MVC - not!
Wouldn't it be better if we stopped talking about MVC patterns when they really are not MVC patterns? The patterns usually called "MVC" are not because they have no event structure. We use, as a rule, a pattern that really is just based on minimal coupling, i.e., coupling only to contiguous operations. Isn't that right? The Model 2 maybe should be called the CD pattern, for "Contiguous Dependencies"? LEGAL NOTICE This electronic mail transmission and any accompanying documents contain information belonging to the sender which may be confidential and legally privileged. This information is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to whom this electronic mail transmission was sent as indicated above. If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying, distribution, or action taken in reliance on the contents of the information contained in this transmission is strictly prohibited. If you have received this transmission in error, please delete the message. Thank you - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MVC - not!
I don't see an "E" (for events) in "MVC". David From: Micael <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: "Struts Users Mailing List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Struts Users Mailing List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: MVC - not! Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2003 14:09:24 -0800 Wouldn't it be better if we stopped talking about MVC patterns when they really are not MVC patterns? The patterns usually called "MVC" are not because they have no event structure. We use, as a rule, a pattern that really is just based on minimal coupling, i.e., coupling only to contiguous operations. Isn't that right? The Model 2 maybe should be called the CD pattern, for "Contiguous Dependencies"? LEGAL NOTICE This electronic mail transmission and any accompanying documents contain information belonging to the sender which may be confidential and legally privileged. This information is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to whom this electronic mail transmission was sent as indicated above. If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying, distribution, or action taken in reliance on the contents of the information contained in this transmission is strictly prohibited. If you have received this transmission in error, please delete the message. Thank you - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] _ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MVC - not!
You 100% right, Micael. View should communicate with controller thru Events. In our case (Struts) Request/Response objects is such Events. Igor Shabalov. http://www.exadel.com http://www.exadel.com/products_strutsstudio.htm On Fri, 04 Apr 2003 14:09:24 -0800, Micael <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Wouldn't it be better if we stopped talking about MVC patterns when they really are not MVC patterns? The patterns usually called "MVC" are not because they have no event structure. We use, as a rule, a pattern that really is just based on minimal coupling, i.e., coupling only to contiguous operations. Isn't that right? The Model 2 maybe should be called the CD pattern, for "Contiguous Dependencies"? LEGAL NOTICE This electronic mail transmission and any accompanying documents contain information belonging to the sender which may be confidential and legally privileged. This information is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to whom this electronic mail transmission was sent as indicated above. If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying, distribution, or action taken in reliance on the contents of the information contained in this transmission is strictly prohibited. If you have received this transmission in error, please delete the message. Thank you - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Igor Shabalov Director of Engineering Exadel Inc. http://www.exadel.com - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MVC - not!
I know, David, and I admire your work. But, look at the design pattern. Ted Husted is right, I think, that it is not what we normally talk about. At 03:16 PM 4/4/03 -0700, David Graham wrote: I don't see an "E" (for events) in "MVC". David From: Micael <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: "Struts Users Mailing List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Struts Users Mailing List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: MVC - not! Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2003 14:09:24 -0800 Wouldn't it be better if we stopped talking about MVC patterns when they really are not MVC patterns? The patterns usually called "MVC" are not because they have no event structure. We use, as a rule, a pattern that really is just based on minimal coupling, i.e., coupling only to contiguous operations. Isn't that right? The Model 2 maybe should be called the CD pattern, for "Contiguous Dependencies"? LEGAL NOTICE This electronic mail transmission and any accompanying documents contain information belonging to the sender which may be confidential and legally privileged. This information is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to whom this electronic mail transmission was sent as indicated above. If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying, distribution, or action taken in reliance on the contents of the information contained in this transmission is strictly prohibited. If you have received this transmission in error, please delete the message. Thank you - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] _ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] LEGAL NOTICE This electronic mail transmission and any accompanying documents contain information belonging to the sender which may be confidential and legally privileged. This information is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to whom this electronic mail transmission was sent as indicated above. If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying, distribution, or action taken in reliance on the contents of the information contained in this transmission is strictly prohibited. If you have received this transmission in error, please delete the message. Thank you - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MVC - not!
Web MVC doesn't match conventional MVC from desktop GUI apps but I still consider them the same pattern. You have the same separation of concerns but with a slightly different message system between the components. IMO, calling it something other than MVC consuses the issue and is not helpful for a person trying to learn the pattern. David From: Micael <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: "Struts Users Mailing List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Struts Users Mailing List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: MVC - not! Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2003 15:22:07 -0800 I know, David, and I admire your work. But, look at the design pattern. Ted Husted is right, I think, that it is not what we normally talk about. At 03:16 PM 4/4/03 -0700, David Graham wrote: I don't see an "E" (for events) in "MVC". David From: Micael <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: "Struts Users Mailing List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Struts Users Mailing List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: MVC - not! Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2003 14:09:24 -0800 Wouldn't it be better if we stopped talking about MVC patterns when they really are not MVC patterns? The patterns usually called "MVC" are not because they have no event structure. We use, as a rule, a pattern that really is just based on minimal coupling, i.e., coupling only to contiguous operations. Isn't that right? The Model 2 maybe should be called the CD pattern, for "Contiguous Dependencies"? LEGAL NOTICE This electronic mail transmission and any accompanying documents contain information belonging to the sender which may be confidential and legally privileged. This information is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to whom this electronic mail transmission was sent as indicated above. If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying, distribution, or action taken in reliance on the contents of the information contained in this transmission is strictly prohibited. If you have received this transmission in error, please delete the message. Thank you - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] _ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] LEGAL NOTICE This electronic mail transmission and any accompanying documents contain information belonging to the sender which may be confidential and legally privileged. This information is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to whom this electronic mail transmission was sent as indicated above. If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying, distribution, or action taken in reliance on the contents of the information contained in this transmission is strictly prohibited. If you have received this transmission in error, please delete the message. Thank you - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] _ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MVC - not!
What you say makes sense, until you look at the actual pattern used that is called MVC. It was not until I tried stopping fitting what people were doing into what they said they were doing that I began to understand the pattern actually used, David. So, I have to respectfully disagree. I think the opposite in fact is true. I don't see anything like in the actual pattern, but just in the desired outcome. A pattern is not defined by its problem (the hoped for outcome) but by the solution. The MVC problem is the same in both cases, but the MVC solution is not what we use. Some, like Barracuda, come closer to the MVC. At 05:25 PM 4/4/03 -0700, David Graham wrote: Web MVC doesn't match conventional MVC from desktop GUI apps but I still consider them the same pattern. You have the same separation of concerns but with a slightly different message system between the components. IMO, calling it something other than MVC consuses the issue and is not helpful for a person trying to learn the pattern. David From: Micael <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: "Struts Users Mailing List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Struts Users Mailing List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: MVC - not! Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2003 15:22:07 -0800 I know, David, and I admire your work. But, look at the design pattern. Ted Husted is right, I think, that it is not what we normally talk about. At 03:16 PM 4/4/03 -0700, David Graham wrote: I don't see an "E" (for events) in "MVC". David From: Micael <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: "Struts Users Mailing List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Struts Users Mailing List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: MVC - not! Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2003 14:09:24 -0800 Wouldn't it be better if we stopped talking about MVC patterns when they really are not MVC patterns? The patterns usually called "MVC" are not because they have no event structure. We use, as a rule, a pattern that really is just based on minimal coupling, i.e., coupling only to contiguous operations. Isn't that right? The Model 2 maybe should be called the CD pattern, for "Contiguous Dependencies"? LEGAL NOTICE This electronic mail transmission and any accompanying documents contain information belonging to the sender which may be confidential and legally privileged. This information is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to whom this electronic mail transmission was sent as indicated above. If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying, distribution, or action taken in reliance on the contents of the information contained in this transmission is strictly prohibited. If you have received this transmission in error, please delete the message. Thank you - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] _ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] LEGAL NOTICE This electronic mail transmission and any accompanying documents contain information belonging to the sender which may be confidential and legally privileged. This information is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to whom this electronic mail transmission was sent as indicated above. If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying, distribution, or action taken in reliance on the contents of the information contained in this transmission is strictly prohibited. If you have received this transmission in error, please delete the message. Thank you - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] _ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] LEGAL NOTICE This electronic mail transmission and any accompanying documents contain information belonging to the sender which may be confidential and legally privileged. This information is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to whom this electronic mail transmission was sent as indicated above. If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying, distribution, or action taken in reliance on the contents of the information con
Re: MVC - not!
On Fri, 4 Apr 2003, Micael wrote: > Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2003 16:49:55 -0800 > From: Micael <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Reply-To: Struts Users Mailing List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: Struts Users Mailing List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: MVC - not! > > What you say makes sense, until you look at the actual pattern used that is > called MVC. It was not until I tried stopping fitting what people were > doing into what they said they were doing that I began to understand the > pattern actually used, David. So, I have to respectfully disagree. I > think the opposite in fact is true. I don't see anything like in the > actual pattern, but just in the desired outcome. A pattern is not defined > by its problem (the hoped for outcome) but by the solution. The MVC > problem is the same in both cases, but the MVC solution is not what we > use. Some, like Barracuda, come closer to the MVC. > The traditional GUI folks have long objected to the web folks "co-opting" the term MVC, usually along the grounds that Micael is arguing. My response is that a term means what people think it means -- and web app developers think MVC means frameworks like Struts. It's about two-three years too late for this discussion. It's time to move on to things that are more interesting. Craig - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: MVC - not!
I understand that, Craig, if you are talking to veterans, but like some of the choices in naming in applications, it just continues to confuse every new arrival until we finally use the right words. So, I appreciate your pragmatic approach, but the problem is still real. It is not just a matter of words, if you are new and trying to get things. There really are two very different patterns, and we use the same name for both of them and do not even mention, as a rule, that there is a huge difference in the underlying class architecture. But, I digress, and digress, and digress. At 06:30 PM 4/4/03 -0800, you wrote: On Fri, 4 Apr 2003, Micael wrote: > Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2003 16:49:55 -0800 > From: Micael <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Reply-To: Struts Users Mailing List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: Struts Users Mailing List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: MVC - not! > > What you say makes sense, until you look at the actual pattern used that is > called MVC. It was not until I tried stopping fitting what people were > doing into what they said they were doing that I began to understand the > pattern actually used, David. So, I have to respectfully disagree. I > think the opposite in fact is true. I don't see anything like in the > actual pattern, but just in the desired outcome. A pattern is not defined > by its problem (the hoped for outcome) but by the solution. The MVC > problem is the same in both cases, but the MVC solution is not what we > use. Some, like Barracuda, come closer to the MVC. > The traditional GUI folks have long objected to the web folks "co-opting" the term MVC, usually along the grounds that Micael is arguing. My response is that a term means what people think it means -- and web app developers think MVC means frameworks like Struts. It's about two-three years too late for this discussion. It's time to move on to things that are more interesting. Craig - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] LEGAL NOTICE This electronic mail transmission and any accompanying documents contain information belonging to the sender which may be confidential and legally privileged. This information is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to whom this electronic mail transmission was sent as indicated above. If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying, distribution, or action taken in reliance on the contents of the information contained in this transmission is strictly prohibited. If you have received this transmission in error, please delete the message. Thank you - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: MVC - not!
Hi Micael, I tend to agree with your assessment. Barracuda tries to distinguish between MVC and MVC-ish (Model 2). There's a discussion that tries to elucidate some of the differences here: http://barracudamvc.org/Barracuda/docs/barracuda_vs_struts.html#CC_Flow_MVC http://barracudamvc.org/Barracuda/docs/comp/mvc.html And now, back to your regularly scheduled programming... Christian -- Christian Cryder [EMAIL PROTECTED] Internet Architect, ATMReports.com Barracuda - http://barracudamvc.org -- "Coffee? I could quit anytime, just not today" > -Original Message- > From: Micael [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Friday, April 04, 2003 7:50 PM > To: Struts Users Mailing List; [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: MVC - not! > > > What you say makes sense, until you look at the actual pattern > used that is > called MVC. It was not until I tried stopping fitting what people were > doing into what they said they were doing that I began to understand the > pattern actually used, David. So, I have to respectfully disagree. I > think the opposite in fact is true. I don't see anything like in the > actual pattern, but just in the desired outcome. A pattern is > not defined > by its problem (the hoped for outcome) but by the solution. The MVC > problem is the same in both cases, but the MVC solution is not what we > use. Some, like Barracuda, come closer to the MVC. > > At 05:25 PM 4/4/03 -0700, David Graham wrote: > >Web MVC doesn't match conventional MVC from desktop GUI apps but I still > >consider them the same pattern. You have the same separation of > concerns > >but with a slightly different message system between the > components. IMO, > >calling it something other than MVC consuses the issue and is > not helpful > >for a person trying to learn the pattern. > > > >David > > > > > > > >>From: Micael <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >>Reply-To: "Struts Users Mailing List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >>To: "Struts Users Mailing List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, > >>[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >>Subject: Re: MVC - not! > >>Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2003 15:22:07 -0800 > >> > >>I know, David, and I admire your work. But, look at the design pattern. > >>Ted Husted is right, I think, that it is not what we normally > talk about. > >> > >>At 03:16 PM 4/4/03 -0700, David Graham wrote: > >>>I don't see an "E" (for events) in "MVC". > >>> > >>>David > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>>>From: Micael <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >>>>Reply-To: "Struts Users Mailing List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >>>>To: "Struts Users Mailing List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >>>>Subject: MVC - not! > >>>>Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2003 14:09:24 -0800 > >>>> > >>>>Wouldn't it be better if we stopped talking about MVC patterns when > >>>>they really are not MVC patterns? The patterns usually called "MVC" > >>>>are not because they have no event structure. We use, as a rule, a > >>>>pattern that really is just based on minimal coupling, i.e., coupling > >>>>only to contiguous operations. Isn't that right? The Model 2 maybe > >>>>should be called the CD pattern, for "Contiguous Dependencies"? > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>LEGAL NOTICE > >>>> > >>>>This electronic mail transmission and any accompanying documents > >>>>contain information belonging to the sender which may be confidential > >>>>and legally privileged. This information is intended only > for the use > >>>>of the individual or entity to whom this electronic mail transmission > >>>>was sent as indicated above. If you are not the intended > recipient, any > >>>>disclosure, copying, distribution, or action taken in reliance on the > >>>>contents of the information contained in this transmission is > strictly > >>>>prohibited. If you have received this transmission in error, please > >>>>delete the message. Thank you > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>>- > >>>>To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >>>>For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >>> > >>&
