:34 AM -0700 10/24/00, Peter Trounce wrote:
> >I don't know any Aster which will not go happily round 9 foot radius
> 
> We're days away from beginning construction on the Grand Teton &
Everglades
> ... what engines will be prevented from using an eight-foot radius?
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> \dmc
> 
> 
>  

Re: Mikado, minimum radius

[Geoff Spenceley]

Great stuff, Mr Lunky, I wish I had known earlier!  I built a  stub switch
for the storage track on   my ( A-Hem)  3-1/2" track. It works fine but I
wish I had known about the swivel rail instead of the frog! The cast one I
used took a coon's age of filing and trimming to get it smooth.

Sometime time, somehow, can you do a bit on your stub switches,
(particularly the swivel rail  in SiTG?)  Much easier to make for many of
us helpless old fogies. Fort Humboldt up here may have such a switch, I'll
have to check.

Geoff.




Instead of points, it works like a stub switch. The lead in rails move
>laterally to line up with either the thru track or the off track.
>At the location of the frog there is a swivel rail. By connected linkage, the
>swivel rail either aligns with the thru rails or the off rails.
>A turnout of this type was used in Australia on as narrow gauge line in the
>1800's.
>To the best of my knowledge there are six of them in existence today, and
>they are all the property of the SWAMP RR.
>If the turnout is properly aligned, there is no chance of derailing. There is
>no "Jump" at the place a frog should be.
>I have converted conventional turnouts to a frogless turnout and it works
>well. Eliminates the "LGB Bounce."
>Keep your steam up!
>Walt & Mr. Lunkenheimer


 

Re: NMRA-type Gauge

[halfdan]

- Original Message -
From: Dr. Robert M. Blackson
Subject: NMRA-type Gauge


>Where I bought it I do not recall, ...

Hey, Bob-I bought a similar brass track gauge from Russ Simpson many years
ago, but believe it or not, the gauge is for 1 1/2" between the rails(the
proper distance for 1/24" scale three foot narrow gauge). I did notice that
he also offered a #1 gauge track standards gauge By the way, the catalog
I used to place my order was absolutely beautiful-strange scales
notwithstanding, well worth the $5 cost. For coupler height, I have always
used the Kadee #1 gauge height gauge, which  has some other #1 standards
measures as well.  Cheers, Eric
 

Re: Mikado, minimum radius

[WaltSwartz]

Instead of points, it works like a stub switch. The lead in rails move 
laterally to line up with either the thru track or the off track.
At the location of the frog there is a swivel rail. By connected linkage, the 
swivel rail either aligns with the thru rails or the off rails.
A turnout of this type was used in Australia on as narrow gauge line in the 
1800's.
To the best of my knowledge there are six of them in existence today, and 
they are all the property of the SWAMP RR.
If the turnout is properly aligned, there is no chance of derailing. There is 
no "Jump" at the place a frog should be. 
I have converted conventional turnouts to a frogless turnout and it works 
well. Eliminates the "LGB Bounce."
Keep your steam up!
Walt & Mr. Lunkenheimer 

Re: Mikado, minimum radius

[Bruce Gathman]

WALT,
Can you explain how you can have a turnout without a
frog or some sort of points.

On Tue, 24 Oct 2000 15:19:41 EDT, you wrote:

>The portable track I had at DH for a few years had 10' radius turnouts. 
>However, they did not have a frog or points, so that may have been the 
>difference.
>Keep your steam up!
>Walt 

Re: Nut Drivers

[M. Paterson]

With the usual disclaimer:  In San Jose California 
Mr. Metric
960 North 10th Street
San Jose, Ca 
(408) 286 8816

This firm specializes in metric tools and fasteners.
If they do not have it in stock they will order.  No
minimum order as ever been a question when dealing
with them over the counter.
mp

--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>  Here is an idea that I might throw out to those
> that might be interested.
>  In my frutile attempts to find small nut
> drivers in metric sizes that 
> seem to be very scarce I obtained some metric socket
> head cap screws.  These 
> I turned the heads down to remove most of the excess
> material to nearly the 
> size of the screw diameter.  If you turn them down
> too far they will break.  
> I then turned down the other end to remove about the
> first half of the 
> threads.  I can now insert them into a General Tool
> pin vice (looks like a 
> jewelers screw driver with a collet on one end)  The
> pin vice has two 
> different collets with four different size holes.  I
> now have a very 
> functional small nut driver.  I plan on doing the
> same thing with some small 
> SAE screws.
>  All I have to find now is the tiny little
> metric taps and dies.  Any 
> Ideas
> 
> Salty
> Portland OR 


__
Do You Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Messenger - Talk while you surf!  It's FREE.
http://im.yahoo.com/ 

Re: Aster needs 50 foot diameter curves?

[Peter Trounce]

Absolutely no problem, Gary, with any Aster that I know of on 10foot radius
curves. Period.
Big Boy, Northern and on down.
Track should be to normal standards, nothing special.
Preferably not 100+ mph round corners !!!
For reverse S-curves, it is desirable to have some straight or easing
between the curves to avoid the overscale sideways throw-over, particularly
with long cars.
Peter Trounce.

--
> From: Gary Lane <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: Aster needs 50 foot diameter curves?
> Date: Tuesday, October 24, 2000 12:39 PM
> 
> I agree that larger curves and switches look and work better for more
engines,
> but do Aster's really need 50 foot diameter curves in the switch to run
through
> without binding?
> A 10' radius switch has a 20' diameter... I am just panicking because I
> designed all my curves to be 20 feet diameter and now wonder if Asters
can
> negotiate the trestle.
> http://www.angelfire.com/or/trainguy/
> Gary Lane
> Eugene, OR
>  

Re: Mikado, minimum radius

[WaltSwartz]

The portable track I had at DH for a few years had 10' radius turnouts. 
However, they did not have a frog or points, so that may have been the 
difference.
Keep your steam up!
Walt 

Re: Mikado, minimum radius

[SALTYCRABB]

In a message dated 10/24/00 12:12:48 PM Central Daylight Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

<< What about some of the other larger live steam locomotives?  Will they 
 handle the two meter radius? >>

My 2 ¢ FTIW --

There is a big difference between "barely going through" and running at 
speed.  I personally believe that if you expect to run (or have others run) 
anything except 0-4-0 and 0-6-0 engines that you should have 10 foot radii.  
All of the big tracks at Diamondhead and the NSS have that and greater and 
still some of the bigger engines have trouble.

Clark Lord will tell you to build no less than 12 foot radii and use #8 or 
#10 turnouts in order to have a smooth operation at scale speeds.

I also understand the constraint of space.  Most Roundhouse engines, though 
not looking realistic, will "make" it around tighter curves.  Aster's will 
not.  Measure twice and cut once!

Jim Crabb
Houston  Area (where a lot of "Winter Texans" come to play), Texas

Re: Mikado, minimum radius

[SaltyChief]

Well that information is good to know.  I will have to adjust my plan to 
get the two meter radius.  I was planning on a six foot radius for the main 
line as my space is somewhat limited. but do not want to limit what I will be 
able to run on this layout.  Some day I hope to have a "Mike", but my wife 
says no more locomotives until I get a layout built.  I wonder what she is 
going to say when I tell her I want to spend $4000 + on an engine
   What about some of the other larger live steam locomotives?  Will they 
handle the two meter radius?
   
Salty
Portland OR 

Aster needs 50 foot diameter curves?

[Gary Lane]

I agree that larger curves and switches look and work better for more engines,
but do Aster's really need 50 foot diameter curves in the switch to run through
without binding?
A 10' radius switch has a 20' diameter... I am just panicking because I
designed all my curves to be 20 feet diameter and now wonder if Asters can
negotiate the trestle.
http://www.angelfire.com/or/trainguy/
Gary Lane
Eugene, OR

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> In a message dated 10/24/00 3:01:03 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
>
> >  Aster says it's rated to 2 meter radius.
>
> I was at a local 'steam up' this weekend and showed the host my new #6
> turnout kit from Old Pullman (photo on FSOL if you're interested.)  He told
> me that most of the Aster locos prefer much wider curves than advertised -
> they bind horribly on #6 (10') radius curves.
>
> He didn't say they wouldn't go through - but he showed me all his turnouts
> are now #10 (25' radius.)
>
> Pete
>
> Peter Thornton
> Annapolis, MD
 

Re: Mikado, minimum radius

[David M. Cole]

At 8:34 AM -0700 10/24/00, Peter Trounce wrote:
>I don't know any Aster which will not go happily round 9 foot radius

We're days away from beginning construction on the Grand Teton & Everglades
... what engines will be prevented from using an eight-foot radius?

Thanks.

\dmc


^^^
Dave Cole
Gen'l Sup't:  Grand Teton & Everglades Steam Excursion Co.
  Pacifica, Calif. USA  
List Mom: sslivesteam, the list of small-scale live steamers
  
Editor:   TRELLIS & TRESTLE, the newsletter of the
  Bay Area Garden Railway Society 
  
Webconductor: Pacific Coast Live Steamers 
  
^^^

 

Re: Mikado, minimum radius

[Peter Trounce]

Peter,
Just t'aint so.
I don't know any Aster which will not go happily round 9 foot radius
curves. That's what we had on our show track and Hudsons, a Big Boy, a
French 2-8-2, you name it, went round at any likely speed without binding,
on commercial Tenmille track.
My own track is 10 foot radius and I've had an Aster 4-8-4 Daylight run OK
by a visitor.
I wonder about your friend's track though, if it was built too narrow on
gauge ? One thing that can happen, is that in screwing down a track to the
base, particularly with plastic ties, if the screws are in the centre of
the ties and overtightened, the tie will lift at the ends, and narrow the
gauge enough to cause binding.
My Aster 141R 2-8-2 has also run on hand-laid 7ft 6in radius happily, but
the owner had widened the gauge a bit on the curves.
Hope this helps,
Peter Trounce.


--
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: Re: Mikado, minimum radius
> Date: Tuesday, October 24, 2000 9:39 AM
> 
> In a message dated 10/24/00 3:01:03 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
>  
> >  Aster says it's rated to 2 meter radius.  
> 
> I was at a local 'steam up' this weekend and showed the host my new #6 
> turnout kit from Old Pullman (photo on FSOL if you're interested.)  He
told 
> me that most of the Aster locos prefer much wider curves than advertised
- 
> they bind horribly on #6 (10') radius curves.
> 
> He didn't say they wouldn't go through - but he showed me all his
turnouts 
> are now #10 (25' radius.)
> 
> Pete
> 
> Peter Thornton
> Annapolis, MD   

Re: Loco Steam Model Engineers

[Peter Trounce]

Jun,
In the current G1MRA Newsletter there is a letter from Mike Wade that he
had an illness at the end of 1999, and has had to take it easy this year,
and that LocoSteam would be reducing the size of their business in future.
So probably that is the reason that you have heard nothing on your order,
Peter Trounce.

--
> From: $B5L@n!!=c(B <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: Loco Steam Model Engineers
> Date: Tuesday, October 24, 2000 7:25 AM
> 
> I ordered cylinder kit and boiler kit by money order on 4 July , 2000.
> And I ordered screw link and coupling by money order on 31 August ,
> 2000. But I have not received them yet . I sent a letter of inquiry
> twice. I don't hear from Loco Steam. I wonder what is Loco Steam?
> 
> 
> 
>Jun  Kitsukawa
>   4-10-15  KugenumaSakuragaoka
>   Fujisawa
>   Kanagawa  251-0027   JAPAN
> 
>   

Re: Mikado, minimum radius

[Pthornto]

In a message dated 10/24/00 3:01:03 AM Eastern Daylight Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 
>  Aster says it's rated to 2 meter radius.  

I was at a local 'steam up' this weekend and showed the host my new #6 
turnout kit from Old Pullman (photo on FSOL if you're interested.)  He told 
me that most of the Aster locos prefer much wider curves than advertised - 
they bind horribly on #6 (10') radius curves.

He didn't say they wouldn't go through - but he showed me all his turnouts 
are now #10 (25' radius.)

Pete

Peter Thornton
Annapolis, MD  

Re: Driver Quartering

[Casey Sterbenz]

If anyone is interested in a quartering jig for use with plain round axle 
ends, there is a reprint of a Model Railroader article in the Files area of 
the OTrains list at eGroups.com.  Signup for the OTrains list is free and is 
required before you are allowed into the files area.

This jig can be made of a size suitable for G gauge modeling.

Casey Sterbenz


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http://profiles.msn.com.
 

Re: Question re bar frames/laser cutting

[Jim Curry]

Walt,

That's very good to know, thank you.

Jim
 

Re: Coupler height

[Casey Sterbenz]

Seems like the prototype had much the same problem in the link and pin days. 
  The block used to hold the link often had three slots to accommodate 
differences in height between various combinations of rolling stock from 
different roads.

Casey Sterbenz


>From: "Phil. Paskos" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Subject: Re: Coupler height
>Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2000 18:37:50 -0400
>
>Vance;
>  You are,of course, correct. And with so many different manufacturers 
>making
>so many different gauges, I'm sure we'll be SOL on getting them too.
>
>Phil.P. Reading,PA.
>

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NMRA-type Gauge

[Dr. Robert M. Blackson]

   Where I bought it I do not recall, but I have a NMRA-type standards gauge
made of brass which is close to square.  The four sides have tabs or groves
as needed for "points," "flangeways," "wheels," and "track."  The paper that
came with it is marked $10.00, and what I guess is the catalog number on the
paper is #19760.  This, of course, won't help with couplers, but it is
similar in some respects to the brass standards gauges for HO and N.
Bob Blackson