Re: [sugar] Home Design: Free Layout View
On Mon, 2008-06-16 at 09:45 -0400, Walter Bender wrote: > But rather than argue about hand waving, Tomeu's work on making the > favorite icon layout "pluggable" seems to be a great compromise. Let a > thousand flowers bloom. Yup. 1000 flowers bloom, 990 stink, and we'll pick the sweetest in 6 months or a year. I've watched it play out that way with compositing window managers, where the early essays in the art were over the top, and yet I now have something reasonably tasteful at the end of the day... - Jim -- Jim Gettys <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> One Laptop Per Child ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
Re: [sugar] Home Design: Free Layout View
I question the rationalization that the circle is a problem... >The main issue of concern was one of scalability; The circular >arrangement suggested an inherent finite quality which runs counter to >our goals of allowing children to create and explore as much as possible Since when does a circle suggest "an inherent finite quality"? And how does having a finite number of activities on the home page run counter to allowing children to create and explore? But rather than argue about hand waving, Tomeu's work on making the favorite icon layout "pluggable" seems to be a great compromise. Let a thousand flowers bloom. -walter ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
Re: [sugar] Home Design: Free Layout View
On Fri, Jun 13, 2008 at 12:52:15AM -0400, Mikus Grinbergs wrote: [...] > What could be done on the Home-view page (once the existing "ring" > gets too crowded) is to *not* show some icons until an "enabling > object" is clicked. By "expanding" only one "enabling object" at a > time, the available space on the Home-view page gets multi-used -- > providing lots of scalability. Since a "ring display of objects" > looks good, clicking on an "enabling object" put into an inner ring > could bring up an adjacent "outer ring segment" showing more icons. This made me think of a hyperbolic tree[1,2] layout with the root node obviously being the XO, the central ring being the activities and each activity allowing navigation to its instances in the journal. > mikus Martin 1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HyperbolicTree 2. http://www.visual-literacy.org/periodic_table/periodic_table.html pgpNH74MnL4mB.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
[sugar] Home Design: Free Layout View
I liked the visual simplicity of the "launch circle" for Activities. I dislike having a "jungle" of Activities show up in the Home view. The main issue of concern was one of scalability; The circular arrangement suggested an inherent finite quality which runs counter to our goals of allowing children to create and explore as much as possible I am not a kid. But I think a launch concept I've been using for more than 10 years on my desktop system could be incorporated into the Home-view page: On my display I have a window which consists of a space for icons, with a line of "tabs" underneath it. As each "tab" is clicked, it shows in the upper space the icons assigned to that tab. I launch applications by clicking on one of the icons. [Thus launching consists of a sequence (a 'hierarchy'): (1) selecting a "tab", (2) selecting an "icon" brought up by that tab.] This facility is very compact yet scalable - "vertical" expansion allows for multiple lines of "tabs" to use the same upper space for their icons, while "horizontal" expansion allows the lines of tabs themselves (and/or the upper space for icons) to be scrolled. What could be done on the Home-view page (once the existing "ring" gets too crowded) is to *not* show some icons until an "enabling object" is clicked. By "expanding" only one "enabling object" at a time, the available space on the Home-view page gets multi-used -- providing lots of scalability. Since a "ring display of objects" looks good, clicking on an "enabling object" put into an inner ring could bring up an adjacent "outer ring segment" showing more icons. [In what I am using on my desktop, the "enabling object" capability is provided by the "tab". In the proposal I made on the wiki Design page, that capability I had called the "palette root".] mikus <>___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
Re: [sugar] Home Design: Free Layout View
On Thu, Jun 12, 2008 at 4:41 PM, Michael Stone <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > First, I really like the idea of a "design dimension" that I see latent in > your > work. Zoomable interfaces should zoom in more than one direction. Thanks! Although, I envisioned my "tag focus" feature as being more like scrolling, than zooming. In a sense it's like Spaces in Leopard, where you scroll this spatial hierarchal journal around to find the containing the page with the document (activity instance) you're interested in. In my mockup with the gray 'XO' in the corner, I imagine the corner it goes to would represent the corner it "came from", and the transition into the "tag focus" would be a smooth one. > Second, independent of whether we adopt your exact proposal, we can and > should think about providing subtle configuration ability for things > like views. For example, we could rule that the right-most view is the > default one and allow them to be reordered by dragging. Alternately, we > could position a small arrow or outline beneath the default one and > allow the arrow/outline to be moved. I totally agree. In my proposal I'm replacing the home screen with a similar looking view of the journal, so in my system these other views would be views *of the journal*, which I think is much more interesting! Here's another 'view' that could be selected (or made default): http://wiki.laptop.org/go/User:Wade/Ideas/Journal_Timeline I'm sure there are lots more possible, and it would be great to have them easily extensible. Wade PS- An apology, I realized I've been spelling 'spatial' wrong. ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
Re: [sugar] Home Design: Free Layout View
"Wade Brainerd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: >> I have a vision: keep the ring and let the user open it and turn it into >> a worm (or a necklace, the icons being the perls)... then several worms? >> Worms close together could form a ring again and bigs rings would easily >> split into big worms. > > Wow, now that's an idea, totally original! I could see tags or > activities as the "heads" of the worms... (And quite frankly, Worm has always been the best computer game ever!) -- Bastien ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
Re: [sugar] Home Design: Free Layout View
On Thu, Jun 12, 2008 at 5:09 PM, Bastien <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Martin Dengler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > >> A ring of 50 icons is a better organization than a free-form desktop >> of 50 icons. > > I have a vision: keep the ring and let the user open it and turn it into > a worm (or a necklace, the icons being the perls)... then several worms? > Worms close together could form a ring again and bigs rings would easily > split into big worms. Wow, now that's an idea, totally original! I could see tags or activities as the "heads" of the worms... -Wade ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
Re: [sugar] Home Design: Free Layout View
Martin Dengler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > A ring of 50 icons is a better organization than a free-form desktop > of 50 icons. I have a vision: keep the ring and let the user open it and turn it into a worm (or a necklace, the icons being the perls)... then several worms? Worms close together could form a ring again and bigs rings would easily split into big worms. ... Introducing TLR: The Liquid Ring ! ... Thus you would have macro-manipulation, flexibility, etc. I know, easier to imagine it rather than implementing it, sorry. But please don't go for The Lost of The Ring! -- Bastien ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
Re: [sugar] Home Design: Free Layout View
Two general comments: First, I really like the idea of a "design dimension" that I see latent in your work. Zoomable interfaces should zoom in more than one direction. Second, independent of whether we adopt your exact proposal, we can and should think about providing subtle configuration ability for things like views. For example, we could rule that the right-most view is the default one and allow them to be reordered by dragging. Alternately, we could position a small arrow or outline beneath the default one and allow the arrow/outline to be moved. Comments? Michael ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
Re: [sugar] Home Design: Free Layout View
Okay, I'm jumping in the "ring" so to speak (the third time today I have made this pun, ugh). I believe there are some issues with both the new design and this new new design, and propose to solve them in one fell swoop. I also promote tagging to a first class organizational strategy. http://wiki.laptop.org/go/User:Wade/Ideas/Activity_Management Best, Wade PS- If you look carefully, you will see that I've also replaced your home view with a spacial Journal! On Thu, Jun 12, 2008 at 4:18 PM, Martin Dengler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Thu, Jun 12, 2008 at 03:08:29PM -0400, Eben Eliason wrote: >> [new home view] > > Eben, I have great respect for you and the people involved. My gut > reaction to the new design, however, was just: it's not beautiful. > > I'd like to repeat clearly: > > This design is not beautiful. > > The ring[1] was beautiful, and the redesigned activity circle/ring[2] > too, but this design is not beautiful. It lacks a sense of "macro" / > unifying design/layout that the previous two had, and it looks like a > mess :(. > >> [the Home view presentation was not a Good Thing; the] main issue of >> concern was one of scalability . . . > > What what?? Creation is (journal-wise) nouns; the ring / activities > view is (was) verbs. I've not idea about design metaphor and the > application thereof, but this seems a large change (not necessarily > bad) for a silly reason: scalability. Silly I say, because: this > design is no useful way more scalable. A ring of 50 icons is a better > organization than a free-form desktop of 50 icons. Sure, they can be > dragged around to make sense of them, but...inherently more scalable > (or more beautiful than your last designs) it is not. > >> After experimenting with a number of layouts, it became clear that a >> more traditional freeform view maximizes potential use of the >> available space . . . > > Why is space maximization the most important goal? Clearly a > free-form view is *not* going to result in the maximal packing, but a > somewhat-overlapping grid/hexagonal view. I find this whole > scalability argument not compelling. > >> . . . retains the XO at the center (which is core to >> the zoom metaphor and reflects the philosophy of child ownership of >> laptops) . . . > > Sure! > >> . . . and also provides, via drag'n'drop, the ability for kids to >> further personalize their Home by arranging and categorizing >> activities as they see fit. > > Personalization is good. > >> While we contend that the notion of >> favorites is still a powerful organizational tool, and therefore >> propose to keep it in the new designs, this free view scales well >> enough to prevent the need for using them if one doesn't wish to. >> >> Please observe the new design mockups on the wiki at >> http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Designs/Activity_Management for further >> details. As code freeze is rapidly approaching and these changes are >> slated for the August release aside the rest of the redesign, your >> feedback is greatly appreciated. Thanks! > > Feedback/summary of the above: keep the last design with its favorite > activity ring, but perhaps stick the shaded ring of the design prior > to *that* behind the favorite-ed activities, perhaps. But there are > probably a lot of designs more beautiful that this new proposal, so > don't use this new proposal (subject to the "PS" section caveats > below). > >> - Eben > > Martin > >> PS. While considering the implementation details of the new Home >> design, an interesting extension of this idea was proposed: a >> modular layout system. It would take as input the coordinates of the >> dropped icon (and those of all others on screen as well), and output >> coordinates for where the icons should actually be drawn. (We could >> also include metadata such as name, tags, etc. to allow sorting, >> grouping and such.) > >> The simplest layout is the identity function, naturally. A slightly >> more interesting layout would be the identity function, with some >> extra jiggle logic to prevent overlapping icons. Another possibility, >> of course, is to compute the angle between the center of the screen >> and the coordinate of the dropped icon, compute a radius r based on >> the total number of icons, and then draw all of the dropped icons in a >> ring of radius r with the newly dropped one at the appropriate >> position in the ring. > > Wait, I've changed my mind - *this* is the way to go. Forget all that > stuff I said above ;). > >> One can imagine many more, and more importantly, the possibility >> for an extensible system which allows kids to create their own >> custom layouts. > > This would be *super* cool. It's quite high up the gradient of > customizability, but could be a useful amount/degree below the > difficulty of having kids implement their own gtk theme. > > ___ > Sugar mailing list > Sugar@lists.laptop.org > http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar > > __
Re: [sugar] Home Design: Free Layout View
On Thu, Jun 12, 2008 at 03:08:29PM -0400, Eben Eliason wrote: > [new home view] Eben, I have great respect for you and the people involved. My gut reaction to the new design, however, was just: it's not beautiful. I'd like to repeat clearly: This design is not beautiful. The ring[1] was beautiful, and the redesigned activity circle/ring[2] too, but this design is not beautiful. It lacks a sense of "macro" / unifying design/layout that the previous two had, and it looks like a mess :(. > [the Home view presentation was not a Good Thing; the] main issue of > concern was one of scalability . . . What what?? Creation is (journal-wise) nouns; the ring / activities view is (was) verbs. I've not idea about design metaphor and the application thereof, but this seems a large change (not necessarily bad) for a silly reason: scalability. Silly I say, because: this design is no useful way more scalable. A ring of 50 icons is a better organization than a free-form desktop of 50 icons. Sure, they can be dragged around to make sense of them, but...inherently more scalable (or more beautiful than your last designs) it is not. > After experimenting with a number of layouts, it became clear that a > more traditional freeform view maximizes potential use of the > available space . . . Why is space maximization the most important goal? Clearly a free-form view is *not* going to result in the maximal packing, but a somewhat-overlapping grid/hexagonal view. I find this whole scalability argument not compelling. > . . . retains the XO at the center (which is core to > the zoom metaphor and reflects the philosophy of child ownership of > laptops) . . . Sure! > . . . and also provides, via drag'n'drop, the ability for kids to > further personalize their Home by arranging and categorizing > activities as they see fit. Personalization is good. > While we contend that the notion of > favorites is still a powerful organizational tool, and therefore > propose to keep it in the new designs, this free view scales well > enough to prevent the need for using them if one doesn't wish to. > > Please observe the new design mockups on the wiki at > http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Designs/Activity_Management for further > details. As code freeze is rapidly approaching and these changes are > slated for the August release aside the rest of the redesign, your > feedback is greatly appreciated. Thanks! Feedback/summary of the above: keep the last design with its favorite activity ring, but perhaps stick the shaded ring of the design prior to *that* behind the favorite-ed activities, perhaps. But there are probably a lot of designs more beautiful that this new proposal, so don't use this new proposal (subject to the "PS" section caveats below). > - Eben Martin > PS. While considering the implementation details of the new Home > design, an interesting extension of this idea was proposed: a > modular layout system. It would take as input the coordinates of the > dropped icon (and those of all others on screen as well), and output > coordinates for where the icons should actually be drawn. (We could > also include metadata such as name, tags, etc. to allow sorting, > grouping and such.) > The simplest layout is the identity function, naturally. A slightly > more interesting layout would be the identity function, with some > extra jiggle logic to prevent overlapping icons. Another possibility, > of course, is to compute the angle between the center of the screen > and the coordinate of the dropped icon, compute a radius r based on > the total number of icons, and then draw all of the dropped icons in a > ring of radius r with the newly dropped one at the appropriate > position in the ring. Wait, I've changed my mind - *this* is the way to go. Forget all that stuff I said above ;). > One can imagine many more, and more importantly, the possibility > for an extensible system which allows kids to create their own > custom layouts. This would be *super* cool. It's quite high up the gradient of customizability, but could be a useful amount/degree below the difficulty of having kids implement their own gtk theme. pgpurz4lPA0JF.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
Re: [sugar] Home Design: Free Layout View
"Eben Eliason" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > I think you make valid points. (Caveat: I'm an Emacs/stumpwm/conkeror user, so any word coming out from my mouth about UI design is clearly suspicious.) > However, since you reference the limits imposed by the ring, I want to > point you back to the wiki to look at the previous version of the Home > screen design (which is still different from that currently in stable > builds) and the other design mockups for the new Frame, since they > change some other fundamentals of the system which it seems you aren't > away of yet. Please update your comments after reviewing those as > well! All right, thanks for the pointer! IIUC, the top frame border is now the place where we get order and space limit for activities? Good. But on the pictures, it looks like we are mixing the icons for the different views and the activities icons. Is it the case? If so, is that not a bit inconsistent? -- Bastien ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
Re: [sugar] Home Design: Free Layout View
I think you make valid points. However, since you reference the limits imposed by the ring, I want to point you back to the wiki to look at the previous version of the Home screen design (which is still different from that currently in stable builds) and the other design mockups for the new Frame, since they change some other fundamentals of the system which it seems you aren't away of yet. Please update your comments after reviewing those as well! wiki.laptop.org/go/Designs/Activity_Management (the new one) http://wiki.laptop.org/index.php?title=Designs/Activity_Management&oldid=112067 (the previous one) wiki.laptop.org/go/Designs/Frame Thanks! - Eben On Thu, Jun 12, 2008 at 6:03 PM, Bastien <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Let me add my 2 cents of discrepancy here. > > What I like about the current circular Home view is: > > - *order*: in the free-form desktop, there is no way to vizualize the > order in which activities have been launched. Knowing this is useful > when children and teachers try to share activities and want to know > what was the first one they opened, for example. > > - *limits*: it has been often noticed that children tend to open too > many activities at the same time, thus making the machine hanging. > While I understand the clear-horizon hypothesis (explore freely!), I > guess it's somewhat contradictory with this recurrent complaint. A > circular view might as well be some kind of metaphor about the > memory/computational limits of the XO... > > - *distinction*: the current Home view is very easy to recognize. With > the free desktop view there is less visual distinction, and children > might consider activities are organized as a network of activities > talking to each others (which will become reality for XO-3, I'm pretty > confident.) > > Ok: order, limits, distinction, this sounds a bit fascist. > > But I guess it's possible to imagine switching from this current design > to the free Home view with a single key combination. The free Home view > would be for reorganizing activities, searching for old ones, or waking > up "dormant" ones... and the traditional view would be for actual work. > > What do you think? > > "Eben Eliason" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > >> The main issue of concern was one of scalability; The circular >> arrangement suggested an inherent finite quality which runs counter to >> our goals of allowing children to create and explore as much as >> possible. After experimenting with a number of layouts, it became >> clear that a more traditional freeform view maximizes potential use of >> the available space, retains the XO at the center (which is core to >> the zoom metaphor and reflects the philosophy of child ownership of >> laptops), and also provides, via drag'n'drop, the ability for kids to >> further personalize their Home by arranging and categorizing >> activities as they see fit. > > -- > Bastien > ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
Re: [sugar] Home Design: Free Layout View
Let me add my 2 cents of discrepancy here. What I like about the current circular Home view is: - *order*: in the free-form desktop, there is no way to vizualize the order in which activities have been launched. Knowing this is useful when children and teachers try to share activities and want to know what was the first one they opened, for example. - *limits*: it has been often noticed that children tend to open too many activities at the same time, thus making the machine hanging. While I understand the clear-horizon hypothesis (explore freely!), I guess it's somewhat contradictory with this recurrent complaint. A circular view might as well be some kind of metaphor about the memory/computational limits of the XO... - *distinction*: the current Home view is very easy to recognize. With the free desktop view there is less visual distinction, and children might consider activities are organized as a network of activities talking to each others (which will become reality for XO-3, I'm pretty confident.) Ok: order, limits, distinction, this sounds a bit fascist. But I guess it's possible to imagine switching from this current design to the free Home view with a single key combination. The free Home view would be for reorganizing activities, searching for old ones, or waking up "dormant" ones... and the traditional view would be for actual work. What do you think? "Eben Eliason" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > The main issue of concern was one of scalability; The circular > arrangement suggested an inherent finite quality which runs counter to > our goals of allowing children to create and explore as much as > possible. After experimenting with a number of layouts, it became > clear that a more traditional freeform view maximizes potential use of > the available space, retains the XO at the center (which is core to > the zoom metaphor and reflects the philosophy of child ownership of > laptops), and also provides, via drag'n'drop, the ability for kids to > further personalize their Home by arranging and categorizing > activities as they see fit. -- Bastien ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
Re: [sugar] Home Design: Free Layout View
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Thu, Jun 12, 2008 at 09:56:45PM +0200, Bert Freudenberg wrote: >On 12.06.2008, at 21:08, Eben Eliason wrote: > >> Please observe the new design mockups on the wiki at >> http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Designs/Activity_Management for further >> details. As code freeze is rapidly approaching and these changes are >> slated for the August release aside the rest of the redesign, your >> feedback is greatly appreciated. Thanks! > >Hehe. Back to the desktop ;) Yeah, kind of reminded me of the evolution of the MacOS Finder: In ancient versions there was only a flat space, then later they added the concept of a folder hierarchy. So I wondered: When will you propose to organize the many activities hierarchical? :-) >But it is a much better use of space, so no disagreement here. Agreed. - Jonas - -- * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist og Internet-arkitekt * Tlf.: +45 40843136 Website: http://dr.jones.dk/ - Enden er nær: http://www.shibumi.org/eoti.htm -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAkhRhPAACgkQn7DbMsAkQLhJXwCfccUqhLcStoosY6KOFstgVwk3 DOEAniYHg67TkFRKBFOQ6lOu1L2V77fy =RV9c -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
Re: [sugar] Home Design: Free Layout View
On 12.06.2008, at 21:08, Eben Eliason wrote: > Please observe the new design mockups on the wiki at > http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Designs/Activity_Management for further > details. As code freeze is rapidly approaching and these changes are > slated for the August release aside the rest of the redesign, your > feedback is greatly appreciated. Thanks! Hehe. Back to the desktop ;) But it is a much better use of space, so no disagreement here. - Bert - ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
[sugar] Home Design: Free Layout View
At a recent meeting with Nicholas, some reservations about the redesign of Sugar were brought up, specifically with regard to the layout of the Home view. While the broader shift in perspective which places activities and other active status elements in the Frame was unanimously welcomed as a Good Thing, the presentation of the activities within Home was not. The main issue of concern was one of scalability; The circular arrangement suggested an inherent finite quality which runs counter to our goals of allowing children to create and explore as much as possible. After experimenting with a number of layouts, it became clear that a more traditional freeform view maximizes potential use of the available space, retains the XO at the center (which is core to the zoom metaphor and reflects the philosophy of child ownership of laptops), and also provides, via drag'n'drop, the ability for kids to further personalize their Home by arranging and categorizing activities as they see fit. While we contend that the notion of favorites is still a powerful organizational tool, and therefore propose to keep it in the new designs, this free view scales well enough to prevent the need for using them if one doesn't wish to. Please observe the new design mockups on the wiki at http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Designs/Activity_Management for further details. As code freeze is rapidly approaching and these changes are slated for the August release aside the rest of the redesign, your feedback is greatly appreciated. Thanks! - Eben PS. While considering the implementation details of the new Home design, an interesting extension of this idea was proposed: a modular layout system. It would take as input the coordinates of the dropped icon (and those of all others on screen as well), and output coordinates for where the icons should actually be drawn. (We could also include metadata such as name, tags, etc. to allow sorting, grouping and such.) The simplest layout is the identity function, naturally. A slightly more interesting layout would be the identity function, with some extra jiggle logic to prevent overlapping icons. Another possibility, of course, is to compute the angle between the center of the screen and the coordinate of the dropped icon, compute a radius r based on the total number of icons, and then draw all of the dropped icons in a ring of radius r with the newly dropped one at the appropriate position in the ring. One can imagine many more, and more importantly, the possibility for an extensible system which allows kids to create their own custom layouts. ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
