coming out for JSF + Struts, was: Struts JSR?
Sun, 21 Mar 2004 13:49:45 -0500, Thomas L Roche (not speaking for IBM) summary: McClanahan should clearly state *in some major publication* * that JSF does/will not replace Struts * how JSF and Struts will likely tend to specialize, in future * how probable specializations will complement (and compete) in webapp development Ted Husted Sun, 21 Mar 2004 20:28:17 -0500 But I think either of us would rather be developing Struts than evangelizing Struts. This is not about evangelizing: it's about clarifying the relationship between 2 large parts of J2EE's future, and correcting some (apparently) false perceptions. Frankly, I'm perplexed why the propagation of the latter has gone unchecked for so long. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
coming out for JSF + Struts, was: Struts JSR?
NOT speaking for IBM
summary: McClanahan should clearly state *in some major publication*
* that JSF does/will not replace Struts
* how JSF and Struts will likely tend to specialize, in future
* how probable specializations will complement (and compete) in
webapp development
I.e. pretty much what he has already said in this list, but much more
visibly.
details:
Craig R. McClanahan Sat, 20 Mar 2004 20:57:04 -0800 (rearranged)
There is going to be tremendous support for JSF in the industry;
fortunately, we can continue to maintain and enhance Struts without
having to give that up (thanks to the integration library). Instead,
we can embrace it
The problem, as I see it, is how to make the industry understand that
JSF will also embrace Struts? (and not in the sense of embrace and
extend :-) More below, esp re SFIL.
My personal vision is that Struts developers will focus their energy
on the controller and model tiers, leveraging the existence of
standard (and not) technologies in the view tier.
Personally I agree strongly, and FWIW have advocated something very
similar (i.e. JSF both for view AND as a M$-killer for Model1 apps)
in local fora, e.g.
http://ns.cnconsulting.com/pipermail/juglist_trijug.org/2003q4/001106.html
ISTMT this also would also make a lotta sense for JSF, since (again,
it seems to _me_--my bosses may disagree)
* no one framework is ever gonna do all of Java MVC web application
development/execution the way that most IT folks want to do it
(since most folks can never agree on much of anything
specific :-)
* no one framework is ever gonna have all the resources/mindshare to
do all of Java MVC web application development/execution right
(presuming right could be agreed on), therefore specialization
makes sense
* MVC is a natural partition for such specialization
Unfortunately
* The JSF community seems to be putting out a competing message, not a
complementary one: JSF will replace Struts, or even JSF is a
better Struts.
· E.g. Geary said, flat out (not only is it in my notes, I believe
it was verbatim in a slide), Is JSF a replacement for Struts? Yes!
I challenged him, saying that while JSF 1.0 (with Tiles) can do
pretty much everything Struts 1.1 can, Struts 2.0 seemed to be
focused on doing things (e.g. struts-chain) that did not seem to be
in the JSF plan. At which point he backed off, but continued to
suggest that JSF should be favored for new-project development. (To
his credit, Geary also made clear that JSF and Tiles is a sweet
combination.)
· One also hears that JCP is more standard than the Apache
process, thus a more better target for development orgs. (Typically
the Apache process is also deprecated by association with the
unfortunate Struts 1.0--1.1 delays.) A popular variation asserts
that JSF will eventually become part of the J2EE spec, while Struts
never will.
* The JSF replaces Struts line has traction. I have heard it from
consultants (and not just Geary), ISVs, and from ... highly-placed
persons who I believe should know better :-(
* The JSF replaces Struts line has practical impact (which demands
a substantial, visible response--more on that farther below)
· Development organizations have limited budgets. Managers of
development orgs always want to pick _the_ winner (not just a
winner) if they can. There are of course a lotta webapps still to
be written, and still a LOT of Model1 and Model1.5 webapps out
there, many of which folks wanna make more MVC. I suspect managers
of their development groups will be most receptive to the JSF (and
not Struts) for new project development line.
· Java tool developers face an esp crowded field of Java MVC web
apps. We are gonna _hafta_ tool JSF, and we want to--it's nicely
designed, and we wanna target the {Model1, departmental developer,
SMB, ASP.NET} space. But when managers of Java tool developers hear
that JSF will bury Struts, and hear about their budgets, they are
gonna wanna say things like, going forward we expect to actively
tool JSF and to sunset Struts.
Note that while I expect tool adoption/quality to be crucial for JSF
(which very much seems built to tool), I do not consider it quite
so important for Struts. That being said, good tools help, and I am
very proud of my group's Struts tools, such as our web diagram
editor. (FWIW I expect to be equally proud of our JSF tools in the
very near future, and to continue to improve and extend our Struts
support.)
So ... what to do about this? For starters, we can advocate that
* JSF is NOT gonna make Struts obsolete
* JSF AND Struts {is, will be} a sweet combination
but unfortunately I suspect that will not be enough: something's gotta
come from the top, by which I mean (not entirely in jest)
McClanahan.
Steve Raeburn Sat, 20 Mar 2004 11:40:45 -0800 (rearranged)
As the creator of Struts and spec lead for JSF, I think Craig is in
a unique position to understand
OT: Struts JSR?
David Geary spoke on JSF at trijug.org M 15 Mar 04. My notes of his remarks include - Is JSF a replacement for Struts? Yes! - JSF is a standard. Struts will never be a standard. which I believe to be pretty-nearly-direct quotes. I'm assuming he really meant + JSF 1.0 can do pretty much everything Struts 1.1 can. + JSF is a JSR, and Struts will never be a JSR. but I'm wondering about that last statement. What prevents Struts from undergoing the JCP? Are there circumstances under which you might consider this? - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Struts tools, re: What's next for Struts?
Ted Husted Sun, 08 Jun 2003 09:18:27 -0400 But the Struts Community has been shipping, shipping, shipping. For example, Don Brown is shipping extensions for using Struts with Cocoon and the Bean Scripting Framework, and as of today, Wildcard Actions. Mathias just released an update to his very useful workflow extension. James keeps bringing out Console after Console. and, FWIW http://www.infoworld.com/article/03/06/06/23TCwsed_1.html?s=tc [WebSphere Studio Enterprise Developer 5.0] nicely implements the open source Struts framework. Enterprise developers creating Web applications will find working with the Struts model, view, and controller paradigm a breeze. woohoo/ Note that the reviewer mentions that she [modified] an existing Cobol sales application to collect a greater amount of demographic data and tried working with some PL/1 code I had on hand and achieved equal success so perhaps we will succeed in converting the dinosaurs to Struts :-) - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: new variation on old question
Tom Roche Mon, 24 Feb 2003 23:29:33 -0500 I would appreciate your _opinions_ (which will NOT be held against you in a court of law!) on the odds that 1.1 final will ship on or before F 28 Mar 03. David Graham Mon, 24 Feb 2003 22:08:59 -0700 Not good. There are 7 open bug reports to deal with and I'd like to give people a bit more time to test their apps on the RCs. Thanks! All I wanted was a gut feel ... _not_ another lecture on The Apache Way :-P - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
new variation on old question
I am NOT gonna ask, when do youse think 1.1 final will release, because I believe I know the answer. (Something like, when it's @$#%^*! ready! :-) But I would appreciate your _opinions_ (which will NOT be held against you in a court of law!) on the odds that 1.1 final will ship on or before F 28 Mar 03. (Just a date that, umm, some manager hit when s/he threw a dart at a calendar :-) - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Struts Tools
David Graham [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tue, 04 Feb 2003 15:04:26 IBM's Websphere Studio Application Developer (WSAD) includes support for generating webapps with Struts. Actually, our Struts Tools are in Site Developer (WSSD), which is lots cheaper than WSAD. (But WSAD adds EJB tooling.) The only area Java IDEs are weak in is GUI building. Eclipse is the best IDE I have ever used for any language but it doesn't do GUI building because the vast majority of java is server side. Nevertheless, folks are writing them: see recent long threads on [EMAIL PROTECTED] with names like SWT History and Design Decisions and From Swing to SWT. You might wanna look @ http://dev.eclipse.org/mhonarc/lists/platform-swt-dev/maillist.html http://sweet-swt.sf.net/ and the Conga folks are (thinking about?) porting to Eclipse http://opendoors.com/html/conga.htm - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[PATCH] Bug 15187: add blurb to tools.xml
[PATCH] Bug 15187: add blurb to tools.xml WebSphere Studio's Struts tooling, currently available in Tech Preview for WSED customers, nears General Availability for WSSD (and up): the downloadable distros and CD images have gone to manufacturing. So please apply our patch (attached wsBlurb.txt). TIA, Tom Roche [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- tools.xml.orig 2002-12-09 12:10:42.0 -0500 +++ tools.xml 2002-12-09 12:58:20.0 -0500 @@ -11,6 +11,7 @@ section name=Integrated Development Environments pa href=http://www.synthis.com/products/adalon/overview.jsp;bAdalon/b/a - Adalon is a next generation functional design tool that fills the gaps left by today's market leading software design products. /p +pStruts Tools in ba href=http://www.ibm.com/software/ad/;IBM WebSphere +Studio/a/b - This full-featured environment for rapid Struts application +development provides specialized and graphical editors, viewers, and wizards enabling +you to build and manipulate Struts artifacts including JSPs, Java classes, +configuration files and mappings, even entire projects, with Struts-specific +validation./p /section section name=IDE Plugins (Eclipse) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Struts tooling in WS*D5, was: About JBuilder 8 / WSED 5 ... Struts support
Emmanuel Boudrant [EMAIL PROTECTED] Wed, 27 Nov 2002 21:25:39 +0100 JBuilder 8, available soon will provide some Struts wizard, I've got the beta so I check thisand what my surprise ! ... JBuilder 8 provide Struts support only for Struts 1.0, the wizard look like Easy Struts wizard (without the bugs;) Wizard are only Action and ActionForm. The Struts config editor isn't powerfull and user-friendly than Struts Console. Same thing for IBM WSED 5...! Wrong! First off, Struts Tooling has now been moved to WSSD (the lowest/cheapest part of the payware stack). More importantly, * Our SCE rocks, but not quite as hard as ... * Our Web Diagram Editor allows you to visually build Struts (1.0 *and* 1.1) modules and apps, using ... * Wizards for Action* plus projects, modules (in 1.1 projects), Struts-taglib-using JSPs (with visual editing), and those web diagrams. * Alternatively, build from the ground up using a cheat sheet. (Think meta-wizard.) * Struts-aware Web Structure View * Struts-specific validation David Graham á ecrit: Of course they only support 1.0 because that's the only released version. If you were making a multi-million dollar IDE would you include beta software? You would if it's Struts :-) David Graham [EMAIL PROTECTED] on Wed, 27 Nov 2002 13:38:03 Yes, a release is coming soon. Now what is the definition of soon WSED customers already have Tech Preview http://www7b.boulder.ibm.com/wsdd/downloads/struts=5Ftools.html General availability will be that plus more 1.1 functionality. Now, if I can only get marketing to tell me where I can link to, in order to put a blurb on http://jakarta.apache.org/struts/resources/guis.html :-( -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[docs] how to get into Struts Resources?
WebSphere Studio has Struts tooling, so we'd like to put a link-and-a-blurb on http://jakarta.apache.org/struts/resources/guis.html How should we do this? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:struts-dev-unsubscribe;jakarta.apache.org For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:struts-dev-help;jakarta.apache.org
