Re: JavaScript -- use or not use???

[Manuel Martin]

Hello,

On Sun, 6 Jan 2002 17:24:08 -0600 
"George White" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>  This isn't exactly a struts question but I have seen comments about JavaScript 
>often enough I was hoping someone could answer this very general question.
> The people I work use struts but are avoiding JavaScript because they say that some 
>clients may have JavaScript functionality turned off on their browsers.
> I use I.E. 5.0 and cannot see where I can turn JavaScript "off".
> Is this a valid concern (in other browsers such as Netscape, as well) and if so 
>how/where can JavaScript be turned "off"?

yes, it's an imo extreme valid concern: any validation on client side can
be:
- switched off or 
- doesn't work as expected (in different browsers),
- or doesn't work at all (because the user chose a browser w/o
  javascript or simply use a screenreader... ) or
- can be manipulated by the user ("never trust the client").

There will be more and more users who chose to switch it off with the
tons and tons of javascript-related bugs in IE , or switch
browsers, what makes javascript development harder.

JavaScript as additional means to avoid resubmiting of clearly incorrect
forms (like ones who lack a certain field) is a good thing, as long as
it is compatible to different browsers - which is a harder task as it
may seem at first with more sophisticated scripts - and if it is
ultimately rechecked at the server. Because of the latter I think it is
a waste of time using javascript while having a powerful "scripting
language" like Java on the server. It only adds to complexity, adds
extra problems and mostly very little extra comfort or performance. I
haven't tried t yet, but the possibility to split a complex form in
wizard style over multiple JSPs via a shared form-bean in Struts is a
better way to go imo.

Bye, MM
-- 
http://www.martinnet.de


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RE: JavaScript -- use or not use???

[Jesse Alexander (KABS 11)]

Hi,

make the following your motto:

"Everything you validate in JavaScript must be validated again on the server-side."
and
"Code your app the way it would run also with Javascript off, even though it might
result in less comfort for the user, or longer response times (because it must
go back to the server...)"

meaning:
Code as you like (with Javascript) and then test with Javascript turned off. If the 
app still 
works ok, if not: back to step one.

hope this helps
Alexander Jesse

-Original Message-
From: George White [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Monday, January 07, 2002 12:24 AM
To: Struts Users Mailing List
Subject: JavaScript -- use or not use???


Hi folks,

 This isn't exactly a struts question but I have seen comments about JavaScript often 
enough I was hoping someone could answer this very general question.
The people I work use struts but are avoiding JavaScript because they say that some 
clients may have JavaScript functionality turned off on their browsers.
I use I.E. 5.0 and cannot see where I can turn JavaScript "off".
Is this a valid concern (in other browsers such as Netscape, as well) and if so 
how/where can JavaScript be turned "off"?

Thanks much,
George



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RE: JavaScript -- use or not use???

[charles arehart]

I'll just add that it's a shame to throw the baby out with the bathwater,
avoiding use of JavaScript altogether. Yes, the cross-browser issues are
real, for even reasonably substantial use. But there are lots of things one
can do that are simple yet supported in the oldest implementations of
JavaScript and therefore reasonably safe in all browsers.

Also, not every use of JavaScript will cause great harm if the browser
doesn't support it. For instance, one feature I often stress is the focus()
method for putting the cursor into a field on a page (like a search form)
where the user would naturally have to do that themselves. It saves them
mousing to it, or tabbing perhaps several times.

Indeed, this is the subject of an article I've written in the January Java
Developers Journal magazine. You can see it online, "Getting Focus()ed--and
a Quick JavaScript Lesson", at
http://www.sys-con.com/java/articlea.cfm?id=1272

/charlie

PS There are books that do a good job of helping identify how to write
better cross-browser scripts, or at least being more aware of the browser
support of given objects, properties and methods, such as Danny Goodman's
O'Reilly title, "Dynamic HTML, The Definitive Reference", as well as his
"JavaScript Bible" and David Flanagan's O'Reilly title "JavaScript: The
Definitive Guide".

-Original Message-
From: Steven D. Wilkinson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2002 6:37 PM
To: Struts Users Mailing List
Subject: Re: JavaScript -- use or not use???


Personally, I believe that only people that are very computer savy do
this.

However, another reason to avoid JavaScript in validation is if your
application can have an interface other than the web.  If the validation
in on the server then the interface could be anything.  For example, WAP
and standard GUI clients don't use JavaScript.

On the otherhand, if you say well it's only a web application then you
have to deal with how JavaScript is implemented in each browser.  The
differences between IE and Netscape are real and it's best to avoid this
by doing server side validation. At least that's my view on the subject.

Steve

George White wrote:
>
> Hi folks,
>
>  This isn't exactly a struts question but I have seen comments about
JavaScript often enough I was hoping someone could answer this very general
question.
> The people I work use struts but are avoiding JavaScript because they say
that some clients may have JavaScript functionality turned off on their
browsers.
> I use I.E. 5.0 and cannot see where I can turn JavaScript "off".
> Is this a valid concern (in other browsers such as Netscape, as well) and
if so how/where can JavaScript be turned "off"?
>
> Thanks much,
> George

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Re: JavaScript -- use or not use???

[Steven D. Wilkinson]

Personally, I believe that only people that are very computer savy do
this.

However, another reason to avoid JavaScript in validation is if your
application can have an interface other than the web.  If the validation
in on the server then the interface could be anything.  For example, WAP
and standard GUI clients don't use JavaScript.

On the otherhand, if you say well it's only a web application then you
have to deal with how JavaScript is implemented in each browser.  The
differences between IE and Netscape are real and it's best to avoid this
by doing server side validation. At least that's my view on the subject.

Steve

George White wrote:
> 
> Hi folks,
> 
>  This isn't exactly a struts question but I have seen comments about JavaScript 
>often enough I was hoping someone could answer this very general question.
> The people I work use struts but are avoiding JavaScript because they say that some 
>clients may have JavaScript functionality turned off on their browsers.
> I use I.E. 5.0 and cannot see where I can turn JavaScript "off".
> Is this a valid concern (in other browsers such as Netscape, as well) and if so 
>how/where can JavaScript be turned "off"?
> 
> Thanks much,
> George

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RE: JavaScript -- use or not use???

[James Dasher]

Absolutely.  IE calls it Active Scripting, and it is at the bottom of
the Internet Options dialog.  I run with Javascript off so I don't have
to look at advertising popups and other "look at me!!!" shenanigans.  A
small but significant population of web-luddites do this.  Best to sniff
for it beforehand.


-Original Message-
From: George White [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2002 6:24 PM
To: Struts Users Mailing List
Subject: JavaScript -- use or not use???


Hi folks,

 This isn't exactly a struts question but I have seen comments about
JavaScript often enough I was hoping someone could answer this very
general question. The people I work use struts but are avoiding
JavaScript because they say that some clients may have JavaScript
functionality turned off on their browsers. I use I.E. 5.0 and cannot
see where I can turn JavaScript "off". Is this a valid concern (in other
browsers such as Netscape, as well) and if so how/where can JavaScript
be turned "off"?

Thanks much,
George




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To unsubscribe, e-mail:   <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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JavaScript -- use or not use???

[George White]

Hi folks,

 This isn't exactly a struts question but I have seen comments about JavaScript often 
enough I was hoping someone could answer this very general question.
The people I work use struts but are avoiding JavaScript because they say that some 
clients may have JavaScript functionality turned off on their browsers.
I use I.E. 5.0 and cannot see where I can turn JavaScript "off".
Is this a valid concern (in other browsers such as Netscape, as well) and if so 
how/where can JavaScript be turned "off"?

Thanks much,
George