OT - how much to java web developers charge?
I though this would be an appropriate group of people to ask: What is the industry-standard compensation structure/level for java web application development? Like if a company said they need a shopping cart e-store, and the developer has to design the database, beans, actions, jsp's, etc.? Do the professionals charge per hour? If so what's the range? Or by the size of the project? Thanks for any insight. -Sasha - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: OT - how much to java web developers charge?
It really depends on what clients are willing to pay. In Denver, the going rate for Java Developers is 45-55 hour. A few years ago, it was easy to get 75-100/hour. Times a changin'. HTH, Matt -Original Message- From: Sasha Borodin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, September 29, 2003 8:24 AM To: Struts Users Mailing List Subject: OT - how much to java web developers charge? I though this would be an appropriate group of people to ask: What is the industry-standard compensation structure/level for java web application development? Like if a company said they need a shopping cart e-store, and the developer has to design the database, beans, actions, jsp's, etc.? Do the professionals charge per hour? If so what's the range? Or by the size of the project? Thanks for any insight. -Sasha - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: OT - how much to java web developers charge?
Another shopping cart? ye gods. Im surprised sun havent made it a primitive:
private shoppingcart _bob;
public shoppingcart getBob() {...
It also rather depends on whether you are a highly experienced developer
with a portfolio of previous contract successes or a lowly salaried keyboard
monkey trying in vain to escape the cube farm.
Rates and prices do vary considerably between regions. The rate in
California for example is unlikely to be the same as the rate in London and
certainly not the same as the rate in Chennai. You may want to give a bit of
info on where you are and such like.
Over here I reckon a new contractor would be lucky to find anything over $2k
a month (1.1k US) for something as ordinary as a shopping cart now that the
economy has gone up a certain creek without a manual propulsion aid...
(Thats being a slave to a bodyshop. Trying to contract on your own? hehe
good luck...)
-Original Message-
From: Matt Raible [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, 29 September 2003 22:39
To: 'Struts Users Mailing List'
Subject: RE: OT - how much to java web developers charge?
It really depends on what clients are willing to pay. In Denver, the going
rate for Java Developers is 45-55 hour. A few years ago, it was easy to get
75-100/hour.
Times a changin'.
HTH,
Matt
-Original Message-
From: Sasha Borodin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, September 29, 2003 8:24 AM
To: Struts Users Mailing List
Subject: OT - how much to java web developers charge?
I though this would be an appropriate group of people to ask:
What is the industry-standard compensation structure/level for java web
application development? Like if a company said they need a shopping cart
e-store, and the developer has to design the database, beans, actions,
jsp's, etc.?
Do the professionals charge per hour? If so what's the range? Or by the
size of the project?
Thanks for any insight.
-Sasha
-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: OT - how much to java web developers charge?
Approximately $6.50 USD per hour? That's insane, why not work in construction - you'll get a tan and the exercise is free. -- Voytek Jarnot Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur. > -Original Message- > From: Andrew Hill [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Monday, September 29, 2003 10:13 AM > To: Struts Users Mailing List > Subject: RE: OT - how much to java web developers charge? > > Over here I reckon a new contractor would be lucky to find > anything over $2k > a month (1.1k US) for something as ordinary as a shopping > cart now that the > economy has gone up a certain creek without a manual propulsion aid... > (Thats being a slave to a bodyshop. Trying to contract on > your own? hehe > good luck...) - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT - how much to java web developers charge?
I'm really just trying to understand the per/hour vs. per/project
difference. But...
-I'm in Dallas, TX
-I'd be working for myself
-I've got 3 medium sized projects under my belt with java, much more with
other web-app technologies.
The problem is that these clients are medium-size businesses; they aren't
"offering" a rate, it's up to me to tell them how much I charge, what they
can expect the total to come out to, etc. Being new to *paid* work ;-) I'm
just trying to understand what's reasonable.
-Sasha
> From: "Andrew Hill" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Reply-To: "Struts Users Mailing List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 23:12:46 +0800
> To: "Struts Users Mailing List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: RE: OT - how much to java web developers charge?
>
> Another shopping cart? ye gods. Im surprised sun havent made it a primitive:
> private shoppingcart _bob;
> public shoppingcart getBob() {...
>
> It also rather depends on whether you are a highly experienced developer
> with a portfolio of previous contract successes or a lowly salaried keyboard
> monkey trying in vain to escape the cube farm.
>
> Rates and prices do vary considerably between regions. The rate in
> California for example is unlikely to be the same as the rate in London and
> certainly not the same as the rate in Chennai. You may want to give a bit of
> info on where you are and such like.
>
> Over here I reckon a new contractor would be lucky to find anything over $2k
> a month (1.1k US) for something as ordinary as a shopping cart now that the
> economy has gone up a certain creek without a manual propulsion aid...
> (Thats being a slave to a bodyshop. Trying to contract on your own? hehe
> good luck...)
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Matt Raible [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Monday, 29 September 2003 22:39
> To: 'Struts Users Mailing List'
> Subject: RE: OT - how much to java web developers charge?
>
>
> It really depends on what clients are willing to pay. In Denver, the going
> rate for Java Developers is 45-55 hour. A few years ago, it was easy to get
> 75-100/hour.
>
> Times a changin'.
>
> HTH,
>
> Matt
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Sasha Borodin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Monday, September 29, 2003 8:24 AM
> To: Struts Users Mailing List
> Subject: OT - how much to java web developers charge?
>
>
> I though this would be an appropriate group of people to ask:
>
> What is the industry-standard compensation structure/level for java web
> application development? Like if a company said they need a shopping cart
> e-store, and the developer has to design the database, beans, actions,
> jsp's, etc.?
>
> Do the professionals charge per hour? If so what's the range? Or by the
> size of the project?
>
> Thanks for any insight.
>
> -Sasha
>
>
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT - how much to java web developers charge?
Thanks for the suggestions so far.
-Sasha
> From: "Andrew Hill" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Reply-To: "Struts Users Mailing List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 23:12:46 +0800
> To: "Struts Users Mailing List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: RE: OT - how much to java web developers charge?
>
> Another shopping cart? ye gods. Im surprised sun havent made it a primitive:
> private shoppingcart _bob;
> public shoppingcart getBob() {...
>
> It also rather depends on whether you are a highly experienced developer
> with a portfolio of previous contract successes or a lowly salaried keyboard
> monkey trying in vain to escape the cube farm.
>
> Rates and prices do vary considerably between regions. The rate in
> California for example is unlikely to be the same as the rate in London and
> certainly not the same as the rate in Chennai. You may want to give a bit of
> info on where you are and such like.
>
> Over here I reckon a new contractor would be lucky to find anything over $2k
> a month (1.1k US) for something as ordinary as a shopping cart now that the
> economy has gone up a certain creek without a manual propulsion aid...
> (Thats being a slave to a bodyshop. Trying to contract on your own? hehe
> good luck...)
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Matt Raible [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Monday, 29 September 2003 22:39
> To: 'Struts Users Mailing List'
> Subject: RE: OT - how much to java web developers charge?
>
>
> It really depends on what clients are willing to pay. In Denver, the going
> rate for Java Developers is 45-55 hour. A few years ago, it was easy to get
> 75-100/hour.
>
> Times a changin'.
>
> HTH,
>
> Matt
>
> -----Original Message-
> From: Sasha Borodin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Monday, September 29, 2003 8:24 AM
> To: Struts Users Mailing List
> Subject: OT - how much to java web developers charge?
>
>
> I though this would be an appropriate group of people to ask:
>
> What is the industry-standard compensation structure/level for java web
> application development? Like if a company said they need a shopping cart
> e-store, and the developer has to design the database, beans, actions,
> jsp's, etc.?
>
> Do the professionals charge per hour? If so what's the range? Or by the
> size of the project?
>
> Thanks for any insight.
>
> -Sasha
>
>
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT - how much to java web developers charge?
Jarnot is correct.. Private Industry is 6.50/hr with No Medical Insurance and No Pension at least the military will contribute to both of those For these 2 reasons the military is now paying higher than Private Industry.. Buzz Cut Anyone??? -Martin - Original Message - From: "Jarnot Voytek Contr AU HQ/SC" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "'Struts Users Mailing List'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, September 29, 2003 11:18 AM Subject: RE: OT - how much to java web developers charge? > Approximately $6.50 USD per hour? That's insane, why not work in > construction - you'll get a tan and the exercise is free. > > -- > Voytek Jarnot > Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum viditur. > > > > -Original Message- > > From: Andrew Hill [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Sent: Monday, September 29, 2003 10:13 AM > > To: Struts Users Mailing List > > Subject: RE: OT - how much to java web developers charge? > > > > Over here I reckon a new contractor would be lucky to find > > anything over $2k > > a month (1.1k US) for something as ordinary as a shopping > > cart now that the > > economy has gone up a certain creek without a manual propulsion aid... > > (Thats being a slave to a bodyshop. Trying to contract on > > your own? hehe > > good luck...) > > > - > To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: OT - how much to java web developers charge?
Well Ive always been a salary monkey but fwiw my advice is that charging an
hourly rate is probably be appropriate.
The hard bit of course is giving them an accurate estimate of how many hours
they can expect you to take to do their project! If you say it will take 400
hours and then you bill them for 800, they arent going to be too happy.
If you end up charging on a per-project basis then obviously try to avoid
scope-creep like the plague. If its a a fixed price you can be sure the
requirements will have a tendency to grow if you dont keep an eye on it!
I hope it all works out well :-)
-Original Message-
From: Sasha Borodin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, 29 September 2003 23:23
To: Struts Users Mailing List
Subject: Re: OT - how much to java web developers charge?
I'm really just trying to understand the per/hour vs. per/project
difference. But...
-I'm in Dallas, TX
-I'd be working for myself
-I've got 3 medium sized projects under my belt with java, much more with
other web-app technologies.
The problem is that these clients are medium-size businesses; they aren't
"offering" a rate, it's up to me to tell them how much I charge, what they
can expect the total to come out to, etc. Being new to *paid* work ;-) I'm
just trying to understand what's reasonable.
-Sasha
> From: "Andrew Hill" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Reply-To: "Struts Users Mailing List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Mon, 29 Sep 2003 23:12:46 +0800
> To: "Struts Users Mailing List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: RE: OT - how much to java web developers charge?
>
> Another shopping cart? ye gods. Im surprised sun havent made it a
primitive:
> private shoppingcart _bob;
> public shoppingcart getBob() {...
>
> It also rather depends on whether you are a highly experienced developer
> with a portfolio of previous contract successes or a lowly salaried
keyboard
> monkey trying in vain to escape the cube farm.
>
> Rates and prices do vary considerably between regions. The rate in
> California for example is unlikely to be the same as the rate in London
and
> certainly not the same as the rate in Chennai. You may want to give a bit
of
> info on where you are and such like.
>
> Over here I reckon a new contractor would be lucky to find anything over
$2k
> a month (1.1k US) for something as ordinary as a shopping cart now that
the
> economy has gone up a certain creek without a manual propulsion aid...
> (Thats being a slave to a bodyshop. Trying to contract on your own? hehe
> good luck...)
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Matt Raible [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Monday, 29 September 2003 22:39
> To: 'Struts Users Mailing List'
> Subject: RE: OT - how much to java web developers charge?
>
>
> It really depends on what clients are willing to pay. In Denver, the
going
> rate for Java Developers is 45-55 hour. A few years ago, it was easy to
get
> 75-100/hour.
>
> Times a changin'.
>
> HTH,
>
> Matt
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Sasha Borodin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Monday, September 29, 2003 8:24 AM
> To: Struts Users Mailing List
> Subject: OT - how much to java web developers charge?
>
>
> I though this would be an appropriate group of people to ask:
>
> What is the industry-standard compensation structure/level for java web
> application development? Like if a company said they need a shopping cart
> e-store, and the developer has to design the database, beans, actions,
> jsp's, etc.?
>
> Do the professionals charge per hour? If so what's the range? Or by the
> size of the project?
>
> Thanks for any insight.
>
> -Sasha
>
>
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT - how much to java web developers charge?
On Mon, Sep 29, 2003 at 10:22:40AM -0500, Sasha Borodin wrote: > I'm really just trying to understand the per/hour vs. per/project > difference. But... > > -I'm in Dallas, TX > -I'd be working for myself > -I've got 3 medium sized projects under my belt with java, much more with > other web-app technologies. > > The problem is that these clients are medium-size businesses; they aren't > "offering" a rate, it's up to me to tell them how much I charge, what they > can expect the total to come out to, etc. Being new to *paid* work ;-) I'm > just trying to understand what's reasonable. I would recommend two books: _The Computer Consultant's Guide_ by Janet Ruhl _The Geek's Guide To Internet Business Success_ by Bob Schmidt _The Computer Consultant's Guide_ excelled at covering nuts 'n bolts sorta stuff, where most other consulting books I looked at were about marketing, sales, business plans and forms. Ruhl's book was a breath of fresh air. Ruhl's website is at www.realrates.com, which may also have some good advice on what the going rate is where you are. A quick skim of the realrates.com suggests that this book may no longer be available, but her other stuff is likely to be worth a look. Bob Schmidt's book is nuts 'n bolts oriented also, but it struck me as a little more general. It may have been updated since I read it in 1997 or 1998, back then it was definitely geared towards web designers. The technology has changed, the types of projects are vastly different, but most of the business aspects are the same. Even though this book won't 100% apply to waht you're doing, after you read it, you'll have much more of a context, a framework to compare and contrast your own situation against. Odds are, you don't even have that, right now. What another poster pointed out is dead on, you're going to have to deal with all of the killer project planning issues. There are a zillion books and articles out there on this topic. I can't distill all that down to a single post, but I can give you a couple of rules of thumb: 1) when bizguys ask you initial questions about time and costs, they don't want a detailed, point-by-point estimates. They're usually so completely in the dark that they don't even know what city they're in, let alone what ballpark. I usually lead off all responses to such questions with order of magnitude (days, weeks, months) and then start to ask qualifying questions, i.e. "Could be a day or two, could be a couple of weeks, depending on whether it turns out to be easy or hard." 2) bizguys always seem to remember the lowest/highest number you give them, no matter what you say first or what you say last, or what gotchas you warn them about, etc. This is part of why I prefer orders of magnitude. Be on guard against this; avoid making offhand comments about when things will get done, or time estimates. I'm not saying you should make your relationship with the bizguys adverserial, but they didn't get to be bizguys by passing up any opportunity. Plus, it's just human nature on their part, and even on your own. Counteract this by keeping careful track of your estimates and reiterating them when appropriate. 3) I try to only give answers when I've already done what they're asking me for. No matter how close a grasp of the proposed idea you think you have, unless you've built one before, you don't really know if it's going to turn out to be that simple. If I haven't done it in the past, I'll tell them I'll look into it; if they press me at that point I'll give them a *very* loose order of magnitude. E.g. if I think it'll probably be days, but I've never done it before, I'll say weeks, but it might be less after I look into it. Then I go look into it. Ideally I prototype it as part of my "looking into it". In other words I get a working example of the most unknown and important parts of the proposal. If the prototyping goes well and easily, then I can make a valid guess at what'll be necessary to do the project. 4) There are many knowns. There are many unknowns. Sit down and map out the knowns and unknowns. Break down the knowns into as much detail as you can, put time and cost estimates next to each one. The process of doing this (and make a habit of doing it, repeatedly, and of referring back to your notes, correcting any estimates, adding in any missed items) will help you narrow down the X factors in your project plan. I don't know that you should necessarily show the above to the bizguy - certainly not in the excruciating detail I'm suggesting, that would lead to them micromanaging you - but it definitely is something you should have in mind. Bizguys don't deal well with unknowns (well, actually, they do, but part of how they do is by avoiding unknowns where at all possible). They especially don't deal well with big unknown X factors in the middle of big unknown territories like software devel
