RE: was Steamup Pictures - now Basic Project Engine
Maybe the problem can be solved by just changing the recommended engine to the Midwest Heritage engine instead of the Midwest Mark IV version. The Heritage has two of the three issues covered in the post by Jim It is supplied silver soldered and has a safety valve. As with the Mark IV boiler the only part that is brass is the center flue. The corrosion of the brass center tube has not been a reported problem to my knowledge. The Heritage engine costs a bit more but still holds the cost of the loco to under two hundred dollars. I think the Heritage is a better engine since it is made of bronze and will last much longer. Respectfully submitted Steve > -Original Message- > From: Alison and Jim Gregg. [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Friday, March 05, 2004 2:53 AM > To: Multiple recipients of sslivesteam > Subject: Re: was Steamup Pictures - now Basic Project Engine > > Hi Michael. > > Sorry not to get back to you on this one earlier. > > As one of the people who commented on the design of the boiler / engine > system, let me summarise why, and what can be done about it to do what I > at > least think would be an improvement on it. The problems are as I see it > as follows - in no particular order. > > Brass boiler.Problem - possible de-zincification. Probably me being > hyper sensitive, but I know of a couple of boilers (NOT the Midwest ones), > > where de-zincification has happened in a matter of weeks from the thing > being put into service. These failures are probably due to a combination > > of the water treatment used by the supply authorities - (Chloramination in > > each case), and the specific alloy brass used. As you know there are an > enormous range of alloys sold as "Brass". How Bing, Mamod etc. handle > this one is they use a specific brass alloy which is resistant to the > process. If the Midwest boiler is made of such a suitable alloy, then well > > and good. De- Zincification happens from the inside out so you do not know > > about it until the boiler starts to leak. > The best solution would be to make the boiler of copper. > > Soft soldered boiler. Soft solder does lose its strength at elevated > temperature, and at the temperature of the boiler in a small oscillating > cylinder engine, it may be reduced by 25 -50% depending on the alloy used, > > remembering also, that we are talking possibly non expert solderers among > some of the builders. I would prefer brazed joints personally I believe > that Midwest are now brazing them too. These soft soldered joints do > fail > especially if boiled dry - I have three commercial boilers (Not Midwest) > awaiting repair where the schools to which they belong have melted the > soft > solder and the boiler has released steam or hot water (I suspect > mistreatment!). > > No safety valve. All of these boilers that I've seen have had a screw in > filler plug, but no safety valve - just plain dangerous!I know that > the > plastic steam line is supposed to blow off if the pressure rises too high, > > but there are two hazards with this - The first is when someone wires or > clamps it in place to "Make a better secure job." , or else replaces it > with soldered copper not realising the safety valve function.The > second > is that I know of one case in the USA where the tube blew off at the > engine > end, and whipped about, spraying boiling water and steam from the over > filled boiler and a four year old got a face full. This was the same unit > > being used in its original application in a boat. A safety valve would > have been safer. In the boat application if the tube blows off in the > middle of the pond the boat stops and blows off the steam and water, and > may lead to a cooked soldered boiler as in above. > > I would prefer three simple modifications - 1. Hard solder (Silver braze) > the boiler. 2.Fit a safety valve and have a copper steam line. 3. Copper > > boiler. This would be slightly more expensive, but far safer and a better > > operating product.. > > Having said which, I do like the little project loco - > > Jim Gregg. > > At 12:15 AM 3/2/04 -0800, you wrote: > >Ken, > > > >I am Glad you enjoyed the pictures. We had a great day running engines. > > > >I get several inquiries about the Basic Project Engine site every month. > >There is no simple answer to your question. > > > >Honest differences of opinion exist on the subject of boiler > construction. > >It is hard to dispute the 100-year-plus history of successful > implementation > >of the principles used in Midwest's boiler design by companies such a
Re: was Steamup Pictures - now Basic Project Engine
Hi Michael. Sorry not to get back to you on this one earlier. As one of the people who commented on the design of the boiler / engine system, let me summarise why, and what can be done about it to do what I at least think would be an improvement on it. The problems are as I see it as follows - in no particular order. Brass boiler.Problem - possible de-zincification. Probably me being hyper sensitive, but I know of a couple of boilers (NOT the Midwest ones), where de-zincification has happened in a matter of weeks from the thing being put into service. These failures are probably due to a combination of the water treatment used by the supply authorities - (Chloramination in each case), and the specific alloy brass used. As you know there are an enormous range of alloys sold as "Brass". How Bing, Mamod etc. handle this one is they use a specific brass alloy which is resistant to the process. If the Midwest boiler is made of such a suitable alloy, then well and good. De- Zincification happens from the inside out so you do not know about it until the boiler starts to leak. The best solution would be to make the boiler of copper. Soft soldered boiler. Soft solder does lose its strength at elevated temperature, and at the temperature of the boiler in a small oscillating cylinder engine, it may be reduced by 25 -50% depending on the alloy used, remembering also, that we are talking possibly non expert solderers among some of the builders. I would prefer brazed joints personally I believe that Midwest are now brazing them too. These soft soldered joints do fail especially if boiled dry - I have three commercial boilers (Not Midwest) awaiting repair where the schools to which they belong have melted the soft solder and the boiler has released steam or hot water (I suspect mistreatment!). No safety valve. All of these boilers that I've seen have had a screw in filler plug, but no safety valve - just plain dangerous!I know that the plastic steam line is supposed to blow off if the pressure rises too high, but there are two hazards with this - The first is when someone wires or clamps it in place to "Make a better secure job." , or else replaces it with soldered copper not realising the safety valve function.The second is that I know of one case in the USA where the tube blew off at the engine end, and whipped about, spraying boiling water and steam from the over filled boiler and a four year old got a face full. This was the same unit being used in its original application in a boat. A safety valve would have been safer. In the boat application if the tube blows off in the middle of the pond the boat stops and blows off the steam and water, and may lead to a cooked soldered boiler as in above. I would prefer three simple modifications - 1. Hard solder (Silver braze) the boiler. 2.Fit a safety valve and have a copper steam line. 3. Copper boiler. This would be slightly more expensive, but far safer and a better operating product.. Having said which, I do like the little project loco - Jim Gregg. At 12:15 AM 3/2/04 -0800, you wrote: Ken, I am Glad you enjoyed the pictures. We had a great day running engines. I get several inquiries about the Basic Project Engine site every month. There is no simple answer to your question. Honest differences of opinion exist on the subject of boiler construction. It is hard to dispute the 100-year-plus history of successful implementation of the principles used in Midwest's boiler design by companies such as Bing, Carrette, Marklin, Mamod, Wilesco, Jensen, etc. These companies have all successfully (and safely) used the same basic soft soldered, brass shell and/or flue design for LOW PRESSURE steam toys (i.e. locomotives, stationary engines, etc.). There are numerous examples of these engine and boiler systems in operation to this day (some in service for decades). However, some otherwise knowledgeable - and I believe, well intentioned - members of this list have gone on record stating that Midwest's boiler designs are unsafe. Perhaps one of them will grace us with a fully documented design that suits their safety ideals - that home builders could fabricate in their own shops. I know that reasonable persons will want to research this for themselves and that they will come to their own conclusions. Below, I have cut and pasted an excerpt from what has become my standard reply when people ask for the plans. Best Regards, Michael Martin >> I may return the Basic Project Engine pages to the web at a future date when I have time to add some sort of disclaimer and revamp some of the pages. In the mean time, I have left the chassis drawings available at: http://www.panyo.com/cad There you will find a 399KB MS Word document with 1:1 drawings of all the basic wood chassis parts.
was Steamup Pictures - now Basic Project Engine
Ken, I am Glad you enjoyed the pictures. We had a great day running engines. I get several inquiries about the Basic Project Engine site every month. There is no simple answer to your question. Honest differences of opinion exist on the subject of boiler construction. It is hard to dispute the 100-year-plus history of successful implementation of the principles used in Midwest's boiler design by companies such as Bing, Carrette, Marklin, Mamod, Wilesco, Jensen, etc. These companies have all successfully (and safely) used the same basic soft soldered, brass shell and/or flue design for LOW PRESSURE steam toys (i.e. locomotives, stationary engines, etc.). There are numerous examples of these engine and boiler systems in operation to this day (some in service for decades). However, some otherwise knowledgeable - and I believe, well intentioned - members of this list have gone on record stating that Midwest's boiler designs are unsafe. Perhaps one of them will grace us with a fully documented design that suits their safety ideals - that home builders could fabricate in their own shops. I know that reasonable persons will want to research this for themselves and that they will come to their own conclusions. Below, I have cut and pasted an excerpt from what has become my standard reply when people ask for the plans. Best Regards, Michael Martin >> I may return the Basic Project Engine pages to the web at a future date when I have time to add some sort of disclaimer and revamp some of the pages. In the mean time, I have left the chassis drawings available at: http://www.panyo.com/cad There you will find a 399KB MS Word document with 1:1 drawings of all the basic wood chassis parts. There are no instructions to go with it but it is probably pretty easy to follow the drawings. If not, feel free to ask if you run into a snag. None of the dimensions are critical - but they're all there. I will leave it up to the builder to decide what boiler and engine to use. There are many options available - from the do-it-yourself approach to complete units ready to run. The wheels are 1 1/4" diameter (not critical - except that they are large enough to allow the drive sprocket to clear the track - and small enough that they don't "bog down" the steam motor. If you use substantially larger wheels, you will need additional reduction in the gearing). The drivetrain parts (double reduction brass ladder chain) are comprised of the following: 1 ea. - 15 tooth Brass Sprocket - Stock Drive Products Part # A 6B 8-1915 (goes on axle) 2 ea. - 7 tooth Brass Sprocket - Stock Drive Products Part # A 6B 8-1907 (goes on engine and countershaft) 1 ea. - 24 tooth Brass Sprocket - Stock Drive Products Part # A 6B 8-1924 (goes on countershaft) 1 foot - Brass Ladder Chain - Stock Drive Products Part # A 6B 8-19 You can obtain them from the manufacturer, Stock Drive Products http://www.sdp-si.com/ , or from Sulphur Springs Steam Models http://www.sssmodels.com SSSM also offers a "completer kit" part # KIT-BPE that has all the following items at a reduced cost: BASIC PROJECT ENGINE (BAGRS PROJECT LOCO); Kit contains all the fasteners, ladder chain sprockets, metal stock, wheels and lubricator for the Basic Project Engine (2) 7 tooth ladder chain sprockets (1) 15 tooth ladder chain sprocket (1) 24 tooth ladder chain sprocket (2) feet of 19B brass ladder chain (1) #247 Roundhouse lubricator (1) 12" piece of 1/8" brass rod (1) 5/32" dia K&S brass tube (1) 3/16" dia K&S brass tube (1) 0.032" X 1/4" K&S brass strip (8) 2-56 X 1/2" brass model hex head screws (8) 2-56 model hex brass nuts (8) #2 brass washers (2) Sierra Valley Enterprises wheel sets (2) 2-56 X 3/8" machine screws I have no association with Sulphur Springs other than as a satisfied customer and I have advised them as to what parts to carry for finishing out the Basic Project Engine. The owners are dedicated to promoting the hobby and are a joy to do business with. I receive no compensation from them on any parts sold for this, or any other project. I have had the pleasure of seeing dozens of BPE's running at steamups all across the country. The enjoyment their builders derive from them is why I went to the trouble of making the plans available in the first place. >> -Original Message- On behalf of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mike, Thanks for the steamup pics What happened to the basic project engine pages that were on your site??? Ken Vogel Lafayette, CO
