Re: Sad News
Dear Keith, I am saddened to learn of George Murray's death. When I was a teenager trying to find a small live steam locomotive, I wrote to him concerning the purchase of an O gauge Neff Atlantic which he had advertised for sale in "The HO Monthly". Over the years, I collected copies of "The Live Steamer"which I still pull out and read from time to time. I had correspondence with him several years ago concerning the smaller gauge live steamers and he was able to fill in many of the gaps in the history of their development. George was a giant in our hobby and will be missed. Nick Wantiez Keith Taylor wrote:
Sad News
It is with a very heavy heart that I must pass on the following. This past Sunday, Feb. 4th, 2001 saw the passing of one of the Live Steam hobby's pioneers. George Murray, at age 92 succumbed to illness that had palagued him most of his adult life. While many do not remember him these days, George was the publisher of the very first all Live Steam magazine in the USA. For two years, 1950 and 1951, George wrote published and edited, singlehandedly, the magazine "The Live Steamer." He was an ardent modeler who had almost 100 locomotives pass through his shop. He had built entirely many locos, finished many that had been brought to him in buckets and did the final tuning and trouble shooting to countless others. His list of friends was a who's who of the hobby. The late L.B.S.C. (L. Lawrence) was a house guest of his. Carl Purinton, the founder of the IBLS and Bill Van Brocklin were among George's closest friends. George had written correspondance with literally hundreds all over the world. His interests included all scales from "0" and No. 1 gauges up to 7-1/4" gauge. He was particularly fond of the smaller gauges and was one of the few proponants of 1/2" scale 2-1/2" gauge right up until his death. He was engaged in building a 3/4" scale model of the New York Central and Hudson River Railroad's 999 at his passing. I, amongst his countless friends, will miss him greatly. Another of the Icons of our hobby has left us! Sincerely, Keith Taylor Secretary, East Coast USA Region IBLS
Re: Lubricators cont'd - long
Keith and Harry, Thanks for your explanations, with which I concur--by experience and screw ups (like Keith's): >I have often, due to forgetfulness, exhaustion (at DH for example) or >just being distracted, left a loco to cool down without cracking >anything open or draining the lubricator. I've not found any evidence of >oil in my boilers yet. I'm not saying it can't happen, but it has not >obviously happened to me. I won't make exhaustion the reason. I am like Lunk's asst and , it's just forgetfullness! Generally, I have only experienced oil in the boiler on one loco where the lubr is between the boiler and the regulator ( throttle )--as I recall, which isn't frequent!. The oil usually shows up in the sight glass--Q tips are useful! No sight glass, no worry! Wots a little oil in the boiler then! Side note to Gary Broeder, I changed my mind!! Geoff. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: >> >> Harry, >> The throttle line inlet is in the steam dome, thus it is not hysically in >> the boiler water. As the boiler cools, would this not create a suction, > >Here's my take on the "suction" question. Harry's point is that once a >vacuum has formed due to the condensing steam the lubricator becomes >part of the same vacuum chamber if it is located before the throttle. >Now if everything is under a vacuum, or at least the same low pressure, >nothing will move. It's like sucking lemonade through a straw with a >seed blocking the end. No matter how hard you suck, no juice! > >If the lubricator has a leak then air will flow through it to try to >equalize the pressure in the boiler. Now that may cause a little oil to >move back down the steam line. But remember the steam pipe is at the TOP >of the lubricator, and once the oil level has dropped below the tiny >hole it can only suck air. That's like sucking lemonade with the straw >out of the juice. So there is no possiblility of dumping the whole >contents of the lubricator into the boiler. In fact, depending on the >length of steam pipe it may never reach the boiler, just stay in the >pipe ready to pushed back to the cylinders the next time it's fired and >the throttle opened. > >I have often, due to forgetfulness, exhaustion (at DH for example) or >just being distracted, left a loco to cool down without cracking >anything open or draining the lubricator. I've not found any evidence of >oil in my boilers yet. I'm not saying it can't happen, but it has not >obviously happened to me. > >Cheers > >Keith > >-- >=== >Keith Manison Phone (876)702-0337 >7 Mulberry CloseFax (876)702-0661 >Jacks Hill P.A.Email [EMAIL PROTECTED] >Kingston 6, Jamaica W.I.
Re: Lubricators cont'd - long
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > Harry, > The throttle line inlet is in the steam dome, thus it is not hysically in > the boiler water. As the boiler cools, would this not create a suction, Here's my take on the "suction" question. Harry's point is that once a vacuum has formed due to the condensing steam the lubricator becomes part of the same vacuum chamber if it is located before the throttle. Now if everything is under a vacuum, or at least the same low pressure, nothing will move. It's like sucking lemonade through a straw with a seed blocking the end. No matter how hard you suck, no juice! If the lubricator has a leak then air will flow through it to try to equalize the pressure in the boiler. Now that may cause a little oil to move back down the steam line. But remember the steam pipe is at the TOP of the lubricator, and once the oil level has dropped below the tiny hole it can only suck air. That's like sucking lemonade with the straw out of the juice. So there is no possiblility of dumping the whole contents of the lubricator into the boiler. In fact, depending on the length of steam pipe it may never reach the boiler, just stay in the pipe ready to pushed back to the cylinders the next time it's fired and the throttle opened. I have often, due to forgetfulness, exhaustion (at DH for example) or just being distracted, left a loco to cool down without cracking anything open or draining the lubricator. I've not found any evidence of oil in my boilers yet. I'm not saying it can't happen, but it has not obviously happened to me. Cheers Keith -- === Keith Manison Phone (876)702-0337 7 Mulberry CloseFax (876)702-0661 Jacks Hill P.A.Email [EMAIL PROTECTED] Kingston 6, Jamaica W.I.
Re: Lubricators cont'd - long
Harry, The throttle line inlet is in the steam dome, thus it is not physically in the boiler water. As the boiler cools, would this not create a suction, excuse me, a vacuum, in the throttle line and thus suck oil out of the lubricator if there was oil/water in it for normal operation? I suppose this would only happen if the filler cap was slightly cracked so as to allow atmospheric pressure to fill in behind the oil removed, or it would be sucking air thru the cylinders if one were in the exhaust mode. I'm trying to reeducate myself with these questions to see if my training in live steam training is fact or fiction.. Keep your steam up! Walt
Re: re:steam oil
Walt, Assuming we're only talking alcohol fired locos here: (1) Yes, when the loco cools down after a run, there will be a vacuum in the boiler as the remaining steam condenses. (Johnson bar position will make no difference because the boiler vacuum will suck the slide valves off the port faces). (2) So as soon as it stops, open the blower valve. This will let outside air in and kill the vacuum. (3) If the loco stops on the track, never push it backwards if it is in forwards gear. This will pump oil back into the boiler for sure. It is OK to push it forwards. Peter Trounce. -- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: re:steam oil > Date: Thursday, February 08, 2001 12:06 AM > > Yikes, I did not think my synaptic dysfunction would result in all these > electrons getting so excited! Aside from the posts on list, I've had an > unusual amount of off-list postings from people using "alternative" steam > oils. Seems to me like those of us using the blackstrap molasses steam oil > may be in the minority! > I've spent most of this evening putting a new oil reservoir and pipe in > the Mike. This was provided gratis by Jerry Hyde. I'm very pleased with the > responses I've had from my dealings with Jerry. He has always been very > cooperative and helpful and his promptness is something many of us never > received in the "old days." If all goes as planned (and it rarely does) I'll > report to you over the weekend if the new system works any better than the > original. The reason all this oil stuff came about was because I realized my > Mike was functioning very well with little or no recognizable consumption of > steam oil. > It certainly has been enlightening, but I doubt if many minds have been > changed. Now, is it a fact that if you stop your engine with the Johnson bar > in neutral, and the steam valve cracked open just a little bit, you will suck > that gunky old oil up into the boiler as it cools down? Should you crack open > the safety valve, Goodall fitting or some other plug as the boiler cools > down? Your opinions and/or facts please. > Keep your steam up and your cylinders well oiled! > Walt & Mr. Lunkenheimer
Re: Oil in the boiler
Salty: The vacuum will pull air from the source of least resistance, so yes, if the Goodall valve offers the least resistance it will pull from there. And I'm sure that's why some of my engines pull their air from the water supply line from the tender. Jim
Re: Oil in the boiler
In a message dated 01-02-08 09:46:50 EST, you write: << Now you can say 'but the boiler space is filled with steam?' When the vessel cools the steam condenses to water, and having no access to additional gas (outside air) to fill the volume the steam once filled, thus creates a vacuum. >> It seems to (conjecture on my part) if one has a goodall valve installed in the boiler that as the boiler cooled it would draw air through the goodall valve and more or less equalize the pressure. This in turn would prevent oil from being drawn into the boiler. If you can push water through that valve it surely should draw air. Salty CC&BW
Lubricators cont'd - long
At 12:00 AM 2/8/01 -0800, you wrote: >Now, is it a fact that if you stop your engine with the Johnson bar >in neutral, and the steam valve cracked open just a little bit, you will suck >that gunky old oil up into the boiler as it cools down? >Walt Walt, I don't know about this scenario specifically, but it is a fact that a volume of air in a closed vessel when cooled will create a vacuum. Now you can say 'but the boiler space is filled with steam?' When the vessel cools the steam condenses to water, and having no access to additional gas (outside air) to fill the volume the steam once filled, thus creates a vacuum. The specific condition I had in mind was where a valveless lubricator has ended up between the throttle (or a valve) and the boiler. [Warning - the following paragraph contains non-railway theoretical fluid dynamics content and may be harmful to your health. Please feel free to skip to Paragraph 3.] Playing my own Devil's advocate, taking the above conditions to their next most stupifiying level, in theory, if by being in front of the throttle the lubr (and its contents) are indeed made a part of the closed chamber of the boiler then the lubr and its contents should behave in the same way as the boiler contents. That is, that when the vacuum is created and the search begins for an additional volume of gas or fluid to fill the void, in theory it looks to all areas of the closed chamber equally. The question then would be, under these conditions why would it not be just as likely that boiler water be sucked into the lubricator as the other way round? In order for fluids to move in a closed system (the lubr contents be sucked into the boiler, or vice versa) there would have to be an inbalance in the system, brought on by an access to 'atmosphere' behind the fluid to push it. A leaky throttle valve, no matter how minute, or a leaky filler cap might provide that on the lubr side. But it's just as likely that a boiler fitting (safety, clack, etc) will allow the vacuum to be relieved so the question is still unanswered. [End of theoretical mumbo-jumbo.] (Whew! 7-1/2" ga isn't this hard!) I had not ever thought of oil contamination from having the lubr in the steam line ahead of the throttle until it was proposed to me by a couple of people who were building locos. When my opion was asked it was my thought that such an arrangement set up the possibility, not the certainty, of oil contamination. But all that aside, if the situation should exist, probably the simplest remedy to prevent oil being drawn back into the boiler would be to remove the lubricator cap for a little while after pressure had been let down but before cooling had begun. Cheers, Harry
Re: Portland's Forest Center Shay
Unfortunately there has been no work done on Portland's Forestry Center Shay . I was up there about a year ago to take some pictures and it is rusting away.. I believe it would take a massive effort to restore it to operating condition. Salty CC&BW
Re: re:steam oil
Walt: Fact: I routinely leave my throttle valve opened on my Mike to prevent a real "hard" seating to the valve seat as the engine cools. My SR&RL #24 has the oil reservoir right next to the throttle and it's never pulled oil back, nor have any of my other engines experienced this with the throttle left open. Opinion: With the oil pipe off the bottom of the oil tank it's not like the open end is submerged in oil. In fact, it's at the top of the oil so it won't draw much if any into the line and certainly not enough to get back to the boiler. Perhaps if the oil reservoir was filled tippy-top just before shutting the engines down the outlet to the oil lines would be submerged and would draw oil back. Jim
