Re: [Standards] XEP-0054 (vcard-temp) Issues

[Peter Saint-Andre]

On 10/27/11 3:19 PM, Bala Pitchandi wrote:
> I agree with you on xCard/XEP-0292. I would rather implement that
> than implementing XEP-0054 but like you said no one (*cough* Google
> *cough*) has implemented it yet.

To be fair, vCard4 is new. But we need to figure out how to bootstrap
implementations...

/psa

Re: [Standards] XEP-0054 (vcard-temp) Issues

[Bala Pitchandi]

I agree with you on xCard/XEP-0292. I would rather implement that than 
implementing XEP-0054 but like you said no one (*cough* Google *cough*) has 
implemented it yet.

-- Bala


-Original Message-
From: Peter Saint-Andre [mailto:stpe...@stpeter.im] 
Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2011 5:11 PM
To: XMPP Standards
Cc: Bala Pitchandi
Subject: Re: [Standards] XEP-0054 (vcard-temp) Issues

On 10/27/11 3:03 PM, Bala Pitchandi wrote:
> The implementation note (pasted below) does not say that VERSION 
> element is optional:
> 
> Some Jabber implementations add a 'version' attribute to the  
> element, with the value set at "2.0" or "3.0". The DTD is incorrect, 
> and the examples in draft-dawson-vcard-xml-dtd-01 clearly show that 
> version information is to be included by means of a 'version'
> attribute, not the  element as defined in the DTD. However, 
> to conform to draft-dawson-vcard-xml-dtd-01, the value should be 
> "3.0", not "2.0".

It's optional -- we assume 3.0 because that's what we inherited from the Dawson 
I-Ds. And read the history about this -- XEP-0054 is a bastard child, which is 
why we've defined XEP-0292 (but no implementations yet, AFAIK).

/psa

Re: [Standards] Subscribers List

[Kevin Smith]

On Thu, Oct 27, 2011 at 10:06 PM, Bala Pitchandi  wrote:
> So does that mean, a XMPP client implementation MUST add a presence 
> subscriber to its roster, if it wants to keep track of its "watchers"?

No  - the server will do it all for you, and the client can just fetch
its roster to see all the subscription states.

/K

>
> -- Bala
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: standards-boun...@xmpp.org [mailto:standards-boun...@xmpp.org] On 
> Behalf Of Dave Cridland
> Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2011 4:39 PM
> To: XMPP Standards; Kevin Smith
> Subject: Re: [Standards] Subscribers List
>
> On Thu Oct 27 21:35:09 2011, Bala Pitchandi wrote:
>> I think you misunderstood my question. A client is not required to add
>> every user who is a presence subscriber to its roster. For example, I
>> might have authorized Romeo to see my presence but not add him to my
>> roster. But later on, I would like to know who all have authorizations
>> to see my presence. Is there a way to do that in XMPP? I don't believe
>> there is.
>>
>>
> I think you've misunderstood what the roster is - it's not a simple 
> addressbook, the roster is the authority for who is subscribed to your 
> presence, and who you're subscribed to.
>
> So removing someone from the roster actually removes their subscription, and 
> accepting a subscription will place them into the roster if needs be.
>
> Dave.
> --
> Dave Cridland - mailto:d...@cridland.net - xmpp:d...@dave.cridland.net
>  - acap://acap.dave.cridland.net/byowner/user/dwd/bookmarks/
>  - http://dave.cridland.net/
> Infotrope Polymer - ACAP, IMAP, ESMTP, and Lemonade
>

Re: [Standards] Subscribers List

[Peter Saint-Andre]

On 10/27/11 3:09 PM, Dave Cridland wrote:
> On Thu Oct 27 22:06:59 2011, Bala Pitchandi wrote:
>> So does that mean, a XMPP client implementation MUST add a presence
>> subscriber to its roster, if it wants to keep track of its "watchers"?
>>
>>
> It's more magical than that.
> 
> If I send you a , the server adds you to my
> roster instantly.
> 
> If you respond with a , your server adds me
> to your roster, and my server updates your entry in my roster.
> 
> At no point do either of us need to directly manip[ulate our rosters -
> we'll simply be told about the changes.
> 
> In practise, many clients add an entry to the roster prior to asking for
> a subscription in order to set the name and group, but it's not needed.

Right, I neglected to describe the magic because it's all in RFC 6121
for anyone to read.

/psa

Re: [Standards] XEP-0054 (vcard-temp) Issues

[Peter Saint-Andre]

On 10/27/11 3:03 PM, Bala Pitchandi wrote:
> The implementation note (pasted below) does not say that VERSION
> element is optional:
> 
> Some Jabber implementations add a 'version' attribute to the 
> element, with the value set at "2.0" or "3.0". The DTD is incorrect,
> and the examples in draft-dawson-vcard-xml-dtd-01 clearly show that
> version information is to be included by means of a 'version'
> attribute, not the  element as defined in the DTD. However,
> to conform to draft-dawson-vcard-xml-dtd-01, the value should be
> "3.0", not "2.0".

It's optional -- we assume 3.0 because that's what we inherited from the
Dawson I-Ds. And read the history about this -- XEP-0054 is a bastard
child, which is why we've defined XEP-0292 (but no implementations yet,
AFAIK).

/psa

Re: [Standards] Subscribers List

[Dave Cridland]

On Thu Oct 27 22:06:59 2011, Bala Pitchandi wrote:
So does that mean, a XMPP client implementation MUST add a presence  
subscriber to its roster, if it wants to keep track of its  
"watchers"?




It's more magical than that.

If I send you a , the server adds you to  
my roster instantly.


If you respond with a , your server adds  
me to your roster, and my server updates your entry in my roster.


At no point do either of us need to directly manip[ulate our rosters  
- we'll simply be told about the changes.


In practise, many clients add an entry to the roster prior to asking  
for a subscription in order to set the name and group, but it's not  
needed.




-- Bala


-Original Message-
From: standards-boun...@xmpp.org  
[mailto:standards-boun...@xmpp.org] On Behalf Of Dave Cridland

Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2011 4:39 PM
To: XMPP Standards; Kevin Smith
Subject: Re: [Standards] Subscribers List

On Thu Oct 27 21:35:09 2011, Bala Pitchandi wrote:
> I think you misunderstood my question. A client is not required  
to add
> every user who is a presence subscriber to its roster. For  
example, I
> might have authorized Romeo to see my presence but not add him to  
my
> roster. But later on, I would like to know who all have  
authorizations
> to see my presence. Is there a way to do that in XMPP? I don't  
believe

> there is.
>
>
I think you've misunderstood what the roster is - it's not a simple  
addressbook, the roster is the authority for who is subscribed to  
your presence, and who you're subscribed to.


So removing someone from the roster actually removes their  
subscription, and accepting a subscription will place them into the  
roster if needs be.


Dave.
--
Dave Cridland - mailto:d...@cridland.net -  
xmpp:d...@dave.cridland.net

  - acap://acap.dave.cridland.net/byowner/user/dwd/bookmarks/
  - http://dave.cridland.net/
Infotrope Polymer - ACAP, IMAP, ESMTP, and Lemonade


--
Dave Cridland - mailto:d...@cridland.net - xmpp:d...@dave.cridland.net
 - acap://acap.dave.cridland.net/byowner/user/dwd/bookmarks/
 - http://dave.cridland.net/
Infotrope Polymer - ACAP, IMAP, ESMTP, and Lemonade

Re: [Standards] Subscribers List

[Peter Saint-Andre]

On 10/27/11 3:06 PM, Bala Pitchandi wrote:
> So does that mean, a XMPP client implementation MUST add a presence
> subscriber to its roster, if it wants to keep track of its
> "watchers"?

Yes. XMPP's presence and subscription model is different from SIP's. You
will need to change your way of thinking for it to make sense. :)

/psa

Re: [Standards] jabber:iq:roster Issue

[Bala Pitchandi]

OK. It would be helpful if someone would fix the schema in the repository.

-- Bala


-Original Message-
From: Peter Saint-Andre [mailto:stpe...@stpeter.im] 
Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2011 5:03 PM
To: XMPP Standards
Cc: Bala Pitchandi
Subject: Re: [Standards] jabber:iq:roster Issue

On 10/27/11 2:59 PM, Bala Pitchandi wrote:

> Which is correct?

RFC 6121 is correct.

Re: [Standards] Subscribers List

[Bala Pitchandi]

So does that mean, a XMPP client implementation MUST add a presence subscriber 
to its roster, if it wants to keep track of its "watchers"? 

-- Bala


-Original Message-
From: standards-boun...@xmpp.org [mailto:standards-boun...@xmpp.org] On Behalf 
Of Dave Cridland
Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2011 4:39 PM
To: XMPP Standards; Kevin Smith
Subject: Re: [Standards] Subscribers List

On Thu Oct 27 21:35:09 2011, Bala Pitchandi wrote:
> I think you misunderstood my question. A client is not required to add 
> every user who is a presence subscriber to its roster. For example, I 
> might have authorized Romeo to see my presence but not add him to my 
> roster. But later on, I would like to know who all have authorizations 
> to see my presence. Is there a way to do that in XMPP? I don't believe 
> there is.
> 
> 
I think you've misunderstood what the roster is - it's not a simple 
addressbook, the roster is the authority for who is subscribed to your 
presence, and who you're subscribed to.

So removing someone from the roster actually removes their subscription, and 
accepting a subscription will place them into the roster if needs be.

Dave.
--
Dave Cridland - mailto:d...@cridland.net - xmpp:d...@dave.cridland.net
  - acap://acap.dave.cridland.net/byowner/user/dwd/bookmarks/
  - http://dave.cridland.net/
Infotrope Polymer - ACAP, IMAP, ESMTP, and Lemonade

Re: [Standards] XEP-0054 (vcard-temp) Issues

[Bala Pitchandi]

The implementation note (pasted below) does not say that VERSION element is 
optional:

Some Jabber implementations add a 'version' attribute to the  element, 
with the value set at "2.0" or "3.0". The DTD is incorrect, and the examples in 
draft-dawson-vcard-xml-dtd-01 clearly show that version information is to be 
included by means of a 'version' attribute, not the  element as 
defined in the DTD. However, to conform to draft-dawson-vcard-xml-dtd-01, the 
value should be "3.0", not "2.0".

-- Bala


-Original Message-
From: standards-boun...@xmpp.org [mailto:standards-boun...@xmpp.org] On Behalf 
Of Peter Saint-Andre
Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2011 4:58 PM
To: XMPP Standards
Cc: Bala Pitchandi
Subject: Re: [Standards] XEP-0054 (vcard-temp) Issues

On 10/27/11 2:54 PM, Bala Pitchandi wrote:
> The DTD in section 9 
> mandates that the element vCard must contain VERSION, FN, N but the 
> examples in section 3.1 do not comply. Particularly the vCard 
> retrieval request (Section 3.1, example 1) has an empty vCard element.
> 
>  
> 
> 
>(VERSION, FN, N),
> 
>  
> 
> Maybe the intent was to add a “?” at the end to make the sequence of 
> Version, Full Name & Name optional, like:
> 
> 
>(VERSION, FN, N)*?*,
> 
>  
> 
> Even with this fix, examples other than the vCard retrieval request 
> need to be corrected to include the VERSION.

http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0054.html#impl

Re: [Standards] jabber:iq:roster Issue

[Peter Saint-Andre]

On 10/27/11 2:59 PM, Bala Pitchandi wrote:

> Which is correct?

RFC 6121 is correct.

[Standards] jabber:iq:roster Issue

[Bala Pitchandi]

Appendix D of RFC6121 specifies 
the ask attribute of an item in a jabber:iq:roster as below:



   
   
   



But the XSD in the Git repository defines 
the same as:









Which is correct?

-- Bala

Re: [Standards] XEP-0054 (vcard-temp) Issues

[Peter Saint-Andre]

On 10/27/11 2:54 PM, Bala Pitchandi wrote:
> The DTD in section 9 
> mandates that the element vCard must contain VERSION, FN, N but the
> examples in section 3.1 do not comply. Particularly the vCard retrieval
> request (Section 3.1, example 1) has an empty vCard element.
> 
>  
> 
> 
>(VERSION, FN, N),
> 
>  
> 
> Maybe the intent was to add a “?” at the end to make the sequence of
> Version, Full Name & Name optional, like:
> 
> 
>(VERSION, FN, N)*?*,
> 
>  
> 
> Even with this fix, examples other than the vCard retrieval request need
> to be corrected to include the VERSION.

http://xmpp.org/extensions/xep-0054.html#impl

[Standards] XEP-0054 (vcard-temp) Issues

[Bala Pitchandi]

The DTD in section 9 mandates 
that the element vCard must contain VERSION, FN, N but the examples in section 
3.1 do not comply. Particularly the vCard retrieval request (Section 3.1, 
example 1) has an empty vCard element.

Re: [Standards] Subscribers List

[Kevin Smith]

On Thu, Oct 27, 2011 at 9:35 PM, Bala Pitchandi  wrote:
> I think you misunderstood my question. A client is not required to add every 
> user who is a presence subscriber to its roster. For example, I might have 
> authorized Romeo to see my presence but not add him to my roster. But later 
> on, I would like to know who all have authorizations to see my presence. Is 
> there a way to do that in XMPP? I don't believe there is.

The client is not required to, but the server is. See
http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6121#page-36 and thereabouts.

/K

Re: [Standards] Subscribers List

[Dave Cridland]

On Thu Oct 27 21:35:09 2011, Bala Pitchandi wrote:
I think you misunderstood my question. A client is not required to  
add every user who is a presence subscriber to its roster. For  
example, I might have authorized Romeo to see my presence but not  
add him to my roster. But later on, I would like to know who all  
have authorizations to see my presence. Is there a way to do that  
in XMPP? I don't believe there is.



I think you've misunderstood what the roster is - it's not a simple  
addressbook, the roster is the authority for who is subscribed to  
your presence, and who you're subscribed to.


So removing someone from the roster actually removes their  
subscription, and accepting a subscription will place them into the  
roster if needs be.


Dave.
--
Dave Cridland - mailto:d...@cridland.net - xmpp:d...@dave.cridland.net
 - acap://acap.dave.cridland.net/byowner/user/dwd/bookmarks/
 - http://dave.cridland.net/
Infotrope Polymer - ACAP, IMAP, ESMTP, and Lemonade

Re: [Standards] Subscribers List

[Bala Pitchandi]

I think you misunderstood my question. A client is not required to add every 
user who is a presence subscriber to its roster. For example, I might have 
authorized Romeo to see my presence but not add him to my roster. But later on, 
I would like to know who all have authorizations to see my presence. Is there a 
way to do that in XMPP? I don't believe there is.

-- Bala


-Original Message-
From: standards-boun...@xmpp.org [mailto:standards-boun...@xmpp.org] On Behalf 
Of Kevin Smith
Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2011 4:28 PM
To: XMPP Standards
Subject: Re: [Standards] Subscribers List

On Thu, Oct 27, 2011 at 9:24 PM, Bala Pitchandi  wrote:
> Is there a way for a client to get a list of users who have active 
> subscriptions to its presence? Something along the lines of SIP 
> Watcher Information (See RFC3858).

This information is stored in the roster, which most clients fetch when they 
login. See RFC6121.

/K

Re: [Standards] Subscribers List

[Kevin Smith]

On Thu, Oct 27, 2011 at 9:24 PM, Bala Pitchandi  wrote:
> Is there a way for a client to get a list of users who have active
> subscriptions to its presence? Something along the lines of SIP Watcher
> Information (See RFC3858).

This information is stored in the roster, which most clients fetch
when they login. See RFC6121.

/K

[Standards] Subscribers List

[Bala Pitchandi]

Is there a way for a client to get a list of users who have active 
subscriptions to its presence? Something along the lines of SIP Watcher 
Information (See RFC3858).

-- Bala