Re: OT: b&o museum latest pictures

[Jim Stapleton]

Gang

I think that this discussion is the sort of idle speculation the media
engages in when something "spectacular" happens.  NOW FOR MY SPECULATION...
Since the roof came down in the dark, no one actually saw it collapse.
Until an appropriate analysis is done on the remains of the IRON structural
members, and all the pin connections and truss rods, we will not know for
sure.  Remember, this building was constructed ca. 1884.  The snowfall in
Baltimore was the largest since they started keeping records, and depending
on how the wind was blowing that night, the amount on one side of the roof
versus the other could have been significant.  I am not a structural
engineer by profession, so I cannot say how this would effect a roof that
is uniform in its circular layout.  Typically however, unless designed to
absorb unusual stresses due to a failure in one place, the damage spreads
rapidly.  A classic example of that was the failure of the (2.5 acre) roof
of the civic arena in Hartford CT in January 1978 due to snow load.

For those interested in such things I highly recommend the following three
very "readable" books (which are part of my personal library);
1)"To Engineer Is Human: The Role of Failure in Successful Design" by Henry
Petroski , 1992
2)"Why Buildings Stand Up: The Strength of Architecture" by Mario
Salvadori, 1980
3)"Why Buildings Fall Down: How Structures Fail" by Mario Salvadori and
Matthys Levy

Regards

Jim Stapleton
Purcellville VA,  still under snow and expecting MORE Thursday
=
At 09:27 PM 02/24/2003 -0500, you wrote:
>NO! We can get a storm like this at least once every few years. The last
>few winters have been very mild here in S.E. PA. We are about 90 miles
>north of Baltimore,MD. The last big storm of note was in 1996. Definitely
>less than 100 years. Last year at this time, the hardy ones around here
>were steaming at our club track.
>
>Phil
>> >
>> > It would seem a crime that the roundhouse wasn't designed to withstand
>> > anticipatable snow loads without risking irreplaceable artifacts
>> > (trains).  But maybe these snow loads were outside the 100 year limits.
>> >  Were they ?
>> >
>> > royce in SB
>> >
>
> 
>  

Re: Geoff wants a fire

[steve speck]

AFTER ALL THAT WORK,  you may have to move?Steve in Houston.



At 06:36 PM 2/24/03 -0800, you wrote:
If we move, which is highly likely, and the new owners do not want to buy
the layout, I think a trestle fire would be the right ending.  I will have
to video tape the fire. Now I need ideas. Torch a Bachmann with the caption,
"I'm melting! I'm melting!"? Just burn the trestle after removing rail and
ties. Of course the pine tree would be in danger of also burning...hmmm.
Fire Marshall might have a thought or two on burning the trestle.
Gary - Running trains over Terror Trestle in Eugene, Oregon
http://www.angelfire.com/or/trainguy
http://community.webshots.com/user/raltzenthor
Hey--watch the fire on that trestle--if you run out of water and lose the
draft, the alcohol may drip on the ties of the trestle-- fire  in the
hold-- I mean, fire on the trestle--the fire of the century!!
Geoff.

Geoff wants a fire

[Gary]

If we move, which is highly likely, and the new owners do not want to buy
the layout, I think a trestle fire would be the right ending.  I will have
to video tape the fire. Now I need ideas. Torch a Bachmann with the caption,
"I'm melting! I'm melting!"? Just burn the trestle after removing rail and
ties. Of course the pine tree would be in danger of also burning...hmmm.
Fire Marshall might have a thought or two on burning the trestle.
Gary - Running trains over Terror Trestle in Eugene, Oregon
http://www.angelfire.com/or/trainguy
http://community.webshots.com/user/raltzenthor

Hey--watch the fire on that trestle--if you run out of water and lose the
draft, the alcohol may drip on the ties of the trestle-- fire  in the
hold-- I mean, fire on the trestle--the fire of the century!!

Geoff.
 

Re: OT: b&o museum latest pictures

[Phil Paskos]

NO! We can get a storm like this at least once every few years. The last
few winters have been very mild here in S.E. PA. We are about 90 miles
north of Baltimore,MD. The last big storm of note was in 1996. Definitely
less than 100 years. Last year at this time, the hardy ones around here
were steaming at our club track.

Phil
> >
> > It would seem a crime that the roundhouse wasn't designed to withstand
> > anticipatable snow loads without risking irreplaceable artifacts
> > (trains).  But maybe these snow loads were outside the 100 year limits.
> >  Were they ?
> >
> > royce in SB
> >

 

Re: Alisan shows off her petti-coat

[Geoff Spenceley]

Gary of the  Terror Trestle carrying Shay,

Congrats--you have it steaming well.

 An alky loco is fun--agreed?  Like  losing the fire , catching fire to the
track, catching fire to yer clothes, getting drunk on ethanol, ruining yer
sinuses with the  sniffing! I've done it all! Makes coal firing a piece of
cake!--now that is from experience-- but-- if only I could ever learn!! I
caught my hair on fire once with flying  coal embers--truly!

Hey--watch the fire on that trestle--if you run out of water and lose the
draft, the alcohol may drip on the ties of the trestle-- fire  in the
hold--  I mean, fire on the trestle--the fire of the century!!

Geoff.



>I had a blast this morning running Alisan shay for an hour without problems
>with pressure drop.  Well, pressure did drop when I was taking photographs
>and allowed the water to drop low enough that the sight glass had just a bit
>of water at the bottom. Of course I pumped in a bit of water and pressure
>dropped to 1 bar for a minute.
>
>I have two asbestos wicks behind the stainless mesh wick in the forward
>burner. I did loose the fire once when trying to raise steam, but it relit
>without a problem.
>
>Thanks again for all the help and great information. There is still more to
>learn, but at least the shay is working reliably and keeps steam up. By the
>way, despite my grades, Alisan chugged around the loop at a fairly sedate
>stroll.
>
>Geoff, your remark about heat warping the blower tube rings true. The fire
>heats the the pipe running along the inside of the fire box to a glowing red
>state.
>
>
>
>Gary - Steaming Alisan, in her petticoat and pulling nine disconnect trucks,
>over Terror Trestle in Eugene, Oregon
>I posted a few Alisan steaming photos from this morning in the Aster Alisan
>Shay album at the url below.
>http://community.webshots.com/user/raltzenthor



 

Re: OT: b&o museum latest pictures

[JR May]

Royce,
I can speak for New Jersey and tell you this was a highly unusual storm.
Not only was the snow deep, it was a heavy wet snow and was driven by VERY
strong winds.  In my town we lost the entire roof of the local bowling
alley, my old high school lost part of its roof, and in the local retirement
villages 100+ sun rooms were destroyed.  All this occurred within a 10 miles
radius of my house.  In north Jersey there were several other roof collapses
including one at a Wal-Mart.  At least 2 people were killed at yet another
collapse up north.

This was a wild storm which combined weight, wind, and depth into a deadly
combination.  At the Museum I am part of we jacked up the heater to ensure
that the snow started to melt and run off our big shop roof as soon as we
knew we might have a problem with snow load.  I am sure that it would have
had sections (the sky lights in particular) come down if we had not done
that.

No way to anticipate something like this.

J.R.
www.njmt.org

- Original Message -
From: Royce Woodbury <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, February 24, 2003 4:28 PM
Subject: Re: OT: b&o museum latest pictures


> It would seem a crime that the roundhouse wasn't designed to withstand
> anticipatable snow loads without risking irreplaceable artifacts
> (trains).  But maybe these snow loads were outside the 100 year limits.
>  Were they ?
>
> royce in SB
>
> Dave Cole wrote:
>
> > folks:
> >
> > the b&o museum has released a set of pictures from inside the
> > roundhouse, that give you a graphic idea of the extent of the damage
> > that the crash of the snow-laden roof caused.
> >
> > http://www.borail.org/roundhouse_restoration/
> >
> > \dmc
> >
>
>
>
>
 

RE: OT: b&o museum latest pictures

[Ciambrone, Steve @ OS]

The roundhouse itself is an original artifact of the B & O railroad.  It was
built prior to that information being available.

This is quite a unique structure with the turntable in the middle of the
roundhouse under the cover of the roof.  Their are or were  probably others
but it is the only one that I know of.
Steve

> -Original Message-
> From: Royce Woodbury [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Monday, February 24, 2003 1:29 PM
> To:   Multiple recipients of sslivesteam
> Subject:  Re: OT: b&o museum latest pictures
> 
> It would seem a crime that the roundhouse wasn't designed to withstand 
> anticipatable snow loads without risking irreplaceable artifacts 
> (trains).  But maybe these snow loads were outside the 100 year limits. 
>  Were they ?
> 
> royce in SB
> 
> Dave Cole wrote:
> 
> > folks:
> >
> > the b&o museum has released a set of pictures from inside the 
> > roundhouse, that give you a graphic idea of the extent of the damage 
> > that the crash of the snow-laden roof caused.
> >
> > http://www.borail.org/roundhouse_restoration/
> >
> > \dmc
> >
> 
>   

Re: OT: b&o museum latest pictures

[Royce Woodbury]

It would seem a crime that the roundhouse wasn't designed to withstand 
anticipatable snow loads without risking irreplaceable artifacts 
(trains).  But maybe these snow loads were outside the 100 year limits. 
Were they ?

royce in SB

Dave Cole wrote:

folks:

the b&o museum has released a set of pictures from inside the 
roundhouse, that give you a graphic idea of the extent of the damage 
that the crash of the snow-laden roof caused.

http://www.borail.org/roundhouse_restoration/

\dmc

Alisan shows off her petti-coat

[Gary]

I had a blast this morning running Alisan shay for an hour without problems
with pressure drop.  Well, pressure did drop when I was taking photographs
and allowed the water to drop low enough that the sight glass had just a bit
of water at the bottom. Of course I pumped in a bit of water and pressure
dropped to 1 bar for a minute.

I have two asbestos wicks behind the stainless mesh wick in the forward
burner. I did loose the fire once when trying to raise steam, but it relit
without a problem.

Thanks again for all the help and great information. There is still more to
learn, but at least the shay is working reliably and keeps steam up. By the
way, despite my grades, Alisan chugged around the loop at a fairly sedate
stroll.

Geoff, your remark about heat warping the blower tube rings true. The fire
heats the the pipe running along the inside of the fire box to a glowing red
state.



Gary - Steaming Alisan, in her petticoat and pulling nine disconnect trucks,
over Terror Trestle in Eugene, Oregon
I posted a few Alisan steaming photos from this morning in the Aster Alisan
Shay album at the url below.
http://community.webshots.com/user/raltzenthor

Gary,

Good, you have a petti-coat!!

re the blower tube changing it's angle--the heat will often anneal the
blower tube and it will flop. This has been a particular problem with O.S
3/4" scale locos so I "lash" them to the nozzle as you have done.

I can't understand why the blower works the way it does! I like Clark's
idea of having one asbestos wick--my Stirling Single has a powerful exhaust
blast and would pull the flame right off the mesh wicks--presto-- no fire!
So I installed one asbestos--or ceramic stranded wicks on the front burner-
I also made it a little higher-no problem now. (I should point out that on
the Stirling, unlike your Shay. the draw is from the back of the boiler as
it is a C type with internal  tubes). I believe asbestos doesn't go out so
easily, and it is furthest from the "draw" anyway on the Stirling,
therefore keeping the other wicks alight--like a "pilot light"!!

This may fix the last problem you appear to be facing;--that is; the blower
putting out the fire!

Good luck,

Geoff.



Geoff,
>Your comments of course are right on. The only way I could observe the
>exhaust and blower in action so to speak would be to caulk a glass front on
>the smokebox. Otherwise removing the front to look would kill the draft
>completely.
>
>Generally, if I run the blower I open it about 1/16-1/8 of a turn. Opening
>it to 1/4-1/2 turn does blow out the fire now, but it used to meerely make
>the fire ragged and more yellow. And now opening it 1/8 + or - a bit has
>almost no effect on the fire.
>
>Regarding the petti-coat . . . how do I say, "I was blind?". I wish I could
>claim "drunk", "sleep walking", or stoned . . . but the truth was plain as
>day. A very nice exhaust flared exhaust hood does hang below the smoke
>stack. Either someone put it there while I slept or I was too high on
>ethanol fumes when I last opened it up to look. In any case, the nozzles
are
>realigned again. I think I will twist a loop of copper wire around the two
>nozzles to help them keep each other aimed up the petti-coat.  I sure would
>like to know how I clearly didn't see what all of you told me was there. I
>may need new glasses soon.
>
>I think I will skip the "heavy physics" since I seem to have trouble seeing
>what is physically present accurately. . .
>
>Thanks for helping me to "see" what was always there!
>
>




 

OT: b&o museum latest pictures

[Dave Cole]

folks:

the b&o museum has released a set of pictures from inside the 
roundhouse, that give you a graphic idea of the extent of the damage 
that the crash of the snow-laden roof caused.

http://www.borail.org/roundhouse_restoration/

\dmc

--
^^^
Dave Cole
Gen'l Sup't:  Grand Teton & Everglades Steam Excursion Co.
  Pacifica, Calif. USA  
List Mom: sslivesteam, the list of small-scale live steamers
  
ATTEND THE NATIONAL SUMMER STEAMUP IN SACRAMENTO, JULY 17-20, 2003
For more information, visit the web site at 
^^^ 

Re: Alisan shows off her petti-coat

[Geoff Spenceley]

Gary,

Good, you have a petti-coat!!

re the blower tube changing it's angle--the heat will often anneal the
blower tube and it will flop. This has been a particular problem with O.S
3/4" scale locos so I "lash" them to the nozzle as you have done.

I can't understand why the blower works the way it does! I like Clark's
idea of having one asbestos wick--my Stirling Single has a powerful exhaust
blast and would pull the flame right off the mesh wicks--presto-- no fire!
So I installed one asbestos--or ceramic stranded wicks on the front burner-
I also made it a little higher-no problem now. (I should point out that on
the Stirling, unlike your Shay. the draw is from the back of the boiler as
it is a C type with internal  tubes). I believe asbestos doesn't go out so
easily, and it is furthest from the "draw" anyway on the Stirling,
therefore keeping the other wicks alight--like a "pilot light"!!

This may fix the last problem you appear to be facing;--that is; the blower
putting out the fire!

Good luck,

Geoff.



Geoff,
>Your comments of course are right on. The only way I could observe the
>exhaust and blower in action so to speak would be to caulk a glass front on
>the smokebox. Otherwise removing the front to look would kill the draft
>completely.
>
>Generally, if I run the blower I open it about 1/16-1/8 of a turn. Opening
>it to 1/4-1/2 turn does blow out the fire now, but it used to meerely make
>the fire ragged and more yellow. And now opening it 1/8 + or - a bit has
>almost no effect on the fire.
>
>Regarding the petti-coat . . . how do I say, "I was blind?". I wish I could
>claim "drunk", "sleep walking", or stoned . . . but the truth was plain as
>day. A very nice exhaust flared exhaust hood does hang below the smoke
>stack. Either someone put it there while I slept or I was too high on
>ethanol fumes when I last opened it up to look. In any case, the nozzles are
>realigned again. I think I will twist a loop of copper wire around the two
>nozzles to help them keep each other aimed up the petti-coat.  I sure would
>like to know how I clearly didn't see what all of you told me was there. I
>may need new glasses soon.
>
>I think I will skip the "heavy physics" since I seem to have trouble seeing
>what is physically present accurately. . .
>
>Thanks for helping me to "see" what was always there!
>
>



 

Re: sslivesteam-Digest - Number 1096

[Scott McDonald]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

>The more the merrier - thanks for volunteering a flatter roadbed!  Hope the WVMGRS 
>'sparkies' don't mind all our oil and water...  


It will be 'dedicated' line.  Only for live steam or battery ops that don't care about 
the grunge factor. 

What this means in the way of a major exhibit of this caliber is that I have to ensure 
we have an adequate supply of live steamers scheduled through out the day to keep the 
line active and the general public enthralled, captivated and entertained. So based on 
the final responses after I get the info packages made up, if we have a time frame 
that is empty, then the WVMGRS attendants (our intrepid force of retirees who can 
spend all day at the museum on the week days) will drop a battery loco on the track to 
keep 'something going'.

I should probably add that this will be a wonderful chance to educate the public, so a 
part of my info will discuss the fact that all of our live steam guests should expect 
to be able to turn their live steaming activity into a 'demonstration' so that any one 
standing around gets the full benefit of an educational experience.  This is the prime 
purpose of a museum in any of their activities.

Keep your steam up! (despite the snow)

Scott


-- 
--
Prince William Community Band - 
http://.pwcweb.com/pwcb/

Clack Valves & Cornets Steam Band - http://www.erols.com/diesel/clack/


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Re: sslivesteam-Digest - Number 1096

[Pthornto]

In a message dated 2/24/2003 3:02:06 AM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
writes:

> Recently there was a posting asking about live steam at the Fair of the
> Iron Horse this summer at the B&O Museum in Baltimore, MD.   I am pleased 
> to announce that the Washington, Virginia, & Maryland Garden Railway 
> Society will be participating  in the fa

Scott,

The more the merrier - thanks for volunteering a flatter roadbed!  Hope the WVMGRS 
'sparkies' don't mind all our oil and water...  

Here's a copy of the message I posted on SitG last week:

: is any one steaming at this event? june 28 -july 3rd http://foih.borail.org/

I'm a volunteer (docent), and until this weeks tragedy I would have said the 
following...

B&O just built a 'garden railroad' with the typical compromises of a commercial 
operation out in the back yard. The track is a figure-8 with a nasty hill, so steaming 
without r/c is going to be tricky. (I couldn't persuade them to let me have some input 
to the design process, unfortunately.) They were sponsored by a local car dealer and 
plan to add 2 more loops.

I have informal permission to organise a 'steam-up' one weekend in the spring, and 
some of the local steamers were interested.

"Fair of the Iron Horse" is/was going to be a big-time event (10 days over July 4th,) 
with a LOT of visiting full-size steam engines. (Possible SP-4449 and UP's Challenger, 
among others? Details were scheduled to be announced Feb 27.) I doubt they would want 
or be able to handle anything like a steam-up at the same time.

Better to schedule a meet at one of the local tracks designed for steaming - there are 
at least 2 within reach - during that period, so that visitors can come and meet us 
locals?

However, given the roof collapse, all bets are off.

Pete