What's next for Struts?

[Bill Johnson]

Thanks for passing that on.  I have read it now.  So I
can infer that Struts will likely become an
implementation of JSF.  That makes total sense given
its popularity.  It seems though that there will be a
fair amount of overlap and that the version of Struts
that implements the JSF spec will be quite different
from the Struts we know today.

It also infers that companies like BEA and IBM will
have implementations of JSF and that JSF will be a
requirement of the J2EE spec.  Can anyone confirm that
JSF will be a requirement of the J2EE spec for app
server vendors, etc?

Ted, you're one of the better known Struts people
right?  What do you think of JSF?  For that matter,
what do all of the Struts devs think of JSF?

I think there should be more discussion on this topic
as I'm sure its on the minds of many more people than
those at my company.  I've CCed user list for that
input.

By the way, thanks for creating a great software
framework!

Regards,

Bill




--- Ted Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Have you read this, Bill?
> 
>
http://nagoya.apache.org/wiki/apachewiki.cgi?StrutsMoreAboutJSF
> 
> Bill Johnson wrote:
> > But isn't JSF just a spec?  So couldn't Struts
> become
> > the reference implementation for JSF, like Tomcat?
> > 
> > I'm hoping Sun or one of the Struts committers
> will
> > stand up and give all of us Struts users some more
> > guidance. I know my company is definitely curious
> to
> > know where things are headed so we can plan
> > accordingly.  It would be great if JSF came with
> all
> > the promised components and tools.
> > 
> > I can't wait.
> > 
> > Regards,
> > 
> > Bill
> > 
> > 
> > --- Ted Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > 
> >>Not every Java developer is willing to simply
> accept
> >>whatever technology 
> >>Sun or the JCP brings out.
> >>
> >>If we were, there wouldn't be Velocity and
> Tapestry
> >>and Turbine and 
> >>Maverick and WebWorks and JPublish, and quite a
> few
> >>others.
> >>
> >>But, regardless of what happens next, just as
> >>dinosaurs live on as the 
> >>birds outside my window, Struts will always live
> on
> >>as the many 
> >>components we have placed in the Commons.
> >>
> >>-Ted.
> >>
> >>Bill Johnson wrote:
> >>
> >>>Well, best I can tell EA4 tells the story.  I
> just
> >>>read some stuff online today that says this could
> >>
> >>very
> >>
> >>>likely be the end to Struts as we know it.  EA4
> >>
> >>has
> >>
> >>>much of what Struts has and it will be a standard
> >>
> >>from
> >>
> >>>Sun.  Now theres a faces-config.xml very similar
> >>
> >>to
> >>
> >>>struts-config.xml, but with all the validation
> and
> >>>message resources wrapped into one.
> >>>
> >>>Is it possible that Struts will become the JSF
> >>>reference implementation kind of like Tomcat for
> >>>Servlets and JSPs.  That makes sense to me.
> >>>
> >>>Regards,
> >>>
> >>>Bill
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
>
-
> > 
> >>To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> >>[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >>For additional commands, e-mail:
> >>[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >>
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > __
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync
> to Outlook(TM).
> > http://calendar.yahoo.com
> > 
> >
>
-
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > For additional commands, e-mail:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Ted Husted,
> Struts in Action
> 
> 
> 
> 
>
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> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> For additional commands, e-mail:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 


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Re: What's next for Struts?

[David Graham]

To be honest, I haven't had much time to actually use JSF in a test app.  I 
have read about it and looked at how it works and submitted some feedback to 
Craig and the rest of the JSF team.  I think it's great that there is now a 
standard view layer toolkit.   I intend to replace the Struts html taglibs 
in my own apps when JSF goes final (I've already replaced the other Struts 
tags with JSTL).

I am a big proponent of using standard technologies wherever possible.  This 
leads to much faster app development because we don't have to learn new 
frameworks and support is built into IDEs.  I'm also a proponent of OSS 
projects because they push the standards to be even better (Struts has 
obviously made a big impact on JSTL and JSF).  The JSTL, JSF, and Struts 
toolkits have made building Java webapps extremely easy without  giving up 
maintainability.

Struts is by no means dead because the JSF doesn't have all the 
functionality that Struts supports.

David

Thanks for passing that on.  I have read it now.  So I
can infer that Struts will likely become an
implementation of JSF.  That makes total sense given
its popularity.  It seems though that there will be a
fair amount of overlap and that the version of Struts
that implements the JSF spec will be quite different
from the Struts we know today.
It also infers that companies like BEA and IBM will
have implementations of JSF and that JSF will be a
requirement of the J2EE spec.  Can anyone confirm that
JSF will be a requirement of the J2EE spec for app
server vendors, etc?
Ted, you're one of the better known Struts people
right?  What do you think of JSF?  For that matter,
what do all of the Struts devs think of JSF?
I think there should be more discussion on this topic
as I'm sure its on the minds of many more people than
those at my company.  I've CCed user list for that
input.
By the way, thanks for creating a great software
framework!
Regards,

Bill



--- Ted Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Have you read this, Bill?
>
>
http://nagoya.apache.org/wiki/apachewiki.cgi?StrutsMoreAboutJSF
>
> Bill Johnson wrote:
> > But isn't JSF just a spec?  So couldn't Struts
> become
> > the reference implementation for JSF, like Tomcat?
> >
> > I'm hoping Sun or one of the Struts committers
> will
> > stand up and give all of us Struts users some more
> > guidance. I know my company is definitely curious
> to
> > know where things are headed so we can plan
> > accordingly.  It would be great if JSF came with
> all
> > the promised components and tools.
> >
> > I can't wait.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Bill
> >
> >
> > --- Ted Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> >>Not every Java developer is willing to simply
> accept
> >>whatever technology
> >>Sun or the JCP brings out.
> >>
> >>If we were, there wouldn't be Velocity and
> Tapestry
> >>and Turbine and
> >>Maverick and WebWorks and JPublish, and quite a
> few
> >>others.
> >>
> >>But, regardless of what happens next, just as
> >>dinosaurs live on as the
> >>birds outside my window, Struts will always live
> on
> >>as the many
> >>components we have placed in the Commons.
> >>
> >>-Ted.
> >>
> >>Bill Johnson wrote:
> >>
> >>>Well, best I can tell EA4 tells the story.  I
> just
> >>>read some stuff online today that says this could
> >>
> >>very
> >>
> >>>likely be the end to Struts as we know it.  EA4
> >>
> >>has
> >>
> >>>much of what Struts has and it will be a standard
> >>
> >>from
> >>
> >>>Sun.  Now theres a faces-config.xml very similar
> >>
> >>to
> >>
> >>>struts-config.xml, but with all the validation
> and
> >>>message resources wrapped into one.
> >>>
> >>>Is it possible that Struts will become the JSF
> >>>reference implementation kind of like Tomcat for
> >>>Servlets and JSPs.  That makes sense to me.
> >>>
> >>>Regards,
> >>>
> >>>Bill
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
>
-
> >
> >>To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> >>[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >>For additional commands, e-mail:
> >>[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > __
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync
> to Outlook(TM).
> > http://calendar.yahoo.com
> >
> >
>
-
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > For additional commands, e-mail:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Ted Husted,
> Struts in Action
> 
>
>
>
>
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> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> For additional commands, e-mail:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
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Re: What's next for Struts?

[Craig R. McClanahan]

On Sat, 7 Jun 2003, David Graham wrote:

> Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2003 17:30:36 -0600
> From: David Graham <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Reply-To: Struts Developers List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: What's next for Struts?
>
> To be honest, I haven't had much time to actually use JSF in a test app.  I
> have read about it and looked at how it works and submitted some feedback to
> Craig and the rest of the JSF team.  I think it's great that there is now a
> standard view layer toolkit.   I intend to replace the Struts html taglibs
> in my own apps when JSF goes final (I've already replaced the other Struts
> tags with JSTL).
>

That's a pretty smart idea (of course, you can't do it for production apps
until JavaServer Faces 1.0 goes final, which won't be for a while yet, but
it's important to go through the learning experience now ...).

In the mean time, I suggest that Struts developers complete an experiment
I finished just last week -- convert struts-example to be a pure JSF based
application.  There is still an important acknowledged hole in JSF (we
don't have a DataGrid component yet, so you need some sort of dispatching
servlet to deal with the "create subscription", "edit subscription", and
"delete subscription" links off of the registration.jsp page -- but I can
guarantee you that's going to get fixed, which will also deal with a lot
of general master-detail requirements that people have.

The results are pretty sobering.  With the EA4 release of JavaServer
Faces, you can now *easily* create a "business object bean" (what
Microsoft calls a code-behind class) that is essentially (in Struts terms)
a form bean plus an action, which is instantiated and configured on demand
(i.e. you can put it in request scope or session scope).  This is also
similar in spirit to the WebWorks approach to what we call Actions, which
(as I have acknowledged before) I would have implemented in Struts if I'd
thought of it before Rickard did.

Coupled with the new navigation rules capabilities, it is very easy to
achieve the same sorts of MVC-oriented separation of concerns that we are
so proud of supporting in Struts.  That means that we, the Struts
developer community, have our work cut out for us on *future* versions of
Struts, in order to provide value above and beyond what anyone who
implements the standard APIs will be able to provide out of the box.

The "bean" and "logic" tag libraries that originated in Struts had a
*hugely* positive impact on the evolution of JSTL 1.0.  In particular, the
existence of the expression language is, in no small measure, due to my
insistance that no JSTL library would be of much use to application
developers familiar with Struts unless it provided a more powerful
expression evaluation capability than what Struts already had :-).

The result?  Not only did JSTL 1.0 create a very powerful and useful
expression language syntax, it got adopted into JSP 2.0 so you will now be
able to use it *everywhere* in a page -- not just in the attribute values
of particular tags that know what to do.  That's a powerful testament to
the influence that Struts has had on web tier Java technologies.

Now, the same thing is happening with the "html" tag library, and the
emergence of UI oriented tags (JavaServer Faces is very much more agnostic
about the actual markup language than Struts has ever been, but the
standard renderkit that comes with Faces is still HTML oriented).  Again,
we set the bar pretty high -- to succeed, any UI framework needs to deal
with all the issues that the Struts tags take care of for you.  In that
respect, though, JavaServer Faces has been *much* more aggressive -- it
wants to help you encapsulate layout things (what tags like 
and  do), and the general concept of nested UI components so
that you can build things like a tree control without componsing them by
hand.  That, plus all of the other capabilities of the JavaServer Faces
model, owe no small part of their sophistication to the fact that Struts
already existed -- but the standard had to dramatically exceed it's
capabilities in order to be successful in the marketplace.  And it will.

> I am a big proponent of using standard technologies wherever possible.  This
> leads to much faster app development because we don't have to learn new
> frameworks and support is built into IDEs.  I'm also a proponent of OSS
> projects because they push the standards to be even better (Struts has
> obviously made a big impact on JSTL and JSF).  The JSTL, JSF, and Struts
> toolkits have made building Java webapps extremely easy without  giving up
> maintainability.

Struts has won support by almost the entire population of big time
development tools for web applications.  Stay tuned next week (JavaOne)
for s

Re: What's next for Struts?

[Ted Husted]

Craig R. McClanahan wrote:
No, Struts is definitely not dead.  
=:) Those rumors have been greatly exaggerated! The Struts Committers 
have been a bit busy the last year or so with parceling Struts into 
Commons components and all. But the Struts Community has been shipping, 
shipping, shipping.

For example, Don Brown is shipping extensions for using Struts with 
Cocoon and the Bean Scripting Framework, and as of today, Wildcard 
Actions. Mathias just released an update to his very useful workflow 
extension. James keeps bringing out Console after Console. Just to name 
a few. (Need to get that Resource page updated before final ships!)

And of course, there are the long-standing XLST, Velocity, SSL, and 
JUnit extension for Struts, doclet extensions for Struts, database 
extension for Struts, and surely many things I haven't heard of yet!

And, as Craig pointed out, Struts is not the only place where people are 
developing MVC frameworks. WebWorks demonstrated the usefulness of a 
unified Controller (or "Action") objects. Other frameworks like Maverick 
and JPublish are showing us how very different approaches to handling 
actions (as well as screens) can all be used within the same framework.

The point is that no matter how good JSF will be, or how good Struts is 
now, there will always be "more dreamed of" than what we happen to stuff 
in our distributions! There will always be gaps where open-source 
developers, like us, can jump in and start sharing our solutions.

This is true not only of Java, but of any platform. For example, most of 
us know that .NET lacks many of the high-level tools we all use and 
love. OSS, like nature, abhors a vacuum. So, OSS volunteers have been 
busily porting many of our favorite tools "to the dark side". Packages 
like Maverick, Velocity, and Log4*, again to name a few, are all now 
making life easier for our .NET brethen. OSS works because places like 
the ASF and SourceForge *let* it work. And it works everywhere, even on 
vendor "strangle-hold" platforms like .NET.

Over the past three years, the 40+ developers who have directly 
contributed to Struts -- and the thousands of others who helping out on 
Bugzilla, and the list, and the other support forums -- have proven 
(once again) that community-supported development does work, and that 
we'd all be poorer without it!

New specifications, like JSF, just give us fertile new ground where we 
can continue to do what we do best -- share the wealth!

Some things never change =:)

-Ted.



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RE: What's next for Struts?

[James Holmes]

Yep, I'm definitely not abandoning Struts either.  I am in the middle of
some nice new features for Struts Console.

Stay tuned.

-James
http://www.jamesholmes.com/struts/

-Original Message-
From: Ted Husted [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Sunday, June 08, 2003 8:18 AM
To: Struts Developers List
Subject: Re: What's next for Struts?

Craig R. McClanahan wrote:
> No, Struts is definitely not dead.  

=:) Those rumors have been greatly exaggerated! The Struts Committers 
have been a bit busy the last year or so with parceling Struts into 
Commons components and all. But the Struts Community has been shipping, 
shipping, shipping.

For example, Don Brown is shipping extensions for using Struts with 
Cocoon and the Bean Scripting Framework, and as of today, Wildcard 
Actions. Mathias just released an update to his very useful workflow 
extension. James keeps bringing out Console after Console. Just to name 
a few. (Need to get that Resource page updated before final ships!)

And of course, there are the long-standing XLST, Velocity, SSL, and 
JUnit extension for Struts, doclet extensions for Struts, database 
extension for Struts, and surely many things I haven't heard of yet!

And, as Craig pointed out, Struts is not the only place where people are

developing MVC frameworks. WebWorks demonstrated the usefulness of a 
unified Controller (or "Action") objects. Other frameworks like Maverick

and JPublish are showing us how very different approaches to handling 
actions (as well as screens) can all be used within the same framework.

The point is that no matter how good JSF will be, or how good Struts is 
now, there will always be "more dreamed of" than what we happen to stuff

in our distributions! There will always be gaps where open-source 
developers, like us, can jump in and start sharing our solutions.

This is true not only of Java, but of any platform. For example, most of

us know that .NET lacks many of the high-level tools we all use and 
love. OSS, like nature, abhors a vacuum. So, OSS volunteers have been 
busily porting many of our favorite tools "to the dark side". Packages 
like Maverick, Velocity, and Log4*, again to name a few, are all now 
making life easier for our .NET brethen. OSS works because places like 
the ASF and SourceForge *let* it work. And it works everywhere, even on 
vendor "strangle-hold" platforms like .NET.

Over the past three years, the 40+ developers who have directly 
contributed to Struts -- and the thousands of others who helping out on 
Bugzilla, and the list, and the other support forums -- have proven 
(once again) that community-supported development does work, and that 
we'd all be poorer without it!

New specifications, like JSF, just give us fertile new ground where we 
can continue to do what we do best -- share the wealth!

Some things never change =:)

-Ted.




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Re: What's next for Struts?

[Arron Bates]

I've spent some time fixing (recoding?) a proprietary framework which worked
exactly like JSF's component driven nature (In fact, I wrote their grid
control. Craig- all you had to do was ask :P ).  Let me say it has some very
clear appeal to the developer, even though that implementation was very
agricultrual (ugly when you get close, but gets the job done).

Fact is, working with components can be great, *really* great. And to have it
as a standard as such in the form of JSF means it's definitely worth an honest
look. Even with our framework as it was, overall it was a joy to use, and
quickly assembled a complex app that's been out there and running since late
last year. Honestly, some aspects of working with components will just have
you beside yourself with how cool it is.

But the interface isn't really where Struts' value-add is. Other developers
have shared the same opinion. So to this, Struts should look at integrating as
well as it can to the JSF etc.

For the future of Struts, IMHO, it seems it may be taking a step back off the
front line to bring in more value-adds to application composition and
management of the interface tier. It possibly (opionally?), wont be the first
line of interaction, but the engine that drives the next layer.

To that end, many people see persistence as the next layer after the interface
(like those that use the  jsp tags), to them it will replace Struts. For
most, it will be another handy layer of abstraction.


As for specifics... it's anyone's guess. Thing is though, innovation will
happen in a project like Struts or [insert any other open source project]
before it will happen in some specification consortium. So to take your eye
off the OSS space in this area would be as dangerous as not having at least a
play with JSF's component driven initiative.

The JSF integration library is propbably a good initial way to keep your foot
on either side of the fence.


Arron.



> On Sat, 7 Jun 2003, Bill Johnson wrote:
> 
> > Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2003 13:39:13 -0700 (PDT)
> > From: Bill Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Reply-To: Struts Developers List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: Struts Developers List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Subject: What's next for Struts?
> >
> > Thanks for passing that on.  I have read it now.  So I
> > can infer that Struts will likely become an
> > implementation of JSF.
> 
> I don't know the basis for you inferring that this is "likely" -- but it
> is certainly feasible, and might very well be a very great idea -- but
> that's up to the Struts developer community to decide.
> 
> >  That makes total sense given
> > its popularity.  It seems though that there will be a
> > fair amount of overlap and that the version of Struts
> > that implements the JSF spec will be quite different
> > from the Struts we know today.
> >
> 
> Not necessarily.
> 
> It's quite clear already that you can treat JavaServer Faces as a
> rendering library nad continue to use existing Struts based application
> design architectures.  Enabling this was the whole point of my developing
> the Struts-Faces integration library.
> 
> http://jakarta.apache.org/builds/jakarta-struts/release/struts-faces/
> 
> > It also infers that companies like BEA and IBM will
> > have implementations of JSF
> 
> Having more than one implementation of JavaServer Faces in the world seems
> pretty much assured already.  Next week, being JavaOne week, seems like a
> likely candidate for announcements in this regard :-).  But you'll have to
> ask individual companies for their own plans regarding JavaServer Faces.
> 
> > and that JSF will be a
> > requirement of the J2EE spec.  Can anyone confirm that
> > JSF will be a requirement of the J2EE spec for app
> > server vendors, etc?
> 
> JavaServer Faces is *not* part of the J2EE 1.4 specification.  Whether it
> will or will not be part of of J2EE 1.5 depends on what the expert group
> for J2EE 1.5's JSR decides to do.  Nobody knows at this point.
> 
> >
> > Ted, you're one of the better known Struts people
> > right?  What do you think of JSF?  For that matter,
> > what do all of the Struts devs think of JSF?
> >
> 
> I'm not Ted, but I am the original developer of the Struts Framework.  As
> it happens, part of my "day job" is to be the co-spec-lead for JavaServer
> Faces, so I have more than a little bit to do with how that turns out :-).
> Trust me ... Struts oriented developers and users *definitely* need to pay
> attention to what is going on with JavaServer Faces.
> 
> > I think there should be more discussion on this topic
> > as

Re: What's next for Struts?

[Craig R. McClanahan]

On Sat, 7 Jun 2003, Bill Johnson wrote:

> Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2003 13:39:13 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Bill Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Reply-To: Struts Developers List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: Struts Developers List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: What's next for Struts?
>
> Thanks for passing that on.  I have read it now.  So I
> can infer that Struts will likely become an
> implementation of JSF.

I don't know the basis for you inferring that this is "likely" -- but it
is certainly feasible, and might very well be a very great idea -- but
that's up to the Struts developer community to decide.

>  That makes total sense given
> its popularity.  It seems though that there will be a
> fair amount of overlap and that the version of Struts
> that implements the JSF spec will be quite different
> from the Struts we know today.
>

Not necessarily.

It's quite clear already that you can treat JavaServer Faces as a
rendering library nad continue to use existing Struts based application
design architectures.  Enabling this was the whole point of my developing
the Struts-Faces integration library.

http://jakarta.apache.org/builds/jakarta-struts/release/struts-faces/

> It also infers that companies like BEA and IBM will
> have implementations of JSF

Having more than one implementation of JavaServer Faces in the world seems
pretty much assured already.  Next week, being JavaOne week, seems like a
likely candidate for announcements in this regard :-).  But you'll have to
ask individual companies for their own plans regarding JavaServer Faces.

> and that JSF will be a
> requirement of the J2EE spec.  Can anyone confirm that
> JSF will be a requirement of the J2EE spec for app
> server vendors, etc?

JavaServer Faces is *not* part of the J2EE 1.4 specification.  Whether it
will or will not be part of of J2EE 1.5 depends on what the expert group
for J2EE 1.5's JSR decides to do.  Nobody knows at this point.

>
> Ted, you're one of the better known Struts people
> right?  What do you think of JSF?  For that matter,
> what do all of the Struts devs think of JSF?
>

I'm not Ted, but I am the original developer of the Struts Framework.  As
it happens, part of my "day job" is to be the co-spec-lead for JavaServer
Faces, so I have more than a little bit to do with how that turns out :-).
Trust me ... Struts oriented developers and users *definitely* need to pay
attention to what is going on with JavaServer Faces.

> I think there should be more discussion on this topic
> as I'm sure its on the minds of many more people than
> those at my company.  I've CCed user list for that
> input.
>
> By the way, thanks for creating a great software
> framework!
>
> Regards,
>
> Bill

Craig McClanahan

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Struts tools, re: What's next for Struts?

[Thomas L Roche]

Ted Husted Sun, 08 Jun 2003 09:18:27 -0400
> But the Struts Community has been shipping, shipping, shipping.

> For example, Don Brown is shipping extensions for using Struts with
> Cocoon and the Bean Scripting Framework, and as of today, Wildcard
> Actions. Mathias just released an update to his very useful workflow
> extension. James keeps bringing out Console after Console.

and, FWIW

http://www.infoworld.com/article/03/06/06/23TCwsed_1.html?s=tc
> [WebSphere Studio Enterprise Developer 5.0] nicely implements the
> open source Struts framework. Enterprise developers creating Web
> applications will find working with the Struts model, view, and
> controller paradigm a breeze.

 Note that the reviewer mentions that she

> [modified] an existing Cobol sales application to collect a greater
> amount of demographic data

and

> tried working with some PL/1 code I had on hand and achieved equal
> success

so perhaps we will succeed in converting the dinosaurs to Struts :-)


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Re: Struts tools, re: What's next for Struts?

[Chris Gerrard]

At 07:27 PM 6/9/2003, you wrote:
Ted Husted Sun, 08 Jun 2003 09:18:27 -0400
> But the Struts Community has been shipping, shipping, shipping.


so perhaps we will succeed in converting the dinosaurs to Struts :-)
It's already happening. I'm teaching corporate mainframe programmers how to 
move into the Java world using WebSphere Studio Application Developer 
(WSAD) for serious companies in/near Philadelphia and Pittsburgh. In most 
cases upper management has identified Java as a (major) technology to use 
for their real business applications going forward and are taking steps to 
get their staffs trained.

Struts is an integral part to this movement, and fits in well with these 
peoples' view of the world; they usually don't have too much trouble with 
Struts if they're not thrown cold into the middle of a struts-config.


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RE: Struts tools, re: What's next for Struts?

[Paananen, Tero]

> >so perhaps we will succeed in converting the dinosaurs
> to Struts :-)
> 
> It's already happening. I'm teaching corporate mainframe 
> programmers how to move into the Java world using
> WebSphere Studio Application Developer (WSAD) for
> serious companies in/near Philadelphia and Pittsburgh.
> In most cases upper management has identified Java as
> a (major) technology to use for their real business
> applications going forward and are taking steps to 
> get their staffs trained.

Same here. My employer (GTECH Corp, we run the lottery
systems for most of the US states) has chosen J2EE
and Struts as the building blocks for our next
generation systems, especially the systems that have
end-user interfaces.

Java-heads like me are training other staff members
in Java, Struts, J2EE and everything else that's
involved.

The use of frameworks such as Struts is crucial
in making this sort of transition successful.

-TPP

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