Re: Capillarity
Gary,, You Knitpicker you--at least he incorporated some good ideas Some credit for the poor fellow! Thanks for the history. Geoff (*smile*) So Merlin loco works knew how to do it almost 20 yrs ago! I wouldn't think I would bestow credit on Tom Cooper aka Mr. Merlin. Most likely it was one of the Becks that he was converting at the time. These were cataloged as Merlin Beck Engineering Ltd. one of which was called Maestro. A clear photo of this water gauge is on page 62 of the 16 mm scale live steam model locomotives Vol. 1 by Peter Dobson. ISBN 0 947750 01 0. Gary B
Re: Capillarity
Hi, To my knowledge, the last loco Tom Cooper marketed in America was based on the Barclay Locomotive Works Aileen. By coincidence, Mr. Andrew Barclay, founder of said locoworks in Kilmarnock(sp) has a grandson living in the states. He visited me at The Depot today Andy and I have been friends since 1983. He is a machine tool salesman and did his apprentice as a machinist under direction of his grandfather. Andy is also a fan of single malt Scotch whiskies. We share and exchange thoughts on such libations. We found out today that we both had just tried The Balvenie DoubleWood 12 yr. old Excellent Scotch. I own a Cooper Aileen, and it is one of the most reliable locomotives I have ever owned. It cost around $300.00 new and today it outpulls the Rube with ease. I've modified mine quite a bit in appearance, but would like to get one in original condition to give to Andy. Keep your steam up! Walt PS Barclay Loco Works is still in operation, but does not build steamers anymore, just diesel loco's. The Barclay family is no longer affiliated with the company.
Re: Capillarity
Thanks Walt, Very interesting-I like the description of your Cooper Aileen. My Hunslet cost $500 new, it is powerful too--a 2-6-2, and long running. Has required some repairs--my fault! --I like the description of your Cooper Aileen. The Scotch? I have a bottle of 10yr old Glenmorangie Single Highland Malt Scotch whiskey but I daren't drink it!! The chap from England who gave it to me kept boasting how much he paid for it. Geoff Hi, To my knowledge, the last loco Tom Cooper marketed in America was based on the Barclay Locomotive Works Aileen. By coincidence, Mr. Andrew Barclay, founder of said locoworks in Kilmarnock(sp) has a grandson living in the states. He visited me at The Depot today Andy and I have been friends since 1983. He is a machine tool salesman and did his apprentice as a machinist under direction of his grandfather. Andy is also a fan of single malt Scotch whiskies. We share and exchange thoughts on such libations. We found out today that we both had just tried The Balvenie DoubleWood 12 yr. old Excellent Scotch. I own a Cooper Aileen, and it is one of the most reliable locomotives I have ever owned. It cost around $300.00 new and today it outpulls the Rube with ease. I've modified mine quite a bit in appearance, but would like to get one in original condition to give to Andy. Keep your steam up! Walt PS Barclay Loco Works is still in operation, but does not build steamers anymore, just diesel loco's. The Barclay family is no longer affiliated with the company.
Capillarity
Has anyone considered using plastic in lieu of glass? In one of our biology lab experiments we have our students measure water in a glass graduated cylinder and then repeat the measurement in a plastic (Nalgene,TM) graduated cylinder. With glass you need to read the bottom of the curve, called the meniscus. With plastic this is not necessary as there is no wetting and therefore no capillary action. Clearly (no pun intended) such a plastic tube would have to be able to withstand the heat and pressure of steam. Here I can offer no information. Any materials experts out there should be able to provide the right info. May save a lot of headaches! Keep your steam and sap up! Fritz Brohn
Re: Capillarity
Since this is a live steam list, I also have to mention Wick oilers which work by capillarity. Have a pot of oil with a wick hanging down into the oil. Lead the wick up and over the side of the pot into another pot, and it will siphon the oil over to the other pot. Bearings have been oiled that way for years. Control of the oil flow rate is gained by twisting a wire around the wick to strangle it. I'm still surprised that it actually works. Cheers, Peter.
Re: Capillarity
Harry, Nope. I wasn't yanking your chain. I actually thought that perhaps someone in the architectural field might have a need to outsource such a service on occasion for load bearing walls, earthquake and wind resistance, etc. I don't know of anyone with FEA software either, but I'll see if Parametric Technologies (Pro/E) might can do a freebie for me. Surely, considering what we paid for their software, they can do just one little favor. Later, Trent Harry Wade wrote: At 01:48 PM 5/30/01 -0500, you wrote: Harry, Do you know anyone with Finite Element Analysis experience and software? OK I've admitted I don't know anything about this, now you're just yanking my chain aren't you? :-) But to answer your question, no. hw
Re: Capillarity
So Merlin loco works knew how to do it almost 20 yrs ago! I wouldn't think I would bestow credit on Tom Cooper aka Mr. Merlin. Most likely it was one of the Becks that he was converting at the time. These were cataloged as Merlin Beck Engineering Ltd. one of which was called Maestro. A clear photo of this water gauge is on page 62 of the 16 mm scale live steam model locomotives Vol. 1 by Peter Dobson. ISBN 0 947750 01 0. Gary B
Re: Capillarity
Isn't this how sap in a tree works ? Peter. -- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Capillarity Date: Tuesday, May 29, 2001 9:56 PM Hi, How many people remember the classic demonstration of capillarity used in almost all phys/chem classes? Basically an open water surface with a circular plate that had different size holes drilled in it to accept different sizes of glass tubing. Sometimes they even put fool coloring in the water to make the phenomenon even more graphic. Now if I could only remember what I saw.. B. W. Lunkenheimer
Re: Capillarity
At 11:15 AM 5/30/01 -0400, you wrote: Isn't this how sap in a tree works ? Peter. Peter, Supposedly. I went looking for good, meaty information of behavior of capillary action, and possibly information with which to predict it (I found neither), but what I did find is that now the universal favorite classroom demostration of the phenomenon of capillary action is to place a stalk of celery in a bowl of colored water and watch the color rise in the stalk. Tree, celery, close enough? Cheers, Harry
Re: Capillarity
Well, Harry, the bit where it loses me is that just below the liquid surface there has to be a reduced pressure (below atmospheric) so that the rest of the liquid can be sucked up. (The capillary attraction is only present at the surface of the tube between liquid and gas.) So all very fine, but when your stick of celery (tree) is 33 feet high, this reduced pressure will be a perfect vacuum. Hence QED no tree can be taller than 33 feet. If on the other hand, the roots push the sap up, then a 300 foot tree will need 150 psi at the base. Something's not right here !!! Peter. -- From: Harry Wade [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Capillarity Date: Wednesday, May 30, 2001 11:28 AM At 11:15 AM 5/30/01 -0400, you wrote: Isn't this how sap in a tree works ? Peter. Peter, Supposedly. I went looking for good, meaty information of behavior of capillary action, and possibly information with which to predict it (I found neither), but what I did find is that now the universal favorite classroom demostration of the phenomenon of capillary action is to place a stalk of celery in a bowl of colored water and watch the color rise in the stalk. Tree, celery, close enough? Cheers, Harry
Re: Capillarity
At 12:23 PM 5/30/01 -0400, you wrote: Something's not right here !!! Peter. Sorry Peter, I'm well past my point of making educated guesses, at least those which I'd put in print. I agree that it's logical that some component of atmospheric pressure is involved, or so it would seem to me, but then how is it's occurrence in the pressurized atmosphere of a boiler explained? That would indicate that Bar has no effect on it's effect. The kind of technical information I hoped to find would have told me such things as whether cap action is present all along the fluid path, or not, and a formula for determining fluid rise in a tube of a given area. Maybe cap action is one of those phenomenon that's an exception to some laws of physics, or maybe trees and celery and water glasses aren't nearly as similar as we think they are. Cheers, Harry
Re: Capillarity
Partially, but not entirely. There are many trees that are much taller than the capillary push/pull will overcome. I haven't been into this discussion for over 40 years, so I'm no where up to date on the latest theory.does turgor pressure ring any bells? Not to be confused with tumesc#$@. Keep your steam up! Walt
Re: Capillarity
Harry, Do you know anyone with Finite Element Analysis experience and software? I'm still not sure that FEA would even help in this situation. There is a web page (I have it book marked somewhere) that shows an FEA model of a partitioned room having saturated steam introduced at one point and vented at another. If I can find the web page again, I'll ask them if FEA can perform an analysis on capillary action. It would be interesting to see in action. Later, Trent Harry Wade wrote: Maybe cap action is one of those phenomenon that's an exception to some laws of physics, or maybe trees and celery and water glasses aren't nearly as similar as we think they are.
Re: Capillarity
At 01:48 PM 5/30/01 -0500, you wrote: Harry, Do you know anyone with Finite Element Analysis experience and software? OK I've admitted I don't know anything about this, now you're just yanking my chain aren't you? :-) But to answer your question, no. hw
Re: Capillarity
No. As I recall, sap is primarily drawn up by the evaporation of water through the leaves. There may be some added benefit due to capillary action as well, but it is not the primary force.. Peter Trounce wrote: Isn't this how sap in a tree works ? Peter. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] How many people remember the classic demonstration of capillarity used in almost all phys/chem classes? Basically an open water surface with a circular plate that had different size holes drilled in it to accept different sizes of glass tubing.
Re: Capillarity
Well, capillarity is OK. It's what happens when a liquid wets a surface. And wetting means that the molecules of water and glass attract each other, so that the water climbs a distance up the glass, only limited by how much weight of water the surface tension force can lift. It varies from one substance to another. It is a surface effect only. When the water is in a tube, the lifting force is determined by the perimeter of the inside water surface. The weight of water to be lifted is determined by the area of the water surface cross-section of the tube. So the lifting force is as the linear perimeter (pi times diameter) , the weight is as the area (pi times diameter squared divided by 4). So the smaller the tube, the easier the lift overcomes the weight. Small tubes = high lift. This also what makes soldering go. The liquid wets the metal and rushes into narrow clearances. If it doesn't wet it, then the liquid is repelled. If you look at a mercury barometer, you will see that the mercury is pushed down (it doesn't wet glass). But sap in trees, I dunno. Peter.
Re: Capillarity
I think the process is osmosis caused by a solution gradient due to evaporation from the leaves Its a long time since my bio classses. If you place a piece of large bore tubing in a bowl of water the water level inside and out the tube remains the same. As you reduce the size of the bore you reach a point where the surface tension of the water is enough to start drawing the water up the tube. The smaller the bore the stronger the surface tension (I think) until (I think) gravity says so far and no further. This is why rising damp in walls has a natural height limit unless you used one of the Hygroscopic plaster materials. We need a physicist to confirm this... Sam E Chris Wolcott wrote: No. As I recall, sap is primarily drawn up by the evaporation of water through the leaves. There may be some added benefit due to capillary action as well, but it is not the primary force.. Peter Trounce wrote: Isn't this how sap in a tree works ? Peter. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] How many people remember the classic demonstration of capillarity used in almost all phys/chem classes? Basically an open water surface with a circular plate that had different size holes drilled in it to accept different sizes of glass tubing.
Re: Capillarity
Vacuum. The water evaporating out of the leaf creates a partial pressure that draws up additional liquid to replace it. I don't remember all the nitty-gritty details, but if you know one you can ask a horticulturist. Peter Trounce wrote: Chris, Fair enough, but after the sap in the leaf evaporates to the air, what pushes or pulls more sap in ? Peter.
Re: Capillarity
Garden Gnomes 8-) (We have a frost warning for tonight - down to 34 f last night ) Peter Trounce wrote: Chris, Fair enough, but after the sap in the leaf evaporates to the air, what pushes or pulls more sap in ? Peter. -- From: Chris Wolcott [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Capillarity Date: Wednesday, May 30, 2001 3:49 PM No. As I recall, sap is primarily drawn up by the evaporation of water through the leaves. There may be some added benefit due to capillary action as well, but it is not the primary force.. Peter Trounce wrote: Isn't this how sap in a tree works ? Peter.
Re: Capillarity
Loverley, Chris wrote: No. As I recall, sap is primarily drawn up by the evaporation of water through the leaves. There may be some added benefit due to capillary action as well, but it is not the primary force.. Peter wrote: Fair enough, but after the sap in the leaf evaporates to the air, what pushes or pulls more sap in ? Peter. Chris responded: Vacuum. The water evaporating out of the leaf creates a partial pressure that draws up additional liquid to replace it. I don't remember all the nitty-gritty details, but if you know one you can ask a horticulturist. Chris Well, I write: From sight glasses to trees for us steam saps, So--I'll have leaves on me sight glass in Sacramento--not too many as I don't want to draw all the water out of the boiler--just enough to put those dam bubbles back into the boiler!! This is gettin' complicated--all the more fun--a little diversion. Geoff.
Re: Capillarity
OK but vacuum will not suck up water more than 33 feet. So what does the top of the tree do ? Peter. -- From: Chris Wolcott [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Capillarity Date: Wednesday, May 30, 2001 5:19 PM Vacuum. The water evaporating out of the leaf creates a partial pressure that draws up additional liquid to replace it. I don't remember all the nitty-gritty details, but if you know one you can ask a horticulturist. Peter Trounce wrote: Chris, Fair enough, but after the sap in the leaf evaporates to the air, what pushes or pulls more sap in ? Peter.
Re: Capillarity
All - Have a look here: http://www.massmaple.org/flow.html - John - Original Message - From: Peter Trounce [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2001 6:35 PM Subject: Re: Capillarity OK but vacuum will not suck up water more than 33 feet. So what does the top of the tree do ? Peter. -- From: Chris Wolcott [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Capillarity Date: Wednesday, May 30, 2001 5:19 PM Vacuum. The water evaporating out of the leaf creates a partial pressure that draws up additional liquid to replace it. I don't remember all the nitty-gritty details, but if you know one you can ask a horticulturist. Peter Trounce wrote: Chris, Fair enough, but after the sap in the leaf evaporates to the air, what pushes or pulls more sap in ? Peter.
Re: Capillarity
If I may be so bold as to step into a fray with those much more knowledgeable than I, the capillary action only has to act over the length of one cell. And then the load (of lifting) is passed on to the next cell. royce Geoff Spenceley wrote: Loverley, Chris wrote: No. As I recall, sap is primarily drawn up by the evaporation of water through the leaves. There may be some added benefit due to capillary action as well, but it is not the primary force.. Peter wrote: Fair enough, but after the sap in the leaf evaporates to the air, what pushes or pulls more sap in ? Peter. Chris responded: Vacuum. The water evaporating out of the leaf creates a partial pressure that draws up additional liquid to replace it. I don't remember all the nitty-gritty details, but if you know one you can ask a horticulturist. Chris Well, I write: From sight glasses to trees for us steam saps, So--I'll have leaves on me sight glass in Sacramento--not too many as I don't want to draw all the water out of the boiler--just enough to put those dam bubbles back into the boiler!! This is gettin' complicated--all the more fun--a little diversion. Geoff.
Re: Capillarity
Shades of Botany 1 and Plant Physiology 420! With about 5 years inbetween. Almost everything mentioned here has some role in the flow of liquids in plants, but no one item totally accounts for the phenomenon. Capillarity is certainly part of it, as is evapo-transpiration, diffusion pressure deficits, osmosis, gravity, adhesion, cohesion, palisade cells, your spongy mesophyll, and very importantly, the turgidity of your guard cells (for leafy plants only). There also seemed to be some loss of energy involved in the movement of liquids, and gasses, throughout the plant. I spent a few minutes trying to find relevant info on the web, but I do not think the way search engines do, and was unable to get any up to date theory. Are there no sons or daughters of steamers that are taking introductory Botany or graduate level Plant Phys? They should be able to explain the current theory in 97 single spaced typed pages, maybe less. Keep your turgor pressure up! Mr. Lunkenheimer
Re: Capillarity
I would venture a guess that the sap in the tree only has to be raised one cell at a time ... Pete At 07:35 PM 2001-05-30 -0400, you wrote: OK but vacuum will not suck up water more than 33 feet. So what does the top of the tree do ? Peter. -- From: Chris Wolcott [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Capillarity Date: Wednesday, May 30, 2001 5:19 PM Vacuum. The water evaporating out of the leaf creates a partial pressure that draws up additional liquid to replace it. I don't remember all the nitty-gritty details, but if you know one you can ask a horticulturist. Peter Trounce wrote: Chris, Fair enough, but after the sap in the leaf evaporates to the air, what pushes or pulls more sap in ? Peter.
Re: Capillarity
Geoff, In some species of plants, the cells may be quite long. In some cases they are attached end to end with what appear to be sieves at each end (think miniature bamboo inside a plant. The massmaple piece presented a few of the many facets of liquid and gas movement in plants. This is a subject that really intrigued me in grad school, but not enough to try to do a Ph.D. on it. Tooo many unknowns then, and I'm sure many still remain today. In the meantime, we may generalize that the larger the diameter of ALL the elements of our sight glass systems, the less apparent the capillarity action will be. Even though it is May, soon to be June, Maplesugar season is long past, but we sure hope all of you have your sap rising! May the forces of adhesion and cohesion not prevent you from keeping your steam up! Walt
Re: Capillarity
Lunkenheimer Esquire, You sound so well informedYou wrote: Are there no sons or daughters of steamers that are taking introductory Botany or graduate level Plant Phys? No! but I am sure getting there with all this conversation! E.G--Royce wrote: If I may be so bold as to step into a fray with those much more knowledgeable than I, the capillary action only has to act over the length of one cell. And then the load (of lifting) is passed on to the next cell. He's right of course! To complete the education from Chris, Harry, Buddie Phil, Peter , yourself, et al I am going to John's http://www.massmaple.org/flow.html Hope I survive!--Maple? I think I have two small ones in the garden. Thankyou all, Geoff.
Re: Capillarity
Thanks Walt, I particularly like your statement: In the meantime, we may generalize that the larger the diameter of ALL the elements of our sight glass systems, the less apparent the capillarity action will be. I think I'll have you build me a sphere for my next sight glass!--or,--a cone with the small end down?? Gotta go--gotta check on my maples!-I'm really worried about them now and I thought this was all about steam engines! From one problem to another! Down with the sap--and UP with the steam! With my slippage may the forces of adhesion and cohesion help me keep my steam up! Geoff. Geoff, In some species of plants, the cells may be quite long. In some cases they are attached end to end with what appear to be sieves at each end (think miniature bamboo inside a plant. The massmaple piece presented a few of the many facets of liquid and gas movement in plants. This is a subject that really intrigued me in grad school, but not enough to try to do a Ph.D. on it. Tooo many unknowns then, and I'm sure many still remain today. In the meantime, we may generalize that the larger the diameter of ALL the elements of our sight glass systems, the less apparent the capillarity action will be. Even though it is May, soon to be June, Maplesugar season is long past, but we sure hope all of you have your sap rising! May the forces of adhesion and cohesion not prevent you from keeping your steam up! Walt
Re: Capillarity
Choo Choo Choo Toot Toot Toot. Just a little something about steam engines. 73, John de VK2XGJ VK2XGJ Satellite Gateway The early bird may get the worm but the second mouse gets the cheese! - Original Message - From: Peter Jobusch [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2001 10:21 AM Subject: Re: Capillarity I would venture a guess that the sap in the tree only has to be raised one cell at a time ... Pete At 07:35 PM 2001-05-30 -0400, you wrote: OK but vacuum will not suck up water more than 33 feet. So what does the top of the tree do ? Peter. -- From: Chris Wolcott [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Capillarity Date: Wednesday, May 30, 2001 5:19 PM Vacuum. The water evaporating out of the leaf creates a partial pressure that draws up additional liquid to replace it. I don't remember all the nitty-gritty details, but if you know one you can ask a horticulturist. Peter Trounce wrote: Chris, Fair enough, but after the sap in the leaf evaporates to the air, what pushes or pulls more sap in ? Peter.
Capillarity
Hi, How many people remember the classic demonstration of capillarity used in almost all phys/chem classes? Basically an open water surface with a circular plate that had different size holes drilled in it to accept different sizes of glass tubing. Sometimes they even put fool coloring in the water to make the phenomenon even more graphic. Now if I could only remember what I saw.. B. W. Lunkenheimer
