Re: Russia Iron [was: Forced repaint, was: Cleaning Engines]
After degreasing, wash it thoroughly with detergent and then rinse thoroughly. Next use swimming pool acid diluted 1:1 with water to wash it. Then rinse thoroughly with plenty of clear, clean water. Muriatic acid fumes can be dangerous, and you can get eye damage also. However, it is not a flesh eating acid but it will sting in cuts, etc. In my previous life, I had to wash my hands three or four times a day in muriatic acid to be sure no radio active tracers penetrated the gloves and were on my hands. HCl will not eat holes in your flesh, but it can play h!!l with mucous membranes, eyes, etc. Keep your steam up! Walt
Re: Russia Iron [was: Forced repaint, was: Cleaning Engines]
Dick, I have used the Birchwood brass black on the Class A Climax locos I've built. I have blackend the gunmetal truck castings and wheels, the Roundhouse boiler cladding and the brass smokbox and stacks I've made. I've found the best results are obtained by immersing the parts in the fluid and vigorously brushing with a old toothbrush or acid brush. I've noticed that the slightest oxidization or patina on the parts causes the process to be inhibited or not take at all. Even though you degreased the cylinders there could still be enough worked in steam oil etc. in the pores of the brass to give trouble. Now, obviously, you don't want to remove you Ruby cylinders. So I would first thoroughly clean and degrease them (again!). Use a strong degreaser such as brake cleaner. Then use a brass or steel brush on them to remove any oxide. I guess you could also use some wet-or-dry paper. Then degrease again. Use a faily stiff toothbrush to apply the blackening fluid and keep scrubbing the with it. You should find that it starts to take in small areas that you can then work on and get to grow. You will have to mask or cover the rest of the engine as it will tend to splash as you scrub the cylinders with the solution. Now you can see why I do it before I assemble everything! Blackening the brass cladding on the Roundhouse boiler required a lot of cleaning of the brass first. I'm not sure if they apply a varnish or polish, but the blacking fluid just ran off without touching it the first time I tried it. Sanding with a fine grit paper and then degreasing was required before it would key to the metal and start to blacken it. Even then it took several coat, wash, clean, re-coat cycles before I got the effect I wanted. It gives a very nice finish when done, but does require some attention to surface preparation first. Cheers Keith -- === Keith Manison Phone (876)702-0337 7 Mulberry CloseFax (876)702-0661 Jacks Hill P.A.Email [EMAIL PROTECTED] Kingston 6, Jamaica W.I.
Re: Russia Iron [was: Forced repaint, was: Cleaning Engines]
I'm guessing that the cylinders are bronze, not brass. Bronze doesn't respond to copper blackening agents in my experience with trying it (limited). That seems strange, since they definitely are copper compounds, but there it is. Sounds like painting is the only way to do the deed. -vance- "Another day goes by in the time machine. I've been breaking my brain over what it might mean just to claim the time to turn away and make today today." --James Taylor
Re: Russia Iron [was: Forced repaint, was: Cleaning Engines]
Kev, I purchased a bottle of brass black from Brownell two weeks ago. It came and It was made by Birchwood It is in a blue Plastic bottle. I took my Ruby and the bottle and headed for the workshop. I wanted to blacken the cylinders on the little beast . I degreased the brass and then took a cotton swab and applied the juice to the brass , well to my surprise nothing happened. the question that I have is what am I doing wrong? Any ideas for making the brass black work will be appreciated. I have thought a little heat might help but I am a little hesitant to do same. Dick W. -Original Message- From: Kevin Strong <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Friday, February 23, 2001 3:12 PM Subject: Re: Russia Iron [was: Forced repaint, was: Cleaning Engines] >I swear by the brass black that Sulphur Springs sells. (It's made by >Birchwood Casey.) > >For my money, I'll never paint a boiler jacket again. It's really that >simple. I like the effect so much. It's not quite as "mirroresque" as >what a "Russian Iron" finish is reputed to be, but it's pretty darned >close. With enough polishing, you could probably get quite a nice shine >out of it. The brass does have to be clean for best results. Generally, >I just rub a Q-tip over the sheet until I get an even coloration across >the sheet. I've also tried putting a paper towel over the sheet and >dripping the brass black over the paper towel until it's saturated. > >I'm also a big fan of the powdered graphite on the smokebox trick. I've >been using that with great success for about 5 years, and have only had >to re-apply it once to retouch a few areas after a "thourough" >degreasing with 409. (Yes, I'm a fan of that, too.) The key is to find >something that will stick to the brass, or whatever material you're >using for your smokebox. The frone edge of my Ruby bash is chipping a >bit where I have worn off the graphite from opening the smokebox door. >I'll have to try the pencil trick. > >BTW, Vance has good pics of the front of the loco at >http://www.nmia.com/~vrbass/steam/ruby/DH01/Allison_pilot.jpg > >(Don't ask me why I don't have them up yet on my own site...) > >Later, > >K >
Re: Russia Iron [was: Forced repaint, was: Cleaning Engines]
Bob, Pretty good link? I'd rate it far above average for it's information content. Thanks a ton for posting the link. Later, Trent [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Here is a pretty good link for Russian Iron: > http://victorian.fortunecity.com/lion/829/articles/boiler.htm > Bob >
Re: Russia Iron [was: Forced repaint, was: Cleaning Engines]
I swear by the brass black that Sulphur Springs sells. (It's made by Birchwood Casey.) For my money, I'll never paint a boiler jacket again. It's really that simple. I like the effect so much. It's not quite as "mirroresque" as what a "Russian Iron" finish is reputed to be, but it's pretty darned close. With enough polishing, you could probably get quite a nice shine out of it. The brass does have to be clean for best results. Generally, I just rub a Q-tip over the sheet until I get an even coloration across the sheet. I've also tried putting a paper towel over the sheet and dripping the brass black over the paper towel until it's saturated. I'm also a big fan of the powdered graphite on the smokebox trick. I've been using that with great success for about 5 years, and have only had to re-apply it once to retouch a few areas after a "thourough" degreasing with 409. (Yes, I'm a fan of that, too.) The key is to find something that will stick to the brass, or whatever material you're using for your smokebox. The frone edge of my Ruby bash is chipping a bit where I have worn off the graphite from opening the smokebox door. I'll have to try the pencil trick. BTW, Vance has good pics of the front of the loco at http://www.nmia.com/~vrbass/steam/ruby/DH01/Allison_pilot.jpg (Don't ask me why I don't have them up yet on my own site...) Later, K
Re: Russia Iron [was: Forced repaint, was: Cleaning Engines]
In a message dated 2/23/2001 10:22:15 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > they sold me some Liver of Sulphur that > was supposed to color brass black. It did nothing to the brass but sure > blackened the silver solder joints (and stunk up my shop) Salty, Add some ammonia to the solution and use it very hot, not boiling, and either dip your piece or brush it on. Make sure your brass is clean. Other than that, just tell people you ate beans for lunch! :) Bob
Re: Russia Iron [was: Forced repaint, was: Cleaning Engines]
> I have not had much success finding the Brownell's Brass Black > locally. Brownells' is a gunsmithing supplier. I've seen their products in the sporting goods (fishing and hunting) department at my neighborhood Wal-Mart. Sulphur Springs Steam Models also carries blackening agents -- they seem to have _everything_ we need, if we just think to look for it there. I'm slowly learning this, after the half-round brass wire inquiry -vance- "Another day goes by in the time machine. I've been breaking my brain over what it might mean just to claim the time to turn away and make today today." --James Taylor
Re: Russia Iron [was: Forced repaint, was: Cleaning Engines]
In a message dated 2/23/2001 9:58:02 AM Pacific Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> Does anyone read heiroglyphics(sp?)
It comes up on my screen. Here, though, is an old description of the process.
Dec. 1, 1888The Engineering and Mining Journal. 461-462
MANUFACTURE OF RUSSIAN SHEET IRON.*
There appears to be much misunderstanding in reference to the manufacture of
sheet iron in Russia, and questions are frequently asked the writer: "What
are the secrets connected with it?" "How is it made?" "Could admission be
obtained to the iron works in the Urals, where this iron is made?" It is
difficult to understand why such questions should be asked by persons versed
in the literature of iron and steel, for Dr. Percy wrote a very excellent
and accurate monograph on the subject a number of years ago.
Not having had the opportunity of personally visiting the Russian iron works
in the Urals, Dr. Percy's paper was compiled from data furnished him by a
number of persons who visited these sheet iron works. Since it has been my
good fortune to have the opportunity of seeing some of these works in the
Urals but a short time ago, I will, at the risk of telling an old story,
briefly describe the process of manufacture as I saw it.
The ores used for the manufacture of this iron are mostly from the
celebrated mines of Maloblagodatj, and average about the following chemical
composition: Metallic iron 60 per cent, silica 5 per cent, phosphorus from
0.15 to 0.06 per cent. The ore is generally smelted into coal pig-iron and
converted into malleable iron by puddling or by a Franche-Comté hearth.
Frequently, however, the malleable iron is made directly from the ore in
various kinds of bloomaries.
The blooms or billets thus obtained are rolled into bars 6 inches wide, 1/4"
inch thick, and 30 inches in length. These bars are assorted, the inferior
ones "piled" re-rolled whilst the others are carefully heated to redness and
cross-rolled into sheets about 30 inches square, requiring from eight to ten
passes through the rolls. These sheets are twice again heated to redness and
rolled in sets of three each, care being taken that every sheet before being
passed through the rolls is brushed off with a wet broom made of fir, and at
the same time that powdered charcoal is dexterously sprinkled between the
sheets. Ten passes are thus made, and the resulting sheets trimmed to a
standard size of 25 by 56 inches. After being assorted and the defective
ones thrown out, each sheet is wetted with water, dusted with charcoal
powder and dried. They are then made into packets containing from 60 to
100, and bound up with the waste sheets.
The packets are placed one at a time, with a log of wood at each of the four
sides in a nearly air-tight chamber, and carefully annealed for five or six
hours. When this has been completed the packet is removed and hammered with
a trip hammer weighing about a ton, the area of its striking surface being
about 6 by 14 inches. The face of the hammer is made of this somewhat
unusual shape in order to secure a wavey appearance on the surface of the
packet. After the packet has received ninety blows equally distributed over
its surface it is reheated and the hammering repeated in the same manner.
Some time after the first hammering the packet is broken and the sheets
wetted with a mop to harden the surface. After the second hammering the
packet is broken, the sheets examined to ascertain if any are welded
together, and completely finished cold sheets are placed alternately between
those of the packet, thus making a large packet of from 140 to 200 sheets.
It is supposed that the interposition of these cold sheets produces the
peculiar greenish color that the finished sheets posses on cooling.
This large packet is then given what is known as the finishing or polishing
hammering. For this purpose the trip hammer used has a larger face than the
others, having an area about 17 by 21 inches. When the hammering has been
properly done, the packet has received 60 blows equally distributed, and the
sheets should have a perfectly smooth, mirror-like surface. The packet is
now broken before cooling, each sheet cleaned with a wet fir broom to remove
the remaining charcoal powder, carefully inspected, an the good sheets stood
on their edges in vertical racks to cool. These sheets are trimmed to
regulation size (28 by 56 inches) and assorted into Nos. 1, 2, 3, according
to their appearance, and again assorted according to weight, which varies
from 10 to 12 lbs. per sheet. The quality varies according to color, and
freedom from flaws or spots. A first-class sheet must be without the
slightest flaw and a peculiar metallic gray color, and on bending a number
of times with the fingers, very little or no scale is separated, as in the
case of ordinary sheet iron.
The peculiar property of Russian sheet iron is the beautiful polished
coating of oxides ("glanz") which it possesses. If there is any secret in
the process
Re: Russia Iron [was: Forced repaint, was: Cleaning Engines]
Salty wrote: > I have not had much success finding the Brownell's Brass Black locally. Salty, FWIW My gun engraver and gauge one friend orders his materials from gunsmithing catalogs. In Portland I would believe there are shops that do gun restoration work and they will have access to the Brownells' catalog and may even have some in their shop. Clark
Re: Russia Iron [was: Forced repaint, was: Cleaning Engines]
In a message dated 01-02-23 13:09:46 EST, you write: << At the risk of repating myself too often, Rich Chiodo showed me a wonderful trick I have used with great success. He suggested getting the softest artist's pencil you can find and just scribbling all over your smokebox. The effect of this is to put a layer of graphite -- with a clay binder -- on your smokebox. The heat and steam oil seem to bake the clay and the coating is quite durable. I went an extra step and sprayed some lock lube graphite on top, and the effect is gorgeous. >> And now you tell me, that is all you do is scribble all over it and cook it? I am going to have to try this. Sounds like it would sure beat Rustolium Hi-temp paint. I have not had much success finding the Brownell's Brass Black locally. I went to a jewelry supply store and they sold me some Liver of Sulphur that was supposed to color brass black. It did nothing to the brass but sure blackened the silver solder joints (and stunk up my shop). Off to look for a pencil and my graphite lock lube!! Salty
Re: Russia Iron [was: Forced repaint, was: Cleaning Engines]
Hi, It was shiny compared to the dull matt black finish of the boiler, etc. Walt
Re: Russia Iron [was: Forced repaint, was: Cleaning Engines]
Walt, graphite and steam oil was a really common coating for smokeboxes, but usually imparts a dull, silvery-gray finish. If this one was shiny, then the chances are good that it was indeed Russia Iron. (But why would they rub it with graphite? Dunno.) At the risk of repating myself too often, Rich Chiodo showed me a wonderful trick I have used with great success. He suggested getting the softest artist's pencil you can find and just scribbling all over your smokebox. The effect of this is to put a layer of graphite -- with a clay binder -- on your smokebox. The heat and steam oil seem to bake the clay and the coating is quite durable. I went an extra step and sprayed some lock lube graphite on top, and the effect is gorgeous. Try it on a piece of scrap and see what you think. (I can send a picture, too, if you want to see it on my Roundhouse.) By the way, an earlier post mentioned boilers being made of Russia Iron. I don't think this was the case. Boilers are always made out of boilerplate, which is very thick, while Russia Iron was used for the jacket. It's a thin sheetmetal which is apparently very rust resistant. regards, -vance- Vance Bass Albuquerque, New Mexico, USA Small-scale live steam resources: http://www.nmia.com/~vrbass
Re: Russia Iron [was: Forced repaint, was: Cleaning Engines]
Does anyone read heiroglyphics(sp?)? I went to the site but could not interpret it. Way back in the early 1940s, my neighbors went to Cresson, PA to visit "Grandpa Sanker". I was invited to go along because I loved trains and Grandpa Sanker was an engineer assigned to pusher duty on Cresson Mountain. He took us kids to see the trains, including nearby Horseshoe Curve. One engine had a shiny smokebox and I asked him about that. He said it was an experiment at the Altoona Shops, they were trying out "Russian Iron" finishes on the smokebox jackets. He said they rubbed oil and graphite on the hot smokebox many times to build up the shiny finish. This may or may not be fact, as it is a recollection from my memory of something that happened 60+/- years ago to an impressionable kid. Keep your steam up!, and don't forget to wipe.your smokebox after running your #1 gauge trains. Walt & Lunk
Re: Russia Iron [was: Forced repaint, was: Cleaning Engines]
Here is a pretty good link for Russian Iron: http://victorian.fortunecity.com/lion/829/articles/boiler.htm Bob
Russia Iron [was: Forced repaint, was: Cleaning Engines]
Trot, There's LOTS of people on this list much more qualified to answer questions concerning Russia Iron in real world practice. Seems like it may have come up on this list once before but I couldn't find it in the archives. Russia Iron is the actual material that the boiler is made of, not just a paint job. As for the guy that painted his boiler to look like Russia Iron, it was in fact only a paint job and not the real thing. The prototype engine that he was modeling had a Russia Iron boiler and that was his only reason for that particular paint job. I still haven't seen one of the Ruby's with the Russia Iron boiler so I'm only guessing that it is painted and not a surface treatment of some sort. It seems that there was a safety issue that ceased Russia Iron's use for boilers. With that being said, I was also told that it was only the boiler jacket that was Russia Iron and not the actual boiler. Which is it guys and gals? Later, Trent [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > One question though... What is so special about a 'Russian Iron' paint > job? Is it just another color/texture variation or is there something > special involved with it's production?
Forced repaint (was Re: Cleaning Engines)
No biggie, i have recently decided that when my Ruby finishes it's
conversion to a Columbia type it will have the name Suzy and be dark Nave
blue. Perhaps with Forest green trim as a concession to it's
namesake. {:)
One question though... What is so special about a 'Russian Iron' paint
job? Is it just another color/texture variation or is there something
special involved with it's production? I've seen other references to it
but until recently I didn't even know it was a paint finish.
Trot, the ever-curious, fox...
On Thu, 22 Feb 2001, Trent Dowler wrote:
<>
> Hate to hear about your new found paint removal process Trot. I know
> someone else that grabbed the wrong can (sleepy and alcohol related, the
> drinking kind of course) and screwed up a fresh "Russia Iron" paint job on a
> boiler. No, it wasn't me.
>
> Later,
> Trent
/\_/\TrotFox\ Always remember,
( o o ) AKA Landon Solomon \ "There is a
>\./< [EMAIL PROTECTED] \ third alternative."
Re: Cleaning Engines
Clark and everyone, Just to set the record straight, I wasn't implying to use the brake cleaner and/or carburetor cleaner on a painted surface, only to remove Dykem or it's variants from machined parts. I sure hope nobody took my comments as anything but that. I think two different message threads (cleaning Dykem from parts and cleaning engines) got intertwined somewhere. Probably in my head. Hate to hear about your new found paint removal process Trot. I know someone else that grabbed the wrong can (sleepy and alcohol related, the drinking kind of course) and screwed up a fresh "Russia Iron" paint job on a boiler. No, it wasn't me. Later, Trent Clark Lord wrote: > I shudder to think some folks are cleaning engines with brake cleaner.
Re: Cleaning Engines
Thanks, Clark, Peter. -- > From: Clark Lord <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: Re: Cleaning Engines > Date: Wednesday, February 21, 2001 3:52 PM > > It is a household cleaner in a spray bottle. The proper name is Formula > 409 all purpose cleaner and is made by the Clorox company. You find it > in the grocery store next to products like Comet, Brillo Pads, Draino > and other household cleaners.
Re: Cleaning Engines
It is a household cleaner in a spray bottle. The proper name is Formula 409 all purpose cleaner and is made by the Clorox company. You find it in the grocery store next to products like Comet, Brillo Pads, Draino and other household cleaners. The label says it removes grease and kills bacteria. I don't know about the bacteria but it does cut grease and oil and leaves the metal squeaky clean. Clark Peter Trounce wrote: > > Clark, > What is 409 ? > Peter.
Re: Cleaning Engines
Clark, What is 409 ? Peter. -- > From: Clark Lord <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: Cleaning Engines > Date: Wednesday, February 21, 2001 2:13 AM > > I shudder to think some folks are cleaning engines with brake cleaner. > Brake cleaner is super for degreasing parts before soldering, assembly > and such. But not for a completed engine. > > To clean a engine use 409 right out of the bottle. Spray it on over > everything. Use a tooth brush to get into the small spaces and a old > two inch bristle brush on the rest of the superstructure. Rinse with > your kitchen sprayer using warm water. Repeat with another shot of 409, > scrub and rinse. Let the engine air dry and then oil the moving parts.
RE: Cleaning Engines
Folks, I have tried many things to clean oil covered locos and the best I have found is Tilex soap scum remover. Most supermarkets and hardware stores stock it. We also use it at work to get sensitive circuit boards spotlessly clean. (Flux removal). It is the best degreaser I have found without going to nasty solvents. 20 years ago we actually used freon for a flux remover! I would use gloves as Tilex will also degrease your hands. GaryB
Re: Cleaning Engines
I only did it once because it seemed to be the way to go. Did get the metal all clean but bubbled the paint where it stayed on for a few secs. Is there anything I should worry about damage-wise? I oiled all the moving parts just after the brake-cleaner was rinsed off... I now have 409 in the kitchen ready to fight both types of grease. ;] But I never inhailed! Trot, the silly, foxy... On Tue, 20 Feb 2001, Clark Lord wrote: > I shudder to think some folks are cleaning engines with brake cleaner. > Brake cleaner is super for degreasing parts before soldering, assembly > and such. But not for a completed engine. > > To clean a engine use 409 right out of the bottle. Spray it on over > everything. Use a tooth brush to get into the small spaces and a old > two inch bristle brush on the rest of the superstructure. Rinse with > your kitchen sprayer using warm water. Repeat with another shot of 409, > scrub and rinse. Let the engine air dry and then oil the moving parts. > You will windup with a grease/oil free engine (except for the parts that > need oiling). > > Now to clean the inside of your boiler just run the engine with a boiler > full of white vinegar full strength out of the bottle. It won't hurt > your engine and all the crud inside will be boiled away. > > There you have it Boys and Girls. > > Clark /\_/\TrotFox\ Always remember, ( o o ) AKA Landon Solomon \ "There is a >\./< [EMAIL PROTECTED] \ third alternative."
Cleaning Engines
I shudder to think some folks are cleaning engines with brake cleaner. Brake cleaner is super for degreasing parts before soldering, assembly and such. But not for a completed engine. To clean a engine use 409 right out of the bottle. Spray it on over everything. Use a tooth brush to get into the small spaces and a old two inch bristle brush on the rest of the superstructure. Rinse with your kitchen sprayer using warm water. Repeat with another shot of 409, scrub and rinse. Let the engine air dry and then oil the moving parts. You will windup with a grease/oil free engine (except for the parts that need oiling). Now to clean the inside of your boiler just run the engine with a boiler full of white vinegar full strength out of the bottle. It won't hurt your engine and all the crud inside will be boiled away. There you have it Boys and Girls. Clark
