BRONZE - BRASS
At 03:33 PM 6/22/04 -0400, you wrote: >Is there an easy way to tell bronze from brass? - Casey Casey, No, except with a little familiarity with metal color, oxide color, and turning characteristics you can be reasonably certain which you have. Many (but not all) brasses have a yellow caste and bronzes are more reddish or brownwish, but this isn't absolute. "Red brass" for instance has a dark reddish caste like some bronzes but is classified as a pouring brass. Many cast plumbing valve bodies are red brass but are assumed to be bronze. I have some phosphor bronze (C510) which has a distinctly yellow caste but it's documented material so I know what it is. If I didn't know its alloy and origin I would have called it a brass at first glance, but then when I turned it I'd see that it was not a brass. Brass comes off in tiny chips while bronze comes off in much larger chips and occasionally a curl. I have some other phosphor bronze (also C510) from a different source and it's almost a copper-red. If I didn't know where it came from and what it was I would assume it was pure copper (C110) but it machines nothing like copper or brass which would tell me that is it NOT one of those. Many continous-cast bearing bronzes (SAE 660), although they can be on the yellowish side, usually have a darkish flow pattern visible on the skin from the casting process which makes them relatively easy to idenify as bronze but there are a number of alloys in the continuous-cast group. I've seen chemical tests kits which can supposedly tell you the difference between alloys of the same family. The prices for a "sample" kit begin at around $450.00! I don't know of a common household chemical process for determining the difference. Regards, Harry
Re: sslivesteam2-Digest - Boiler water
We currently use a water softener that uses Potasium Cloride as the medium cleanser. Same idea as the salt bath, less material needed (100# every year... maybe?) The salt in your softener system is used to clean the filter medium. The medium 'catches' and holds the excess calcium ions in your water. Later (usually like 2AM-ish) the bed is flushed with saltwater which frees the calcium ions by exchanging sodium ions for them. The system is them backflushed with clean water and the sodium ions let go of the medium leaving it ready for the next day's load of calcium and other goodies. Don't ask me how the salt doesn't stick to the medium, I don't know. ; ] On the DI water used in semiconductor processing... It's only ever used once before it gets reprocessed. In fact, if the line it's in isn't flowing properly (that is to say, continuously) then the water in that line is no longer considered to be DI water and has to be fully flushed before it can be used again. Some of our Implanters use DI for coolant as the high resistivity allows the cooling water to be self-insulating (osme of these machines run up to and above 80KV DC on a regular basis. Think of a huge Pentode vacuum tube... or cathode-ray-tube with all the plates, focusing magnets, and control grids of a particle accelerator and you wouldn't be far off.) I'm not sure how they keep the copper lines from corroding... but I've never heard of us having to do any cooling line maintanence on any of the magnets. I'ma gonna have ta ask now. I work on diffusion equipment, also known as the Easy-bake ovens of the Fab. ; ] Certainly not for boilers though. ; ] The stuff in the jugs at the grocery store likely aren't as bad, due to the length of time they sit, but I still wouldn't trust it in my loco. Trot, the mostly-informed, fox... | /\_/\ TrotFox \ Always remember, | ( o o ) AKA Landon Solomon\ "There is a | >\_/< [EMAIL PROTECTED] \ third alternative." From: "Mike Chaney" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:- > So I switched to "soft water" that had gone through a single bed > softener to replace the calcium with sodium When I was a kid we lived in a very hard water area, so my father bought a water softener. This had to be filled regularly with salt. Now I know why. Mike _ FREE pop-up blocking with the new MSN Toolbar get it now! http://toolbar.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200415ave/direct/01/
BRONZE - BRASS (WAS Re: sslivesteam2-Digest - Boiler water)
Friends, Is there an easy way to tell bronze from brass? I have several bars of bronze that I bought to use for boiler bushings and fittings and I also have some bars of brass left over from "sparkie" projects. I usually have a hard time telling one from the other, except that I store them separately. I also am collecting scrap plumbing valves and fittings to melt down for some casting projects and, here again, I don't know for sure whether I have brass or bronze. Some I believe to be bronze because the boxes they came in said so, but they look the same as some valves that a plumber friend gave me as scrap brass. Casey Sterbenz From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: sslivesteam2-Digest - Boiler water Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2004 12:28:32 EDT Now boiler fittings. If you braze or solder brass bushings into a copper boiler the brass can have the zinc leached out leaving a spongy mass of tin. Therefore be sure to use bronze with tin content rather than plain zinc, copper brass. Again there are all sorts of tins and bronzes as well. Among the worse alloys for boiler work are the lower melting forms of Zamak, although there are high tin content Zamaks that are fine for boiler work. I have seen plenty of boilers with bronze bushings but with brass check valves etc screwed into the bushings that seem to last for many years. But the material that is bonded to the copper shell by a brazing alloy should be bronze not brass.
Re: Zamak - was Boiler water
I know that some if not all Zamak alloys go brittle with age. They are NOT suitable for boiler work. For modelling I believe that they are mainly used for die-casting. Best Sam E Harry Wade wrote: > > At 12:28 PM 6/22/04 EDT, you wrote: > >there are high tin content Zamaks that are fine for boiler work. - catboat > > I have never, ever, seen or heard anyone use or even mention zinc-aluminum > alloys, regardless of tin content, in connection with model boiler > construction. My guess as to the reason for that would be because it's a > material that is so self-evidently inappropriate for boilers that it > doesn't warrant mentioning, and lacking evidence to the contrary I say they > are NOT fine. >Aside from this being generally an inexperienced group, which might > take unqualified and unsubstantiated information like this as gospel, the > Doit-cheap&quick-at-any-cost people will latch on to this and the next > thing you know I'll hear that it's now OK to make boilers from melted down > auto intake manifolds. > > Regards, > Harry >
RE: Zamak - was Boiler water
I have to agree with Harry. I don't have any fancy degrees or anything, but I have done some study into the metallurgy of different alloys, and if I remember correctly Zamak the major component of Zamak is Zinc, and we already discussed the Zinc leaching from Brass. I could see using the Zamak to replace the white metal castings for anywhere but the firebox, since Zamak melts at around 800 F! Just my two cents Terry -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, June 22, 2004 2:18 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Zamak - was Boiler water At 12:28 PM 6/22/04 EDT, you wrote: >there are high tin content Zamaks that are fine for boiler work. - catboat I have never, ever, seen or heard anyone use or even mention zinc-aluminum alloys, regardless of tin content, in connection with model boiler construction. My guess as to the reason for that would be because it's a material that is so self-evidently inappropriate for boilers that it doesn't warrant mentioning, and lacking evidence to the contrary I say they are NOT fine. Aside from this being generally an inexperienced group, which might take unqualified and unsubstantiated information like this as gospel, the Doit-cheap&quick-at-any-cost people will latch on to this and the next thing you know I'll hear that it's now OK to make boilers from melted down auto intake manifolds. Regards, Harry "This e-mail is intended for the sole use of the intended recipient and may contain privileged, sensitive, or protected health information. If you are not the intended recipient, be advised that any unauthorized use, disclosure, copying, distribution, or action taken in reliance on the contents of this communication is prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender via telephone or return e-mail and immediately delete this e-mail."
Re: sslivesteam2-Digest - Boiler water
This is getting complicated--I have used distilled water in my Aster KGV for 12 years and the Aster Schools for 25 years and no problems. I have never had to clean the sight glass on the KGV. Sometimes I leave the water in the boiler, sometimes I don't-- depends on how many Tanqerays I have absorbed! We have very soft water here which I suppose I should use, as my local friend and scratch builder has used the tap water for at least 17 years with no problems- both 45mm and 3-1/2" gauge and he always leaves the water in the boiler. So? Geoff. >Water, copper, brass and other stuff: The word water does not describe a >unique substance by a long ways. The water that I used to consider "good" >for >our steam generators that pumped well over a million lbs of water an hour >through them might be useless for a computer chip maker or a laboratory >doing >analysis. Pure water never stays pure very long, as soon as it comes in >contact >with any metals it picks up ions from the metal. Where lab quality water is >involved piping and containers are either an inert plastic or glass. (But >boiler > water at high temperatures will leach silicon from glass even.) >For our locomotives I would skip distilled or reverse osmosis water and stay >with soft household water. >Now boiler fittings. If you braze or solder brass bushings into a copper >boiler the brass can have the zinc leached out leaving a spongy mass of tin. >Therefore be sure to use bronze with tin content rather than plain zinc, >copper >brass. Again there are all sorts of tins and bronzes as well. Among the >worse >alloys for boiler work are the lower melting forms of Zamak, although there >are high tin content Zamaks that are fine for boiler work. >I have seen plenty of boilers with bronze bushings but with brass check >valves etc screwed into the bushings that seem to last for many years. But >the >material that is bonded to the copper shell by a brazing alloy should be >bronze >not brass. >I was using distiled or water from our R.O. unit in my boilers till I found >that the gauge glasses were clouding up and not cleanable with my handy pipe >cleaner. The purer (Is that a word?) RO water at heat was apparently etching >into the glass. So swiched to "soft water" that had gone through a single >bed >softener to replace the calcium with sodium which I think will eliminate >scale build up but not attack other metals as the more pure water does. > >
Zamak - was Boiler water
At 12:28 PM 6/22/04 EDT, you wrote: >there are high tin content Zamaks that are fine for boiler work. - catboat I have never, ever, seen or heard anyone use or even mention zinc-aluminum alloys, regardless of tin content, in connection with model boiler construction. My guess as to the reason for that would be because it's a material that is so self-evidently inappropriate for boilers that it doesn't warrant mentioning, and lacking evidence to the contrary I say they are NOT fine. Aside from this being generally an inexperienced group, which might take unqualified and unsubstantiated information like this as gospel, the Doit-cheap&quick-at-any-cost people will latch on to this and the next thing you know I'll hear that it's now OK to make boilers from melted down auto intake manifolds. Regards, Harry
Re: sslivesteam2-Digest - Boiler water
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:- > So I switched to "soft water" that had gone through a single bed > softener to replace the calcium with sodium When I was a kid we lived in a very hard water area, so my father bought a water softener. This had to be filled regularly with salt. Now I know why. Mike
Re: sslivesteam2-Digest - Boiler water
Water, copper, brass and other stuff: The word water does not describe a unique substance by a long ways. The water that I used to consider "good" for our steam generators that pumped well over a million lbs of water an hour through them might be useless for a computer chip maker or a laboratory doing analysis. Pure water never stays pure very long, as soon as it comes in contact with any metals it picks up ions from the metal. Where lab quality water is involved piping and containers are either an inert plastic or glass. (But boiler water at high temperatures will leach silicon from glass even.) For our locomotives I would skip distilled or reverse osmosis water and stay with soft household water. Now boiler fittings. If you braze or solder brass bushings into a copper boiler the brass can have the zinc leached out leaving a spongy mass of tin. Therefore be sure to use bronze with tin content rather than plain zinc, copper brass. Again there are all sorts of tins and bronzes as well. Among the worse alloys for boiler work are the lower melting forms of Zamak, although there are high tin content Zamaks that are fine for boiler work. I have seen plenty of boilers with bronze bushings but with brass check valves etc screwed into the bushings that seem to last for many years. But the material that is bonded to the copper shell by a brazing alloy should be bronze not brass. I was using distiled or water from our R.O. unit in my boilers till I found that the gauge glasses were clouding up and not cleanable with my handy pipe cleaner. The purer (Is that a word?) RO water at heat was apparently etching into the glass. So swiched to "soft water" that had gone through a single bed softener to replace the calcium with sodium which I think will eliminate scale build up but not attack other metals as the more pure water does.
