RE: flying bumble bee
> >Seriously though, this is how this urban myth first arose. >From my reading I recall the bumble bee was thought too heavy for its wings given the >previously understood pattern of wing motion. It was discovered using modern high speed photography that the wings were moving in somewhat of a figure 8 pattern rather than beating up and down thus giving lift in the forward stroke as well as the backward stroke. GaryB
RE: Re: Traction Engine
>Gary, > > There is no consideration!! Be in DH, bring the traction engine-- no >excuses --I'll oil it, clean it and buy you lunch! > >Geoff. >> Gary >>If you are coming to Diamond head would you consider bringing that traction >>engine? While it isn't a locomotive it is live steam and I for one would >>sure like to see that critter. >> >>Salty Geoff, Salty, My goodness, I did not realize we had a couple of traction engine fans here. It would be a blast to bring it to DH but there are 2 problems ( not excuses Geoff but thanks for the offers!) 1, I regret that I will not be going to DH in Jan. 2, It would present a bit of a problem being carry-on luggage! Sacramento next summer would be a better bet though! GaryB
Re: Traction Engine
Gary, There is no consideration!! Be in DH, bring the traction engine-- no excuses --I'll oil it, clean it and buy you lunch! Geoff. In a message dated 00-12-27 20:48:45 EST, you write: > ><< The white gas or spirit as you call it will indeed work. I have a model >traction engine that my Grandfather > scratch built in about 1905 with just that >> > Gary >If you are coming to Diamond head would you consider bringing that traction >engine? While it isn't a locomotive it is live steam and I for one would >sure like to see that critter. > >Salty
RE: Kerosene fueling
Isn't Susan a great asset to our list? Lot's of thought provoking ideas. Anyone for solar heat--the oven baking cake with a light bulb submitted by Trent gave me this thought. Of course it wouldn't work inside at DH but there is always a lot of "hot" air lurking around--(don't look at me!) I mentioned once some time ago-sorry for the repeat, that I owned a vertical boiler freelance logging loco S/B by a friend. 3-1/2'-3/4" scale: It had a lava rock bed (firebox) that was kerosene gravity fed and very uncomplicated. It was a fantastic runner and the needle valve feed could control the fire very well with some practice. It was reasonable safe too, as it needed the exhaust or blower to keep the fire up. There was some danger in carelessness in over feed causing a nice track fire--tho that NEVER happened to me--Ha you say!! Well just one tiny little fire --once! Later, the little boiler was damaged 'cos I let a steamer not accustomed to feed pumps run it (my fault for lack of instructions)-- they thought that if the bypass valve was open it would feed water to the boiler!! There were 50 tubes in that boiler and it took some repair!! There was still some blow which kept the fire going enough to damage the tubes at the top of the boiler OK Susan--your design for a solar run loco please! Geoff. As Susan wrote: >Many thanks to everyone for their comments on and off the list. > >I have been cautioned as to kerosene, however I can assure everyone that I >am not intending to make a fireball in the kitchen (flambeed custards >perhaps). > >Just to widen the discussion for the moment I am listing some fuels with >comments for you to add to or correct (I have probably missed a few). > > >Wood: >Not appropriate, in my case, as the prototype was oil fired. > >Coal: >Not appropriate as the prototype was oil fired. > >Methanol: >Low heat generation: Safe(ish) as often used in "toy" steamers e.g. Mammod. >N.B: Not safe to drink, some health issues. > >Ethanol: >Higher heat generation. Safe(ish) as can be extinguished with water. >I don't know how practical this is in the UK as the Customs and Excise >people tax this stuff like you Americans wouldn't believe (or maybe post >Prohibition you would). Probably better off burning dollar bills or Malt >Whiskey (the latter would smell better than JP-5 aviation kerosene too). >Wick burners commonly used. >Pro: Left overs can be added to the punch bowl. Some health issues from >over exposure (*hic*). > >White Spirit: >? >Use in Primus style burner. >Safety issues? > >Petrol (lead free preferred): >Use in Primus style burner. >Safety issues? > >Kerosene: >Cannot be extinguished with water. >Smell problem when used indoors? >Gravity fed porous "rock" or pressurized vapor burner. > >Diesel: >Similar problems to Kerosene. > >Butane: >Gas of choice? >Ceramic burner or gas jet(s). >Problems with maintaining feed pressure when cold. > >Propane or Butane/Propane mix: >Not allowed by G1 society as considered too dangerous. >Could use camping gaz cartridges placed in tender to supply gas directly >which might overcome the safety concerns but these are far too large for >1/32nd scale use. > >Electricity: >Pro: Clean and on demand: >Con: Huge battery required for any sort of reasonable operating time (like >truck battery size), or fully electrified track (*sizzle-sizzle*). > >Candles: >Hum, night light power! >Might be possible to make a multi wick candle using night lights in a >special holder. >Can't see how to make it work in my locomotive because of access problems. >But might be possible for other designs. >Certainly would chuck out a fair amount of heat. The 24 candles (a token >amount, I am older than that) on my birthday cake last summer melted the >chocolate icing in very short order, the cake had to do an emergency stop >in the freezer before being sliced up. Although in the end it didn't save >the chocolate (*sticky smile*). > >Other Fuels/Energy Sources:
Re: Traction Engine
> << The white gas or spirit as you call it will indeed work. I missed the original post here, but I want to comment on some terminology here. "White gas" is unleaded gasoline. It is used in camping stoves. "Spirit" is ethyl alcohol. It goes by the trade name "Everclear" if it's drinkable, or "denatured alcohol" if not. Denaturing involves adding a little methyl alcohol, which is toxic and will make you vomit. Both of these are highly flammable and thus suitable for use in model steam engines. They do have different characteristics, however, and may or may not be interchangeable. I think you should find out (if possible) what the engine was designed to use, and stick with that. You don't want to ruin your boiler or fuel system by using the wrong stuff. Don't forget to add a couple of drops of blue food coloring to the container, so you know which is water and which is fuel! regards, -vance- Vance Bass Albuquerque, New Mexico, USA Small-scale live steam resources: http://www.nmia.com/~vrbass
Traction Engine
In a message dated 00-12-27 20:48:45 EST, you write: << The white gas or spirit as you call it will indeed work. I have a model traction engine that my Grandfather scratch built in about 1905 with just that >> Gary If you are coming to Diamond head would you consider bringing that traction engine? While it isn't a locomotive it is live steam and I for one would sure like to see that critter. Salty
Re: Kerosene fueling
Susan, 'Toy' steamers whether Mamods or Asters are generally fired by methylated spirits ie 'meths' NOT methanol. Meths is just ethanol(& a good dose of absorbed water)fouled up according to requirements of local Customs & Excise people to prevent the public drinking it & avoiding the crippling tax govs like to impose. I seem to remember a mailing from Capt. Lunkenheimer a while back reporting increased vigour from his toys by fuelling with methanol - the incresed volatility presumably outweighing the lower calorific value as per the butane/propane situation. GIMRA is a bit neurotic re B/P mixes which personally I think are OK in tender gas tanks - but we don't wish to reopen that debate I am sure ! Wait till they find out the transpondies have access to isobutane ! Good luck with the kerosene firing - can be done & is done in larger scales. But if you feel less adventurous, meths & the various gas firing arrangements are established procedures. Art Walker, Guildford, England
RE: Kerosene fueling
Hi, Many thanks to everyone for their comments on and off the list. I have been cautioned as to kerosene, however I can assure everyone that I am not intending to make a fireball in the kitchen (flambeed custards perhaps). Just to widen the discussion for the moment I am listing some fuels with comments for you to add to or correct (I have probably missed a few). Wood: Not appropriate, in my case, as the prototype was oil fired. Coal: Not appropriate as the prototype was oil fired. Methanol: Low heat generation: Safe(ish) as often used in "toy" steamers e.g. Mammod. N.B: Not safe to drink, some health issues. Ethanol: Higher heat generation. Safe(ish) as can be extinguished with water. I don't know how practical this is in the UK as the Customs and Excise people tax this stuff like you Americans wouldn't believe (or maybe post Prohibition you would). Probably better off burning dollar bills or Malt Whiskey (the latter would smell better than JP-5 aviation kerosene too). Wick burners commonly used. Pro: Left overs can be added to the punch bowl. Some health issues from over exposure (*hic*). White Spirit: ? Use in Primus style burner. Safety issues? Petrol (lead free preferred): Use in Primus style burner. Safety issues? Kerosene: Cannot be extinguished with water. Smell problem when used indoors? Gravity fed porous "rock" or pressurized vapor burner. Diesel: Similar problems to Kerosene. Butane: Gas of choice? Ceramic burner or gas jet(s). Problems with maintaining feed pressure when cold. Propane or Butane/Propane mix: Not allowed by G1 society as considered too dangerous. Could use camping gaz cartridges placed in tender to supply gas directly which might overcome the safety concerns but these are far too large for 1/32nd scale use. Electricity: Pro: Clean and on demand: Con: Huge battery required for any sort of reasonable operating time (like truck battery size), or fully electrified track (*sizzle-sizzle*). Candles: Hum, night light power! Might be possible to make a multi wick candle using night lights in a special holder. Can't see how to make it work in my locomotive because of access problems. But might be possible for other designs. Certainly would chuck out a fair amount of heat. The 24 candles (a token amount, I am older than that) on my birthday cake last summer melted the chocolate icing in very short order, the cake had to do an emergency stop in the freezer before being sliced up. Although in the end it didn't save the chocolate (*sticky smile*). Other Fuels/Energy Sources: ? What have I missed? Comments? I will be buying a foam fire extinguisher and fire blanket before trying any of the above. Should really have them for the kitchen anyway (not that I do any deep fat frying). And yes, I will let the list know of any progress. Don't hold you breaths though, as I am just about to start with the front 4 wheel truck. It is my intention to put up a web site at some point, and to include source material (e.g. wheel tire profiles) as well as drawings and pictures. The above fuel list could well be a page in it's own right. Best wishes for the New Year, Susan.
