Re: Re[2]: twin fire tube boilers

[M Paterson]

Bert

I am not an owner of an Accucraft engine with dual
burners. Own a Ruby and a Fort Wilderness. Accucraft's
main distribution center is located within a few miles
of my work place plus it is a local telephone call. If
you can provide more specific information off line to
me at [EMAIL PROTECTED] I will try to contact Cliff at
Accucraft and see what he has to say. They are very
helpful people.

Mike Paterson

--- Bert & Edmunda <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Gary
> 
> Thank you for the input there is no leakage. It
> seems to be a problem
> that has been experienced by more than a couple of
> people I know here
> in mid Europe. I was hoping as the main market for
> U.S. railroad models
> is obvious the USA to save carrying out all the
> possibilities
> in that someone had solved the "problem" and we
> could take the short
> cut. A lot of people here speak English, but many
> shy from the hard
> work of writing in a foreign language. I have been
> able to offer quite
> a lot of help thanks to this group which is for my
> money the best thing
> since tea bags. Now and again people ring up and say
> "Could you ask
> your group this, or that", and so on. An awful lot
> of the advice here
> gets translated and passed on sort of behind your
> backs.   May be some
> day it will take off in German!!
> 
> Just a quick note on the fence posts I think the
> local conditions are
> the ones to watch. I came from flat England to live
> at just over 1000m
> above sea level. It is a south slope 6 feet of snow
> is not to much but
> the sun burns in it about 20° in winter. It doesn't
> matter how deep
> you plant your posts they just start to move down
> hill, often trees don't
> even make it. There is an awful lot of water running
> off the melting
> snow filtering through our ground. My two penneth is
> ask the guy next
> door.  One thing which is used in both landscapes
> was set them in
> sand!   I am pleased I dont have to choose one
> of the many
> suggestions.
> 
> Bert
> -
> Bert &  Edmunda
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>  
> 


__
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Re[2]: twin fire tube boilers

[Bert & Edmunda]

Gary

Thank you for the input there is no leakage. It seems to be a problem
that has been experienced by more than a couple of people I know here
in mid Europe. I was hoping as the main market for U.S. railroad models
is obvious the USA to save carrying out all the possibilities
in that someone had solved the "problem" and we could take the short
cut. A lot of people here speak English, but many shy from the hard
work of writing in a foreign language. I have been able to offer quite
a lot of help thanks to this group which is for my money the best thing
since tea bags. Now and again people ring up and say "Could you ask
your group this, or that", and so on. An awful lot of the advice here
gets translated and passed on sort of behind your backs.   May be some
day it will take off in German!!

Just a quick note on the fence posts I think the local conditions are
the ones to watch. I came from flat England to live at just over 1000m
above sea level. It is a south slope 6 feet of snow is not to much but
the sun burns in it about 20° in winter. It doesn't matter how deep
you plant your posts they just start to move down hill, often trees don't
even make it. There is an awful lot of water running off the melting
snow filtering through our ground. My two penneth is ask the guy next
door.  One thing which is used in both landscapes was set them in
sand!   I am pleased I dont have to choose one of the many
suggestions.

Bert
-
Bert &  Edmunda
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 

Re: depth of post footings and frost, was Re: sslivesteam-Digest - Number 1318

[Walt Swartz]

One of the few things I have retained from my graduate work obtaining a 
degree in soil physics, was the "fence post jacking" phenomenon.
Every spring on the farm we had to reset some posts, they would be as much 
as four or six inches "above" their original height. This occurs when you 
get a normal deep freeze in the winter but a rapid early thaw. The surface 
few inches of soil thaw out and tend to settle or compress (water expands 
when it freezes, thus soil mass often expands upward when frozen, commonly 
called frost heave) . As the paddled surface mass refreezes, it expands in 
the direction of least resistance, thus putting upward forces on the post, 
kind of the same action you get with an old fashioned ratchet jack.
By putting a somewhat larger "structure" between the post and the soil, you 
essentially "float" the track as the soil heaves up and then settles back 
down, unless you get significant lateral shift caused by spring surface 
flood, etc.
Keep your steam up!
Mr. Lunkenheimer's associate, Walt
PS I'm amazed someone did not pick up on the fact that soil freeze has never 
been recorded in Collier County, Florida. Monroe county (Key West) is the 
only county further south than Collier. Many have been hoping that
a severe freeze there would occur.
- Original Message - 
From: "Harry Wade" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Multiple recipients of sslivesteam" 
Sent: Wednesday, January 05, 2005 5:45 PM
Subject: Re: depth of post footings and frost, was Re: sslivesteam-Digest - 
Number 1318


At 01:42 PM 1/5/05 -0600, you wrote:
The depth of placement will not have any large impact on individual side
thrust
If by this you mean a post's ability to resist movement from side
thrust or impact, this is untrue.  Depth does affect side thrust 
resistance.
By the same token concrete setting also increases a posts by
increasing the area of resistance to soil pressure but it doesn't render a
post "solid."  It just takes a bit more force to move the post.  A thin
concrete "collar" is almost useless as far as increasing resistance to 
side
thrust and isn't worth the trouble to lift the bags of Sakrete.  Aside 
from
a full poured concrete setting, the most performance-effective way to
deep-set posts for the average person and installation is to hard-tamp
earth and small rock around the post in 3" to 5" "lifts" working your way 
up.

and thrust from the freeze / thaw cycle will have mostly equal impact on
all posts.
   Not necessarily.  Freeze and thaw will vary with soil type, moisture
content, depth of overburden, sun exposure or shading and other local
conditions.  Every different setting condition will behave differently.
Regards,
Harry

Re: depth of post footings and frost, was Re: sslivesteam-Digest - Number 1318

[Harry Wade]

At 01:42 PM 1/5/05 -0600, you wrote:
>The depth of placement will not have any large impact on individual side
thrust

 If by this you mean a post's ability to resist movement from side
thrust or impact, this is untrue.  Depth does affect side thrust resistance.
 By the same token concrete setting also increases a posts by
increasing the area of resistance to soil pressure but it doesn't render a
post "solid."  It just takes a bit more force to move the post.  A thin
concrete "collar" is almost useless as far as increasing resistance to side
thrust and isn't worth the trouble to lift the bags of Sakrete.  Aside from
a full poured concrete setting, the most performance-effective way to
deep-set posts for the average person and installation is to hard-tamp
earth and small rock around the post in 3" to 5" "lifts" working your way up.

>and thrust from the freeze / thaw cycle will have mostly equal impact on
all posts.

Not necessarily.  Freeze and thaw will vary with soil type, moisture
content, depth of overburden, sun exposure or shading and other local
conditions.  Every different setting condition will behave differently.

Regards,
Harry
 

Re: Posts and frost line.

[Gary]

This is a great chat list!  So many ideas and so much experience with so
many weather conditions!  Simple elegant solutions.  Ugly utilitarian
solutions.  If we ask someone out there saves us heartache and backbreaking
work.
Iced up over Terror Trestle in Eugene, Oregon ~ Gary
http://www.angelfire.com/or/trainguy
http://community.webshots.com/user/raltzenthor


| Joe,
|   When I built my track I tried both digging holes and earth backfill
| and digging and concrete..thats for the Boids!  Second hand steel pipe
| ,galvanised. 1 1/2 or larger. no holes just drive it in with a tube hammer
| or sledge hammer.3 ft seems fine. top with an adjustable slip bracket.. no
| rot no holes.no movement..recommended.
|
| Gordon Watson.
|
 

Re: twin fire tube boilers

[Gary]

My bet is that the superheater has a leak that is putting out the fire.
Steaming & Sparking over Terror Trestle in Eugene, Oregon ~ Gary
http://www.angelfire.com/or/trainguy
http://community.webshots.com/user/raltzenthor


| At 06:02 PM 1/5/05 +0100, Bert & Edmunda wrote:
| >Has anyone an Accucraft C-21 or a K-27  and if so have you had
| >problems with the left fire going out? This is the tube with the
| >superheater running through it. Theoretical this tube should re-ignite
| >due to the Stainless superheater glowing. It does not.  a number of
| >experiments are in progress eg. regulating the air flow on the right
| >tube, which it seems never goes out! a Stainless steel fine mesh gauze
| >has reduced the problem, etc.  I would be pleased for any thoughts on
| >the problem.
|
| While it mat not be the most practical suggestion, Bert, I'd say the first
| thing to do would be to return it to the dealer for repair/correction of
| the problem.  You paid for a working engine.  The dealer should be fixing
| it as it obviously was sent out without being adjusted properly.
|
| regards,
|
| pf
|
 

Re: Maxwell Hemmons Porter O-ring Replacements

[Peter Foley]

At 06:29 AM 1/5/05 -0800, mike gray wrote:
My Porter has so many miles on her that that she looks
like a steamer with the cylinder cocks  always wide
open. The dilemma is how to remove the connector
pieces from the cylinder shafts to remove and replace
the O-rings. Appears to be a press fit but with the
loco long out of production I don't want to apply too
much force and forever sideline her because of a
broken rod connector.
Has anyone else had to replace the cylinder shaft
O-rings ? If so, how did you go about doing it ?
A round about suggestion (I don't own a Porter), but the Ogwen formerly 
made by Maxwell Hemmons is now being made by John Burrel and being sold 
through PPS Steam Services at:

http://www.pps-steam-models.co.uk/index.htm
or you can e-mail them at  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
They may be willing to put you in touch with John Burre, and if he has one 
of the old Hemmens locos, maybe he has the Porter too.

The other possible source is Yesteryear Toys in Alexandria bay NY, who also 
advertize the Burrel Ogwen - they may be the North American distributor for 
Burrel.  their website is at:

http://www.yesteryeartoys.com/
and e-mail is   [EMAIL PROTECTED] aor phone 1-800-481-1353.
good luck with it,
pf

Re: posts and frost heave

[Keith Taylor]

- Original Message - 
From: "Harry Wade" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>   MY frostline is 18" so yours will be more, as much as 36".
Hi Harry and Joe!
Here in Maine, the frost line extends six feet down! And, I know of
fellows with posts that go down six feet and they still get tossed up
out of the ground come spring, like they were being thrown by a javelin
thrower! I remember the building codes from when I lived in the
Allentown area stating that they wanted posts "AT LEAST" four foot down,
and were happier with deeper if the homeowner wanted to be safe! What
most of the fellows in New England do, for elevated tracks (even those
for 3/4" scale and 1" scale Live Steam models) is to use a heavy cement
base block on top of the ground, that floats up and down with the
surface each spring. And if you do place a pole in the ground, make sure
to put a large cement block at the bottom of the hole, below the frost
line, so that when the frost grabs the vertical portion of the pole, it
doesn't also grab the big cement block at the base! Most fellows much
prefer the block on the surface, as it can be made heavy enough to give
a stable track, but will not be held onto by the frost and lifted out of
the ground.
Keith

 

Re: depth of post footings and frost, was Re: sslivesteam-Digest - Number 1318

[Rich]

I do not concur with your analysis.  We are discussing a small area post and 
the placing the base of this post below the 
"frost line" will have little benefit to stability.  As the layout does not 
cover a large area it would be reasonable to assume 
that the conditions are homogeneous.  The depth of placement will not have any 
large impact on individual side thrust 
and thrust from the freeze / thaw cycle will have mostly equal impact on all 
posts.  Posts placed on severly sloped ground 
will tend to shift due to the movement of the soil with time and depth will not 
make a lot of difference.

I will not comment on the benefits / disadvantages of placing a post into 
concrete.

As an aside.  I am living out in the country in very hilly ground that has 
terrible bearing ratings.  It liquifies when wet. 
And the soil is almost impenetrable when dry.   I can look down about a quarter 
mile of fence from where I am sitting.  
This fence has been in place for probably 30+ years and is composed of original 
oak posts, replacement metal T posts and 
treated replacement wood posts.  The fence was built by hand in the late 
summer.  I do know who constructed it.  The 
fence is as straight today as it was when first constructed.  The original oak 
posts are about 2 foot into the ground as the 
original intent was to rebuild this fence the next spring.  The barbed wire is 
holding it up.

I would suggest placing the posts deep enough into the ground on a gravel bed 
to provide the lateral support required by 
the layout design and back filling with dirt.  Lateral motion is going to be a 
larger problem than any frost induced vertical 
motion or frost induced differential motion.





On Wed, 05 Jan 2005 14:10:30 -0500, Peter Foley wrote:

->At 10:48 AM 1/5/05 -0600, Rich wrote:
->>OK, now here is my take on this "frost heave" item.  To have any 'heaving" 
->>there has to be either differential expansion or contraction.  This will 
->>not happen across a free floating post that is in the ground almost any 
->>distance at all.
->
->I have to disagree, Rich.  To be sure that a post (a fence post being the 
->one we are all most familiar with, I think) will remain rigid (not wiggle 
->when you push on the top) and remain at the elevation it was installed at, 
->the post and/or post plus footing has to extend past the maximum depth of 
->frost penetration.  All the concrete does is provide an un-compressible 
->collar around the post to stop it moving side to side and better frictional 
->resistance than the post alone.  If you look along a long fence run 
->(particularly one with a continuous top rail), you invariable notice the 
->post that has moved - look at the base and you will see the concrete 
->footing popping up out of the ground.  The amount a post with an inadequate 
->depth footing will move due to frost is a product of how much water the 
->soil around it holds - topsoil is the worst for this because of the high 
->organic content.  Silt is second worst and sand the best.  Clay may be good 
->or bad, depending on the depth of the natural water table and the degree of 
->surface slope - flat areas on clay soil where water ponds and stays after a 
->rain are bad for frost movement, sloped area where the water runs off 
->easily have few problems with frost heave.
->
->The differential expansion reasoning that you quote refers to the movement 
->of two dissimilar materials that will be caused by a change in 
->temperature.  The most common example people would be familiar with is a 
->fracture of a reinforced concrete slab due to differential expansion 
->between the steel reinforcing and the concrete.  This is really due to 
->inadequate cover of concrete over the reinforcing or inadequate slab 
->thickness to resist the forces of differential expansion.  This term 
->doesn't really apply to the issue of frost movement of a post.
->
->The second thing that stops a post from moving from frost action is the 
->friction between the footing and the ground around it.  This is why a 
->concrete footing will perform better in this regard than a post with native 
->or granular backfill around it - the frictional resistance to movement 
->between the concrete and the ground is higher than between the post and the 
->backfill, because the post has a smooth, relatively impervious surface and 
->concrete is rough.
->
->For people who have had good results with what, on the surface, appears to 
->be an inadequate 'design', it is more a matter of good luck with your soil 
->conditions than anything else.  Unless the person you are advising has very 
->similar conditions to you, it is unreasonable to assume that they will have 
->a similar performance, which leads me back to my original suggestion - do 
->it 'right' the first time and you won't have to do it over again.
->
->The idea of a completely floating installation (deck blocks on the ground), 
->is quite workable and will perform acceptably provided the soil cond

Re: twin fire tube boilers

[Peter Foley]

At 06:02 PM 1/5/05 +0100, Bert & Edmunda wrote:
Has anyone an Accucraft C-21 or a K-27  and if so have you had
problems with the left fire going out? This is the tube with the
superheater running through it. Theoretical this tube should re-ignite
due to the Stainless superheater glowing. It does not.  a number of
experiments are in progress eg. regulating the air flow on the right
tube, which it seems never goes out! a Stainless steel fine mesh gauze
has reduced the problem, etc.  I would be pleased for any thoughts on
the problem.
While it mat not be the most practical suggestion, Bert, I'd say the first 
thing to do would be to return it to the dealer for repair/correction of 
the problem.  You paid for a working engine.  The dealer should be fixing 
it as it obviously was sent out without being adjusted properly.

regards,
pf

depth of post footings and frost, was Re: sslivesteam-Digest - Number 1318

[Peter Foley]

At 10:48 AM 1/5/05 -0600, Rich wrote:
OK, now here is my take on this "frost heave" item.  To have any 'heaving" 
there has to be either differential expansion or contraction.  This will 
not happen across a free floating post that is in the ground almost any 
distance at all.
I have to disagree, Rich.  To be sure that a post (a fence post being the 
one we are all most familiar with, I think) will remain rigid (not wiggle 
when you push on the top) and remain at the elevation it was installed at, 
the post and/or post plus footing has to extend past the maximum depth of 
frost penetration.  All the concrete does is provide an un-compressible 
collar around the post to stop it moving side to side and better frictional 
resistance than the post alone.  If you look along a long fence run 
(particularly one with a continuous top rail), you invariable notice the 
post that has moved - look at the base and you will see the concrete 
footing popping up out of the ground.  The amount a post with an inadequate 
depth footing will move due to frost is a product of how much water the 
soil around it holds - topsoil is the worst for this because of the high 
organic content.  Silt is second worst and sand the best.  Clay may be good 
or bad, depending on the depth of the natural water table and the degree of 
surface slope - flat areas on clay soil where water ponds and stays after a 
rain are bad for frost movement, sloped area where the water runs off 
easily have few problems with frost heave.

The differential expansion reasoning that you quote refers to the movement 
of two dissimilar materials that will be caused by a change in 
temperature.  The most common example people would be familiar with is a 
fracture of a reinforced concrete slab due to differential expansion 
between the steel reinforcing and the concrete.  This is really due to 
inadequate cover of concrete over the reinforcing or inadequate slab 
thickness to resist the forces of differential expansion.  This term 
doesn't really apply to the issue of frost movement of a post.

The second thing that stops a post from moving from frost action is the 
friction between the footing and the ground around it.  This is why a 
concrete footing will perform better in this regard than a post with native 
or granular backfill around it - the frictional resistance to movement 
between the concrete and the ground is higher than between the post and the 
backfill, because the post has a smooth, relatively impervious surface and 
concrete is rough.

For people who have had good results with what, on the surface, appears to 
be an inadequate 'design', it is more a matter of good luck with your soil 
conditions than anything else.  Unless the person you are advising has very 
similar conditions to you, it is unreasonable to assume that they will have 
a similar performance, which leads me back to my original suggestion - do 
it 'right' the first time and you won't have to do it over again.

The idea of a completely floating installation (deck blocks on the ground), 
is quite workable and will perform acceptably provided the soil conditions 
(type of soil and depth) and surface slopes are relatively uniform across 
the site.  Where they aren't it will be necessary to do minor adjustment to 
the level of the track every year or two or three.  If this level of 
maintenance is acceptable to you, and it's the best priced alternative, 
it's the one to choose.

I'm with Dave on this one - I over engineered my own because I'd rather 
play with my trains than work on my railroad.  Chacun a son gout!  (sorry, 
no accents available in my mail program)

regards,
pf

twin fire tube boilers

[Bert & Edmunda]

To All

Has anyone an Accucraft C-21 or a K-27  and if so have you had
problems with the left fire going out? This is the tube with the
superheater running through it. Theoretical this tube should re-ignite
due to the Stainless superheater glowing. It does not.  a number of
experiments are in progress eg. regulating the air flow on the right
tube, which it seems never goes out! a Stainless steel fine mesh gauze
has reduced the problem, etc.  I would be pleased for any thoughts on
the problem. Accucraft burners generally are being replaced by burners
of 8mm dia. and about 100mm long these have three rows of holes at 3mm
offset pitch 1.5mm dia.  This kills the whistle and increases the burn
time from a tank of gas Some Accucraft burners have 10mm burners and
the 8mm burners are just bushed into the jet assembly. It would be
nice to find the problem though before replacing the burners. Thank
you in advance for your thoughts on this one.

Bert
Dienstag, 04. Jänner 2005



-
Bert &  Edmunda
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 

Re: posts and frost heave

[jsbetsko]

Dave and all,

Last week, I looked closely at Chuck Walter's install online and showed it to 
my wife.  Instead, she really liked those pictures of that layout at the G1MRA 
website.  I was hoping to avoid the concrete blocks; but the alternative is too 
much digging and pouring concrete.  I now have a better understanding of the 
concrete blocks in dealing with the frost heave.  It looks as though we will 
build a hybrid of the two.

Since I am starting relatively small, I think that the concrete block method 
will allow for easier modular expansion.

I appreciate everyone's comments; they were all very helpful.

Thanks,
Joe


> At 10:39 PM -0800 1/4/05, Gary wrote:
> >Doing it right can save money and frustration.
> 
> yes, but where's the fun in that?
> 
> At 8:06 AM -0500 1/5/05, Jim Curry wrote:
> >How about no holes?   Set the 4x4 posts onto the concrete patio blocks
> >designed to accept them.  The entire layout goes up with the frost and down
> >with the thaw.  I've had mine up since 1998 with no problems.
> 
> we've really got to share more about peripheral stuff like building 
> layouts ... it took me *months* to figure out that enough patio 
> blocks would mean that i wouldn't have to drill holes in my wife's 
> newly poured, tinted and embossed patio. as she has repeatedly told 
> me in the subsequent two years, though, the damn thing is so 
> over-engineered that we could hold dance contests on it (hey, watch 
> out for the rail) with no problem at all.
> 
> \dmc
> 
> -- 
> ^^^
> Dave Cole
> Gen'l Sup't:  Grand Teton & Everglades Steam Excursion Co.
>Pacifica, Calif. USA   PROTECTED]>
> List Mom: sslivesteam, the list of small-scale live steamers
>
> 
> ATTEND THE NATIONAL SUMMER STEAMUP IN SACRAMENTO, JULY 20-24, 2005
> For more information, visit the web site at 
> 
> ^^^  

Re: sslivesteam-Digest - Number 1318

[Rich]

OK, now here is my take on this "frost heave" item.  To have any 'heaving" 
there has to be either differential expansion 
or contraction.  This will not happen across a free floating post that is in 
the ground almost any distance at all.  Think 
about what you have actually seen that had a frost heave.  Most of the time it 
is a blacktop only road (not on a concrete 
base) in the early spring after a warm day.  Ground froze and road hot in 
afternoon sun.  Not to mention that the road is 
long and skinny when compared to the surrounding ground.  Road looks like a 
snake when later in the evening it is 
straight again.  This happens to railroad track also.  This is why the trains 
go clickity - clack

You have to support the base of the post sufficiently to provide the required 
lateral strength.  The patio blocks work fine if 
set into the ground an inch or so.

I am in Iowa which experiences violent temperature transients, 100 degrees in 
the summer and -10 in the winter.  I 
have a deck that is supported by 4x6 posts that are only a foot into the ground 
and it is quite stable. 

I have seen Ron's layout and it is quite stable and I suspect that the ground 
around his house has a high moisture 
content so it does freeze hard.

I think that the risk of frost heave is non existant unless your layout is 
constructed in such a manner that you induce 
the conditions to get differential expansion or contraction.

Rich


On Wed, 05 Jan 2005 08:45:00 -0500, Ron Brown wrote:

->Joe, I live a few hours north of you, between Binghamton and Ithaca, New
->York. A few years ago I agonized over the question of how deep the postholes
->should be and how to anchor them. Then I attended a steamup in Ottawa and
->was surprised to see that the track support posts on that track didn't go
->into postholes at all, but were just sitting on concrete deck blocks. I
->talked to the owner about that system, and he had found it quite
->satisfactory. I decided that if it would work that far north, it would work
->for me, so I acquired the deck blocks and some PVC pipe, had my son bring
->his laser level and went to work. Now it's 7 years later, and there has
->never been a problem with frost heave. If there have been any changes in the
->original level of the track, it is so minor as to be undetectable. This
->system is a lot easier and has proved itself on a number of tracks besides
->mine.
->
->If you have any questions about this method, please feel free to contact me
->directly or on this forum. My e-mail address is.. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
->
->Good luck! 
->
->Ron Brown
->Steam in the Garden
->
->
-> 
->> Message Number: 2
->> Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 19:58:53 -0500
->> From: Joe Betsko <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
->> Subject: posts and frost heave
->> 
->> Hello,
->> 
->> I bought some western red cedar, 2 x 4's and 4 x 4's, to begin
->> construction of the elevated line.  I have moved some plants, drawing
->> some inspiration from this picture:
->> http://www.gaugeone.org/images/LNWR.jpg but on a smaller and more
->> manageable scale.  The line should be about 30" above the ground.  I
->> have a half acre but a 20 x 40 ft. area should be a good start.  Okay,
->> the real inspiration was catching a cold from having to get down on the
->> ground for operations and not wanting to go through the nasty cold
->> business again.
->> 
->> I am located in the Harrisburg, PA, area and frost heave evidences
->> itself from time to time.  I plan on digging post holes about a foot
->> and a half deep, filling the bottom with about two inches of gravel,
->> installing the post in the hole and then backfilling with dirt while
->> maintaining plumb.  Based on this methodology, will the posts be
->> susceptible to the effects of frost heave?
->> 
->> Thanks,
->> Joe
->> 
->> 
->> --
->> 
->> Message Number: 3
->> Date: Tue, 04 Jan 2005 19:40:35 -0600
->> From: Harry Wade <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
->> Subject: Re: posts and frost heave
->> 
->> At 07:58 PM 1/4/05 -0500, you wrote:
->>> I am located in the Harrisburg, PA,
->>> I plan on digging post holes about a foot and a half deep, - Joe
->> 
->> Joe,
->> MY frostline is 18" so yours will be more, as much as 36".  Your
->> local building codes office will be able to tell what the local minimum
->> recommended building frostline is.  Double-check any answer you get from
->> talking to a contractor, or your brother-in-law, because that might be an
->> "Aw that ought'a be enough" figure and of course they won't be around if
->> the posts pop out of the ground.  I'm not saying you absolutely must drill
->> to Oz with this but you KNOW that if my building frostline is at 18" then
->> yours should be somewhat deeper than that.
->> 
->> Harry Wade
->> Nashville TN
->> 
->> 
->> --
->> 
->> Message Number: 4
->> Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 17:42:37 -0800
->> From: "Gary" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
->> Subject: Joe Betsko's posts and frost heave
->> 
->> Yes.
->> Why no

Re: posts and frost heave

[Dave Cole]

At 10:39 PM -0800 1/4/05, Gary wrote:
Doing it right can save money and frustration.
yes, but where's the fun in that?
At 8:06 AM -0500 1/5/05, Jim Curry wrote:
How about no holes?   Set the 4x4 posts onto the concrete patio blocks
designed to accept them.  The entire layout goes up with the frost and down
with the thaw.  I've had mine up since 1998 with no problems.
we've really got to share more about peripheral stuff like building 
layouts ... it took me *months* to figure out that enough patio 
blocks would mean that i wouldn't have to drill holes in my wife's 
newly poured, tinted and embossed patio. as she has repeatedly told 
me in the subsequent two years, though, the damn thing is so 
over-engineered that we could hold dance contests on it (hey, watch 
out for the rail) with no problem at all.

\dmc
--
^^^
Dave Cole
Gen'l Sup't:  Grand Teton & Everglades Steam Excursion Co.
  Pacifica, Calif. USA  
List Mom: sslivesteam, the list of small-scale live steamers
  
ATTEND THE NATIONAL SUMMER STEAMUP IN SACRAMENTO, JULY 20-24, 2005
For more information, visit the web site at 
^^^ 

Maxwell Hemmons Porter O-ring Replacements

[Mr mike gray]

Hi,
 
My Porter has so many miles on her that that she looks
like a steamer with the cylinder cocks  always wide
open. The dilemma is how to remove the connector
pieces from the cylinder shafts to remove and replace
the O-rings. Appears to be a press fit but with the
loco long out of production I don't want to apply too
much force and forever sideline her because of a
broken rod connector.
 
Has anyone else had to replace the cylinder shaft
O-rings ? If so, how did you go about doing it ?
 
Thanks,
 
Mike Gray
Lakewood, OH

Re: sslivesteam-Digest - Number 1318

[Ron Brown]

Joe, I live a few hours north of you, between Binghamton and Ithaca, New
York. A few years ago I agonized over the question of how deep the postholes
should be and how to anchor them. Then I attended a steamup in Ottawa and
was surprised to see that the track support posts on that track didn't go
into postholes at all, but were just sitting on concrete deck blocks. I
talked to the owner about that system, and he had found it quite
satisfactory. I decided that if it would work that far north, it would work
for me, so I acquired the deck blocks and some PVC pipe, had my son bring
his laser level and went to work. Now it's 7 years later, and there has
never been a problem with frost heave. If there have been any changes in the
original level of the track, it is so minor as to be undetectable. This
system is a lot easier and has proved itself on a number of tracks besides
mine.

If you have any questions about this method, please feel free to contact me
directly or on this forum. My e-mail address is.. [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Good luck! 

Ron Brown
Steam in the Garden


 
> Message Number: 2
> Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 19:58:53 -0500
> From: Joe Betsko <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: posts and frost heave
> 
> Hello,
> 
> I bought some western red cedar, 2 x 4's and 4 x 4's, to begin
> construction of the elevated line.  I have moved some plants, drawing
> some inspiration from this picture:
> http://www.gaugeone.org/images/LNWR.jpg but on a smaller and more
> manageable scale.  The line should be about 30" above the ground.  I
> have a half acre but a 20 x 40 ft. area should be a good start.  Okay,
> the real inspiration was catching a cold from having to get down on the
> ground for operations and not wanting to go through the nasty cold
> business again.
> 
> I am located in the Harrisburg, PA, area and frost heave evidences
> itself from time to time.  I plan on digging post holes about a foot
> and a half deep, filling the bottom with about two inches of gravel,
> installing the post in the hole and then backfilling with dirt while
> maintaining plumb.  Based on this methodology, will the posts be
> susceptible to the effects of frost heave?
> 
> Thanks,
> Joe
> 
> 
> --
> 
> Message Number: 3
> Date: Tue, 04 Jan 2005 19:40:35 -0600
> From: Harry Wade <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: Re: posts and frost heave
> 
> At 07:58 PM 1/4/05 -0500, you wrote:
>> I am located in the Harrisburg, PA,
>> I plan on digging post holes about a foot and a half deep, - Joe
> 
> Joe,
> MY frostline is 18" so yours will be more, as much as 36".  Your
> local building codes office will be able to tell what the local minimum
> recommended building frostline is.  Double-check any answer you get from
> talking to a contractor, or your brother-in-law, because that might be an
> "Aw that ought'a be enough" figure and of course they won't be around if
> the posts pop out of the ground.  I'm not saying you absolutely must drill
> to Oz with this but you KNOW that if my building frostline is at 18" then
> yours should be somewhat deeper than that.
> 
> Harry Wade
> Nashville TN
> 
> 
> --
> 
> Message Number: 4
> Date: Tue, 4 Jan 2005 17:42:37 -0800
> From: "Gary" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: Joe Betsko's posts and frost heave
> 
> Yes.
> Why not use the method that some have adopted that allows posts to be
> adjusted?
> They install rot impervious posts (PVC 4" or 6" pipe, TREX 4x4, other
> supports) in the ground. Then have sliding posts installed over those posts
> permitting adjustments due to whatever events occur.
> 
> Here in Oregon I have had tree roots move my trestle a mere 8" higher than
> originally built.  One section of trestle dropped a noticeable inch.  I
> lowered the tree root elevated section last spring.  Frost heave is not a
> problem here.
> 
> For my deck support I drilled 3 - 4 feet deep two foot diameter concrete
> footings.  That is overkill for a track support.  However, I would not trust
> cedar directly in ground contact to survive longer than a few years.  If you
> dig 2.5 to 3' deep and then have at least 6" of aggregate for drainage, then
> use sackcrete or cement to hold the cedar, I think the cedar would have a
> better chance to survive.  Make sure the cement is above the surface of the
> ground and is rounded so water runs away from the post.  Give the wood every
> chance to not have to soak up water.  There are some "below grade fence post
> coatings" that need to cure for a week before the post is set that really
> improve the lasting quality of wood posts. I coated my cedar trestle legs
> with this stuff to help them survive.  Note how cedar fences survive well,
> but the posts and fence bottoms rot out.  OK, I am pushing definitions here,
> but look a cedar fences.  Where the wood contacts earth they rot.  Use my
> techniques and cedar lasts significantly longer.  Worth looking into if you
> want your work to last longer than let's say five to t

Re: posts and frost heave

[Jim Curry]

How about no holes?   Set the 4x4 posts onto the concrete patio blocks
designed to accept them.  The entire layout goes up with the frost and down
with the thaw.  I've had mine up since 1998 with no problems.

Jim Curry
Maine

 

Re: posts and frost heave

[Walt Swartz]

I used 1.5" PVC filled with soupy cement. No holes dug, just drove a short 
piece of rebar in the ground to prevent sideways slip. Haven't had any frost 
heave damage since the track was installed in 1996.
Keep  your steam up!
B. W. Lunkenheimer, CFO
The SWAMP RR
NAPLES, FLORIDA
- Original Message - 
From: "Joe Betsko" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Multiple recipients of sslivesteam" 
Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2005 7:58 PM
Subject: posts and frost heave


Hello,
I bought some western red cedar, 2 x 4's and 4 x 4's, to begin 
construction of the elevated line.  I have moved some plants, drawing some 
inspiration from this picture: http://www.gaugeone.org/images/LNWR.jpg but 
on a smaller and more manageable scale.  The line should be about 30" 
above the ground.  I have a half acre but a 20 x 40 ft. area should be a 
good start.  Okay, the real inspiration was catching a cold from having to 
get down on the ground for operations and not wanting to go through the 
nasty cold business again.

I am located in the Harrisburg, PA, area and frost heave evidences itself 
from time to time.  I plan on digging post holes about a foot and a half 
deep, filling the bottom with about two inches of gravel, installing the 
post in the hole and then backfilling with dirt while maintaining plumb. 
Based on this methodology, will the posts be susceptible to the effects of 
frost heave?

Thanks,
Joe

Posts and frost line.

[Gordon Watson]

Joe,
  When I built my track I tried both digging holes and earth backfill
and digging and concrete..thats for the Boids!  Second hand steel pipe
,galvanised. 1 1/2 or larger. no holes just drive it in with a tube hammer
or sledge hammer.3 ft seems fine. top with an adjustable slip bracket.. no
rot no holes.no movement..recommended.

Gordon Watson.
 

Re: posts and frost heave

[Peter Foley]

At 10:39 PM 1/4/05 -0800, you wrote:
Now that we settled depth is at minimum 3' let's discuss digging holes.
big snip
I'd check with the guys who install fence posts for you - I got 4x4 
pressure treated pine posts, 8' total length, set 42" into the ground in 6" 
diameter concrete footings.  These cost me $10 per post - I couldn't buy 
the materials and rent the digger for that price!  I wouldn't want to trust 
fencing to such a light weight system but for our use it is more than 
adequate.  It was also a lot easier on my back!

pf