RE: Struts tools, re: What's next for Struts?
so perhaps we will succeed in converting the dinosaurs to Struts :-) It's already happening. I'm teaching corporate mainframe programmers how to move into the Java world using WebSphere Studio Application Developer (WSAD) for serious companies in/near Philadelphia and Pittsburgh. In most cases upper management has identified Java as a (major) technology to use for their real business applications going forward and are taking steps to get their staffs trained. Same here. My employer (GTECH Corp, we run the lottery systems for most of the US states) has chosen J2EE and Struts as the building blocks for our next generation systems, especially the systems that have end-user interfaces. Java-heads like me are training other staff members in Java, Struts, J2EE and everything else that's involved. The use of frameworks such as Struts is crucial in making this sort of transition successful. -TPP - This email may contain confidential and privileged material for the sole use of the intended recipient(s). Any review, use, retention, distribution or disclosure by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient (or authorized to receive for the recipient), please contact the sender by reply email and delete all copies of this message. Also, email is susceptible to data corruption, interception, tampering, unauthorized amendment and viruses. We only send and receive emails on the basis that we are not liable for any such corruption, interception, tampering, amendment or viruses or any consequence thereof. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Struts tools, re: What's next for Struts?
At 07:27 PM 6/9/2003, you wrote: Ted Husted Sun, 08 Jun 2003 09:18:27 -0400 But the Struts Community has been shipping, shipping, shipping. snip so perhaps we will succeed in converting the dinosaurs to Struts :-) It's already happening. I'm teaching corporate mainframe programmers how to move into the Java world using WebSphere Studio Application Developer (WSAD) for serious companies in/near Philadelphia and Pittsburgh. In most cases upper management has identified Java as a (major) technology to use for their real business applications going forward and are taking steps to get their staffs trained. Struts is an integral part to this movement, and fits in well with these peoples' view of the world; they usually don't have too much trouble with Struts if they're not thrown cold into the middle of a struts-config. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What's next for Struts?
I've spent some time fixing (recoding?) a proprietary framework which worked exactly like JSF's component driven nature (In fact, I wrote their grid control. Craig- all you had to do was ask :P ). Let me say it has some very clear appeal to the developer, even though that implementation was very agricultrual (ugly when you get close, but gets the job done). Fact is, working with components can be great, *really* great. And to have it as a standard as such in the form of JSF means it's definitely worth an honest look. Even with our framework as it was, overall it was a joy to use, and quickly assembled a complex app that's been out there and running since late last year. Honestly, some aspects of working with components will just have you beside yourself with how cool it is. But the interface isn't really where Struts' value-add is. Other developers have shared the same opinion. So to this, Struts should look at integrating as well as it can to the JSF etc. For the future of Struts, IMHO, it seems it may be taking a step back off the front line to bring in more value-adds to application composition and management of the interface tier. It possibly (opionally?), wont be the first line of interaction, but the engine that drives the next layer. To that end, many people see persistence as the next layer after the interface (like those that use the sql jsp tags), to them it will replace Struts. For most, it will be another handy layer of abstraction. As for specifics... it's anyone's guess. Thing is though, innovation will happen in a project like Struts or [insert any other open source project] before it will happen in some specification consortium. So to take your eye off the OSS space in this area would be as dangerous as not having at least a play with JSF's component driven initiative. The JSF integration library is propbably a good initial way to keep your foot on either side of the fence. Arron. On Sat, 7 Jun 2003, Bill Johnson wrote: Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2003 13:39:13 -0700 (PDT) From: Bill Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Struts Developers List [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Struts Developers List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: What's next for Struts? Thanks for passing that on. I have read it now. So I can infer that Struts will likely become an implementation of JSF. I don't know the basis for you inferring that this is likely -- but it is certainly feasible, and might very well be a very great idea -- but that's up to the Struts developer community to decide. That makes total sense given its popularity. It seems though that there will be a fair amount of overlap and that the version of Struts that implements the JSF spec will be quite different from the Struts we know today. Not necessarily. It's quite clear already that you can treat JavaServer Faces as a rendering library nad continue to use existing Struts based application design architectures. Enabling this was the whole point of my developing the Struts-Faces integration library. http://jakarta.apache.org/builds/jakarta-struts/release/struts-faces/ It also infers that companies like BEA and IBM will have implementations of JSF Having more than one implementation of JavaServer Faces in the world seems pretty much assured already. Next week, being JavaOne week, seems like a likely candidate for announcements in this regard :-). But you'll have to ask individual companies for their own plans regarding JavaServer Faces. and that JSF will be a requirement of the J2EE spec. Can anyone confirm that JSF will be a requirement of the J2EE spec for app server vendors, etc? JavaServer Faces is *not* part of the J2EE 1.4 specification. Whether it will or will not be part of of J2EE 1.5 depends on what the expert group for J2EE 1.5's JSR decides to do. Nobody knows at this point. Ted, you're one of the better known Struts people right? What do you think of JSF? For that matter, what do all of the Struts devs think of JSF? I'm not Ted, but I am the original developer of the Struts Framework. As it happens, part of my day job is to be the co-spec-lead for JavaServer Faces, so I have more than a little bit to do with how that turns out :-). Trust me ... Struts oriented developers and users *definitely* need to pay attention to what is going on with JavaServer Faces. I think there should be more discussion on this topic as I'm sure its on the minds of many more people than those at my company. I've CCed user list for that input. By the way, thanks for creating a great software framework! Regards, Bill Craig McClanahan - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For
Struts tools, re: What's next for Struts?
Ted Husted Sun, 08 Jun 2003 09:18:27 -0400 But the Struts Community has been shipping, shipping, shipping. For example, Don Brown is shipping extensions for using Struts with Cocoon and the Bean Scripting Framework, and as of today, Wildcard Actions. Mathias just released an update to his very useful workflow extension. James keeps bringing out Console after Console. and, FWIW http://www.infoworld.com/article/03/06/06/23TCwsed_1.html?s=tc [WebSphere Studio Enterprise Developer 5.0] nicely implements the open source Struts framework. Enterprise developers creating Web applications will find working with the Struts model, view, and controller paradigm a breeze. woohoo/ Note that the reviewer mentions that she [modified] an existing Cobol sales application to collect a greater amount of demographic data and tried working with some PL/1 code I had on hand and achieved equal success so perhaps we will succeed in converting the dinosaurs to Struts :-) - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What's next for Struts?
Craig R. McClanahan wrote: No, Struts is definitely not dead. =:) Those rumors have been greatly exaggerated! The Struts Committers have been a bit busy the last year or so with parceling Struts into Commons components and all. But the Struts Community has been shipping, shipping, shipping. For example, Don Brown is shipping extensions for using Struts with Cocoon and the Bean Scripting Framework, and as of today, Wildcard Actions. Mathias just released an update to his very useful workflow extension. James keeps bringing out Console after Console. Just to name a few. (Need to get that Resource page updated before final ships!) And of course, there are the long-standing XLST, Velocity, SSL, and JUnit extension for Struts, doclet extensions for Struts, database extension for Struts, and surely many things I haven't heard of yet! And, as Craig pointed out, Struts is not the only place where people are developing MVC frameworks. WebWorks demonstrated the usefulness of a unified Controller (or Action) objects. Other frameworks like Maverick and JPublish are showing us how very different approaches to handling actions (as well as screens) can all be used within the same framework. The point is that no matter how good JSF will be, or how good Struts is now, there will always be more dreamed of than what we happen to stuff in our distributions! There will always be gaps where open-source developers, like us, can jump in and start sharing our solutions. This is true not only of Java, but of any platform. For example, most of us know that .NET lacks many of the high-level tools we all use and love. OSS, like nature, abhors a vacuum. So, OSS volunteers have been busily porting many of our favorite tools to the dark side. Packages like Maverick, Velocity, and Log4*, again to name a few, are all now making life easier for our .NET brethen. OSS works because places like the ASF and SourceForge *let* it work. And it works everywhere, even on vendor strangle-hold platforms like .NET. Over the past three years, the 40+ developers who have directly contributed to Struts -- and the thousands of others who helping out on Bugzilla, and the list, and the other support forums -- have proven (once again) that community-supported development does work, and that we'd all be poorer without it! New specifications, like JSF, just give us fertile new ground where we can continue to do what we do best -- share the wealth! Some things never change =:) -Ted. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: What's next for Struts?
Yep, I'm definitely not abandoning Struts either. I am in the middle of some nice new features for Struts Console. Stay tuned. -James http://www.jamesholmes.com/struts/ -Original Message- From: Ted Husted [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, June 08, 2003 8:18 AM To: Struts Developers List Subject: Re: What's next for Struts? Craig R. McClanahan wrote: No, Struts is definitely not dead. =:) Those rumors have been greatly exaggerated! The Struts Committers have been a bit busy the last year or so with parceling Struts into Commons components and all. But the Struts Community has been shipping, shipping, shipping. For example, Don Brown is shipping extensions for using Struts with Cocoon and the Bean Scripting Framework, and as of today, Wildcard Actions. Mathias just released an update to his very useful workflow extension. James keeps bringing out Console after Console. Just to name a few. (Need to get that Resource page updated before final ships!) And of course, there are the long-standing XLST, Velocity, SSL, and JUnit extension for Struts, doclet extensions for Struts, database extension for Struts, and surely many things I haven't heard of yet! And, as Craig pointed out, Struts is not the only place where people are developing MVC frameworks. WebWorks demonstrated the usefulness of a unified Controller (or Action) objects. Other frameworks like Maverick and JPublish are showing us how very different approaches to handling actions (as well as screens) can all be used within the same framework. The point is that no matter how good JSF will be, or how good Struts is now, there will always be more dreamed of than what we happen to stuff in our distributions! There will always be gaps where open-source developers, like us, can jump in and start sharing our solutions. This is true not only of Java, but of any platform. For example, most of us know that .NET lacks many of the high-level tools we all use and love. OSS, like nature, abhors a vacuum. So, OSS volunteers have been busily porting many of our favorite tools to the dark side. Packages like Maverick, Velocity, and Log4*, again to name a few, are all now making life easier for our .NET brethen. OSS works because places like the ASF and SourceForge *let* it work. And it works everywhere, even on vendor strangle-hold platforms like .NET. Over the past three years, the 40+ developers who have directly contributed to Struts -- and the thousands of others who helping out on Bugzilla, and the list, and the other support forums -- have proven (once again) that community-supported development does work, and that we'd all be poorer without it! New specifications, like JSF, just give us fertile new ground where we can continue to do what we do best -- share the wealth! Some things never change =:) -Ted. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What's next for Struts?
On Sat, 7 Jun 2003, Bill Johnson wrote: Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2003 13:39:13 -0700 (PDT) From: Bill Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Struts Developers List [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Struts Developers List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: What's next for Struts? Thanks for passing that on. I have read it now. So I can infer that Struts will likely become an implementation of JSF. I don't know the basis for you inferring that this is likely -- but it is certainly feasible, and might very well be a very great idea -- but that's up to the Struts developer community to decide. That makes total sense given its popularity. It seems though that there will be a fair amount of overlap and that the version of Struts that implements the JSF spec will be quite different from the Struts we know today. Not necessarily. It's quite clear already that you can treat JavaServer Faces as a rendering library nad continue to use existing Struts based application design architectures. Enabling this was the whole point of my developing the Struts-Faces integration library. http://jakarta.apache.org/builds/jakarta-struts/release/struts-faces/ It also infers that companies like BEA and IBM will have implementations of JSF Having more than one implementation of JavaServer Faces in the world seems pretty much assured already. Next week, being JavaOne week, seems like a likely candidate for announcements in this regard :-). But you'll have to ask individual companies for their own plans regarding JavaServer Faces. and that JSF will be a requirement of the J2EE spec. Can anyone confirm that JSF will be a requirement of the J2EE spec for app server vendors, etc? JavaServer Faces is *not* part of the J2EE 1.4 specification. Whether it will or will not be part of of J2EE 1.5 depends on what the expert group for J2EE 1.5's JSR decides to do. Nobody knows at this point. Ted, you're one of the better known Struts people right? What do you think of JSF? For that matter, what do all of the Struts devs think of JSF? I'm not Ted, but I am the original developer of the Struts Framework. As it happens, part of my day job is to be the co-spec-lead for JavaServer Faces, so I have more than a little bit to do with how that turns out :-). Trust me ... Struts oriented developers and users *definitely* need to pay attention to what is going on with JavaServer Faces. I think there should be more discussion on this topic as I'm sure its on the minds of many more people than those at my company. I've CCed user list for that input. By the way, thanks for creating a great software framework! Regards, Bill Craig McClanahan - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What's next for Struts?
To be honest, I haven't had much time to actually use JSF in a test app. I have read about it and looked at how it works and submitted some feedback to Craig and the rest of the JSF team. I think it's great that there is now a standard view layer toolkit. I intend to replace the Struts html taglibs in my own apps when JSF goes final (I've already replaced the other Struts tags with JSTL). I am a big proponent of using standard technologies wherever possible. This leads to much faster app development because we don't have to learn new frameworks and support is built into IDEs. I'm also a proponent of OSS projects because they push the standards to be even better (Struts has obviously made a big impact on JSTL and JSF). The JSTL, JSF, and Struts toolkits have made building Java webapps extremely easy without giving up maintainability. Struts is by no means dead because the JSF doesn't have all the functionality that Struts supports. David Thanks for passing that on. I have read it now. So I can infer that Struts will likely become an implementation of JSF. That makes total sense given its popularity. It seems though that there will be a fair amount of overlap and that the version of Struts that implements the JSF spec will be quite different from the Struts we know today. It also infers that companies like BEA and IBM will have implementations of JSF and that JSF will be a requirement of the J2EE spec. Can anyone confirm that JSF will be a requirement of the J2EE spec for app server vendors, etc? Ted, you're one of the better known Struts people right? What do you think of JSF? For that matter, what do all of the Struts devs think of JSF? I think there should be more discussion on this topic as I'm sure its on the minds of many more people than those at my company. I've CCed user list for that input. By the way, thanks for creating a great software framework! Regards, Bill --- Ted Husted [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Have you read this, Bill? http://nagoya.apache.org/wiki/apachewiki.cgi?StrutsMoreAboutJSF Bill Johnson wrote: But isn't JSF just a spec? So couldn't Struts become the reference implementation for JSF, like Tomcat? I'm hoping Sun or one of the Struts committers will stand up and give all of us Struts users some more guidance. I know my company is definitely curious to know where things are headed so we can plan accordingly. It would be great if JSF came with all the promised components and tools. I can't wait. Regards, Bill --- Ted Husted [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Not every Java developer is willing to simply accept whatever technology Sun or the JCP brings out. If we were, there wouldn't be Velocity and Tapestry and Turbine and Maverick and WebWorks and JPublish, and quite a few others. But, regardless of what happens next, just as dinosaurs live on as the birds outside my window, Struts will always live on as the many components we have placed in the Commons. -Ted. Bill Johnson wrote: Well, best I can tell EA4 tells the story. I just read some stuff online today that says this could very likely be the end to Struts as we know it. EA4 has much of what Struts has and it will be a standard from Sun. Now theres a faces-config.xml very similar to struts-config.xml, but with all the validation and message resources wrapped into one. Is it possible that Struts will become the JSF reference implementation kind of like Tomcat for Servlets and JSPs. That makes sense to me. Regards, Bill - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). http://calendar.yahoo.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Ted Husted, Struts in Action http://husted.com/struts/book.html - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). http://calendar.yahoo.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] _ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL
