Re: [sugar] offline moodle

[Martin Langhoff]

On Wed, Jul 2, 2008 at 4:19 PM, David Van Assche <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Yeah, after looking a bit deeper into it, AIR isn't entirely open source,
> though it uses open source parts which are interesting to us (sqlite for
> example)

Thanks for confirming that.

> Let's wait to see what Bryan from OLE Nepal has in mind in terms of the
> person he mentioned, and I can certainly help with that. I get the
> underlying architecture needed... and now understand why you looked into
> Gears for an offline app...

:-)

No need to wait. If you can help, feel free to make a start looking at
packaging GG in an RPM for the XO. This needs to happen, and that in
itself doesn't need many decisions or waiting for anyone. Have a look
at how Firefox (xpi?) packages are built and configured for Fedora 9,
and try to repro that ;-) If you hop on the fedora-devel mailing list,
and mention you are helping olpc, people will probably be keen to lend
a hand with packaging-related questions.

> Yep read most of the thread and understand the difference... though from a
> recent conversation with Colin, he seems much more inclined to do something
> along the lines of Gears and Sqlite now... I'll forward the mail your way so
> you can have a quick browse...

that's good to hear :-).  OU will deliver based on what they started -
and that's a good thing for their users.  It's not that compelling for
us as we already have excellent collab tools on the XO. Longer term, I
think they might hop on board  the GG train too. We have to be careful
to make it useful for XO and for others too, so those others help us
out.

cheers,



martin
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Re: [sugar] offline moodle

[David Van Assche]

Hi Martin,


Unfortunately, it's unlikely to matter in practice :-/ GG has been
> open sourced at last (the initial license wasn't open enough), and
> it's starting to gain adoption. We can only ship a limited amount of
> sw on the XO and GG is gathering steam AFAICS. Unless AIR is based on
> GG, the slot will be probably taken by GG.
>
> And it's a good thing too. Google has shown that understands FOSS and
> is making some long term bets on it. Adobe... well...
>

Yeah, after looking a bit deeper into it, AIR isn't entirely open source,
though it uses open source parts which are interesting to us (sqlite for
example)


>
> > I guess I'm going to regret this, but I'll volunteer, if you've got time
> to
> > guide me in areas I need. I've got lots of experience with Moodle
> including
> > teaching, and had a php based web development company for 6 years, so I
> > guess I should be able to do this... though I hate coding...
>
> You'll have to be pretty independent (my time is very stretched atm),
> but if you jump on the offline moodle forum and we can start a
> discussion. Having said that, with time and dedication, you can
> probably get the core of it going :-)
>

Let's wait to see what Bryan from OLE Nepal has in mind in terms of the
person he mentioned, and I can certainly help with that. I get the
underlying architecture needed... and now understand why you looked into
Gears for an offline app...


machinery with their plan. If you search in the general developer
> forum, we had a very long thread between Colin (the architect @ OU)
> and myself fleshing out the plan, and what the limits were.
> Unfortunately I don't have the link handy :-/
>

Yep read most of the thread and understand the difference... though from a
recent conversation with Colin, he seems much more inclined to do something
along the lines of Gears and Sqlite now... I'll forward the mail your way so
you can have a quick browse...

Kind Regards,
David Van Assche
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Re: [sugar] offline moodle

[Martin Langhoff]

On Tue, Jul 1, 2008 at 11:50 PM, David Van Assche <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> The developers seem highly motivated to do something that would work for
> olpc too, its basically their Master's thesis, and they seem to have a good

Cool. It will be great if they can help :-)

> In terms of Adobe AIR, I think it
> and Flex are open source, at least Flex definitly is, and I think Adobe is
> moving very seriously and very quickly in the open source direction. Talking
> to Adobe is always an option, or perhaps I'm dreaming a little :-)

Unfortunately, it's unlikely to matter in practice :-/ GG has been
open sourced at last (the initial license wasn't open enough), and
it's starting to gain adoption. We can only ship a limited amount of
sw on the XO and GG is gathering steam AFAICS. Unless AIR is based on
GG, the slot will be probably taken by GG.

And it's a good thing too. Google has shown that understands FOSS and
is making some long term bets on it. Adobe... well...

> I guess I'm going to regret this, but I'll volunteer, if you've got time to
> guide me in areas I need. I've got lots of experience with Moodle including
> teaching, and had a php based web development company for 6 years, so I
> guess I should be able to do this... though I hate coding...

You'll have to be pretty independent (my time is very stretched atm),
but if you jump on the offline moodle forum and we can start a
discussion. Having said that, with time and dedication, you can
probably get the core of it going :-)

> I've asked for the source code, so we'll se what they say...

I am more interested in *this* track, something GG-based :-)

> Open University has a LOT of content and material concerning offline moodle
> and it makes sense to colaborate with them as much as possible.

Yes, but note that their goals are _very_ limited. Read into the
details, and you'll see it's mainly about static content. Due to
various issues collaboration tools cannot run via the offline
machinery with their plan. If you search in the general developer
forum, we had a very long thread between Colin (the architect @ OU)
and myself fleshing out the plan, and what the limits were.
Unfortunately I don't have the link handy :-/

cheers,



m
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Re: [sugar] offline moodle

[Sameer Verma]

Bryan Berry wrote:
> That's a great overview David,
>
> We need to get working quickly on developing course materials. Our two
> full-time educators, Kamana and Sunil, currently write out lesson plans
> and activity descriptions in MS Word. Not quite ideal :)
> I want to get them using Moodle asap. It will improve collaboration b/w
> the developers and educators. Also, we are currently storing
> supplementary materials on the fileserver, which is again a pretty lousy
> way to do it. Kamana and Sunil want to lay out a whole course, i.e.,
> class2 mathematics with descriptions of activities and exercises they
> want developed, and then help the developers build activities that meet
> their ideas. Eventually I want to put the courses on a public server (if
> I had the hosting budget) so volunteers can more easily create
> activities to meet the ideas dreamt up by Sunil and Kamana.
>
>   

The last time I was at a moodlemoot (2007) there was some talk about 
Common Cartridge spec 
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IMS_Global#Common_Cartridge) as the way to 
go for materials that can be plugged into Moodle and other LMS 
environments supporting the spec. i haven't kept up with it, but I am 
sure Martin L or Jason Cole (copied) can comment on it.

Our campus came across this problem because as a campus running 
completely on moodle, we ran into hot water with publishers who wouldn't 
provide materials under "yet another spec". Our thinking at the time was 
that publishers should write to a common spec such as Common Cartridge 
and all others (Blackboard, etc) can follow it as well.

Should materials be developed using such a spec?

Sameer

-- 
Dr. Sameer Verma, Ph.D.
Associate Professor of Information Systems
San Francisco State University
San Francisco CA 94132 USA
http://verma.sfsu.edu/
http://opensource.sfsu.edu/

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Re: [sugar] offline moodle

[David Van Assche]

> Cool. This is somewhat of a re-post of an earlier message to
> server-devel, IIRC. I'm glad you've done more research on the jolongo
> track as I hadn't heard of it before.
>

The developers seem highly motivated to do something that would work for
olpc too, its basically their Master's thesis, and they seem to have a good
working knowledge of how it all fits together. I hope I can get it working
with jolongo on a regular laptop and see what is required to get it to work
on sub size laptops... Although I agree that in the long term its probably
going to be better to go the other route. In terms of Adobe AIR, I think it
and Flex are open source, at least Flex definitly is, and I think Adobe is
moving very seriously and very quickly in the open source direction. Talking
to Adobe is always an option, or perhaps I'm dreaming a little :-)


>
> > 1. Open University Moodfle on a stick
>
> As you say, I have been involved on this track. The work OU is doing
> is great, and it advances Moodle in various fronts that we care about.
> The overall implementation of it is not a good long term bet for us.
> It might be feasible short term but it will surely need a ton of work
> to fly, including a port to sqlite and a threaded or forking webserver
> in pure PHP.
>

Ok, the sqlite part is pretty much done... at least there are 3 patches
availble on Moodle.org which work for at least one version of moodle... in
terms of a webserver, surely there's something already out there that is
usable already... does it really have to be done from scratch? (I don't know
enough about this, other than that there are a lot of light httpd servers
already, so maybe I don't know what I'm talking about.)

I also found this, which you may have already seen, but its a very thorough
breakdown of how OU sees the development process of offline moodle with step
by step screenshots, flow diagrams, etc:
http://hawk.aos.ecu.edu/mobilemoodle/v0.5/introduction-synchronisation-interface.html

and this, their offline moodle Moodle:
http://hawk.aos.ecu.edu/moodle/course/view.php?id=22

and a set of instructions I found after doing it all myself manually :-)
http://www.greenhughes.com/content/learn-go-openlearn-kubuntu-and-moodle

(btw... although there is no linux installer, it took very little time to
replicate the offline moodle environment on an asus eeepc running its
original OS, with almost no visible overhead... (apt-get install moodle
apache2 mysql-server mysql-client php5 php-pear php-mysql was all that was
needed) the XO was a little more complicated (needed an xampp installer) but
has also little overhead, though obviously more than the eeepc, and
hopefully I can try it on a next gen atom based classmate running sugar, to
see how it fares... more data the better right?)


>
> In other words, if there's anyone interested in doing the heavy
> lifting, I can provide a bit of mentoring on what needs to be tuned on
> the PHP & Moodle side. It will need a wrapper similar to the
> wikislices activity too.
>

I guess I'm going to regret this, but I'll volunteer, if you've got time to
guide me in areas I need. I've got lots of experience with Moodle including
teaching, and had a php based web development company for 6 years, so I
guess I should be able to do this... though I hate coding...


>
> > 2. Jolongo (meaning backpack in slang Latin American Spanish)
>
> also a Spanish native speaker - but I didn't know Jolongo as a slang term
> :-)
>
> > adobe AIR
>
> That is possibly not redistributable by us :-(
>
> Is there a good explanation anywhere of what techniques are being
> used? My long term plans are to work on a disconnected operation based
> on Google-Gears or something similar. XPycom is included with Browse
> IIRC, but it's very hard to get traction ustream with an XO-only
> technology, so GG is much more likely to be a long-term viable plan.
>

Here is what they say about Jolongo development (note, interestingly they
are using sqlite...):

Our program is entirely programmed in Adobe Air (open source) and we are
using some 
PHPcode
(that will also be freely available) to connect our offline
SQL ite
Databaseto
our online
MySQLdatabase.
The
project  is similar (with
less features, at this stage) to Open University's Moodle Offline Project,
but we are not installing a modified Moodle server to the desktop, just
Adobe Air Runtime (free plugin) and our program (Jolongo). Those, allowed us
to maintain our SQLite database (without the need for any other
installations) and the communications between this offline database and
Moodle's online database.


> If the AIR-based code can be ported to GG, then it could be a viable t

Re: [sugar] offline Moodle

[Bryan Berry]

I should caveat that this is my idea on how best to use him. others in
the OLE Nepal team may want him to focus more on our fedora-commons
based E-Library. don't worry, it's all open-source :) and all will code
and config will be available by an open-source license except for our
passwords :)

-Original Message-
From: Martin Langhoff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Bryan Berry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: sugar@lists.laptop.org, David Van Assche <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: offline Moodle
Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 23:06:00 -0400

That is great to hear! It's not an easy space though, I don't want to

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Re: [sugar] offline Moodle

[Martin Langhoff]

On Tue, Jul 1, 2008 at 8:49 PM, Bryan Berry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I will be speaking w/ a potential full-time volunteer today who has some
> significant web development experience. I will discuss w/ him the
> possibility of working almost entirely on offline Moodle for the next 12
> months. He may take you up on your generous offer of mentoring.

That is great to hear! It's not an easy space though, I don't want to
scare anyone, but it is a complex area to work in :-)

cheers,


m
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Re: [sugar] offline Moodle

[Bryan Berry]

Martin,

I will be speaking w/ a potential full-time volunteer today who has some
significant web development experience. I will discuss w/ him the
possibility of working almost entirely on offline Moodle for the next 12
months. He may take you up on your generous offer of mentoring.

>In other words, if there's anyone interested in doing the heavy
>lifting, I can provide a bit of mentoring on what needs to be tuned on
>the PHP & Moodle side. It will need a wrapper similar to the
>wikislices activity too.


>used? My long term plans are to work on a disconnected operation based
>on Google-Gears or something similar. XPycom is included with Browse

I also think that Google Gears is the long term way to go






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Re: [sugar] offline moodle

[Martin Langhoff]

On Mon, Jun 30, 2008 at 4:01 AM, David Van Assche <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>I'm currently working with OLE Nepal to find the best solution for
> synchronising online and offline course material via Moodle. There are
> currently 2 projects that do exactly this via different mechanisms, though
> currently they use what some might consider to be a heavy memory and cpu
> footprint by using the same mechanisms of a regular online moodle (namely a
> webserver, server side scripting and database (mysql or sqlite) )

Cool. This is somewhat of a re-post of an earlier message to
server-devel, IIRC. I'm glad you've done more research on the jolongo
track as I hadn't heard of it before.

> 1. Open University Moodfle on a stick

As you say, I have been involved on this track. The work OU is doing
is great, and it advances Moodle in various fronts that we care about.
The overall implementation of it is not a good long term bet for us.
It might be feasible short term but it will surely need a ton of work
to fly, including a port to sqlite and a threaded or forking webserver
in pure PHP.

In other words, if there's anyone interested in doing the heavy
lifting, I can provide a bit of mentoring on what needs to be tuned on
the PHP & Moodle side. It will need a wrapper similar to the
wikislices activity too.

> 2. Jolongo (meaning backpack in slang Latin American Spanish)

also a Spanish native speaker - but I didn't know Jolongo as a slang term :-)

> adobe AIR

That is possibly not redistributable by us :-(

Is there a good explanation anywhere of what techniques are being
used? My long term plans are to work on a disconnected operation based
on Google-Gears or something similar. XPycom is included with Browse
IIRC, but it's very hard to get traction ustream with an XO-only
technology, so GG is much more likely to be a long-term viable plan.

If the AIR-based code can be ported to GG, then it could be a viable track.

> version will be using sqlite, so that could even things out. Giving it a
> couple of months will allow us to see which one of these projects is the
> best adapted to usage by OLE and olpc.

For OLPC, I suspect AIR is a no-go due to licensing reasons. Gears, on
the other hand, is definitely possible.

cheers,




m
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Re: [sugar] offline moodle

[Bryan Berry]

>Don't you have a local moodle install in the office? that might help in
>the very short run...

already set up and hope to get Kamana and Sunil started on it later this
week. 

>What is surprising is how fast it runs... basically instant
>gratification... though maybe flash intensive items might slow it 

great to hear, I bet w/ optimizations we could really throttle down
mysql and apache until sqlite support is ready for moodle

>I mentioned there are quite a few moodle plugins that allow for
>embedded flash content (not sure about etoys)
We could just embed a link to launch etoys as a separate application,
not w/in the browser. This will require hacking the sugar security
mechanisms but we can do it.

Bernie also tried xamp on the XO and says it was fairly responsive



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Re: [sugar] offline moodle

[David Van Assche]

Hi Bryan,

Comments are inline...

On Mon, Jun 30, 2008 at 1:05 PM, Bryan Berry <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> That's a great overview David,
>
> We need to get working quickly on developing course materials. Our two
> full-time educators, Kamana and Sunil, currently write out lesson plans
> and activity descriptions in MS Word. Not quite ideal :)
>

Don't you have a local moodle install in the office? that might help in the
very short run...


> I want to get them using Moodle asap. It will improve collaboration b/w
> the developers and educators. Also, we are currently storing
> supplementary materials on the fileserver, which is again a pretty lousy
> way to do it. Kamana and Sunil want to lay out a whole course, i.e.,
> class2 mathematics with descriptions of activities and exercises they
> want developed, and then help the developers build activities that meet
> their ideas. Eventually I want to put the courses on a public server (if
> I had the hosting budget) so volunteers can more easily create
> activities to meet the ideas dreamt up by Sunil and Kamana.
>

yeah, in terms of supplementary materials, I suggest looking at DOOR, which
allows for exporting and importing of such materials to the moodle community
(and other IMS based systems) at large. But the best solution for what you
mention is of course some kind of offline moodle.


>
> >and at the moment only the course material is downloaded (no events, no
> >task
> >manager, etc.)
>
> At the moment, this is enough for us to work w/, just the static
> materials. What was the resource consumption of Jolongo on your eeePC?
>

I've got bad news about Jolongo. At the moment it will not install on the
eeepc, I'm trying to iron out bugs with developers of the Jolongo team, but
it could take some time. In terms of Adobe AIR, that totally kils the XO...
as in, try to install it and the system reboots, and takes the journal with
it. So, I guess that's a no-go for the time being.


>
> Perhaps an interim option as we wait for the offline clients to mature
> is to write a shell script that harvests the static html and embedded
> activities like Flash and Etoys to an .xo bundle.
>

I mentioned there are quite a few moodle plugins that allow for embedded
flash content (not sure about etoys)... but... the import/export function of
Moodle, which is what both offline moodle solutions use to transfer courses
is probably your best bet.

Now for the good news (maybe.) I've managed to get
apache2+php5+mysql5+moodle working great on the asus eeepc. I first tried
installing with an xampp package, which works ok, but then you have to
install moodle manually from source, and put it in the right places. So I
tried the old fashioned way (apt-get install moodle apache2 mysql-server
mysql-client php5 php-mysql php-pear) and voila... it installed everything
necessary and it was just a matter of going to localhost/moodle to do the
rest. With that setup it is very easy to create local courses then export
them to another moodle... a one click  process...  basically... this is the
open university way... and I'm now going to try the same with the XO -
incremental backups which I'm looking into now.

What is surprising is how fast it runs... basically instant gratification...
though maybe flash intensive items might slow it down... If you could give
the course creators eeepcs instead of XOs, the issue would be solved...

Kind Regards,
David
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Re: [sugar] offline moodle

[Bryan Berry]

That's a great overview David,

We need to get working quickly on developing course materials. Our two
full-time educators, Kamana and Sunil, currently write out lesson plans
and activity descriptions in MS Word. Not quite ideal :)
I want to get them using Moodle asap. It will improve collaboration b/w
the developers and educators. Also, we are currently storing
supplementary materials on the fileserver, which is again a pretty lousy
way to do it. Kamana and Sunil want to lay out a whole course, i.e.,
class2 mathematics with descriptions of activities and exercises they
want developed, and then help the developers build activities that meet
their ideas. Eventually I want to put the courses on a public server (if
I had the hosting budget) so volunteers can more easily create
activities to meet the ideas dreamt up by Sunil and Kamana.

>and at the moment only the course material is downloaded (no events, no
>task
>manager, etc.)

At the moment, this is enough for us to work w/, just the static
materials. What was the resource consumption of Jolongo on your eeePC?

Perhaps an interim option as we wait for the offline clients to mature
is to write a shell script that harvests the static html and embedded
activities like Flash and Etoys to an .xo bundle.


David wrote:
Conclusion

> For now, it seems like both projects are still ironing out the finer
>details, with the OU version seeming to be the more complete project.
However, the Jolongo project, with its reliance on Adobe AIR might be both
lighter and more portable, as well as easier to install. That said, the OU
version will be using sqlite, so that could even things out. Giving it a
couple of months will allow us to see which one of these projects is the
best adapted to usage by OLE and olpc.
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[sugar] offline moodle

[David Van Assche]

Hi,
   I'm currently working with OLE Nepal to find the best solution for
synchronising online and offline course material via Moodle. There are
currently 2 projects that do exactly this via different mechanisms, though
currently they use what some might consider to be a heavy memory and cpu
footprint by using the same mechanisms of a regular online moodle (namely a
webserver, server side scripting and database (mysql or sqlite) )

I'll talk about the 2 options in detail below and what their status is in
terms of finished development work.

1. Open University Moodfle on a stick

This, till now seems to be the more worked on version, with support from
both Open University and Intel. Martin Langhoff has also been involved in
some of the coding for this, with the intention of using it for the XS and
XOs... At present, the system is highly windows centric with a Linux version
planned. That said, we are really only talking about an installer, as the
environment is easy enough to build and is done like so:

- Install the xampp package (apachefriends.org/en/xampp-linux.html)
- Install Moodle and sqlite patches. (Currently sqlite support is a Google
summer of code project which should be fully functional by August, making it
a viable option for the XOs)
- Secure Moodle and enter test data
- Install 3rd party Moodle plugins of interest (to date the DOOR plugin for
adding a course resource repository seems very promissing)

Installing xampp with mysql is also possible, in the interim, while the
sqlite port of moodle is being completed, but looking at the memory and CPU
footprint on an Asus eeepc and an XO shows that it is preferable to have
sqlite for the final product (I will post exact data in reference to this
soon.) Incremental backups is the current focus of the OU moodfle project
and when that is done, I believe it will be the best option for installation
on the XOs

2. Jolongo (meaning backpack in slang Latin American Spanish)

This project seems very promising, and having spoken to the developers, they
are both honoured and motivated to be working on something that might be
used by OLPC. Right now, the majority of their work is in Spanish (which is
not a problem for me as Spanish is a native language for me), but the
interface might need some translating... Their system has been packaged with
adobe AIR, making it totally cross platform and a one click package to
install and run. Adobe AIR, however, is currently in alpha stage for linux,
and from what I've gathered so far, will not install on an Asus eeepc. I've
still to try and see if it will install on the XO. On another laptop, I've
managed to get it running along with Jolongo, which after installing gives
you a visual representation of a minimal moodle which synchs with an online
moodle using a username and password, along with the mother moodle url. But
this is currently quite iffy... as in it sometimes works, sometimes doesn't,
and at the moment only the course material is downloaded (no events, no task
manager, etc.) I am in contact with the developers who were keen on me beta
testing it, and they are doing what they can to make it more stable.. I will
post progress as it happens.

Conclusion

For now, it seems like both projects are still ironing out the finer
details, with the OU version seeming to be the more complete project.
However, the Jolongo project, with its reliance on Adobe AIR might be both
lighter and more portable, as well as easier to install. That said, the OU
version will be using sqlite, so that could even things out. Giving it a
couple of months will allow us to see which one of these projects is the
best adapted to usage by OLE and olpc.
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