Re: Surveys/Polls

[Gary]

WOW! I expected much more than that!
Here in tiny Eugene, Oregon I know of five live steam owners.
I would expect more than a mere 650 live steamers in the USA.
We are really a very tiny group.
I am glad to be on this chat list. Members have helped me resurrect
the Steamlines Shay from burned hulk with cut steam lines, leaky
engine, and poor design to a good running engine that still looks
ugly.
Gary - Running trains over Terror Trestle in Eugene, Oregon
http://www.angelfire.com/or/trainguy
http://community.webshots.com/user/raltzenthor


 My guess is
that there are less than 500-650 live steam enthusiasts (45 mm and less) in
the US who actually own and run engines.

Keep your steam up and be of good cheer!
Jim Crabb
Texas Roundhouse
 

Re: Surveys/Polls

[Dave Cole]

At 8:26 PM -0500 3/18/03, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
My guess is
that there are less than 500-650 live steam enthusiasts (45 mm and less) in
the US who actually own and run engines.
that jibes with the numbers i've put together.

anyway, let's wrap this topic up ... i know i'm part of the reason it 
went on so long but i was wearing my pedantic technogeek hat at the 
time. now i'm wearing my listmom hat.

i have many hats.

\dmc

--
^^^
Dave Cole
Gen'l Sup't:  Grand Teton & Everglades Steam Excursion Co.
  Pacifica, Calif. USA  
List Mom: sslivesteam, the list of small-scale live steamers
  
ATTEND THE NATIONAL SUMMER STEAMUP IN SACRAMENTO, JULY 17-20, 2003
For more information, visit the web site at 
^^^ 

Re: Surveys/Polls

[SALTYCRABB]

As a manufacture's distributor I thought it time to put in my 2 cents.  
First, consider all of the known information about "sold" engines.  (BTW, 
Roundhouse can account for every engine sold. In 20 years they have sold 
collectively less than 3000 engines.  An average run is 10-12 engines once or 
twice a year with the exception of Lady Anne's and Darjeeling's .) Then consider how many times the same engine changes hands in 4-5 
years.  Third, consider how many folks have several engines using all 
different types of fuel. (I personally own engines using: propane, butane 
mix, alcohol and coal.) Fourth, believe it or not, the distributors listen to 
the customers and pass that information on to Roundhouse which is why the 
Forney was built and the SR24 is still built. And last, consider that well 
over 2000 members belong to the 16 mm clubs in the UK alone.  My guess is 
that there are less than 500-650 live steam enthusiasts (45 mm and less) in 
the US who actually own and run engines.

Keep your steam up and be of good cheer!
Jim Crabb
Texas Roundhouse 

Re: Surveys/Polls

[Jeff Runge]

To the group.:
 The idea of gathering information that I mentioned A few days ago was ONLY
for our own enjoyment. I mentioned Asters  questionare only as an example of
how it did NOT work for marketing.
 I am happy to see that we as a group are very passoinate about our hobby,
And enjoyed reading everyones responses. We seem split as a group on this
issue, as on all segments of the hobby.
 I enjoy seeing other peoples engines run, even if it is not what I enjoy
steaming, or collecting. This is part, of what makes steam meets fun. WE
don't insult each other a meets, infact we usually compliment others for
their efforts, reguardless of weather we are"into" that particular outline.
And if I don't own it , or am not buying it, I don't care what type of fuel
it uses.
 Sooner or later someone makes something that makes us part with our money.
( some are tallented enough to make their own, wish I could)
The people in this hobby are what make it great.
 Watching it rain again in NC, Jeff


 

Re: Surveys/Polls

[Trent Dowler]

My thoughts exactly.


Jonathan Bloom wrote:

> MY favorite loco burns something to make heat, thus steam and pushes itself
> down the track under its own power, having between 4 and 6, ..8, ok
> ...up to 16 drivers, could be geared, inside frame or outside frame, maybe
> British or American, short line, long line, plantation, definitely has to be
> prototypical but not down to the rivet, in a scale between roughly 20:1 and
> 32:1, and finished in candy apple red (because I never had a hotrod and this
> would compensate for that yearning).
>
>
> Whatever I pull out of the cabinet to run on that particular day.  Each one
> offers something different in what it demands and provides.
 

Re: Surveys/Polls

[Jonathan Bloom]

ok...ok...ok

MY favorite loco burns something to make heat, thus steam and pushes itself
down the track under its own power, having between 4 and 6, ..8, ok
...up to 16 drivers, could be geared, inside frame or outside frame, maybe
British or American, short line, long line, plantation, definitely has to be
prototypical but not down to the rivet, in a scale between roughly 20:1 and
32:1, and finished in candy apple red (because I never had a hotrod and this
would compensate for that yearning).

Jeez-la-weeze people, most manufacturers of these toys are in it for the
"fun" and love of the hobby NOT the money.  Their ROI, ROE or simply return
on time invested could be "better" spent pursuing many other endeavors, even
for Aster.  (If you've ever run a business, do the math.it's amazing to
me that Aster can afford to sell a fine scale operating steam engine for
less than $50K each.)  Offering the perfect G1 live steam engine is better
left as a mission statement rather than an actual goal.

The design variables are too broad and the market too small to draw any
conclusions from a passionate group of enthusiasts that don't represent the
whole G1 population.  At last count I have, well a bunch, of locos made
anywhere from China to Berkeley, the US to the UK and even down under.  My
favorite one?

Whatever I pull out of the cabinet to run on that particular day.  Each one
offers something different in what it demands and provides.

If you want more offerings and better value, invite non-steam junkies
(neighbors, friends, and yes sparkie operators) over and expose more people
to the hobby.  The Ruby was an interesting phenomenon that essentially went
where others hadn't in the past, namely a "real" G1 live steamer at the
price of a Mammod.  How many sparkies made the jump to (first time) live
steam with this loco and have gone on to purchase another loco?  What was
the second purchase?  There, you might have some relevant market info.  My
$.02 worth anyway.

Jon



- Original Message -
From: "Paul Lator" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Multiple recipients of sslivesteam" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2003 9:26 AM
Subject: RE: Surveys/Polls


> To All,
> I am new to the Small Scale Live steamers and have been following these
> threads for several weeks now.  I was fortunate this year to attend DH and
> observe the Mississippi Madness.  At DH I ordered my Aster Mike and have
> since completed the construction and test run the loco.  I have been a
> "Sparkie (N-Scale)" for over 30 years, I can tell you I have had more fun
> with my Mike over the past two months then I have had in many years.   The
> discussion regarding what locomotive to build, how to fire it from the
> manufacturers perspective is quite a risk.  From my point of view as a
> manufacturer of some Digital Command Control products it is a roll of the
> dice.  If a survey is prepared I would suggest the person taking the
survey
> should have a 1st, 2nd and at least a 3rd choice for the type of fuel they
> prefer.  In addition as to the locomotive of choice I would also suggest
> generic locomotives like Aster did with the Mike. This was a USRA
locomotive
> owned by many US railroads giving Aster a broader market and not a
specific
> road and locomotive allowing the builder to detail it to his/her
preference.
> For the locomotive type have multiple choices for a wheel arrangement that
> the manufacturer/builder could build a specific locomotive on top of. This
> running gear could possibly be detailed for both US and European
locomotives
> with the same wheel arrangement and boiler types.  The boiler shell, cab
and
> detail parts could be specific but the running gear remain generic.  I
think
> the Ruby is a perfect example of this concept.  To me as a newcomer to
Live
> Steam the most important issue is the locomotives performance, off the
work
> bench this locomotive ran like a Swiss watch.  By giving the manufacturer
> generic locomotives or wheel arrangements to build will open up their
market
> to a wider audience for sales and grow the hobby.
>
> Paul Lator
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of XXYZ
> Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2003 10:35 AM
> To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam
> Subject: RE: Surveys/Polls
>
>
>
> You're opening a can of worms now. I would be interested in hearing what
> people have to say about this. I would guess that there are a few
> "favorites" that are on the majority of lists. But the majority of
people's
> favorite locos are unique to their own list. One of the vendors had an
> online poll with just this question (I don't remember who it was). I would
> really like to see the result

Re: Surveys/Polls - Include the mate

[Arthur S. Cohen]

To the group,

I have only a few ideas on polling live steam enthusiasts about their likes
and desires.  Very different points.

I feel that any inquest should first establish how much a person wants to
spend/has for the purchase.  Based on this a manufacturer knows one of the
principle limitations in buying his product.  This one bit of information
tells the manufacturer how complicated an engine people generally want or
CAN buy.  I think manufacturers should offer 2 fuel types for engines in
each price range.  I imagine that coal would be an alternative only in more
costly engines.  I feel that engine makers should design in sufficient room
for the installation of servos with the recommendation of the size/torque
servo required.  Aster did that very well in the LGB Frank S.  The
manufacturer should offer axle and hand water pumps and a glass level sight
glass as an accessory in lower priced engines.  In more costly locomotives,
$2,600,00 and more, the last two items should be preinstalled.  Servos are
items of personal choice, but leave room for them.  A durable, snug,
attractive, and secure carrying case should be offered as an extra.  The
original carrier that came with my Accucraft #268 got thrown out
immediately.

Anytime a manufacturer makes more than 10 units of anything, it is cheaper
to make the item well with things fitting together correctly.  This requires
jigs and fixtures.  Design time is about the same, assembly is faster, and
the finished product is very different.  I say this from personal experience
gained in my gear factory.  It's called Quality Control.  Judging from my
#268 Accucraft lacks this quality control.  For me there's more to a model
locomotive than if it operates correctly right out of the box.  This was
exemplified in the Aster #22 with its defectively designed, but repairable,
butane fuel system.

Arthur--Mexico City

>

 

RE: Surveys/Polls

[Paul Lator]

To All,
I am new to the Small Scale Live steamers and have been following these
threads for several weeks now.  I was fortunate this year to attend DH and
observe the Mississippi Madness.  At DH I ordered my Aster Mike and have
since completed the construction and test run the loco.  I have been a
"Sparkie (N-Scale)" for over 30 years, I can tell you I have had more fun
with my Mike over the past two months then I have had in many years.   The
discussion regarding what locomotive to build, how to fire it from the
manufacturers perspective is quite a risk.  From my point of view as a
manufacturer of some Digital Command Control products it is a roll of the
dice.  If a survey is prepared I would suggest the person taking the survey
should have a 1st, 2nd and at least a 3rd choice for the type of fuel they
prefer.  In addition as to the locomotive of choice I would also suggest
generic locomotives like Aster did with the Mike. This was a USRA locomotive
owned by many US railroads giving Aster a broader market and not a specific
road and locomotive allowing the builder to detail it to his/her preference.
For the locomotive type have multiple choices for a wheel arrangement that
the manufacturer/builder could build a specific locomotive on top of. This
running gear could possibly be detailed for both US and European locomotives
with the same wheel arrangement and boiler types.  The boiler shell, cab and
detail parts could be specific but the running gear remain generic.  I think
the Ruby is a perfect example of this concept.  To me as a newcomer to Live
Steam the most important issue is the locomotives performance, off the work
bench this locomotive ran like a Swiss watch.  By giving the manufacturer
generic locomotives or wheel arrangements to build will open up their market
to a wider audience for sales and grow the hobby.

Paul Lator



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of XXYZ
Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2003 10:35 AM
To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam
Subject: RE: Surveys/Polls



You're opening a can of worms now. I would be interested in hearing what
people have to say about this. I would guess that there are a few
"favorites" that are on the majority of lists. But the majority of people's
favorite locos are unique to their own list. One of the vendors had an
online poll with just this question (I don't remember who it was). I would
really like to see the results. I also think that a list like this would
reflect just how diverse this group is. NG, European, UK, Logging, Mainline,
etc. As far as the manufacturers as concerned, would a list like this
actually be of use? How many people are going to shell out for a highly
detailed Big-Boy. I'd be willing to bet that at least a few of the Aster
Alleganys have never been fired because it would lower their investment
value. I'd love to have one but I'd build or bash something before I'd buy a
loco that I only have a passing interest in, at least not for that much
dough.

My list:

DM&IR M4 Yellowstone
Rock Island R5000 series Northern
Milwaukee Road F7 Hudson

My guess is I'll never purchase a commercial model of one of these locos
(The F7 should be next on someone's list, it's easily the one of the most
beautiful locos). Of course, I'll need appropriate rolling stock to go with
the locos. A manufacturer could make good money selling the 100 or so ore
jennies to go with the Yellowstone. But I'm rambling.


Ken

> Surely a poll/vote for "the model I'd most like to own" would be
> more use?  If we, (a very interested party,) had a permanent list
> with votes attached to each engine, then a manufacturer could get
> some idea what we (a small specialist email group,) are
> interested in.  Wouldn't it be nice to chop the top item off the
> list because a manufacturer released it?


 

RE: Surveys/Polls

[Chuck Walters]

Pete,

I never said what the survey would ask, just gave examples.  I asked the
listserv members to send ideas on what type of questions they would like to
see info gathered on and one of the questions already in the survey was,
"What type of engine would you like to see manufactured?"

My Best,

Chuck

Charles W. Walters
Twin Lakes Railway CEO
http://home.twcny.rr.com/twinlakesrw

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, March 18, 2003 9:54 AM
To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam
Subject: Re: Surveys/Polls


In a message dated 3/18/2003 3:02:14 AM Eastern Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

> With that said, and in the hopes that the results of
> such a survey would be valuable to a few manufacturers,
> I have created a shell for an online survey
> that allows for anonymity and report ability.
> It is my intention that the
> results will be shared with as many manufacturers as
> possible, here on the
> listserv and reported in Steam in the Garden.

Chuck,
I'm confused about the objective.  Surveying a group of us to find out what
we have is pretty useless info for a manufacturer.  He already knows how
many he sold.

Surely a poll/vote for "the model I'd most like to own" would be more use?
If we, (a very interested party,) had a permanent list with votes attached
to each engine, then a manufacturer could get some idea what we (a small
specialist email group,) are interested in.  Wouldn't it be nice to chop the
top item off the list because a manufacturer released it?

The obvious place to put it is on the sslivesteam home page.  One could
suggest that separate categories for std gauge versus NG might make sense?
And maybe a $$ limit subcategory?

I vote for an EBT Mike in 1:20.3.  Gas fired - if only because my other
engines already are!  Less than $2500, like the Accu C-16.

  Pete

 

RE: Surveys/Polls

[XXYZ]

You're opening a can of worms now. I would be interested in hearing what
people have to say about this. I would guess that there are a few
"favorites" that are on the majority of lists. But the majority of people's
favorite locos are unique to their own list. One of the vendors had an
online poll with just this question (I don't remember who it was). I would
really like to see the results. I also think that a list like this would
reflect just how diverse this group is. NG, European, UK, Logging, Mainline,
etc. As far as the manufacturers as concerned, would a list like this
actually be of use? How many people are going to shell out for a highly
detailed Big-Boy. I'd be willing to bet that at least a few of the Aster
Alleganys have never been fired because it would lower their investment
value. I'd love to have one but I'd build or bash something before I'd buy a
loco that I only have a passing interest in, at least not for that much
dough.

My list:

DM&IR M4 Yellowstone
Rock Island R5000 series Northern
Milwaukee Road F7 Hudson

My guess is I'll never purchase a commercial model of one of these locos
(The F7 should be next on someone's list, it's easily the one of the most
beautiful locos). Of course, I'll need appropriate rolling stock to go with
the locos. A manufacturer could make good money selling the 100 or so ore
jennies to go with the Yellowstone. But I'm rambling.


Ken

> Surely a poll/vote for "the model I'd most like to own" would be
> more use?  If we, (a very interested party,) had a permanent list
> with votes attached to each engine, then a manufacturer could get
> some idea what we (a small specialist email group,) are
> interested in.  Wouldn't it be nice to chop the top item off the
> list because a manufacturer released it?

 

Re: Surveys/Polls

[Pthornto]

In a message dated 3/18/2003 3:02:14 AM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
writes:

> With that said, and in the hopes that the results of 
> such a survey would be valuable to a few manufacturers, 
> I have created a shell for an online survey
> that allows for anonymity and report ability.  
> It is my intention that the
> results will be shared with as many manufacturers as 
> possible, here on the
> listserv and reported in Steam in the Garden. 

Chuck,
I'm confused about the objective.  Surveying a group of us to find out what we have is 
pretty useless info for a manufacturer.  He already knows how many he sold.

Surely a poll/vote for "the model I'd most like to own" would be more use?  If we, (a 
very interested party,) had a permanent list with votes attached to each engine, then 
a manufacturer could get some idea what we (a small specialist email group,) are 
interested in.  Wouldn't it be nice to chop the top item off the list because a 
manufacturer released it?

The obvious place to put it is on the sslivesteam home page.  One could suggest that 
separate categories for std gauge versus NG might make sense?  And maybe a $$ limit 
subcategory?

I vote for an EBT Mike in 1:20.3.  Gas fired - if only because my other engines 
already are!  Less than $2500, like the Accu C-16.

  Pete