Re: [sugar] [Sugar-devel] XO identity shared via Browse
On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 5:34 PM, Robert McQueen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I really don't think these kind of comments are productive for anyone. [...] However, I'm not interested in participating (therefore I have not done so) in participating in discussions about collaboration on Sugar which a) ignore everything we've done so far, and b) contain fallacies such as: * Given a working IPv6 network, we... * Given a global DNS hirachy of school servers, we... * ... Whoa, there. Please don't drag me into this, and force me to rebut. We have a perfectly working link-local IPv6 network on every deployment we've ever fielded. And you (further on in your email) state so provided the school server actually has a unique DNS name, we're all set. which sounds suspiciously like your second fallacy. We've had a fruitful discussion of http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Network_principles in the past, and you made several good suggestions which I integrated. I don't think the Network principles proposal is anti the current networking stack at all; it just clarifies what networking situations we will attempt to provide and support, and does a little bit to decouple presence from the rest of the collaboration stack. I hope your email was written in the heat of passion only, and doesn't reflect a fundamental misunderstanding. I was accused of having some personal malicious intent towards Collabora multiple times during Sugarcamp, and it's rather dreary to have to keep insisting that it's just not so. If we need to clarify further, let's do so in order that we can continue working together productively -- but perhaps not on this particular thread, which is perhaps currently too hot for reasonable discourse. --scott -- ( http://cscott.net/ ) ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
Re: [sugar] [Localization] [Proposal] .xot bundles, for translations
Re: Scratch etoys: the problem with updating translations in place is that it doesn't support distributed work on translations: OLPC might do basic translations; they might be further developed in a country or region, etc. Each might be updated individually. Further, you want to be able to back out changes, in order to protect against getting malicious translations from a friend. Uninstalling a language bundle gives you that, un-merging changes to a shared in-place translation file is... more difficult. --scott -- ( http://cscott.net/ ) ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
Re: [sugar] [Proposal] .xot bundles, for translations
On Tue, Dec 2, 2008 at 2:26 PM, Martin Langhoff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, Nov 13, 2008 at 6:58 PM, Sayamindu Dasgupta [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have been thinking of having a separate place in the filesystem for _new_ translations, and using RPM to manage the installation and upgradation of the new translations. What is the downside of RPMs? If users edit the localisation locally, that is _fine_ and we can provide a mechanism to make an rpm easily out of it. rpm has limited support for user installable packages that are meant to be installed in your homedir. Maybe it can serve this purpose, even within its limitations? If that doesn't work properly, maybe we install the rpm as root, but invoking rpm with --noscripts, and perhaps auditing the pkg manifest to check for anything with suid flags, etc. We could even build a dumb rpm unpacker/installer but I doubt it is needed. A new bundle format makes us more incompatible with the world. Example: someone builds a localisation for us, it won't work for Fedora, and viceversa. Fedora does not have a standard solution either, so I'm not sure where you're going with this. We have to invent something. RPM is not obviously the right solution. --scott -- ( http://cscott.net/ ) ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
Re: [sugar] [Proposal] .xot bundles, for translations
On Tue, Dec 2, 2008 at 4:26 PM, Martin Langhoff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, Dec 2, 2008 at 6:49 PM, C. Scott Ananian [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Fedora does not have a standard solution either, so I'm not sure where you're going with this. We have to invent something. RPM is not obviously the right solution. So Fedora doesn't use rpm files for localization packages? What does it use then? If I say 'yum search catalan' it returns a bunch of rpms - kde-l10n-Catalan for example. What else could this mean? Debian does the same, AFAICS... Please re-read Sayamindu's original message. Thanks. --scott -- ( http://cscott.net/ ) ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
Re: [sugar] Tentative talk schedule: Nov 19
what the hell? i don't think it's productive to separate olpc and sugarlabs in this fashion. the whole point of this was *joint* discussion/planning! and i also resent the implication that this was closed-door planning. i posted a *proposed* schedule. we're discussing it here *in public*. i found this email a tremendous step backwards. let's continue *together*, shall we? i'm a member of sugarlabs, as well as an employee of olpc -- just like you and tomeu are. --scott On 11/13/08, Marco Pesenti Gritti [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: A couple of points. * This is a Sugar Labs organized conference, OLPC specific stuff is not appropriate for it. XOcamp is in January. I edited the wiki accordingly, both the talks and the schedule. * Please don't do planning on the agenda during closed, in person meetings. #sugar-meeting is the right place to do planning. Looking forward for a day/time for a meeting there. Thanks! Marco -- ( http://cscott.net/ ) ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
Re: [sugar] SugarCamp
-1. sugarlabs and olpc have the same mission. i think it's entirely appropriate to have one day devoted to technical issues, with the participation of olpc employees (who are also sugarlabs members -- even board members). we have monday, tuesday, friday, saturday, and sunday reserved for sugarlab-specific meetings. --scott On 11/13/08, David Farning [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, Nov 14, 2008 at 7:22 AM, Tomeu Vizoso [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Fellow Sugarites, I must say that I'm pretty much surprised as to how the SugarCamp planning is being done. My personal opinion is that SugarLabs is a global organization and cannot behave as if it had headquarters in a single place because it hasn't. SL contributors are going to travel from quite distant places and they should be involved actively in the planning. OLPC has decided that their XOCamp will happen in January, and I think that our SugarCamp in November shouldn't be seen as just a prelude to that. OLPC employees can legitimately see SL as a vehicle for their product to include more features, so they would be mostly interested in technical discussions about those. But I expect the people who share the SL goals to be more ambitious and to not forget that Sugar cannot stay contained at OLPC's borders. We have the mission to bring Sugar to _all_ the kids in the world. So, talks that IMO are more appropriate for this week, along with people I'm most interested in hearing, are: - How Sugar-on-a-stick can better work for deployments such as the ones carried on by http://schoolkey.net (Caroline Meeks) - How Sugar can better work in a LTSP environment (Brendan Powers) - How SugarLabs can better work together with teachers (Yamandú Ploskonka) - How SugarLabs should communicate its message (Greg DeKoenigsberg) - How SugarLabs can make easier to contribute to it (Mel Chua) - How SugarLabs could partner with for-profits that work on related projects (Collabora on GNOME's telepathy, Nokia on PyMaemo, etc) (Robert McQueen) - How SugarLabs is going to maintain the infrastructure needed to support its own operations (Bernie Innocenti) - How SugarLabs is going to fund its own operations (Walter Bender) - How SugarLabs is going to govern itself (Walter Bender, David Farning?) - How SugarLabs is partnering with other organizations (David Farning) - etc, you get the idea. I think most of those talks could give material for discussion for at least half a day. I really think SL should make progress on non-technical areas and that this face-to-face time we are going to have is an opportunity that we shouldn't miss. Regards, Tomeu ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar How about wrapping up with a message/mission session lead by Walter and Greg on Saturday afternoon? Kind of a here is what we talked about, here is how it fits into the overall mission of Sugar Labs, and here is how we communicate that mission via our public message. That session can run all of Friday afternoon Leading into that on Friday we can work on 'playing well with others'. Staring with Mel and easy to contribute. Specific example and of partnering by Brenden and Caroline. General partnering with for-profits by Robert. General partnering/ local Sugar Labs by Walter and I. That series of session can run all afternoon and spill over into the evening for coffee and drinks. thanks david ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar -- ( http://cscott.net/ ) ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
Re: [sugar] Tentative talk schedule: Nov 19
On Thu, Nov 13, 2008 at 2:18 PM, Marco Pesenti Gritti [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, Nov 13, 2008 at 7:35 PM, C. Scott Ananian [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Personally I think the way you keep to couple them is *extremely* confusing. Red Hat people certainly participates to GNOME conferences, but don't go there to talk about their build system! I wish they would, actually. Good tools should be shared and reused. Bernie wants to talk about SugarLabs infrastructure, and Michael wants to encourage broader use of the tools which he has created. I think those talks are entirely appropriate for a joint conference -- and if you don't, I think you should be talking to Bernie and Michael about it, not me. I didn't do any filtering of the proposals sent to devel@ other than prioritizing proposals from people who would be attending in person. I'm mostly fine with Wednesday proposal. I would like the discussion about the rest of the day to be more open than you and Bernie sitting down somewhere, like your mail seemed to imply. As Greg proposed, I'd prefer if we just gave the speakers a way to fill in the slots on the wiki. I think you need to talk to Bernie about this. I'm not planning the rest of the week; I was just brought in as a consultant to coordinate the 'proposals' section. I certainly want to keep working together and my mail was an attempt to improve the way we do. Setting us artificial us-vs-them antagonism between OLPC and SugarLabs is *not* the way to improve our working together. In my opinion. Both SugarLabs and OLPC are we. --scott -- ( http://cscott.net/ ) ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
Re: [sugar] [IAEP] SugarCamp
On Thu, Nov 13, 2008 at 2:06 PM, Morgan Collett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, Nov 13, 2008 at 20:39, C. Scott Ananian [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: sugarlabs and olpc have the same mission. Yes, but you have to substitute the word 'education' for 'laptop' - I can't remember which way round :-) I think you will be very pleased by http://test.laptop.org/en/vision/mission/index.shtml which is the in-testing version of the laptop.org redesign, hopefully going live tomorrow. I find this OLPC-SugarLabs sniping very disheartening. --scott -- ( http://cscott.net/ ) ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
Re: [sugar] New laptop.org page was Re: [IAEP] SugarCamp
On Thu, Nov 13, 2008 at 3:20 PM, Yamandu Ploskonka [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I tried, it asked me for a password (no need, I'm good), but just let me remind y'all that the _minimum_ design constraint for the laptop.org page is that it shows right on the XO... The current one doesn't (or didn't when I tried to show it to somebody, using an XO, a couple weeks back. Most embarrassing...) I saw the spec we provided to the (external) website designers, and it clearly specified that testing was to be performed on an XO. fingers crossed --scott -- ( http://cscott.net/ ) ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
[sugar] Tentative talk schedule: Nov 19
In the interest of trying to make room for the unexpected around the Nov 17 G1G1 launch, I've tried to compress most of the technical talks into a single day, Wed. Nov 19. There will be plenty of flex time during the rest of the week to get to topics not covered, delve in depth, or try to hack out some prototypes. I've identified four big issues in the list of http://sugarlabs.org/go/Sugarcamp#Proposals -- ideas that have more than one speaker willing to address them -- and assigned them an hour each. The rest of the time I've grouped by person, assigning each person 30 minutes (I recommend 20 for talk, 10 for questions). I will leave it to the individual person whether they will chose to present a single one of their proposals in that time, compress all of their proposals to fit, or deed some of their time to some other proposal quite deserves more. I encourage those who will be present to lobby your favorite speakers to ensure that your favorite topic will be addressed. Refer to [[Sugarcamp#Proposals]] for details on the talks each person listed below has proposed. Wednesday: 10am: Desktop legacy compatibility. (Marco, C. Scott, possibly Saymindu by phone?) 11am: Eben Eliason / Ed Cherlin. 12pm - 2pm: lunch. 2pm: Community. (Mel Chua / Greg DeK) 3pm: Martin Langhoff / Chris Ball 4pm: Internationalization (Marco, C. Scott, possibly Saymindu by phone and/or cjb on language learning) 5pm - 7pm: dinner. 7pm: Marco / Michael Stone 8pm: C. Scott / Tomeu 9pm: Infrastructure (Bernie, Michael Stone) There are so many excellent talks that were proposed. I hope that this schedule, although compressed, encourages us to take the time to make our talks short (Je n'ai fait celle-ci plus longue que parce que je n'ai pas eu le loisir de la faire plus courte., Blaise Pascal, http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Pascal). There is time during the rest of the week to expand on our points and give the talks that don't fit on Wednesday. (Also, I hope we use the lunch and dinner time for good networking, discussion, and beer.) Does this schedule seem reasonable to others? (Esp. those I've pencilled in for talks?) If you are going to be in town, made a 9.1 proposal (or forgot to), and aren't listed above, let me know. --scott ps. I apologize for the late planning on this; things have been pretty crazy. -- ( http://cscott.net/ ) ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
Re: [sugar] Tentative talk schedule: Nov 19
On Wed, Nov 12, 2008 at 9:07 PM, C. Scott Ananian [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Does this schedule seem reasonable to others? (Esp. those I've pencilled in for talks?) If you are going to be in town, made a 9.1 proposal (or forgot to), and aren't listed above, let me know. I should have also included the information that Walter will be giving his 'Portfolio' talk at 9am on Friday. Just in case anyone was wondering about his absence from the above schedule. Oh, and we'll do our best to get all of these talks recorded, digitized, and posted for anyone not present (or enjoying an overly-leisurely lunch, say). --scott -- ( http://cscott.net/ ) ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
Re: [sugar] [IAEP] Tentative talk schedule: Nov 19
On Wed, Nov 12, 2008 at 9:29 PM, Marco Pesenti Gritti [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, Nov 13, 2008 at 3:07 AM, C. Scott Ananian [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 4pm: Internationalization (Marco, C. Scott, possibly Saymindu by phone and/or cjb on language learning) I'm not giving talks about i18n :) By golly, you're right. Well, that gives me a little slack in the schedule perhaps to use to fix whatever else I've got wrong. ;-) --scott -- ( http://cscott.net/ ) ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
Re: [sugar] [IAEP] Tentative talk schedule: Nov 19
On Thu, Nov 13, 2008 at 12:03 AM, Samuel Klein [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I hope there are gobby sessions for all events, and that they are more brainstorming and writing than presentation and recording video. No. Wednesday talks are well-structured, compressed data, idea, open question and prototype dumps. Brainstorming is scheduled for Monday, Tuesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, and Sunday. --scott -- ( http://cscott.net/ ) ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
Re: [sugar] [IAEP] Tentative talk schedule: Nov 19
On Wed, Nov 12, 2008 at 9:50 PM, Marco Pesenti Gritti [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, Nov 13, 2008 at 3:07 AM, C. Scott Ananian [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Does this schedule seem reasonable to others? (Esp. those I've pencilled in for talks?) If you are going to be in town, made a 9.1 proposal (or forgot to), and aren't listed above, let me know. There is a lot of interest about a talk on collaboration, Brendan offered to lead at least part of it. Perhaps we could make it a 2 hours slot on the other days, similar to Walter/Christian. Sorry, I'd originally left that out because we didn't have someone to lead it; I was a bit behind on my mail and didn't see Brendan's proposal/offer. Also, it seems like Yamandu will be attending; I'd missed his proposal in my original schedule as well. My current vague thinking is to group the less-technical learning-and-content-oriented talks (Yamandu's, OLE's presentation, and Chris/Michael's Uruguay report) on another day (Tuesday? Thursday? I'll have to sit down with Bernie again), and to add Yamandu-on-i18n to the i18n hour on Wed, if he'd like to make a 10-15min presentation. I think I can squeeze in 30 mins for collaboration on Wed if Brendan wants to make a formal proposal; if we all just want to sit down and brainstorm collaboration, then a 2 hour block on not-Wednesday sounds perfect. I was really hoping to get Morgs or Collabora to give a 'state of collaboration' talk to set the stage. Hopefully we can get that in January's meeting. Keep the comments coming -- it seems that no one is completely appalled by the idea of cramming all the technical talks into one day? If this level of non-dissent continues, Bernie and I will pencil in Wed as 'technical talk day' on the wiki, and folks can start adding details for their talks, trading talk slots, etc. --scott -- ( http://cscott.net/ ) ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
Re: [sugar] [IAEP] Tentative talk schedule: Nov 19
On Thu, Nov 13, 2008 at 2:23 AM, Walter Bender [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Not sure if (a) I understand how Bernie's schedule (Talk:Sugarcamp) works; but (b) Friday morning at 9am is the only time that works for Evangelina, who is able to jooin us for the Portfolio discussion. I don't think we'll need more than 90 minutes, so perhaps Christian could take the latter half of the morning for UI/design. Scott, it'd be great if you could join us. Yup, I think that matches what Bernie and I had pencilled in. We'll finish fleshing out the rest of the week's schedule tomorrow. Unless the photons in our network pipe go on strike, www.laptop.org catches fire, or Barack Obama pays a visit to 1cc, I'll be there. --scott -- ( http://cscott.net/ ) ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
Re: [sugar] Postponement of XOCamp Event to January
On Wed, Oct 29, 2008 at 9:52 PM, Ed McNierney [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The OLPC XOCamp event being planned for November 17 – 21 is being postponed until January, 2009. The Fedora FUDCON conference is in Boston on January 9 As should be clear, I'm not happy at all with how this is being handled. We will have Martin, Marco, Tomeu, and Bernie here the week of the 17th (at least). We should at least informally discuss 9.1 plans at that time. --scott -- ( http://cscott.net/ ) ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
Re: [sugar] Donations for travel to Nov 17 XOcamp, also spare bedrooms needed!
On Mon, Oct 27, 2008 at 4:34 PM, C. Scott Ananian [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: of other good projects. I'm hoping that similarly-minded people will pitch in to make the good ideas reality. [...] towards the conference, because I don't have a budget at OLPC. But I can put $1000 of my own money towards that end. It's been suggested that a paypal link would make it much easier to donate. I've set up a Paypal biz account via my fledgling publishing business (http://ahuasemigre.com) to collect donations: click through https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=_s-xclickhosted_button_id=750448 and voila! I'm also tracking the status of the contributions as well as collecting developer info (who needs help, how much it would cost) at: http://wiki.laptop.org/go/XOcamp_2/Fundraising --scott -- ( http://cscott.net/ ) ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
Re: [sugar] Sugar Digest 2008-10-27
On Mon, Oct 27, 2008 at 8:12 PM, Walter Bender [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 15. XOCamp: Marco has written three proposals for the November XOCamp. (I am working on one for the Portfolio as well.) There are many more being posted on the Sugar and Devel lists. We're trying to raise money to send more developers to the XOcamp: see: http://wiki.laptop.org/go/XOcamp_2/Fundraising This is your chance to help ensure that your favorite issues are represented by someone in person! You can adopt a specific developer and ensure that they attend. If you wanted to make a proposal before, but weren't sure how you could afford to attend, this might be a good time to go ahead and email your proposal to devel@ and sugar@ and add your name to the 'adopt a developer' list on the fundraising page. I hope the end result is a much more inclusive conference, that more completely incorporates the viewpoints of the community. Help out if you can! There's a paypal link to donate on the page above. --scott -- ( http://cscott.net/ ) ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
[sugar] Donations for travel to Nov 17 XOcamp, also spare bedrooms needed!
Hi, folks. It seems that OLPC is having some cash flow problems. We really think it's important to get as many people to the Nov 17 meetings as possible. I'd like to consider asking for donations to cover travel costs for key developers, like the sugar team: marco, tomeu, erikos, and morgs. The cost of their travel would be about $2500. Including school server developers (douglas), kernel developers (deepak), translation team (sayamindu), and firmware (mitch) would probably double that, and there might be more expenses if we can't find homes to host them all. Please email me, privately if you'd like, if you'd be interested in contributing. If you'd like to earmark funds for a specific developer (maybe one not on my list) or team (sugar, kernel, translation, etc), let me know. We'll also probably need people to volunteer to host them when they are in Boston. If you've got an extra bedroom you'd be willing to share, could you respond to this email? Thanks! I hope that with the community pulling for us, we'll actually be able to make this event *more* inclusive than if OLPC were paying for all travel itself. Please feel free to cc the lists if you'd like to help out, to help show the community that we *can* do this ourselves. I'm not as interested in seeing flames about how OLPC spends it money because (a) it's not my job, but I can understand the economy's not great now, and (b) the alternative is to cancel or downgrade the conference. I'd prefer not to see (b), and I'm willing to put up my own money to make it happen. --scott (writing as an OLPC community member, not an OLPC employee) -- ( http://cscott.net/ ) ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
Re: [sugar] Donations for travel to Nov 17 XOcamp, also spare bedrooms needed!
On Mon, Oct 27, 2008 at 3:01 PM, C. Scott Ananian [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: meetings as possible. I'd like to consider asking for donations to cover travel costs for key developers, like the sugar team: marco, tomeu, erikos, and morgs. The cost of their travel would be about $2500. Including school server developers (douglas), kernel [...] Please email me, privately if you'd like, if you'd be interested in contributing. If you'd like to earmark funds for a specific developer (maybe one not on my list) or team (sugar, kernel, translation, etc), let me know. I'll start off my pledging $1000 of my own money to the costs of getting the sugar team here. I'm not rich, but I'm at least earning more than a grad student's salary now, and I'd like to ensure that at least two of them can book tickets tonight. (I could use some help on hosting them, though.) --scott -- ( http://cscott.net/ ) ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
Re: [sugar] Donations for travel to Nov 17 XOcamp, also spare bedrooms needed!
On Mon, Oct 27, 2008 at 3:01 PM, C. Scott Ananian [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, folks. It seems that OLPC is having some cash flow problems. By which I mean, can't get travel funding approved. Sorry if the tone sounded alarmist. OLPC is a nonprofit, it's not some big company rolling in cash. There are plenty of good projects which OLPC can't afford to do; that doesn't mean they are not good projects. There are plenty of good developers out there which OLPC can't afford to hire. We already ask for volunteer development help; there's no reason OLPC should be ashamed to ask for conference help, or help with any number of other good projects. I'm hoping that similarly-minded people will pitch in to make the good ideas reality. I'm proud to be both a member of the OLPC community (meaning, what I do on weekends, and in my spare time, without compensation), as well as an employee of OLPC. As someone passionate about the mission of OLPC, I'm honored to contribute to helping bring other developers together to advance the mission. I can't put $1000 of OLPC budget towards the conference, because I don't have a budget at OLPC. But I can put $1000 of my own money towards that end. (I actually believe in a something slightly stronger, which is that OLPC should *not try* to replace the local community for many of these tasks: OLPC doesn't scale, but local community groups do. For future insight into the desirability of local Searcher organization, as opposed to centralized OLPC will plan everything methods, see the excellent book, The White Man's Burden: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ABookSourcesisbn=0143038826 ) --scott -- ( http://cscott.net/ ) ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
Re: [sugar] 9.1 proposal: View source key everywhere
On Thu, Oct 23, 2008 at 9:33 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: sure, that's fine. but i think we need to keep thinking about how to support of non-, or not-fully-sugarized applications with every new feature we do (as well as with every revision of old features). I've got a half-baked idea about support 'view source' in unmodified applications using a similar mechanism to the one I'd considering for Translate. This might give a better 'default' behavior for some activities written in python, but I like Tomeu's approach for the rest. And the general idea of having a standard mechanism to register your own 'view source' handler is great. Maybe I'll get some time to hack that up before Nov 17. In any case, I look forward to Tomeu's talk! --scott -- ( http://cscott.net/ ) ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
Re: [sugar] 9.1 Proposal: Printing support
On Tue, Oct 21, 2008 at 11:01 PM, Justin Gallardo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Over at the OSL, we were able to get new printers showing in the MeshBox, and had just started working on coming up with some interface for configuration. We had some hang ups with some of the code used to detect printers over avahi, but other than that things seem to work. http://staff.osuosl.org/~jirwin/sugar_printers.png A fun picture of sugar actually displaying 100 some odd printers(not a mockup). Could you prepare a short presentation on this work? We can arrange to present it remotely, via telephone, or whatever, but this seems like an alternative we should consider. Bird in the hand, etc. --scott -- ( http://cscott.net/ ) ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
Re: [sugar] 9.1 Proposal: Printing support
On Tue, Oct 21, 2008 at 8:57 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: can's mdns/avahi help with discovery? it'd be a shame to have to manually configure a server address or name. DNS-SD is the Right Answer (which is not exactly the same thing as mdns). But getting a standard one school server, and a classroom of XOs solution in place for 9.1 using a standard name (printer, say) would be a good first step; we can handle autodiscovery (via CUPs or something else) for 9.2. I hope it is clear that I'm not saying that we will *never* do autodiscovery or more fancy printing features; I'm just trying to ensure that *something* useful to *someone* lands in 9.1, ideally in a way that isn't completely broken from a design perspective. There's a lot of activity work to be done to enable printing from the various activities; I'd like that to be able to happen concurrently in the 9.2 timeframe with efforts to improve printer discovery, setup, etc. We should not ignore the fact that OLPCs are deployed in places like Birmingham and Montevideo, which have abundant access to paper and printers. --scott -- ( http://cscott.net/ ) ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
Re: [sugar] World readable documentation for Chandler rearchitecture
On Mon, Oct 20, 2008 at 3:50 PM, Jeffrey Harris [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I just set up automatically generated documentation for Chandler's rearchitecture project at: http://people.osafoundation.org/~jeffrey/rearch_documentation/ At the moment, the script that builds that (Sphinx) isn't automatically run after a check in, but I'll update it periodically until we make a more permanent home. The initial page doesn't yet have any sensible organization (it just grabs *.txt and puts in links to documents), but each sub-page should be reasonably readable. Very interesting stuff. I notice that, at the moment, there are lots of references to 'trellis'; I'd love to see some documentation about the exact what, why, and how of this. --scott -- ( http://cscott.net/ ) ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
Re: [sugar] 9.1 Proposal: Persistent activity storage (Bert Freudenberg)
On Tue, Oct 21, 2008 at 6:58 PM, Michael Stone [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I want to make sure we don't slow down the launch time without a very good reason. Well, how much risk and how much of Marco's, my, and Tomeu's time do you think we should squander on supporting hacks to make activities launch quickly? A decent amount of time seems reasonable. Activity startup time is a big user-visible concern. But we've drifted from the subject line. --scott -- ( http://cscott.net/ ) ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
Re: [sugar] World readable documentation for Chandler rearchitecture
On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 11:54 AM, Ivan Krstić [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Oct 22, 2008, at 11:39 AM, C. Scott Ananian wrote: I notice that, at the moment, there are lots of references to 'trellis'; I'd love to see some documentation about the exact what, why, and how of this. Trellis is Philip Eby's simplified, pseudo-STM based async processing system for Python: http://pypi.python.org/pypi/Trellis Cute! Better Chandler doc references to Trellis would still be nice. From the Chandler docs I get a vague idea that Trellis is being used to keep various bits of data up-to-date, and I *think* the 'current time' is treated as a trellis variable as well, but a big picture overview could be helpful. Is there a regular second-by-second tick which is being propagated through Trellis to trigger events, or what? --scott -- ( http://cscott.net/ ) ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
Re: [sugar] 9.1 Proposal: Printing support
On 10/21/08, Martin Langhoff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sat, Oct 18, 2008 at 9:24 AM, C. Scott Ananian [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: *But*, we should be able to: * Print postscript (or pdf, or whatever, just pick *one*) to school server via CUP (IPP?), and install a decent selection of printer drivers on the school server. Control panel for 'default printer name', fixed to 'XS' by default. Ok - adding the XS side of this is something we can do in the 9.1 lifecycle. As I mentioned in my other email, the mechanical part of getting printing done is not the most interesting part of the job. It's the I think we're on the same page here. For 9.1, what's the *least* work we can do to get *something* done on the printing front? Once the basics are out there, hopefully we'll have community motivated to take it the rest of the way, whatever that is. From the comments here, it seems like the no-discovery no-server CUPS client library could work with a fixed server name (or control panel with IP address box to fill in), and we can take it from there gradually. If anyone wants to flesh out a solid proposal, though, I'm all ears. A proof of concept one way or the other would be *very* useful. --scott -- ( http://cscott.net/ ) ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
Re: [sugar] Feature freeze for 0.84
On Fri, Oct 17, 2008 at 1:19 PM, Luke Faraone [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I've been working on packaging Sugar for Ubuntu, and have looked forward to what will be Sugar (and Ubuntu )'s next release cycle. Per http://sugarlabs.org/go/ReleaseTeam/Roadmap , it seems that the first release candidate of Sugar will be out on Feb. 13th. Afterward, I take it there will only be bugfixes until the final? This is important from a packaging point of view, because Ubuntu's roadmap is very closely aligned with Sugar's, our feature freeze (after which non-bugfixes will require an exception, which takes a while to apply for) will be around the 18th of February. I can't speak for Sugar, but, while OLPC has informally named a March release date for 9.1 (where by informally I mean, I've argued strongly for this), I don't know that we've committed firmly to such a date yet. Our original goal was to synchronize with Fedora's release schedule, but Fedora's release schedule has been thrown into some disarray recently, and I don't think a concrete plan for F11's release will occur before F10 is released (on 2008-11-25). Since OLPC is based on Fedora, it may make sense to sync up with F11. On the other hand, F10 slipped 2 months; OLPC might decide that we don't want to slip that much just to match up. I expect that a concrete schedule will be hammered out during the Nov 17 joint OLPC 9.1/Sugarlabs 0.84 planning meeting. I hope that OLPC's schedule will not drift much from Sugarlab's, because it is counterproductive for sugarlabs to be freezing while OLPC is adding features, or vice-versa. We should certainly keep the Ubuntu (and Debian, and Fedora) release schedules in mind when we pick dates. If OLPC's 9.1 release is planned for March, I expect that Sugarlab's freeze schedule will be consistent with Ubuntu's freeze (and, by extension, that OLPC will base 9.1 on Fedora 10 and not try to sync up with F11 in this cycle). But it is possible that we will opt for a later freeze, or that actual development status will cause a slip. In that case I expect that shipping the latest OLPC 8.2.x point release (sugarlabs 0.82.x) available at that time in Ubuntu would be best. Informally, we expect that there might be an 8.2.x point release in December or so, which matches up well with school schedules in the Southern Hemisphere. Finally, a proper decision would also need to take into account post-release update mechanisms in the various releases. In the Fedora world, it is fairly easy to push an updated sugar into the 'updates' channel for the latest stable release. In the debian world, people expect 'stable' to be more-or-less out-of-date, and 'testing' is a reasonable way for people to get the absolute latest sugar if they need it. I don't know exactly what Ubuntu's post-release update policy is, but it might best *not* to try to chase/push the bleeding edge, but take whatever the latest *released* sugar is as of your freeze date, so that your bugfixes can be for Ubuntu bugs only, and you're not trying to follow the bleeding edge of sugar development/bugfixing at the same time Ubuntu is trying to stabilize. --scott -- ( http://cscott.net/ ) ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
Re: [sugar] Announce: Screencast activity.
On Fri, Oct 17, 2008 at 3:08 AM, Chris Ball [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: * Recordmydesktop is using /tmp as an intermediate location, which means that a long screencast runs the XO into OOM (or worse). export TMPDIR=$HOME/instance in your wrapper should help a lot here. * It reuses the icon from Words. Is inkscape not awesome enough for you? Is your wife not an artist? ;-) * We should avoid having the activity itself be present in the videos; perhaps by minimizing it immediately before starting recording, and then setting up a globally-bound keyboard shortcut for stop? gtk-recordmydesktop just minimizes itself after you click record. That should work fine on the XO as well; matchbox/other wm will chose an appropriate window to show. Ideally, you'd use the same panel-widget for 'stop' as gtk-recordmydesktop does. The Frame should really be a real panel widget and support the same standard notification area mechanism that gnome-panel (and friends) do. --scott -- ( http://cscott.net/ ) ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
Re: [sugar] Another Journal Ideas
Yes, what you've described is more-or-less the plan of record: don't store any metadata which can be extracted from the actual content, and use plugins in the indexing service to extract interesting metadata from a variety of real formats. The few bits of metadata which can't be representing in existing document formats (non-path tags, action id, etc) will be stored in xattrs, which are compatible with all modern Unix systems (including Mac OS X). They may be lost during transport to non-XOs, which is why we'll try to minimize the number of these bits as much as possible. This also makes us as robust as possible against indexer failures: we should always be able to rebuild the index using nothing but the information on disk (and possibly taking advantage of better indexers and metadata extractors when we do so). Non-local search is possible (see part 4 of my journal screencast), but probably not transparently: you will have to select a particular friend whose journal you want to look in. This seems more reasonable (to me, at least) in an environment without perfect connectivity: if you try to search everyone's journal all the time, it's hard to know whether you didn't find any matches for your search because there really weren't any, or if the person who had the matching document wasn't on line. If you explicitly selected the person to search, it can be made a lot more obvious whether or not their journal is available to search at this moment in time. (Where available to search may mean cached on a local schoolserver; it doesn't necessarily have to mean, my friend's XO is turned on and connected to the internet right now.) --scott -- ( http://cscott.net/ ) ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
Re: [sugar] Call for Proposals for OLPC miniconference November 17-21, 2008
On Thu, Oct 16, 2008 at 6:05 PM, Greg Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: An OLPC miniconference will be held November 17-21, 2008 at our Cambridge offices (10th floor, 1 Cambridge Center, Cambridge, MA, USA) [...] Please submit proposals for topics to cover. These may include, but are not limited to: [...] Please submit 200 word descriptions of topics or sessions on the event page [2] or by emailing your ideas to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . I would suggest that people cc' devel@ and sugar@ as well, so that we can see what has been proposed (and encourage people to make proposals who have not already). Let me suggest using a subject line like 9.1 Proposal: short summary, and putting the body of the proposal in the body of the message. Feel free to break with netiquette and respond with me, toos - I expect a number of people will want to present ideas related to (say) translation, so if everyone interested in the topic gives a me, too, we'll know how much time to allocate to the topic and how many presentations we might squeeze out of attendees: one person giving an hour long talk, four people giving 5 minute lightning proposals, or what. I'll lead off with a number of my own proposals in emails following this one. Some of these I've got one 30 second idea about, and I'd love to hear someone step up to present a fuller roadmap. Others I've got detailed plans for -- but I want to hear your counter-proposals. So I'll lead off, but please don't be shy with your own proposals, 'me, too's or 'I'd like to present an alternative's. Also: MAKE PROPOSALS EVEN IF YOU CAN'T MAKE THE MEETINGS. In the past we've made various arrangements for remote presentations, ranging from having someone give a talk via conference call as we paged through slides, to having someone local present a remote person's slides, to harrassing someone who will attend to give a presentation on an otherwise unrepresented topic. I got informal agreement from Ed that nothing will get on the olpc 9.1 roadmap without having at least a brief timeslot allocated to it at the planning meeting, where the costs/feasibility/etc can be discussed -- so if you want a feature in 9.1, please make sure we get a proposal on it. Thanks! --scott [Greg Dek: could you solicit proposals from the Fedora side? Presentations on new Fedora goodness we could take better advantage of, on infrastructure stuff, or even on things like the F11 release schedule would be very helpful!] -- ( http://cscott.net/ ) ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
Re: [sugar] Feature freeze for 0.84
On Fri, Oct 17, 2008 at 2:24 PM, Marco Pesenti Gritti [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Actually feature freeze is 21 December. We might decide to push it off a bit, but I don't think it will go after 18 February. So I think we are good in respect of Ubuntu schedule! Hm. Looks like OLPC will skip 0.84 entirely then and take 0.86 or so. I suppose we'll hammer this out at the planning meetings. --scott -- ( http://cscott.net/ ) ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
[sugar] 9.1 Proposal: Journal, reloaded.
As described at http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Journal_reloaded, I've been working on some next generation Journal code, borrowing liberally from ideas presented by many people. I will present the current status of the work, solicit ideas and feedback, and propose a roadmap for getting as much as possible into 9.1 (and which parts are likely to miss the 9.1 boat). I encourage proposals of other Journal ideas, suggestions for concrete comparison usability tests, etc. I'm actually hoping to have working code sufficiently in advance of the meeting that counter-proposals will be able to be presented as patches, so ideally we can work them all out and see how they fare. --scott -- ( http://cscott.net/ ) ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
[sugar] 9.1 Proposal: Legacy compatibility.
I'd like to present a few areas where sugar can play nice with others, including: * replacing the matchbox window manager, to provide better multiple-window support for legacy apps (think of the 'gimp', running as multiple windows without one full-screen activity area aka virtual desktop) * making sugar behave well when run in non-full-screen-mode under metacity. This includes refactoring home/friends/mesh view as operations on root window, so they make sense in a multiwindow setup. (It's been suggested that looking at the xpenguins code is instructive for understanding how nautilus,etc arrange their root window.) * Switch to standard freedesktop.org startup notification mechanism: ticket #5271 * Implement freedesktop.org notifications mechanism for alerts (low battery, low disk space, available software update) * Use standard fd.o notification area in frame -- I think this would also address cjb's desire to put the 'stop' button for recordmydesktop in the frame. I don't think I will actually have time to work on many of these areas in the 9.1 time frame, so I especially encourage interested/motivated parties to make concrete proposals on pieces of this work. (Or suggest other areas we should improve.) --scott -- ( http://cscott.net/ ) ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
[sugar] 9.1 Proposal: Improving antitheft
I'd like our antitheft support to be more of a feature which G1G1 users could elect to enable, if they like. This involved making it much more visible and configurable, most likely putting it in the control panel. The idea is if you are taking a trip or leaving home for a few days, you could turn on theft-deterrence before you go, get some added tracking/remote-kill features, and then turn it off later when you get home. Other topics: * ECO fix and EC improvements * Security control panel, with am I stolen and lease renewal buttons: ticket #1502, ticket #6428 * olpcrd work: ticket #7397 * Revoke root capabilities when booted with security enabled: ticket #7562 --scott -- ( http://cscott.net/ ) ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
[sugar] 9.1 Proposal: Update improvements
I'd like to make a presentation on how our current update mechanism works, and outline a plan for some improvements. * Real COW for pristine versions, allowing... ticket #3581 * ...binary-diff updates over http (avoiding rsync in many cases) ticket #4259, etc * Integration of core OS updates with software update control panel: ticket #7618 * Integration of software updates with notification system * Incremental updates of activity bundles (only changed files) * Send back statistical data when checking for updates (batmon, etc) ticket #4594, ticket #6447 --scott -- ( http://cscott.net/ ) ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
Re: [sugar] Feature freeze for 0.84
On Fri, Oct 17, 2008 at 3:05 PM, Marco Pesenti Gritti [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, Oct 17, 2008 at 8:54 PM, C. Scott Ananian [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, Oct 17, 2008 at 2:24 PM, Marco Pesenti Gritti [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Actually feature freeze is 21 December. We might decide to push it off a bit, but I don't think it will go after 18 February. So I think we are good in respect of Ubuntu schedule! Hm. Looks like OLPC will skip 0.84 entirely then and take 0.86 or so. I suppose we'll hammer this out at the planning meetings. Why? If you see my answer to your mail, I'm saying that I'm favourable to a sleep of one month. 21 January, if you are serious about releasing in March, seems like a decent date. Also, 0.86 will be in September, so I can't see why OLPC would possibly skip 0.84... Let's hammer this out in person at the planning meeting, because it depends on OLPC picking a release date. I've been arguing for March, but I don't think there is consensus on that yet. If OLPC aims for early March, and you slip Sugar feature freeze to late January, then you're right, we're reasonably consistent. If OLPC decides to aim for April or later, however, then it seems we're getting out of sync. I'd like to avoid the situation we had in 8.2, where sugar was in string freeze while OLPC was still in active development, with lots of major features not even written yet. We worked that out very successfully, via lots of special exceptions to the string freeze, but I'd like to try to avoid having to go that way in 9.1 if we can. It would be better if we all just agree on some dates. --scott -- ( http://cscott.net/ ) ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
Re: [sugar] 9.1 Proposal: Legacy compatibility.
On Fri, Oct 17, 2008 at 3:25 PM, Marco Pesenti Gritti [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, Oct 17, 2008 at 9:23 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: can we stop referring to anything non-sugary as a legacy app. i'd submit that we all use dozens of such apps every day, most of which are in no danger of going away anytime soon. :-) I'm using standard desktop applications :) I agree totally with the sentiments here. I got in the habit of calling them legacy apps back when OLPC was convinced that it was going to be the largest linux distro overnight, and the world would bow to our standards. Really, what I mean is dogfooding Sugar -- I want to use Sugar as my normal everyday desktop environment. Maybe I should retitle my proposal, Making Sugar fit to feed to dogs. ;-) --scott -- ( http://cscott.net/ ) ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
Re: [sugar] Joyride is open for development!
2008/10/17 Marco Pesenti Gritti [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On Fri, Oct 17, 2008 at 9:14 PM, Chris Ball [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The current plan is to wait until F10 is released (end of November) before rebasing Joyride onto it. But the decision to rebase has been made? Well, I believe Michael, Chris and I are in favor of it, and I haven't heard any strong arguments against doing so. (Then again, I'm not particularly looking forward to the work!) The real question is whether we're going to settle with F10, or try to follow Rawhide or even to wait for F11. My strong opinion is that 9.1 should be based on F10, and I don't yet have a strong opinion on what 9.2 should follow. I think dgilmore has argued that we should be trying to stay absolutely current with Fedora, so that we have a chance to make changes before Fedora stabilizes, and so that every Fedora release has the absolute latest Sugar. (I think we've got enough problems fixing our own bugs, and I don't want to be making changes and trying to stabilize at the same time Fedora is making changes to try to do so.) Anyway, that argument is still open. And if anyone would like to make the strong argument that we should *not* rebase on F10, they should do so before F10 is released and we start trying to move joyride to it. But unless anyone objects the plan is to move to F10 ASAP so we're not trying to shake all the bugs out of the rebase the month before we're scheduled to release. --scott -- ( http://cscott.net/ ) ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
Re: [sugar] 9.1 Proposal: Legacy compatibility.
On Fri, Oct 17, 2008 at 3:45 PM, Sayamindu Dasgupta [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Apart from the window manager stuff - something I will probably be working on is support for standard .desktop files - which are used to generate the main menu entries in standard desktops. Any .desktop file installed in the usual places should show up in the activity list, so everytime you are using an XO for dogfooding, you don't have to fire up Terminal/xterm/insert your favourite terminal emulator here to run an application. I should ideally have some code to show by the time of the camp. Cool! There are two parts of this, I guess: making Sugar recognize .desktop files, and generating .desktop files from Sugar activity.info files. Like I briefly outlined in my previous message, you could have the activity registry export a ~/.sugar-xdg directory (say) whether via FUSE or by old-fashioned write the files to the filesystem and keep them up to date and with an appropriate XDG_DATA_DIR we can interoperate both ways. --scott -- ( http://cscott.net/ ) ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
[sugar] 9.1 Proposal: Security and Isolation
I'm proposing a talk I really want Michael Stone to give. But I'm willing to lead off with a short talk on things I'd like to see in 9.1: * Implementation of P_SF_CORE, P_SF_RUN * Validating new versions of an activity. * Mechanism to validate updates to loopholed activities allow user to manage exceptions * Persistent activity storage * NSS modules for rainbow users and for olpc/root users --scott -- ( http://cscott.net/ ) ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
Re: [sugar] 9.1 Proposal: Legacy compatibility.
On Fri, Oct 17, 2008 at 3:52 PM, Marco Pesenti Gritti [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The way it's done right now is to copy mime information to ~/.local at installation time. I know. I personally don't like requiring an installation step, and I think it might be easier to keep the random bits of XDG info up-to-date if they weren't mixed in with non-sugar activities. But this is a fine implementation. --scott -- ( http://cscott.net/ ) ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
[sugar] 9.1 Proposal: Translation improvements
I expect Sayamindu can probably give a better talk than me on this. But I'm willing to give a short talk on translation things I'd like to see in 9.1: * multiple languages, multiple places: translation system should look in local, then activity, then system translation tables, then repeat for each in a set of fallback languages (eg, quechua, spanish, english) * separable translation packs * click-to-translate: wiki-like editing of translatable labels in the UI Time permitting, I might be able to give a demo of click-to-translate for unmodified GTK apps, based on the journal embedding work I recently did. --scott -- ( http://cscott.net/ ) ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
[sugar] 9.1 Proposal: Asynchronous internet
I've wanted to see a consistent off-line caching architecture in our system for a while. Some ideas: * Integration of wwwoffle with small local cache * Content bundles to seed that cache * Mechanism to request downloads later Basically, I'd like to unify the Wikibrowse activity, library content bundles, and a user-controllable off-line cache into one consistent framework, integrated with the XS but also usable standalone. Installing a content bundle should be almost exactly the same thing as installing new content into the offline cache, with only some small hook for making it appear in the XO home page. Much of the fancy tricks which Wikibrowse does should be in the offline caching framework; the Wikibrowse activity itself would mostly just consist of the article-selection mechanism: *which* pages we should grab and push into the offline cache. Finally, there should be a mechanism for a teacher to efficiently collect requests for unavailable content from the students, possible do some filtering to remove objectionable requests, take those requests to the nearest town with internet access, download the requested content, take it back to the school, and distribute the content to the students (possibly by just installing it on the school server). --scott -- ( http://cscott.net/ ) ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
Re: [sugar] 9.1 Proposal: Translation improvements
On Fri, Oct 17, 2008 at 4:03 PM, Benjamin M. Schwartz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: C. Scott Ananian wrote: I expect Sayamindu can probably give a better talk than me on this. But I'm willing to give a short talk on translation things I'd like to see in 9.1: * multiple languages, multiple places: translation system should look in local, then activity, then system translation tables, then repeat for each in a set of fallback languages (eg, quechua, spanish, english) * separable translation packs * click-to-translate: wiki-like editing of translatable labels in the UI * Consideration of the security implications of separable translation packs. That should probably be pushed at least partly into the Security proposals for 9.1 talk -- unless you have a concrete proposal you'd like to present? I don't have any specific ideas myself for security other than that it should be very easy to *uninstall* the translation pack (revert to a previous version?) if it turns out to be unhelpful. The security considerations seem very similar to those for activity updates, which I've been twisting Michael's arm about. --scott -- ( http://cscott.net/ ) ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
[sugar] 9.1 Proposal: Fedora integration
This is another talk I'd really rather someone else give, but I can give a brief talk on our current status problems desires if it is helpful. OLPC has forks of a number of Fedora packages, for a number of reasons. We've been trying to keep better track of the what why, at http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Distro_version_migration_nastiness (great page name, eh? ;-) There are a number of tools that could make manging this divergence and pushing changes upstream easier. I've talked some recently with J5 about work he's been doing on this front. To start with: some sort of notification mechanism to let us know if a new upstream release has occurred for a package we have forked would be invaluable, as would the ability to easily generate lists of forked packages and see the exact patches applied. Making it easier to apply the OLPC packaging patches to new upstream versions would help, too. Tools to automatically monitor dependencies, so that we can immediately detect when perl sneaks back into our build, and act to get rid of it. Better integration of Red Hat bugzilla and OLPC trac. J5 has also mentioned workflow tools which would make it easier to guide new OLPC developers through tasks like fork a Fedora package for OLPC, apply the OLPC patch, and notify the upstream developer. I can present some of these ideas, and solicit attendees to go off and write tools to improve the situation. ;-) But if someone wants to present a concrete proposal for how I plan to make Fedora integration better for 9.1 I'd love it. --scott -- ( http://cscott.net/ ) ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
Re: [sugar] 9.1 Proposal: Asynchronous internet
On Fri, Oct 17, 2008 at 4:05 PM, C. Scott Ananian [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Installing a content bundle should be almost exactly the same thing as installing new content into the offline cache, with only some small hook for making it appear in the XO home page. Much of the fancy I had a number of other things listed in my 9.1.0 to-do list under library improvements which could get absorbed here: * The current library bundle API is a mess, doesn't match the documentation on the wiki, is inconsistent with the activity.info format, etc. * Merging content and activities -- a bundle ought to be able to have *both* a library.info *and* an activity.info * Using a content format which is consistent with offline internet content -- more or less consider installing content files as pushing stuff into an offline cache * Dynamic generation of the top-level home page so we don't need to run the indexer after installing content bundles. --scott -- ( http://cscott.net/ ) ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
Re: [sugar] 9.1 Proposal: Journal, reloaded.
On Fri, Oct 17, 2008 at 2:59 PM, C. Scott Ananian [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As described at http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Journal_reloaded, I've been working on some next generation Journal code, borrowing liberally Other ideas from my Journal improvements to-do list: * Proper display of 'new versions' of activities * Direct execution of activities from datastore (avoid installation step) ticket #7713 * Ability to have multiple versions of an activity installed concurrently. (API work necessary: ticket #7713) --scott -- ( http://cscott.net/ ) ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
[sugar] 9.1 Proposal: Printing support
We should consider adding basic Print support for 9.1. In the past this has foundered on questions like, what brand(s) of printers? what connection mechanism? It seems impossible to support every printer and every connection mechanism in a reasonable amount of NAND space. *But*, we should be able to: * Print postscript (or pdf, or whatever, just pick *one*) to school server via CUP (IPP?), and install a decent selection of printer drivers on the school server. Control panel for 'default printer name', fixed to 'XS' by default. * Add basic printing support to Write, Read, and Browse; set PRINTER env variable. * for future, add support to Paint, Record, etc. for 9.1. Again, I can give a quick talk just restating the above, and hopefully spurring a discussion about how much work this would or would not be and whether we can afford to do this for 9.1 (or can't afford not to do it), but I'd love it if someone would volunteer to 'own' the issue and make a more concrete proposal, present a demo, investigate other issues involved, etc. --scott -- ( http://cscott.net/ ) ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
Re: [sugar] [9.1 Proposal] i18n and l10n: 9.1 and beyond
On Fri, Oct 17, 2008 at 4:29 PM, Sayamindu Dasgupta [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: c) Language packs: The current system of language packs is not very reliable (it overwrites the original translations in the system, installations cannot be easily undone, no versioning, etc). I want to switch to a RPM based language pack system for 9.1, which will be easier to deploy (especially if the customization key mechanism gets support for RPM). This will require support for multiple locale directories, and I'll talk about that as well (Ubuntu uses a similar approach - I plan to reuse their patches if possible). We've talked about this before on sugar@ I think, and we'll no doubt talk more at the XOcamp, but I prefer reusing as much of the 'activity bundle' mechanisms as possible, so that language packs can be installed/removed/upgraded just like activity and content bundles. Mostly this means supporting language packs which are installed in /home, not just ones installed in /, but I'd like to think about unifying the various bundles into a consistent format. --scott -- ( http://cscott.net/ ) ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
Re: [sugar] 9.1 Proposal: Translation improvements
On Fri, Oct 17, 2008 at 4:31 PM, Sayamindu Dasgupta [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gah - I just submitted a proposal ;-). Maybe we can have a joint talk ? Multiple talks on the same topic are great! There's no problem there. Marco's going to give a talk on the legacy app support and I hope you'll give a brief demo of your work there, too. I'll talk a bit, you'll talk a bit, then we'll all discuss, it will be great! (And to others reading: just because there's already been a proposal on a topic doesn't mean you shouldn't make a similar proposal if you've got something new to add! We'll schedule a session and we'll group all the related talks together and it will be wonderful.) --scott -- ( http://cscott.net/ ) ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
Re: [sugar] Tagged Journal Proposal
On Wed, Oct 15, 2008 at 11:56 PM, Gary C Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm not a fan of lots of little / characters everywhere (fine if a user want to type them in the unified text search area to look somewhere specific), but you could show entries that came (or are) outside of the local datastore by using different shaped tag icons that hint at the differences between a path tags, and arbitrary tags: Ooh, I like the look of that a lot. It does seem like it would be a little harder to learn that typing '/' gives that magic shaped tag, but maybe tag-completion does that for us by magic. ie, in a context where foo/ makes sense, typing footab will give you the slash-shaped foo. Now, how to code that in GTK... (sigh) Maybe splitting the widget into body and 'cap' will make dealing with non-rectangular widgets less painful. --scott -- ( http://cscott.net/ ) ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
Re: [sugar] [olpc-office-announce] Audio from demo of Scott's next-gen journal ideas, noon, 10/15/2008
On Wed, Oct 15, 2008 at 8:15 PM, C. Scott Ananian [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Wed, Oct 15, 2008 at 6:53 PM, C. Scott Ananian [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The slides from my talk are at: http://dev.laptop.org/git?p=users/cscott/journal2;a=blob_plain;f=journal2-talk.odp;hb=HEAD PDF version at: http://dev.laptop.org/~cscott/journal2-talk.pdf I've updated the slides at those URLs so that the final bits of the presentation make more sense, even if you're not watching a live demo as you read them. Thanks for all the screencast suggestions; recordmydesktop has won my patronage. I've got to go paint some walls and assemble ikea furniture right now, but expect a screencast tomorrow. Screencasts up! http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Journal_reloaded --scott -- ( http://cscott.net/ ) ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
Re: [sugar] Tagged Journal Proposal
On Wed, Oct 15, 2008 at 8:26 PM, Benjamin M. Schwartz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | Proposal (off the cuff, please poke holes in this): We might beef up | the HIG in the area of tagging, and even suggest a set of canonical | tags for various types of content. (Localized, of course.) Combining | this with Scott's path-tags, we might introduce Images/, Videos/, | Documents/, and Audio/ tags in such a way that we get the best of both | worlds. The system can automatically file things away in a | reasonable subdirectory of the Journal, but the kids can always find | *anything* they've done, in chronological order, by looking in the | Journal itself (before selecting one of these path-tags as a query). Please don't conflate a good idea with a bad one. Activities providing localized metadata (both tags and key:value pairs) automatically could be a very good thing. Even better would be internationalization: if Activities use specific machine-readable words, then when objects are passed around, those words can be localized for each user's Journal. This is completely independent from the path tags, which would be useful only when trying to maintain compatibility with non-Journal filesystems, and are tremendously confusing otherwise. Heh, Ben doesn't like path tags, it looks like. ;-) As far as I'm concerned, whether it's Images/ or Images is a tiny implementation detail; I don't care much either way. But I'm not convinced that Images and Video etc are useful tags to add; both of these are already available via the What searches (ie, implicit in mime-type info). Someone mentioned that facebook adds magic image tags based on *recognizing the faces of your friends* -- that seems like a much better working example. If Record can automatically add a Tom tag to my pictures of Tom, that would *rock*. --scott -- ( http://cscott.net/ ) ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
Re: [sugar] Meeting about the journal
On Wed, Oct 15, 2008 at 8:37 PM, Marco Pesenti Gritti [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I chatted a bit with Eben on how to go forward on the Journal, and we think it would be good to make it *the* topic for tomorrow design meeting. Are you able to make it? It's at 11.30 your time, on irc. There are two main things that I really want to figure out: * What is the actual UI going to look like. The tagging system you are proposing is really nice and it would good to start iterating on mockups for it, so that we can get Eben and Christian signoffs :) * How we are going to integrate it in the code base. In particular activity API break (or compatibility) is something we will need to nail down soon. Do you think your ideas are mature enough for this kind of discussion? Or do you need more time to evolve the prototype before starting the actual implementation discussion? It's not premature, but we probably won't nail down the answer yet. I've already got mockups and more, but there are some corner cases I don't know the answers for. Activities can just use GtkFileChooser. Someone should write an adapter to bridge for activities which expect the old Journal interface, but I'm not quite ready to start working on that yet. Maybe in a week or two. Anyway, we can discuss this more tomorrow am. I'll be in at work tomorrow am; poke me or one of the early risers on IRC (pgf, erikg, etc) if I don't remember to log in, tune in, etc. --scott -- ( http://cscott.net/ ) ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
[sugar] Reminder: Demo of next-gen journal ideas *tomorrow noon* @ 1cc
On Wed, Oct 8, 2008 at 2:41 PM, C. Scott Ananian [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'll be giving a demo of some next-generation journal ideas (and code) at noon Wednesday at OLPC's 1cc offices. I'll make sure to have it recorded, and you can expect it posted online shortly afterwards (for all those not in the Cambridge area). A taste to whet your appetite: http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Experiments_with_unordered_paths http://dev.laptop.org/git?p=users/cscott/journal2;a=blob_plain;f=research/cscott-journal-proposal.pdf;hb=HEAD http://dev.laptop.org/~cscott/journal-ss.png http://dev.laptop.org/~cscott/journal-ss-2.png http://dev.laptop.org/git/users/cscott/journal2 When I spoke to the GNOME folks yesterday, my talk also touched on tag cd, olpcfs, comparison of desktop search engines, RSS, OpenSearch, Ferraris, and application launch protocols. No promises, though. I don't even promise to have slides. I can promise to talk about journal security bitfrost and evil linker tricks now. I can't yet promise to talk about opensearch and stupidly-basic-collaboration-we-still-don't-have, but I'm hoping that a few more hours of hacking will yield sufficient demoware for that. I'm hoping to have slides, so that I can recycle them for a talk in Peru next week. Again: this talk is *tomorrow noon* at OLPC's offices, and shortly after online. --scott -- ( http://cscott.net/ ) ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
Re: [sugar] 0.84/9.1 planning.
On Mon, Oct 13, 2008 at 2:46 PM, Ed McNierney [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I would also like to stop calling this 9.1 planning. We need to plan the development work we need to get done, regardless of whether that work will be able to ship next March. At a certain point we will have some of this work complete and available for qualification in a March delivery, and we'll ship that as 9.1. And we'll keep going to qualify and ship more of it in 9.2, and more in 10.1 (or is that 0.1??), etc. I disagree. Part of the focus of the meeting is to present all the ideas for future development, and then drive stakes in the ground for what's going to be in 9.1. We need to know where we are going, but we don't need to have decided schedules when we give the talk. We might decide that (say) feature Foo Bar is really nice, but we can't possibly have it in place for March, but that we *should* certainly implement *one small piece* of it by then. In the past we have divided tasks into next release and future release where the future really means never because we don't do *any* of the work in the next release timeframe. That needs to stop. *Everything* we want in a future release must have *some* piece we can do now, so that we continue to make progress on our long-term goals. So, when I called it a *9.1* meeting, I meant it: we've got lots of crazy and not-so-crazy ideas. *What part of them are we going to put in 9.1*, because if we're not going to do at least a little of the work by 9.1, it will always be future and never make it to ship. After 9.1, we'll have a 9.2 planning meeting. This seems a totally sane way to schedule and name these meetings. We can have other miniconferences or summits or whatever, but just after each release we have an urgent need to gather whatever we need to plan the next one. Let's call this one the 9.1 planning meeting. Let's call the next the 9.2 planning meeting. --scott -- ( http://cscott.net/ ) ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
Re: [sugar] 0.84/9.1 planning.
On Thu, Oct 9, 2008 at 2:07 PM, Ed McNierney [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It currently looks like the week of November 17 - 21 is our target for our planning meeting, so as to avoid travel during the (following) US Thanksgiving holiday week. I concur with Scott's suggestion of having a sugarlabs contact connect with SJ to move things forward. Just to clarify: like our mini-conferences in the past, the plan is to have at least three days full of talks and hacking, so that we all have a chance to present plans and wild ideas in lots of technical detail, and listen to talks and presentations from the learning side, before we have to sit down and draw up concrete priorities and goals for 9.1. Hopefully some crazy ideas will seem less crazy when they are presented in depth, and perhaps some reasonable ideas will have enough holes poked in them during QA to shift our thinking as well. Walter Bender has already said he will be out of the country until late in the week, and it's reasonable to expect that the final knock-down drag-out draw-up-the-big-list summary meeting will be at the end of all this. But I'd encourage both sides here to consider making this a full week of presentation and exploration (and publication!). See http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Presentations#Workshops for the archived results of our previous big planning meetings. --scott -- ( http://cscott.net/ ) ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
Re: [sugar] 0.84/9.1 planning.
On Fri, Oct 10, 2008 at 3:23 PM, Marco Pesenti Gritti [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Just to clarify: like our mini-conferences in the past, the plan is to have at least three days full of talks and hacking, so that we all Are you proposing something like: 17 - 21 Talks and hacking 24 - 25 Concrete priorities and goals I think more like: Nov 17-20: talks and hacking Nov 21: priorities meeting, wrapup. I'm not the planning committee, but this would be what I'd like to see. --scott -- ( http://cscott.net/ ) ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
[sugar] 0.84/9.1 planning.
OLPC needs to work out its priorities and goals for 9.1. Sugarlabs needs to do the same for 0.84. We should do it together! I suggest that sugarlabs organize an 0.84 planning meeting, to be held at the same time/place as OLPC's 9.1 planning meeting in November. My understanding is that SJ is planning the 9.1 meeting -- which will hopefully be held at the same time as some learning team presentations by folks in the field, so all of us techie types get a chance to cross-pollinate and mingle with the teachers and education experts using our software in the field, and vice versa. I suggest that sugarlabs appoint its own 0.84 planning conference committee and have them coordinate with SJ to make our joint planning as broad in its scope as possible. --scott -- ( http://cscott.net/ ) ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
Re: [sugar] Cross posting
On Thu, Oct 9, 2008 at 12:01 PM, Philippe Clérié [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I notice there's considerable cross posting occuring to the sugar and devel lists. Perhaps they should be merged? There's a subset relationship: often sugar stuff is relevant to general developers, but there's also (say) linux kernel stuff which isn't of interest to sugar GUI hackers on [EMAIL PROTECTED] Historically, I think GUI-only stuff has stayed on sugar@, and only gets cross-posted when it touches core system issues. Many people subscribe to both, and have sane email clients which suppress the duplicates. I use gmail, and rely on the 'sugar' tag to give me a summary overview that the indicated message has something related to the UI in it. I don't think we need to merge the lists, nor do I think that (limited) cross posting is harmful in any way. --scott -- ( http://cscott.net/ ) ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
Re: [sugar] Cross posting
On Thu, Oct 9, 2008 at 3:08 PM, Philippe Clérié [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Then I guess I shall have to figure out how to deal with duplicates. Your reply produced 3 of them. I'm using KMail. If you have tips... 1) install procmail 2) man procmailex 3) search for 'duplicates' 4) ...? --scott -- ( http://cscott.net/ ) ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
Re: [sugar] notes from the field - Mongolia
I encourage those interested in Journal issues to attend my talk @ 1cc next Wednesday, or to view the video of that talk when it's posted. Most of the journal issues have straight-forward solutions. Yesterday, I heard from the IT manager for the city of Key Largo, Florida; his 60-year old goverment workers have many of the same problems as our Mongolian users or 6-year olds. We can make things better. As Eben has mentioned, one part of this is prompting for names and descriptions at appropriate times. Think of Gmail: it doesn't let you send an email without a subject line without a bit a of effort. We can get better information from users, which will help them more easily find stuff later. Some objects, however (think of photos) really don't have good names: I've got a folder full of files named imgp12314.jpg and similar. Chronological search really is a decent way to find such things, and tags can help you re-find them later. I haven't put boot time on my personal 9.1.0 roadmap yet, but Mitch Bradley and others have done a good deal of work on the issue. I think we could make a sizable improvement for 9.1.0 if that's a priority (assuming some of the other technical enablers also make it into 9.1.0, like ubifs and partitions). --scott -- ( http://cscott.net/ ) ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
Re: [sugar] Signed candidate-765 and gg-765-2 builds available for testing.
On Sat, Sep 27, 2008 at 3:47 AM, S Page [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Michael Stone wrote: I have decided to publish 8.2-765 as a signed Candidate [...] sudo olpc-update 8.2-765 led to WARNING: You seem to be attempting to download an unsigned [...] sudo olpc-update candidate-765 is updating without complaint on my un-security-disabled XO. Yes, that's the expected behavior. The 'candidate' name gives you the signed image; the 8.2-xyz is still the unsigned version of the same build. In the past I tried to retroactively make tags like 8.2-xyz point to the signed image once a build had obtained the necessary checkoffs to be signed, but this turned out to be too confusing: when people reported problems with 8.2-xyz, I wouldn't know whether they'd tried before or after I'd make the change, or if the image was signed or unsigned. So I think you could or should change http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Template:Latest_Releases/rc to candidate-765, and update Friend_in_testing to replace 1. Get a developer key for your XO laptop. with Anyone with a mass production XO can upgrade to this candidate release (you don't need a developer key). This sounds good to me. I don't think you need to wait for Michael to make this change, could you go ahead and update the wiki? I have also published gg-765-2, a signed G1G1 candidate composite image, created by Scott. gg-765-2 is similar to what we hope to put into manufacturing next week. This doesn't work using olpc-update, right? sudo olpc-update gg-765-2 gave @ERROR: unknown module 'build-gg-765-2': bad build identifier: gg-765-2. No, the gg-752-2 is a clean install image, with preinstalled activities. The factory installs this with 'copy-nand' before the machines leave the assembly line. It *should* be exactly the same as what you'd get if you 'olpc-update' to candidate-765 and then let the software updater install updated activities -- except that olpc-update will also preserve whatever extra activities you've already got installed, the contents of your journal, etc. --scott -- ( http://cscott.net/ ) ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
Re: [sugar] Breaking API (Fwd: Minutes of the GTK+ Team Meeting - 2008-09-23)
On Sun, Sep 28, 2008 at 6:55 AM, Simon Schampijer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hmmm, this is a really tough subject. I guess that we have to guarantee some kind of backwards compatibility unless we are totally convinced that we fix something broken. I think we have to discuss concrete cases, with the thoughts below in mind, and see what we change and what we should not. If there *are* API changes, I much prefer them being documented clearly (see the django project for example) than silently broken. Discussing API issues is probably a moot point until/unless we've got a tool for verifying and guaranteeing API stability. This tool would ensure that all public methods, fields, and classes, etc, stay that way in each release, like a tinderbox. I just dealt with the fallout of arbitrarily changing how bundlebuilder/setup.py works (locales broke, Pippy broke, etc) and I can empathize with the frustration this causes. As an alternative viewpoint, however, consider the amount of distributed testing resources we have with our platform. We can make API changes in a development branch/joyride and get a fairly good idea of how many important activities that breaks, based on the outcry. So some empirical testing is worthwhile, to allow finer distinctions between no API changes and any API change you like. --scott -- ( http://cscott.net/ ) ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
Re: [sugar] Major differences between releases
On Sun, Sep 28, 2008 at 2:56 PM, Bert Freudenberg [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think it would be a good idea for everyone (activity authors in particular) to cross-check the changes in what packages are included in the new stable release, in particular what packages are *going away*: http://dev.laptop.org/~bert/update.1-8.2.html That list is slightly misleading, as it includes several cases where two packages were folded into one or a package was renamed. Others changes are inherited from the F7-F9 transition -- does anyone know if Fedora documents API changes between releases of Fedora? Also, is there any chance someone will take on http://dev.laptop.org/ticket/4695 (Document API changes between Ship.1 and Update.1 and 8.2) after the release before working on the next one? I did see an email from morgs recently mentioning his interest in documenting sugar API changes? --scott -- ( http://cscott.net/ ) ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
Re: [sugar] Signed candidate-765 and gg-765-2 builds available for testing.
On Sun, Sep 28, 2008 at 6:45 PM, S Page [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: BUT! after I disabled my developer key and ran sudo olpc-update candidate-765 , my XO won't boot: Trying nand:\boot\runos.zip OS found - No signature for our key Boot failed :-( Hmm, two bugs potentially here: olpc-update shouldn't let you upgrade to an unsigned build (if that's what candidate-765 is giving you) without an active developer key (unless you use the --force option, at least). I'll check this out on Monday. I've been asking on irc:#olpc if anyone has upgraded/installed candidate-765 on a secure or developer-key XO, with no response. I've installed it on a secured XO with a dev key (that's my usual machine); I'll have to try turning security off. --scott -- ( http://cscott.net/ ) ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
Re: [sugar] Signed candidate-765 and gg-765-2 builds available for testing.
On Mon, Sep 29, 2008 at 12:04 AM, C. Scott Ananian [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I've installed it on a secured XO with a dev key (that's my usual machine); I'll have to try turning security off. I mean, turning the *dev key* off. --scott -- ( http://cscott.net/ ) ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
Re: [sugar] Supporting desktop applications, extending the EWMH spec
On Wed, Sep 24, 2008 at 4:36 PM, Walter Bender [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: of an issue than resolving incompatibilities between libraries (The Gimp pulls in all sorts of stuff and Inkscape tries to pull in incompatible libraries, such as an old version of poppler), No longer the case. incompatibilities with where we'd like applications to write data (The Gimp will stomp all over the filesystem), moving data to and from the Journal (how do I open an image I took with Record in The Gimp? or use a picture I edited with The Gimp in Memorize)? The fact that The Gimp See the thread I've started on resolving these issues. uses lots of little auxiliary windows is easily dealt with in, for example, the X Activity. Making this seamless in Sugar seems, IMHO, a relatively low priority relative to these other inconsistencies. In my opinion, fixing the barriers that prevent developers from dogfooding sugar is of high importance. --scott -- ( http://cscott.net/ ) ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
Re: [sugar] [RELEASE] sugar-artwork 0.82.3
On Tue, Sep 23, 2008 at 11:48 AM, Simon Schampijer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sources: http://dev.laptop.org/pub/sugar/sources/sugar-artwork/sugar-artwork-0.82.3.tar.bz2 News: Fix corrupted network-wireless-060.svg Can you open a trac bug for this and put it in the 'approve for release' state? Thanks. --scott -- ( http://cscott.net/ ) ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
Re: [sugar] Tagged Journal Proposal
On Tue, Sep 23, 2008 at 2:13 PM, Benjamin M. Schwartz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 C. Scott Ananian wrote: | A hand-drawn proposal for what a Journal supporting directory | traversal as well as tag space exploration is in the attached PDF. | Discussion welcome! Could you please point me to a description of the semantics for these ordered tags? Since I do not know how the tags are meant to work, I cannot provide any feedback on the UI. Previous discussion: http://lists.laptop.org/pipermail/sugar/2008-September/008432.html Briefly: in addition to specifying multiple tags as a b c you can also separate some of the tags with slashes, like a/b c. A search for a/b only turns up entries tagged a/b not entries tagged b/a or a b, although a search for a b turns up all of them. Most of the tag browsing is borrowed from either gmail or epiphany; Eduardo's walkthrough of epiphany at the link above should give you a good idea. --scott -- ( http://cscott.net/ ) ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
Re: [sugar] Tagged Journal Proposal
On Tue, Sep 23, 2008 at 5:46 PM, Eduardo H. Silva [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Scott, I thought you came to the conclusion that there was no use for ordered tags. What changed your mind? Was it the abilty to browse hierarchical systems with the Journal? I also thought you came to the conclusion that turning directory names as tags alone worked. I would drop them if I have to, and I don't expect them to be used often, but I think having the 'escape hatch' is useful. The only time they really show up is when you're importing content from an existing legacy device. I don't expect there to be much difference in practice between browsing Activities/GCompris/Math/Easy and Activities GCompris Math Easy. And, in fact, the unordered tags might make the Activities GCompris Easy search easier to find. So, I've changed my mind from ordered tags are absolutely vital to ordered tags could be useful in edge cases. Since it's my proposal I'm drawing up, I threw them in. =) How would the results be different if you searched for: a/b a b b a No difference in the last two. The first search would only find a/b not b/a or a b or b a -- but it would also return a/b/c and c/a/b and a/b c, etc. I imagine it's your idea of having the journal be able to browse hierarchically external devices, and the current filesystem above /home/olpc/Journal ? That's there where icon in the top bar. Where = Journal (~/Journal), NAND (full filesystem), USB, SD, etc. As to Ivin's point that he brought this ui design to pentagram in the past, and it was rejected for being too complicated, If the kid doesn't use tags, then a lot of the busyness goes away. I expect that Activities would probably still come tagged as Activities; that and Trash would be the only thing in the left-hand panel. --scott -- ( http://cscott.net/ ) ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
Re: [sugar] Tagged Journal Proposal
On Tue, Sep 23, 2008 at 5:57 PM, Eduardo H. Silva [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ah, so that's why you separate these legacy-hierarchical files with a light grey slash (/) . So that a kid who only knows the Journal tagging world can ignore it, and users who have know the hierarchical world can understand it and make advance usage of that knowledge when transfering from or browsing hierarchical filesystems. Exactly. =) Goof idea! I hope it's not too bad, as well. ;-) --scott -- ( http://cscott.net/ ) ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
Re: [sugar] Tagged Journal Proposal
On Tue, Sep 23, 2008 at 6:05 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: c. scott ananian wrote: On Tue, Sep 23, 2008 at 5:57 PM, Eduardo H. Silva [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ah, so that's why you separate these legacy-hierarchical files with a light grey slash (/) . So that a kid who only knows the Journal tagging world can ignore it, and users who have know the hierarchical world can understand it and make advance usage of that knowledge when transfering from or browsing hierarchical filesystems. Exactly. =) seems like acknowledging the path form of these directory-derived tags might also make working with devices for which no tag list has been, or can be, created. i.e., when you first install a large new USB stick, there will certainly be a delay before a tag index can or will be built. the grey slashes might be black during that time. Hah, you're getting into implementation details now. I believe that anyone creating indexes for or on removable devices is living in a state of sin. The searches should still work immediately, with no indexes: they might just take a while. This ends up being a recursive directory traversal, but it's not Death. That's fine, we can show the immediate results immediately, and the rest just take a while. We can probably write some hints for use during the current session, esp for large devices (attached USB cards, persistent SD) but we can't assume that these hints are persistent across mounts, or aren't corrupted in the process of removing the device. (As a special case, for devices formatted ext2/3 we can probably play some tricks with the mount count and dirty flag to let us know when it's safe to use old hints.) --scott -- ( http://cscott.net/ ) ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
Re: [sugar] Tagged Journal Proposal
On Tue, Sep 23, 2008 at 7:48 PM, Eben Eliason [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am a little unsure what the Actions, Objects and Labels tabs do however. They are alternate views, or ways of organizing, the data. The action/object split is elaborated upon in the posted Journal designs. (http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Designs/Toolbars) I'm not sure what Labels is. Scott? Yes, I drew the 'object' view. The 'action' view is at http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Designs/Journal. I don't really know whether the tagging and filtering makes sense in the Action view, but I would like it to. Perhaps 'actions which include objects matching the current search' is what is displayed? The 'Labels' view is my fuzzy thinking about 'saved searches'. I'd like to be able to save any current search as a label to be applied; the 'Labels' view would let you view and edit those saved searches. I don't have a good design for that, and I'm certainly not certain it should be accorded equal weight with the 'object' and 'action' views. Ideas welcome. This is power-user territory: unless either I or someone else gets better ideas about how it would work, I'm inclined to omit it for now. --scott -- ( http://cscott.net/ ) ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
Re: [sugar] Supporting desktop applications, extending the EWMH spec
IMO, there is no technical reason why we can't support every X application, no matter how baroque. Window manager technology is as old as X. Given that we can, we *should*. --scott -- ( http://cscott.net/ ) ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
Re: [sugar] Ideas for Journal: How epiphany browser manages bookmarks just with tags
On Sat, Sep 20, 2008 at 1:41 AM, Albert Cahalan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The case of b/a being distinct from a/b is necessary. You may call it a necessary evil, but in any case is is necessary. Surprisingly, it's not: http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Experiments_with_unordered_paths I still think it's worth supporting as an edge case, but from my actual experiments, it seems that path ordering is almost never actually necessary (!). For the journal to be truly usable, it needs to support pretty much all that we ask of a filesystem. You'll know you're doing OK when you can build joyride out of the journal. (git works, gcc works, etc.) This is a good test case. I'll confirm it, but I believe that this should actually work with unordered paths. The trickiness comes wrt to security in a multiuser system; Michael has been thinking hard about that. (I prefer just to punt it for the moment.) Give priority to tags (and anti-tags) which split the set of files most evenly. This greatly reduces search time; it is equivalent to balancing a binary tree. It turns out that only about 3 tags are needed to find any directory among the 900,000 files in my home directory (I'm working on getting better statistics, sorry). So the opposite criterion might be more important: give priority to tags which 'most narrow' the search -- that is, they match the *fewest* things! Once you've entered two search terms, the exact thing you are looking for ought to be in that list; you don't want to be distracted by terms held in common by lots of files which don't appreciably narrow your search. I hope to implement experiments (as described in the wiki page cited above) to start getting real life experience with these tradeoffs. --scott -- ( http://cscott.net/ ) ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
Re: [sugar] Unannounced String Freeze break ??
On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 2:32 PM, Sayamindu Dasgupta [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am a bit confused. This is definitely a break in string freeze, and yet, the patch mentions that string freeze is not affected. Was a string freeze break approval asked for in this case ? I think the idea was that it only *added* strings and didn't *modify* strings, so it shouldn't affect existing translations (we'd just have a few more untranslated strings)? But you're right, we should have an explicit 'strings signoff' step in the process. If nothing else, we should be justifying why we think these strings don't need to be translated. We should probably have a 'last minute change' process written up as well, so that we always have (say) a specific one-week window at the end of the process for nothing but translation changes to allow translators a shot (at least) at catching up with the 'last minute' string changes. I hope in the 9.1 timeframe to be able to distribute updates to translations like activity updates are distributed, which ought to ease the pain somewhat. --scott -- ( http://cscott.net/ ) ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
Re: [sugar] Ideas for Journal: How epiphany browser manages bookmarks just with tags
On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 2:31 PM, Eduardo H. Silva [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ideas for Journal: How epiphany browser manages bookmarks just with tags (and does it nicely, with potential of improving of course). I made a screenshot slide-show of how tagging and the dynamic bookmarks menu based solely on tags work in Gnome's Epiphany browser. I hope this can be usefull to gather ideas for how the tagging system in the Journal could work. This could also be helpful if tagging in the future can be done within activities, so that they are easily, and thus more often, used. I show how in Epiphany: tags are searched; tags are suggested; pre-existing and new tags are added; tags are presented; and how tagged bookmarks are organized in a menu. The size is a bit big because of all the screenshots, it's 46.7 MB . C_scott uploaded it for me, at http://dev.laptop.org/~cscott/eduardo-epiphany-tags.pdf Eduardo Eben, Eduardo, and I have been chatting about this some over IRC. What I find most interesting here is how *filesystem paths* (well, URL paths in this particular case) are integrated with tags. For example, when you type 'fsf', both 'http://fsf.org/' and other things tagged with 'fsf' show up. This ties in with one of my frustrations with google's tag system: I have olpc, olpc-fedora, olpc-sugar, olpc-sugarlabs, etc tags in google, when what I really want is 'olpc/fedora', 'olpc/sugar', etc. Sometimes I want to see all olpc-related mail, sometimes only sugar-related olpc mail, etc. If you accept that tags can sometimes be ordered, so that a/b is different than b/a (although both will show up on searches for 'a' and 'b'), then this starts looking more and more like a way to view filesystems as well, for those old enough to want to do that. If you have files in ~/Journal/Music/Bach/Disc1 and ~/Journal/Music/Beethoven/Disc1, you can search for 'Bach', 'Music Bach' as well as 'Bach/Disc1' or 'Music/Bach/Disc1' if you want to be specific. When you insert a USB key with files in a directory called 'Music/Mozart', they appear in the journal as if they were tagged 'Music/Mozart' and you can search for 'Mozart' or 'Music' to find them. When I copy them to my XO, the tags come with, and I have operations to retag groups of files that are the result of a search (which can look very much like groups of files which are in a specific directory). Rather than having two separate views for 'hierarchy' and 'journal', this unifies them so achieve a more consistent and growable interface: you don't have to discard everything you know and learn a new metaphor and interface when you start to use 'folders'. From irc: (02:18:45 PM) C. Scott Ananian: by default searches will be confined to ~/Journal; the real question is how to search *outside* that directory. (02:18:51 PM) HoboPrimate: look at nautilus (02:19:04 PM) HoboPrimate: you see the directories as buttons. (02:19:19 PM) HoboPrimate: imagine seeing just a Journal button there (02:19:24 PM) HoboPrimate: below, the search box (02:19:33 PM) HoboPrimate: this would mean, you are searching within the journal only (02:19:49 PM) HoboPrimate: now, if you click on the journal button, it expands to allow changing it [...] (02:21:59 PM) C. Scott Ananian: HoboPrimate: well, in my ideal world you could apply a tag to any file (02:22:05 PM) C. Scott Ananian: HoboPrimate: it will just be a special xattr (02:22:27 PM) HoboPrimate: that would rock. (02:22:45 PM) HoboPrimate: so tagging wouldn't be a Journal specific thing, but (02:23:04 PM) HoboPrimate: be propagated when you move the file to other non-sugar but xattr aware systems (02:23:14 PM) C. Scott Ananian: yes The dynamic tag suggestion and ordering stuff that epiphany has (nicely presented by eduardo) would be directly applicable; all we need is the special idea that *all files are tagged by default by their path* and *there are special ordered tags* to extend the journal into a filesystem browser. Browsing a directly hierarchy feels just like browsing through tag sets; once I pick the 'Music/' tag, the 'Music/Bach' and 'Music/Beethoven' tags show up as possible extensions to my search. --scott -- ( http://cscott.net/ ) ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
Re: [sugar] Supporting desktop applications, extending the EWMH spec
On Thu, Sep 18, 2008 at 4:07 PM, Sayamindu Dasgupta [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Marco and I have been discussing on how to make a window manager like Metacity fit into the Sugar environment, and based on our current discussions, as well as past discussions, it seems clear that we need changes to the Extended Window Manager Hints spec[1]. For details on I think you are confusing the role of the Window Manager. When I run sugar under metacity, I don't *want* my activities to be full screen. When I use a windowing wm, I expect them to be in (decorated) windows. Ideally, the sugar home view would run on root, like in nautilus. On the XO, we are using a special tiling window manager. You can use a window manager like XMonad on your non-XO if you want that style of window management. That's a window manager property, sugar activities should have nothing to do with it. When I'm running Browse in my window, and then select Fullscreen mode, *then* it applies the full screen hint, and really *does* run full screen. This is just like Firefox does. Some of the links at the top of http://wiki.laptop.org/go/9.1.0#Suggestions_from_User:CScott point to window managers we could run on the XO to provide better support of the 'each activity has a full screen' window management mode. Further, they offer better support of 'floating layers', so that an application like the gimp can have a 'full screen' layer all to itself *in which* it can have several different (decorated) windows. Something like having a dedicated virtual desktop per activity. I suppose we could add a new hint for some activities indicating which of their multiple windows (if any) should be the 'background' one mapped full-screen, but I believe the existing hints are adequate. Playing around with the gimp in XMonad may be instructive. --scott -- ( http://cscott.net/ ) ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
Re: [sugar] Unannounced String Freeze break ??
On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 3:24 PM, Sayamindu Dasgupta [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Yeah - I'm looking at the way this is done ib Ubuntu, and I think this
can work for us as well. Will we have support for installing extra
RPMs via the customization key in 9.1 ?
Rough notes: (some of this is from
http://wiki.laptop.org/go/9.1.0#Suggestions_from_User:CScott)
* translation system should look in local, then activity, then
system translation tables, then repeat for each in a set of fallback
languages (eg, quechua, spanish, english)
* separable translation packs
* wiki-like editing of translatable labels in the UI
Switch to sugar.gettext module, with this extended lookup process for
message strings.
Switch to sugar.Label gui element, which automatically supports
editing yr local translations? Expose local dictionary in the
journal, so that Uploading/merging can be a separate program.
(String edit should happen in a separate program's window --
communicate over dbus? -- to facilitate editing of transient strings.
API should be, L(gettext msgid w/ formatting, *args), so that
gettext can be taught about L(...) as a msg marker. Variants to
support alternate domains and contexts. N_ variant probably not
needed. OR: sugar.Label(N_('message id %s'), *args, **gettextkwds)
yes, that's better. think hard about ngettext; probably kwargs like
'plural=N_('plural string'), count=n', but gettext needs to know.
(this label will also support the below)
Language change in the frame; on-the-fly change language in all open apps.
--scott
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Re: [sugar] Supporting desktop applications, extending the EWMH spec
On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 3:33 PM, Benjamin M. Schwartz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 We are talking about replacing Matchbox with Metacity in the XO build of Sugar. Right, I think that's where you're going wrong. You should be considering replacing Matchbox with a better window manager. Metacity is the wrong one. | When I run | sugar under metacity, I don't *want* my activities to be full screen. I think you mean When I run Sugar inside a standard desktop environment on a computer with a large monitor... No, I mean what I said. Who says 1200x900 is small? | Some of the links at the top of | http://wiki.laptop.org/go/9.1.0#Suggestions_from_User:CScott point to | window managers we could run on the XO to provide better support of | the 'each activity has a full screen' window management mode. That is the role for which we are discussing Metacity. again, that's probably not the right window manager to be looking at. Metacity is not designed to do this, and the maintainer does not like to add cruft to it. It is the poster child of the *non*extensible, *do things only one way* window manager. Not the right one for this. --scott -- ( http://cscott.net/ ) ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
Re: [sugar] Supporting desktop applications, extending the EWMH spec
On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 3:56 PM, Marco Pesenti Gritti [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 9:43 PM, C. Scott Ananian [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well, if there's only one window, and it's stretchable, then your decision is easy. If it requests a fixed size, then you should probably decorate and float all the windows. I could also see floating all fixed size windows and tiling all stretchable windows -- that would make the 'gimp' work nicely; all the palettes would be floating and all the drawings would be tiled. And that's using only the stretchable hint. =) I'm not entirely opposed to adding new hints for oddball apps, but I'd like 99% of apps to work as-is, and from my review of the wms out there, it seems quite plausible that we can do this. FWIW, the wm itself can add hints based on window class for outliers, without requiring the outliers themselves to be changed. I see you mention three window managers on your page (including metacity). It would nice to see a quick analysis of their strengths/weaknesses for our use case... I spent a while looking at documentation for all of them, but I need to schedule some hands-on experience time. Some moderate customization of the wm is probably necessary, since many of them ship with power user defaults with keyboard window switching, etc. The exact 'one virtual desktop per application' (well, maybe not a real virtual desktop, but roughly) use case doesn't seem to be out-of-the-box, but shouldn't be too hard. XMonad had erikg as a user advocate, but I worry about maintaining a Haskell app. It does have a vibrant user community, though, and is easily customized. My feeling is that metacity will be hard to upstream patches to, and it would be more work to get working 'right', since it's pretty much designed *not* to be extensible. But it is the default wm these days. awesome seems to be on the ball wrt standards compliance, but is extended in Lua (yet another language) and I don't know anyone who uses it -- not that there aren't people, it just doesn't have a local advocate. awesome and whimsy are among those listed on http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Specifications/wm-spec -- whimsy is written in python, which I like, but seems immature, which I don't. whimsy also doesn't support the 'floating' layer necessary for apps like gimp. So, my initial impression was that awesome would probably work fine, but that if erikg or m_stone wanted to hack on XMonad, I could easily be convinced of that, too. If whimsy sprouted decent support for floating windows, I'd seriously consider it; it would be nice to have a small hackable wm in our standard language. awesome was on the top of my list to hack around with when I get time and see if I could make it do the tricks I wanted it to do. If we go with this approach, Sugar itself is likely to require small or no changes and I can just let you and Sayamindu deal with all of it The main changes required, I think, would actually be to the shell code to make it happy running on a root window. There's some reparenting magic that's done to make that work right; I was pointed to the xpenguins source for information on what that involves, I don't think it's a lot that needs to be done. We might have to tweak the frame implementation so that it speaks the same standard wm-communication language as the window selectors in the gnome panel, if it doesn't already; haven't looked at that. And, of course, I wanted to switch sugar to using the standard X activity startup notification mechanism, and the standard desktop notification mechanism. Those aren't strictly required for the wm switchover, but would complete most of the work of making us a real citizen of the outside world. --scott -- ( http://cscott.net/ ) ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
Re: [sugar] Ideas for Journal: How epiphany browser manages bookmarks just with tags
On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 3:59 PM, Eduardo H. Silva [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 2008/9/19 C. Scott Ananian [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 2:31 PM, Eduardo H. Silva [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If you accept that tags can sometimes be ordered, so that a/b is different than b/a (although both will show up on searches for 'a' and 'b'), then this starts looking more and more like a way to view filesystems as well, for those old enough to want to do that. I don't follow this. Thinking in Journal terms, where currently the only access is through the search box, you could search for olpc sugarlabs to see your olpc-sugar e-mails, or olpc to see all which fit under olpc, i.e. olpc-fedora+olpc-sugarlabs+olpc-sugar. A search which doesn't work if you follow the containerization way of directories, would be if you searched just for sugarlabs . This would give you olpc-sugarlabs results, but also would find sugarlabs tagged entries which didn't belong to the olpc- root (like a logo of Sugarlabs, or some document about it). My example might not have been the best, but independent tags start having real problems when I have a lot of tags and many of the tags are duplicated. Some more examples: * jill/joe might be what jill thinks of joe, while joe/jill might be what joe thinks of jill. * techsquares/lists is email relating to the mailing lists I maintain for tech-squares, while lists contains all my subscription information for mailing lists I belong to, and lists/techsquares is thus my own mailman login for the techsquares list (which I'm on, as well as maintain). * The total list of tags in my gmail instance is very large! But the top-level list could be much smaller if I could order them hierarchically. So I agree that some kind of containerization is needed, but not in the form of a/b being different than b/a, but by using virtual folders or saved searches which would effectively act as virtual folders, with specific tags, search terms, object types, even a period of time if you wished. I think this is a separate functionality. This lets me take my 'techsquares/lists subscribe-requests' search and turn it into a top level tag. Containerization is meant to prevent all tags from becoming top level. Rather than having two separate views for 'hierarchy' and 'journal', this unifies them so achieve a more consistent and growable interface: you don't have to discard everything you know and learn a new metaphor and interface when you start to use 'folders'. I hope, like I said above, that virtual folders or saved searches (they're the same, just differently named) would replace static folders. They're complimentary. If you look at [[Olpcfs]], there's a way to navigate 'tag space' and even 'search space' as if it were a directory. Ordered tags are a way to navigate directory space as if it were a tag soup. --scott -- ( http://cscott.net/ ) ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
Re: [sugar] Ideas for Journal: How epiphany browser manages bookmarks just with tags
On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 4:57 PM, Eben Eliason [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Two) to get at the thing you're looking for. So, again, I'm not sure that order really matters. Of course, if it DID really matter for a reason I'm not presently considering, we could allow tags of the form: A/B To match on A, B, A B B A, and also A/B (but not B/A). In other words, the addition of the slash to the tag format is used similarly to the way quotes are used to group two tags into one. Instead of grouping, however, it orders instead. It's interesting, but I'm not sure I see a good utility there yet. I think there is compelling utility in terms of mapping tag space to a filesystem and back. I hope that (like quotes) there is not all that often when you need to use them -- but they are a useful power-user feature. The following are all related searches: A B-- matches these tag sets A B C, B A C, A/B C, B/A C, etc. A/B-- matches A/B, C/A/B, A/B/C, etc. B/A-- matches B/A, C/B/A, B/A/C, etc. A B -- matches 'A B' C, etc /A/B -- matches A/B/C but not C/A/B They express slightly different meanings, but in many cases will be indistinguishable from A B. I think they add a lot of power to the tag language, although naive users won't need to use it often. Completion on a search for A/B would suggest A/B/C if there is a 'subfolder' C; it would suggest A/B C if there was an item labelled with A/B and tag C. If a young user has never made subfolders, then the slash-separated options will never be suggested and all this power remains hidden. An interesting point Eduardo brought up was the relationship between folders and saved searches. Do tag completions (ie sub folders or related tags) show up in the journal itself, or only in a pane during a search? If they show up as first class objects, then it might be nice to have searches in general as first class objects. I think I'm arguing that tag completions are not the same thing as journal items, and only show up during a search. I could be convinced otherwise. Another interesting point: gmail's UI never lets you see the results of the 'empty' search (that is, all objects). By default the search is restricted to 'in:Inbox' and the easiest UI mechanisms always restrict the search to a 'folder'. You can click 'Search Mail' with an empty search query, though, and what you get is very similar to what one might imagine the Journal to be: a chronological list of all your email (activity instances), grouped by thread (version), with a list of clickable tags on each which you can use to find other similar emails (activity instances). Gmail does have a flexible 'rules' system to help automatically tag/categorize/file documents, though; it may be worthwhile thinking what the Journal could do in that regard. --scott -- ( http://cscott.net/ ) ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
Re: [sugar] Supporting desktop applications, extending the EWMH spec
On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 4:50 PM, Sayamindu Dasgupta [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Metacity was provided just as an example. The issue here is that we want to replace Matchbox with something which would let us support normal desktop applications better, ideally without requiring any kind of modification to the applications themselves. (better support, for instance means, not messing up The Gimp) +1 Agreed. But are sugar activities (or rather, should sugar applications be) the same as normal desktop applications from a window manager peerspective. Yes, for the most part. Inkscape or gnumeric running with one window open should look the same as a sugar activity. Things only start getting interesting when I open two documents simultaneously in inkscape. When I'm running Browse in my window, and then select Fullscreen mode, *then* it applies the full screen hint, and really *does* run full screen. This is just like Firefox does. Yes, that is why I'm still somewhat opposed to running all our activities with the FULLSCREEN hint permanently on - IMO, we need to differentiate between the two modes of an application or an activity, and the window manager needs to know about that. +1 GIMP is stretchable. It looks ugly when it is stretched too much, but you can stretch it or even maximize it if you want. wow, i never realized this. You're right. I was just trying to illustrate that the layout strategy doesn't have to be very complicated for most applications. Gimp does set reasonable window hints, and simply falling back to floating mode with window decorations when multiple non-dialog windows are mapped is a good first-draft wm policy. Just a note that Xmonad seems to pull in 35 MBs of RPMs as dependencies. I'm not sure whether that is good for our storage space. Wow. I think part of the reason is that Xmonad supports recompiling itself on the fly to allow you to dynamically edit the wm configuration, and so pulls in the entire Haskell compiler and all its libraries. I'm willing to bet that a static configuration could be made much smaller -- but that's clearly one of the issues that should be relevant in the final choice for wm. --scott -- ( http://cscott.net/ ) ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
Re: [sugar] G1G1v2 Activities
On Thu, Sep 18, 2008 at 10:01 PM, Gary C Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: However, any hints would be much appreciated as to what this last remaining setup.py WARNING is trying to tell me? WARNING:root:bundle_name deprecated, now comes from activity.info I've not had much luck tracking it down, and I make no reference to bundle_name in my code. When you call BundleBuilder in setup.py, don't pass in a string in the constructor, leave it empty. It interprets the argument as a 'bundle_name' and is complaining that it's going to ignore what you passed in and use the name specified in activity.info instead. Yes, it took me a *long* time to finally realize this. --scott -- ( http://cscott.net/ ) ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
Re: [sugar] G1G1v2 Activities
On Thu, Sep 18, 2008 at 7:13 PM, Douglas Bagnall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If we're sticking to activities with valid activity.info files, then (AFAICT) we're limited to: Actually, we can only ship activities with valid license= tags in the activity.info files. I don't think many on your list qualify. But that doesn't matter at the moment -- we'll poke the authors to add appropriate license information (and host_version!) for the activities we decide to ship. Let's return to the original question: what activities should those be? Concentrating on activities *not* in the original G1G1 list, as cjb suggests, is probably a good idea -- although if there are any of those activities you activity *don't* think we should ship, that's probably of interest as well. --scott -- ( http://cscott.net/ ) ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
Re: [sugar] Supporting desktop applications, extending the EWMH spec
On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 4:59 PM, Mikus Grinbergs [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Lots of discussion -- but I'm not sure how much benefit the Sugar *user* might receive. Some users will want to use gimp. Some will want to use metacity. To me, supporting multiple windows for one Activity is a much more pressing need than supporting full screen for every Activity. In the current Sugar implementation, alt-tab appears to provide an adequate way to navigate among such windows (i.e., screens) - but more discussion is needed about the role of Frame in this situation. I envision having one screen with multiple windows. Basically, each activity gets its own virtual desktop. You can either have these windows decorated or not, depending on whether you prefer tiled or overlapping window managers. I think that to a user, gray circles left in Frame are of more immediate concern than shortcomings of using Matchbox with Sugar. That would be my 'we should use the standard X startup notification mechanism' rant. --scott -- ( http://cscott.net/ ) ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
Re: [sugar] Supporting desktop applications, extending the EWMH spec
On Fri, Sep 19, 2008 at 7:16 PM, Marco Pesenti Gritti [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sat, Sep 20, 2008 at 1:10 AM, Marco Pesenti Gritti [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And, of course, I wanted to switch sugar to using the standard X activity startup notification mechanism, and the standard desktop notification mechanism. I'm not sure this is necessary. All the activities will be run by the shell in 0.84 and the UI feedback is in the shell. I don't think we need inter process communication. The only use case I can think of is running activities from the command line but that's minor, I don't even think gnome-terminal supports it. Scratch that, I lied... I hope the freedesktop spec is flexible enough to implement our kind of UI feedback. I read the spec, it seemed sane. Proof will be in the implementation, though, of course. --scott -- ( http://cscott.net/ ) ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
Re: [sugar] Finale: consider merging a few fun Sugar patches?
On Thu, Sep 18, 2008 at 3:53 AM, Sayamindu Dasgupta [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: String addtions ?? Now ?? Three words: Triangle, Box, and Spiral. I wonder if a compromise version of the patch might remove all the words and just use icons for the three different layouts. The words don't actually add much (except maybe for Freeform -- but what does that word mean, actually). --scott -- ( http://cscott.net/ ) ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
Re: [sugar] 0.84 planning update
On Tue, Sep 16, 2008 at 10:20 AM, Marco Pesenti Gritti [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I did a first pass on the planning pages for 0.84: http://sugarlabs.org/go/ReleaseTeam/Roadmap/0.84#Goals We are going to have quick, informal meetings in #sugar-meeting at 9am UTC every morning, to keep improving it, to figure out owners for the various parts and to update the status. Everyone is encouraged to participate! Looks good. The few sugar-related things at http://wiki.laptop.org/go/9.1.0#Suggestions_from_User:CScott which I don't see reflected in your 0.84 plans relate to improving translation and localization support, and reworking what content bundles mean, especially how they relate to offline internet content. --scott -- ( http://cscott.net/ ) ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
[sugar] License your bundles, please!
John Gilmore has been pushing us to get our licensing ducks in a row. The one remaining problem has been activities and content bundles: we can't legally distribute bundles that don't have a clear statement of license. I have added documentation to: http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Activity_bundles#.info_File_Format and http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Sample_library.info_file on a new 'license=' field in the activity.info and library.info files, closely modelled after the License: field in RPM packages. Now I need your help! Could you all look at any activity and content bundles you maintain, add an appropriate license statement if there isn't one already (comments at the top of source files, or a COPYING file, or a statement in the README, etc) and the add a 'license=' field to your activity.info or library.info documenting the license choice? Commenting on http://dev.laptop.org/ticket/8411 when you've done so will help me keep track of how we're doing. We will not be able to ship any activities in our G1G1 8.2 image which do not have appropriate license information -- since mstone's plan-of-the-moment is to make the first release candidate for this next week, the situation is pretty urgent. Also, we will probably need to remove any activity bundles hosted on the dev.laptop.org wiki which do not have statements of license at one point. Your help is appreciated! Thanks! --scott -- ( http://cscott.net/ ) ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
Re: [sugar] Freeform layout algorithm
I'll just briefly mention http://dev.laptop.org/ticket/7685 (patches) which includes differently-shaped activity rings as well as a 'sunflower' layout I rather like. --scott -- ( http://cscott.net/ ) ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
Re: [sugar] How did the testing go on 8.2-757?
On Thu, Sep 4, 2008 at 10:02 PM, Chris Ball [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Scott, From Robert Myers: S Page sent me this: Browse 95 on 8.2-757 was working reasonably well for me. Today I ran Software update and now Browse version 96 won't start: AttributeError: 'module' object has no attribute 'set_app_version' BTW, now the org.laptop.WebActivity log has a bunch of escape sequences in it to colorize. They work with `cat`, but vi and less don't like them. I was running Browse during Software Update. I hope running an activity while Software Update upgrades it is supported! I'm updating to 8.2-759... Which is what I saw in the log. I saw this; I think it's more likely that the new version of Browse requires the hulahop in build 758/759 in order to launch correctly. I haven't confirmed this yet (maybe erikos would know). sugar-update-control just uses the standard Sugar upgrade/install method on ActivityBundle; if that doesn't work it's a sugar bug. I can think of many reasons why it might fail; but it should really be the sugar uninstall() call which fails if the activity is currently running. --scott -- ( http://cscott.net/ ) ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
Re: [sugar] [PATCH] screenshots hurt
In informal discussions here at 1cc w/ Chris and Michael, they seemed very pro- anything-which-makes 8.2 significantly faster. I think the general antagonistic tenor of the thread here so far has made it hard to see what quick fixes we could do to improve performance without throwing away journal previews. Here's what *I* would like to see (speaking only for myself): * Quantitative measurements. Switching performance is down to x ms rather than x ms. This helps us discuss alternatives rationally without resorting to sugar performance *sucks* unless we do X mudslinging. * Thorough testing. It is possible to launch an activity and close it without a screenshot ever being taken. What happens in that case? Does the journal crash? Does sugar crash? We need to have confidence the effects of suppressing screenshots are small. * More moderate solutions. We're currently taking a lot of screenshots. Can we quantify what the benefits of taking fewer screenshots without making this into an all-or-nothing discussion? What if we took a screenshot when the keep button was pressed, when the activity closed *while it was mapped* (there are ways to close unmapped activities*, and (say) on window switch and in the background but no more frequently than every N minutes. I bet we can find a compromise which removes a lot of the unnecessary screenshots w/o removing them completely. * Unbiased investigation of other alternatives: are we convinced it is not possible to make the screenshot-taking code faster? Would rewriting that code be a lower-risk path to equivalent performance improvement? (Quantitative measurements help here, too.) * A UI-centric evaluation. What if we (say) only took screenshots when the user pressed the 'keep' button, and otherwise used the activity icon. This is a strawman, because the activity icon is, I believe, already present in the 'details' view in the journal, so this would add no information. But maybe someone can think of a lower-cost generic preview mechanism, or a simple way for *some* activities to improve their performance by providing an preview data callback which sugar could use in lieu of a screenshot. From the strawpoll I took, people around the office here are excited about the opportunity to improve sugar performance, and willing to sneak it in even though it's really far too late in the 8.2 release cycle to be mucking about. But the combative tone seems to have made it difficult for this thread to discover a solution acceptable to everyone. (Not that I'm a master of tact myself!) --scott -- ( http://cscott.net/ ) ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
Re: [sugar] Removing docstrings
On Wed, Aug 27, 2008 at 1:34 PM, Tomeu Vizoso [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 3.0 MiB + 277.5 KiB = 3.3 MiB /usr/bin/python2.5/usr/sbin/olpc-update-query--auto-s10 Normal build: ... 3.3 MiB + 333.0 KiB = 3.6 MiB python/usr/bin/sugar-shell-service - 103.9 MiB You added an olpc-update-query in your first set of numbers (-OO), but there wasn't one running in your 'normal' run. Also, your addition seems to be off, probably because you are eliding other rows which aren't actually matching up between runs. When I add the matching columns that you included, I get 73.7M for -OO and 79.7M for 'normal', for a 6M (~8%) savings. Had to backport two patches for -OO to work: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=460334 See also http://scipy.org/scipy/numpy/ticket/893, which contains a patch we'd need to apply to numpy if we were to actually use -OO. As Scott wrote initially, we still need to dig a bit more in order to see all the tradeoffs in play here. So far it seems we have modest memory savings (perhaps more as we write more documentation!) -- I'd like to see numbers quantifying any speed improvement (if any) which -OO provides, as well as the NAND cost: how big are all those .pyo files? Do folks think it's worth trying out -OO in joyride? --scott -- ( http://cscott.net/ ) ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
Re: [sugar] Removing docstrings
On Tue, Aug 26, 2008 at 3:47 AM, riccardo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, 2008-08-25 at 19:08 -0400, C. Scott Ananian wrote: A previous message (can't find it now to respond to it, sorry) indicated that static docstrings were responsible for a significant amount of sugar's runtime memory requirements. The python interpreter's -O -O option specifically addresses this; it removes docstrings from the running image. This command-line Awesome!, didn't know of the `-O -O' option. After cursory tests: * it appears that the proper python command line is '#!/usr/bin/python2.5 -OO'; using 'env' or separating the '-O' options doesn't work. * when you do this, /usr/lib/python2.5/site-packages/numpy/ma/core.py raises an exception, since it does a '+=' on its __doc__, and __doc__ is None. Commenting out line 3256 fixes this. I've attempted to report this bug upstream, but numpy does not appear to have any bug tracker. =( Other than that, seems to work. I could still use some help doing some measurements to quantify the improvement (if any), since most of my day today will probably be spent on build-related issues. --scott -- ( http://cscott.net/ ) ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
Re: [sugar] Removing docstrings
On Tue, Aug 26, 2008 at 1:00 PM, Tomeu Vizoso [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Anybody with python knowledge can comment on this? Would have expected a significantly smaller number of objects in the GC: [EMAIL PROTECTED]:~/sugar-jhbuild/source/sugar$ python Python 2.5.2 (r252:60911, May 7 2008, 15:19:09) [GCC 4.2.3 (Ubuntu 4.2.3-2ubuntu7)] on linux2 Type help, copyright, credits or license for more information. import gc len(gc.get_objects()) 2508 import gtk len(gc.get_objects()) 12272 [EMAIL PROTECTED]:~$ python -OO Python 2.5.2 (r252:60911, May 7 2008, 15:19:09) [GCC 4.2.3 (Ubuntu 4.2.3-2ubuntu7)] on linux2 Type help, copyright, credits or license for more information. import gc len(gc.get_objects()) 2506 import gtk len(gc.get_objects()) 12270 I think gc.get_objects() is lying to you. Here's the simple test I tried: --- test.py --- #!/usr/bin/python2.5 This is a docstring. class Foo(object): This is another docstring. pass import gc print len(gc.get_objects()) eof --- [EMAIL PROTECTED]:~/Desktop$ python2.5 ./test.py 2479 [EMAIL PROTECTED]:~/Desktop$ python2.5 -OO ./test.py 2476 So far so good, right? A little puzzling because there are only two docstrings, but python seems to be saying we saved *three* objects with -OO. But look at this: $ python2.5 Python 2.5.2 (r252:60911, Aug 8 2008, 09:22:44) [GCC 4.3.1] on linux2 Type help, copyright, credits or license for more information. import numpy import gc print len(gc.get_objects()) 19026 numpy.__doc__ = None print len(gc.get_objects()) 19026 You can play around with this yourself, verifying that numpy.__doc__ had a doc string before the first call, checking that gc.collect() doesn't affect the results, etc. Bottom line is that gc.get_objects() doesn't seem to be counting docstrings. --scott -- ( http://cscott.net/ ) ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
