Re: Problems with gases on Shearwater
On Thu, Dec 6, 2018 at 6:51 AM Long, Martin wrote: > > By the way, my BLE and BT (I have to use legacy BT for the Petrel > controller), have both been working very well for me lately. It used > to be a struggle every time, but recently it's worked first time every > time. Yeah, we've gotten a lot more stable wrt BLE, that's for sure. Don't know about legacy bluetooth, I don't really have any devices with that. I think what's going on with the Shearwaters is that they have this odd "non-pairing pairing", where they don't really do proper bluetooth, but instead have a simplified bluetooth stack that "kind of works". And that stack gets confused when you switch between two different devices to download. In particular, I think my Teric problem was that the last time I downloaded from it, I used my laptop (because I was traveling for diving). And then when I wanted to try it yesterday, my laptop was sitting next to me on my desk, but I was trying to talk to the Teric using my "real" computer. So what I think happened is that the Teric saw the laptop, and continued to want to talk to it, even though I was trying to connect to it from the desktop. Turning off my laptop before starting Bluetooth on the Teric seems to have solved the issue. So the Shearwater bluetooth stack has some kind of fake pairing which is just "remember who I talked to last, and prefer that target, whether it's talking to me or not". Anyway, I don't think it's related to the subsurface BLE code at all - we've always had odd behavior when trying to switch between different downloaders with Shearwater. > The 13/16 was what I had in when I arrived on site (a rubbish, but > usable blend). After day 2 needed a fill, asked for 15/55, got 15/57. > So I simply updated the 13/60 to 15/57. Just checked again, and there > is only the 15/57 in there now. Same on both computers. Hmm. Then it's _really_ odd that all three dives show up as 15/57. I don't see from the code how that could happen at all. There should have been absolutely nothing in the first two dives that could have possibly resulted in that gasmix being downloaded. Strange. And I'm assuming there's no way you could possibly have had 15/57 on that Perdix AI from before (and just forgotten and dove with the wrong gas), since it wasn't even some standard target gas for you. But I have to ask, since you apparently use the Perdix AI as the second backup. - could it be something like that? Anyway, I'd love to see downloads from scratch and separately for the Perdix AI and Petrel (ie don't download into your existing subsurface database). Both the resulting xml file and the libdivecomputer logfile. If you start subsurface from the command line, the easiest way to do that is to just do something like subsurface nonexisting.xml which will start subsurface with an empty slate (and a warning about how it can't open "nonexisting.xml", of course). And then you do "save as" at the end to save the result to some temporary XML file (do *not* save to cloud which might overwrite your existing cloud data!). > The shearwater doesn't associate gasses with transmitters. They're > completely separate things. T1 and T2, and Gas1, Gas2, Gas3 etc. Only > the diver makes the association. Bah. I like the Shearwater Perdix AI, and the Teric is probably now my favorite dive computer, but dammit, the *only* dive computer that gets gas handling right - including pressures - seems to be the Suunto EON Steel/Core. But yeah, that means that we'd need to have some way to fix up sensor to cylinder mapping by hand after the fact. Which is a real pain from a UI standpoint. Well, it is for me, at least. I'm perfectly comfy working on libdivecomputer and on low-level subsurface stuff, but the UI things I just punt on.. Linus ___ subsurface mailing list subsurface@subsurface-divelog.org http://lists.subsurface-divelog.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/subsurface
Re: Problems with gases on Shearwater
Ok, I think I can confirm that the first issue is somewhere between a mistake, and the user interface allowing me to do something dangerous. (Sorry Linus for the wild goose chase. I multi-selected all of my dives for the trip, and chanced the "type" of cylinder 1 to a 3l cylinder, and saved it. This seems to have updated the o2% and He%, though not the pressures, for cylinder one on all of those dives. I wouldn't have expected that to happen. However, I'm still stuck with cylinder 2 now being a hybrid of my oxygen pressure and first gas switch cylinder. On Thu, 6 Dec 2018 at 15:51, Long, Martin wrote: > Hi Jef > > Looking back through my git history it looks like it may have actually > been imported correctly, so I now suspect that the first issue may not > actually be download issue. I'll see if I can reproduce that one. It looks > like it happened when added the dives to a trip, and renumbered them. > > The second problem, however, is not so much a bug as a challenge. How to > map transmitter data to gasses. > > I'll keep you posted > > thanks > > Martin > > On Thu, 6 Dec 2018 at 15:42, Jef Driesen wrote: > >> On 2018-12-05 17:17, Long, Martin wrote: >> > I've noticed some problems with the import of gases on Shearwater >> > computers. There are possible 2 issues here, but these seem to be >> > related. >> > >> > 1) I just imported 4 dives from last weekend, all CCR. The first 3 >> > were on 13/60 diluent and the last one on 15/57. However, it put all >> > of the divers in as 15/57, which seems to just be the last diluent >> > set. The Shearwater cloud software does identify the correct gas used >> > at the start of the dive. >> > >> > 2) I'm using two transmitters on a Perdix AI. Transmitter 1 is on my >> > diluent, and transmitter 2 on my oxygen. On import it seems to >> > correctly associate my transmitter one with the diluent (apart from >> > the error in 1 above). Now, providing I don't do any gas switches >> > (e.g. a bailout) then transmitter 2 I can simply set up as 100% O2. >> > However, if I do a gas switch, the software automatically assigns this >> > gas switch to cyl 2, and so it becomes associated with the transmitter >> > data. >> > >> > I now have 2 choices... Either I can enter a new gas of 100% and >> > manually type the start and end pressure - however I cannot remote it >> > from cyl 2. Or, I can set cyl 2 as 100%, and add a new one for my >> > baiout gas. However this then means the cylinder swtich then points at >> > the wrong gas, and will say I switched to 100% on my bailout! >> > >> > I don't have a solution to this. As the import process has no manual >> > intervention, it would be tricky to have a solution which works. My >> > suggestion would be to treat transmitters and gas swtiches as >> > completely separate cylinders, and then allow the user to "merge" them >> > later. The current assumption that transmitter 1 will be the first >> > gas, and transmitter 2 will be the next one is incorrect. >> > >> > By the way, the ability to merge the 2 profiles from my Petrel >> > controller, and Perdix backup (with AI) is excellent! and works really >> > well. >> >> Can you send us the subsurface and libdivecomputer logfiles of a (full) >> download? That will allow us to have a look at the raw data, and see >> where or what is going wrong. >> >> PS: The shearwater protocol doesn't support memory dumps, but I can >> extract the raw dive data from the download log. >> >> Jef >> > ___ subsurface mailing list subsurface@subsurface-divelog.org http://lists.subsurface-divelog.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/subsurface
Re: Problems with gases on Shearwater
Hi Jef Looking back through my git history it looks like it may have actually been imported correctly, so I now suspect that the first issue may not actually be download issue. I'll see if I can reproduce that one. It looks like it happened when added the dives to a trip, and renumbered them. The second problem, however, is not so much a bug as a challenge. How to map transmitter data to gasses. I'll keep you posted thanks Martin On Thu, 6 Dec 2018 at 15:42, Jef Driesen wrote: > On 2018-12-05 17:17, Long, Martin wrote: > > I've noticed some problems with the import of gases on Shearwater > > computers. There are possible 2 issues here, but these seem to be > > related. > > > > 1) I just imported 4 dives from last weekend, all CCR. The first 3 > > were on 13/60 diluent and the last one on 15/57. However, it put all > > of the divers in as 15/57, which seems to just be the last diluent > > set. The Shearwater cloud software does identify the correct gas used > > at the start of the dive. > > > > 2) I'm using two transmitters on a Perdix AI. Transmitter 1 is on my > > diluent, and transmitter 2 on my oxygen. On import it seems to > > correctly associate my transmitter one with the diluent (apart from > > the error in 1 above). Now, providing I don't do any gas switches > > (e.g. a bailout) then transmitter 2 I can simply set up as 100% O2. > > However, if I do a gas switch, the software automatically assigns this > > gas switch to cyl 2, and so it becomes associated with the transmitter > > data. > > > > I now have 2 choices... Either I can enter a new gas of 100% and > > manually type the start and end pressure - however I cannot remote it > > from cyl 2. Or, I can set cyl 2 as 100%, and add a new one for my > > baiout gas. However this then means the cylinder swtich then points at > > the wrong gas, and will say I switched to 100% on my bailout! > > > > I don't have a solution to this. As the import process has no manual > > intervention, it would be tricky to have a solution which works. My > > suggestion would be to treat transmitters and gas swtiches as > > completely separate cylinders, and then allow the user to "merge" them > > later. The current assumption that transmitter 1 will be the first > > gas, and transmitter 2 will be the next one is incorrect. > > > > By the way, the ability to merge the 2 profiles from my Petrel > > controller, and Perdix backup (with AI) is excellent! and works really > > well. > > Can you send us the subsurface and libdivecomputer logfiles of a (full) > download? That will allow us to have a look at the raw data, and see > where or what is going wrong. > > PS: The shearwater protocol doesn't support memory dumps, but I can > extract the raw dive data from the download log. > > Jef > ___ subsurface mailing list subsurface@subsurface-divelog.org http://lists.subsurface-divelog.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/subsurface
Re: Problems with gases on Shearwater
On 2018-12-05 17:17, Long, Martin wrote: I've noticed some problems with the import of gases on Shearwater computers. There are possible 2 issues here, but these seem to be related. 1) I just imported 4 dives from last weekend, all CCR. The first 3 were on 13/60 diluent and the last one on 15/57. However, it put all of the divers in as 15/57, which seems to just be the last diluent set. The Shearwater cloud software does identify the correct gas used at the start of the dive. 2) I'm using two transmitters on a Perdix AI. Transmitter 1 is on my diluent, and transmitter 2 on my oxygen. On import it seems to correctly associate my transmitter one with the diluent (apart from the error in 1 above). Now, providing I don't do any gas switches (e.g. a bailout) then transmitter 2 I can simply set up as 100% O2. However, if I do a gas switch, the software automatically assigns this gas switch to cyl 2, and so it becomes associated with the transmitter data. I now have 2 choices... Either I can enter a new gas of 100% and manually type the start and end pressure - however I cannot remote it from cyl 2. Or, I can set cyl 2 as 100%, and add a new one for my baiout gas. However this then means the cylinder swtich then points at the wrong gas, and will say I switched to 100% on my bailout! I don't have a solution to this. As the import process has no manual intervention, it would be tricky to have a solution which works. My suggestion would be to treat transmitters and gas swtiches as completely separate cylinders, and then allow the user to "merge" them later. The current assumption that transmitter 1 will be the first gas, and transmitter 2 will be the next one is incorrect. By the way, the ability to merge the 2 profiles from my Petrel controller, and Perdix backup (with AI) is excellent! and works really well. Can you send us the subsurface and libdivecomputer logfiles of a (full) download? That will allow us to have a look at the raw data, and see where or what is going wrong. PS: The shearwater protocol doesn't support memory dumps, but I can extract the raw dive data from the download log. Jef ___ subsurface mailing list subsurface@subsurface-divelog.org http://lists.subsurface-divelog.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/subsurface
Re: Problems with gases on Shearwater
Thanks for getting back to me Linus. By the way, my BLE and BT (I have to use legacy BT for the Petrel controller), have both been working very well for me lately. It used to be a struggle every time, but recently it's worked first time every time. On Wed, 5 Dec 2018 at 17:38, Linus Torvalds wrote: > On Wed, Dec 5, 2018 at 8:18 AM Long, Martin wrote: > > > > 1) I just imported 4 dives from last weekend, all CCR. The first 3 > >were on 13/60 diluent and the last one on 15/57. However, it put > >all of the divers in as 15/57, which seems to just be the last > >diluent set. The Shearwater cloud software does identify the > >correct gas used at the start of the dive. > > Hmm. We clearly do something wrong, presumably in libdivecomputer > (although it could be some gas mixup in subsurface too, but unlikely). > > Just to clarify: did you have both 13/60 and 15/57 _programmed_ on the > Shearwater for all four dives, but you then activate one of the two > before the dive? > No. The 13/16 was what I had in when I arrived on site (a rubbish, but usable blend). After day 2 needed a fill, asked for 15/55, got 15/57. So I simply updated the 13/60 to 15/57. Just checked again, and there is only the 15/57 in there now. Same on both computers. > > The way this all works in libdivecomputer: > > - the shearwater never really gives us a set of cylinders at all. > > - instead, each sample contains "current gas mix" > > - as the current gas changes, we look it up in the previously seen > gas mixes, and if not seen we give it a new cylinder number > > In other words, the first gas mentioned in the log always ends up > being gas 0, then the next one is gas 1 etc. > > But what we don't have is any knowledge of what gas the *shearwater* > considers gas 0/1/2.. and in particular we don't know how it > associates gases with transmitters. > The shearwater doesn't associate gasses with transmitters. They're completely separate things. T1 and T2, and Gas1, Gas2, Gas3 etc. Only the diver makes the association. > > I don't see how/why we'd get the gas mix wrong for your four dives, though. > > Anyway, we do have some documentation from Shearwater, and I think it > should be possible to get the proper "these are the cylinders". > > I'll just have to read it and understand it. Dirk, who actually did > the new Shearwater format (and thus probably knows it better) is off > gallivanting with real work in Asia right now, so he probably won't be > able to do much, even though he's probably a better person for it. > > > 2) I'm using two transmitters on a Perdix AI. Transmitter 1 is on my > >diluent, and transmitter 2 on my oxygen. On import it seems to > >correctly associate my transmitter one with the diluent (apart from > >the error in 1 above). Now, providing I don't do any gas switches > >(e.g. a bailout) then transmitter 2 I can simply set up as 100% O2. > >However, if I do a gas switch, the software automatically assigns > >this gas switch to cyl 2, and so it becomes associated with the > >transmitter data. > > This is how the libdivecomputer cylinder pressure parsing works, but > we didn't know any better. The Shearwater gives us two pressures, and > we assume that the first pressure is for tank 0, and the second > pressure is for tank 1. > > We have no logic to associate pressures with any other cylinders, and > I don't really know what the logic would be. But see above. Getting > the cylinder index right would probably fix things properly. > > So I will look into it. > > > I now have 2 choices... Either I can enter a new gas of 100% and > > manually type the start and end pressure - however I cannot remote it > > from cyl 2. Or, I can set cyl 2 as 100%, and add a new one for my > > baiout gas. However this then means the cylinder swtich then points at > > the wrong gas, and will say I switched to 100% on my bailout! > > Right. These problems are related. You can't remove the second gas, > because it's mentioned as a gas switch target. And when you add the > new gas, it doesn't fix the gas switch target. > > What you can do - and which will fix both issues - is to simply edit > the gas switch. You can do it either the hacky way (just edit in the > xml file or in the git repository by hand), or you can do it in the > GUI on desktop by adding a new gas switch and then removing the old > one. > > But there's a downside: playing games with gas switches can also > confuse subsurface in what the pressure data is. So you may lose the > pressure data unless you are very careful (again, doing this by hand > if you know exactly what you're doing is possible, but it's all kinds > of crazy so I can't really recommend it). > I suspect I could do this, as log as I don't remove the two cylinders which show the pressure data. I could add a third with the gas I switched to and replace the gas switch to point to that. > > > I don't have a solution to this. As the import process has no manual >
Re: Problems with gases on Shearwater
On Wed, Dec 5, 2018 at 9:38 AM Linus Torvalds wrote: > > So I will look into it. Grr. Right now BLE doesn't seem to work for me at all on my Teric and my main desktop. I suspect it's because I upgraded to F29, and that changed something. But my Aqualung i770R works fine, so it's not that BLE doesn't work in general, it's something specific to the Shearwater BLE situation. Shearwater bluetooth has always been odd and somewhat flaky. I thought we'd gotten over it because it worked fairly well for me lately, but apparently there's still something wrong with it.. Linus ___ subsurface mailing list subsurface@subsurface-divelog.org http://lists.subsurface-divelog.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/subsurface
Re: Problems with gases on Shearwater
On Wed, Dec 5, 2018 at 8:18 AM Long, Martin wrote: > > 1) I just imported 4 dives from last weekend, all CCR. The first 3 >were on 13/60 diluent and the last one on 15/57. However, it put >all of the divers in as 15/57, which seems to just be the last >diluent set. The Shearwater cloud software does identify the >correct gas used at the start of the dive. Hmm. We clearly do something wrong, presumably in libdivecomputer (although it could be some gas mixup in subsurface too, but unlikely). Just to clarify: did you have both 13/60 and 15/57 _programmed_ on the Shearwater for all four dives, but you then activate one of the two before the dive? The way this all works in libdivecomputer: - the shearwater never really gives us a set of cylinders at all. - instead, each sample contains "current gas mix" - as the current gas changes, we look it up in the previously seen gas mixes, and if not seen we give it a new cylinder number In other words, the first gas mentioned in the log always ends up being gas 0, then the next one is gas 1 etc. But what we don't have is any knowledge of what gas the *shearwater* considers gas 0/1/2.. and in particular we don't know how it associates gases with transmitters. I don't see how/why we'd get the gas mix wrong for your four dives, though. Anyway, we do have some documentation from Shearwater, and I think it should be possible to get the proper "these are the cylinders". I'll just have to read it and understand it. Dirk, who actually did the new Shearwater format (and thus probably knows it better) is off gallivanting with real work in Asia right now, so he probably won't be able to do much, even though he's probably a better person for it. > 2) I'm using two transmitters on a Perdix AI. Transmitter 1 is on my >diluent, and transmitter 2 on my oxygen. On import it seems to >correctly associate my transmitter one with the diluent (apart from >the error in 1 above). Now, providing I don't do any gas switches >(e.g. a bailout) then transmitter 2 I can simply set up as 100% O2. >However, if I do a gas switch, the software automatically assigns >this gas switch to cyl 2, and so it becomes associated with the >transmitter data. This is how the libdivecomputer cylinder pressure parsing works, but we didn't know any better. The Shearwater gives us two pressures, and we assume that the first pressure is for tank 0, and the second pressure is for tank 1. We have no logic to associate pressures with any other cylinders, and I don't really know what the logic would be. But see above. Getting the cylinder index right would probably fix things properly. So I will look into it. > I now have 2 choices... Either I can enter a new gas of 100% and > manually type the start and end pressure - however I cannot remote it > from cyl 2. Or, I can set cyl 2 as 100%, and add a new one for my > baiout gas. However this then means the cylinder swtich then points at > the wrong gas, and will say I switched to 100% on my bailout! Right. These problems are related. You can't remove the second gas, because it's mentioned as a gas switch target. And when you add the new gas, it doesn't fix the gas switch target. What you can do - and which will fix both issues - is to simply edit the gas switch. You can do it either the hacky way (just edit in the xml file or in the git repository by hand), or you can do it in the GUI on desktop by adding a new gas switch and then removing the old one. But there's a downside: playing games with gas switches can also confuse subsurface in what the pressure data is. So you may lose the pressure data unless you are very careful (again, doing this by hand if you know exactly what you're doing is possible, but it's all kinds of crazy so I can't really recommend it). > I don't have a solution to this. As the import process has no manual > intervention, it would be tricky to have a solution which works. My > suggestion would be to treat transmitters and gas swtiches as > completely separate cylinders, and then allow the user to "merge" them > later. The current assumption that transmitter 1 will be the first > gas, and transmitter 2 will be the next one is incorrect. Well, we should just get the mapping right and not have this problem, but neither I nor Dirk has ever really used the Perdix AI with multiple cylinders. Let's see what I can do. Linus ___ subsurface mailing list subsurface@subsurface-divelog.org http://lists.subsurface-divelog.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/subsurface
