RE: RE: Dead leg lubricator?
The Aster schools has a dead leg lubricator between the frames at the front of the loco. Any moisture or water in a system be it an air line or steam line will always go to the lowest spots, and the oil, being lighter than water, will rise to the top. This is a great example of two liquids flowing in opposite directions in the same tube. GaryB
Re: Ruby Tender
I've seen them in person but didn't have a camera on-hand to snap photos of them. I might be able to answer any specific questions you have. :) The IV's are cute as buttons people, very nifty extention of the loco. Trot, the lucky, foxy... ;] At 11:25 PM 2/1/01 -0600, you wrote: >Hello Everyone, > > I think I've seen this discussed here recently but couldn't come up with in >in the archives. > Does anyone have any pics of the Ruby IV (Ruby with a tender and gauge) that >St. Aubin Station is selling for $569.89? So far my searchs have come up empty >handed. Anyone seen it? > >Later, >Trent /\_/\ TrotFox \ Always remember, ( o o ) AKA Landon Solomon \ "There is a >\_/< [EMAIL PROTECTED] \ third alternative."
Re: Ruby Tender
Hello Everyone, I think I've seen this discussed here recently but couldn't come up with in in the archives. Does anyone have any pics of the Ruby IV (Ruby with a tender and gauge) that St. Aubin Station is selling for $569.89? So far my searchs have come up empty handed. Anyone seen it? Later, Trent
Re: Dead leg lubricator?
Ok guys and gals, another question tossed into this already deep discussion. What difference, if any, would placing the lubricator (dead leg or otherwise) in the smoke box have? For the life of me I can't think of the exact engine that I saw this done on, but only on that one engine. I didn't pay enough attention at the time to remember if it were pass through or dead leg, or to ask why it was placed in the smokebox. It may have only been for cosmetic reasons but I tend to think that that it really had a purpose for being there since the operator complained about the difficult access to the cap. (something about burned fingers ) Now, that being said, the lubricator MAY have actually been below the smokebox between the frames and only the cap was inside the smokebox so as to hide it from view. I wish I could remember more. Thoughts anyone? Later, Trent
Re: Dead leg lubricator?
Lunk and Walt, AMEN!?! The Lord of the Lubes has spoken! Geoff. Hi, >It has been a while since I've given much thought to capillary action, the >meniscus factor, etc. As I recall, capillary attraction and capillary rise >depends on the viscosity of the fluid, the diameter of the "tube," and type >of surface (smooth, rough, etc). A characteristic of good lubricating oils is >the ability to form a deep meniscus, I.e. good attraction to the walls of the >cylinder and able to "creep" up the walls and stick to the walls. That may >account for some of the movement of oil from the lubricator to the injection >point at the banjo. >Shsh, that danged college physics after me again? >Keep your steam up >and your cylinder walls slippery >Walt & Lunk
Re: Dead leg lubricator?
Dear Lunk, Please keep Walt in order--I think he knows more about lubricators than I do and is testing me!--The rascal--bite him! When did his Grandmother depart--bless her soul-I suspect about 200 years ago since your assitant, Walt, is so-o-o-o old! And also a comment on your comments, Steve. Seriously, if I can be- you have both made very valid points in my humble opinion- In fact with our little locos you have covered most of the bases-I think what Walt and Steve write; the conditions allows some steam into the lubricator which condenses depending on the temp of the lubricator--dead leg or otherwise. I believe the velocity of the steam in the tubinglowers the pressure thereby drawing oil from the lubricator which was pressurized when first admitting steam from the regulator. As the oil leaves the lubricator it is replaced with steam which condenses--this is done as the steam pressure fluctuates depending on the movement of the pistons etc., as you both describe. It's most probably cycling, but it is the pressure changes that draws the oil out or allows steam to enter the lubr. It puzzles me ( I'm easily puzzled!) as Kevin stated; why there is little or no condensate in some dead leg lubrs, I have a friend who S/Bs his locos using dead leg lubrs. The amount of condensate varies but generally there is quite a bit. However his lubricator is outside the vertical boiler with quite anamount of exterior tubing. I believe two of the factors involved are temp of the lubr and the dryness of the steam. I ran the Aster Stirling for 45 mins yesterday--52 dg with usual coastal humidity--only one drop of condensate yet oil was used! Was it because the steam was dry after going thru the superheater? Didn't have much stack steam either, indicating the steam was pretty dry. Ah well, I could go on and on but our small locos are not like a large 1/1 scale where extensive engineering would first be done. Too many factors involved: Pressure, volume, temp/saturation of steam, location of lubricator, dia and length of piping,- and steam consumption of the engine and how one uses the regulator. Who knows! Hey, as long as I get oil from the stack and have to clean off all the coaches, the oil out of my eyes-- and get the dry cleaning bills from my friends--then I'm happy!! Oh yes --I got two gallons of steam oil free!! Geoff. >Spen, >I wonder if the pressure in the line oscillates very rapidly because of the >valve action? >There would be times when all is closed and other times when you would have >partial steam flow, etc. Would that not alter the steam line pressure? >I'm not sure I understand all I know about this subject...to quote my >wise, but long departed, Grandmother. >Keep it up!, your steam that is. >Walt & Lunk
Re: Dead leg lubricator?
Hi, It has been a while since I've given much thought to capillary action, the meniscus factor, etc. As I recall, capillary attraction and capillary rise depends on the viscosity of the fluid, the diameter of the "tube," and type of surface (smooth, rough, etc). A characteristic of good lubricating oils is the ability to form a deep meniscus, I.e. good attraction to the walls of the cylinder and able to "creep" up the walls and stick to the walls. That may account for some of the movement of oil from the lubricator to the injection point at the banjo. Shsh, that danged college physics after me again? Keep your steam up and your cylinder walls slippery Walt & Lunk
RE: Dead leg lubricator?
Walt and the List, The operation of the dead-leg lubricator has me wondering also. If the pressure in the lubricator varies as the valves and pistons go through their cycles, then maybe condensation that is trapped below the lubricator oil during a period of high pressure expands and vaporizes when the pressure is reduced. Maybe the turbulent flow that is produced is the mechanism that carries the oil droplets up and into the steam line to the cylinders. This theory requires a small reservoir of condensed water in the lubricator, which would happen during steam up when the lubricator was comparatively cold. I wonder also if hot steam oil can "wick" up the inside of the steam line from the lubricator, and then get pushed up faster in little waves by the "pumping" action of the changing steam pressure. I know that cooking oil will wick up the inside of its container, but I always attributed that to chemical change over time creating a film on the container surface that would then allow additional oil to wick up, chemically change, and extend the film layer. Steve Shyvers
Re: Dead leg lubricator?
Spen, I wonder if the pressure in the line oscillates very rapidly because of the valve action? There would be times when all is closed and other times when you would have partial steam flow, etc. Would that not alter the steam line pressure? I'm not sure I understand all I know about this subject...to quote my wise, but long departed, Grandmother. Keep it up!, your steam that is. Walt & Lunk
RE: Feedwater Tank with no Pump
Steve, I believe that the water in both the tender tank and boiler would try to come to temperature equilibrium. Temperature equilibrium would require a higher heat output from the burner, because of heat losses in the tender. Topping up the boiler as required by pump allows the burner to be of lower output. Fuel consumption would be less because the tender does not need to be heated to the boiling point of water at whatever the boiler pressure is. A tank configuration would be more efficient, and you would have a form of water tube boiler. Insulating the tank would further increase the efficiency. Steve -Original Message- From: Ciambrone, Steve @ OS [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2001 5:03 PM To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam Subject: Feedwater Tank with no Pump I have been thinking of a way to extend the run time of locos and other model steam engines and wanted to run this by the list. The small engines have relatively small boilers with little water capacity. If one can increase the water capacity the with more fuel a longer run time can be achieved without manual refilling or a pump. My thought was to incorporate an auxiliary tank (in a Tender) which would have two lines to the boiler. The feed line would run from the bottom of the water tank to the bottom of the boiler. Another line the Vent would run from the top of the Feed tank to the top of the boiler. The feed tank would see the boiler pressure and be equalized. The water when used by the boiler should be fed by natural water level equalization and keep the boiler at the same level as the feed tank. Any increase to the available water would increase the run time. Of course the feed tank and lines would have to be rated for the working pressure of the boiler. A safety valve on the feed tank would be a wise precaution. Any more thoughts? Is their some factor I have overlooked? Sincerely Steve Ciambrone Sr. Test Engineer L-3 Ocean Systems
Wicks
Hey Walt & Lunk What are you using for wicks in your Mikado and how high are they? Clark
Re: Feedwater Tank with no Pump
Steve, This idea sounds very interesting. If you went with a saddle tank or a side tank loco, (say a Ruby!) then the connections could be solid, with no need to have flexible connections, as you would need with a tendered Loco. Also the heat issue should be lower, as the tank would be sitting right next to/on the boiler. If it were a saddle tanker, then you could simply omit the insulation and lagging under the tank, the same with the side tanks. The plumbing might be a bit tricky, but not too bad. Just my two cents. Terry Griner Columbus Ohio USA >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 02/01/01 08:51AM >>> Steve: Very interesting idea. In theory, with pressure equal in both tanks, the water will flow to the boiler. The auxiliary tank would be a pressure vessel, built to the same standards as a boiler. Shouldn't need it's own safety. You'd probably have to throw more Btu's at the boiler due to thermal "siphoning" through the vent line. Connections between the vessels would be a challenge but could be overcome. They may have to be oversize as well to overcome surface tension/line loss impeding the flow of replacement water. You will be denying yourself the opportunity to bond with your engine while in operation:>). Jim
Re: Feedwater Tank with no Pump
Steve, It would work, but only if the tender tank is very well insulated. The steam line will put steam into the tender where it will condense until the tender and its water heat up to steam temperature. Until then the tender will have a partial vacuum which will draw steam (and water) back from the boiler. And of course the tender water-level can only be the same as the boiler, at best. So you cannot start with a full tender, or run it down to less than a safe boiler level. Peter Trounce.
Re: Feedwater Tank with no Pump
I'm sorry that I missed the first message in this thread, which appears to have been an interesting and unorthodox method of feeding the boiler (by putting steam pressure into the tank? almost sounds like an injector is needed here). This brings to mind another very interesting feed mechanism developed by Len Marinocco, who in addition to ride-on locos has built an HO scale live steamer with a working feedwater supply system. I don't use the word "pump" there, because what he is using is, in essence, a pop-pop engine. He runs a loop of the water feed line along the top of the center flue, inside the boiler. When the water level is over it, the water in the feed line is very hot, but transferring heat to the surrounding water in the boiler shell. When the water falls below the feed line, the heat from the burner is transferred directly to the feed line, flashing the water into steam. There is a pair of check valves on either side of this loop, such that the steam flash pushes the water into the boiler, and then when the condensation cycle starts, the water is drawn in from the tender. The only moving parts are the balls in the check valves. The feedwater is heated to boiler temperature. The level is kept constant. It works, too. I'm sure that on our much larger locos such a system would require some experimentation with tubing size and length, to get the right size and length of tubing. I believe this could be done, however, with a fixed length inside the boiler and a variable cooling loop outside, which could be replaced using unions until the right balance was achieved. Plus, it's close enough (in operation, if not in principle) to an injector that I would not feel hesistant to claim having a "modified injector", in the same way that Roundhouse has a "modified Walschaerts" valve gear. Close enough, and it does the same thing! regards, -vance- Vance Bass Albuquerque, New Mexico, USA Small-scale live steam resources: http://www.nmia.com/~vrbass
Re: Feedwater Tank with no Pump
Steve: Very interesting idea. In theory, with pressure equal in both tanks, the water will flow to the boiler. The auxiliary tank would be a pressure vessel, built to the same standards as a boiler. Shouldn't need it's own safety. You'd probably have to throw more Btu's at the boiler due to thermal "siphoning" through the vent line. Connections between the vessels would be a challenge but could be overcome. They may have to be oversize as well to overcome surface tension/line loss impeding the flow of replacement water. You will be denying yourself the opportunity to bond with your engine while in operation:>). Jim
Feedwater Tank with no Pump
I have been thinking of a way to extend the run time of locos and other
model steam engines and wanted to run this by the list. The small engines
have relatively small boilers with little water capacity. If one can
increase the water capacity the with more fuel a longer run time can be
achieved without manual refilling or a pump.
My thought was to incorporate an auxiliary tank (in a Tender) which would
have two lines to the boiler. The feed line would run from the bottom of
the water tank to the bottom of the boiler. Another line the Vent would run
from the top of the Feed tank to the top of the boiler. The feed tank
would see the boiler pressure and be equalized. The water when used by the
boiler should be fed by natural water level equalization and keep the boiler
at the same level as the feed tank. Any increase to the available water
would increase the run time. Of course the feed tank and lines would have
to be rated for the working pressure of the boiler. A safety valve on the
feed tank would be a wise precaution.
Any more thoughts? Is their some factor I have overlooked?
Sincerely
Steve Ciambrone
Sr. Test Engineer
L-3 Ocean Systems
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Re: Feedwater Tank with no Pump
Hi, much would depend on the amount of heat loss in the plumbing and the aux. tank. Would the system heat ALL the water to boiling before the loco would move? Or would a check valve of some sort be necessary to keep the cold makeup water in the tender until needed in the boiler? Maybe it would be nice to have a Ruby run longer than 10 or 15 minutes, but I kind of get tired of seeing the bigger ones with pumps run more than the hour or so I now get on one fuel fill. Keep your steam up any way you can! Walt & Lunk
