Re: [sugar] frame activation
On 10.06.2008, at 12:15, Tomeu Vizoso wrote: > Hi, > > do we have any feedback regarding frame activation and the new control > panel option? > > Is it ok to ship with hot corners on by default and let the users > change it if they wish? As much as I hate the mouse activation, I still think this is a sensible default. On the XO we have a Frame key, but on other hw discovering the frame could be a lot harder. - Bert - ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
Re: [sugar] frame activation
Bert's point is a good one and a further argument for keeping it configurable. On my XO, the touchpad is flaky but there is a frame key. On my HP, the touchpad is reasonably stable, but I need to remember an undiscoverable keyboard binding. So I would like to have almost opposite behaviors depending upon the hardware. -walter On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 6:19 AM, Bert Freudenberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On 10.06.2008, at 12:15, Tomeu Vizoso wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> do we have any feedback regarding frame activation and the new control >> panel option? >> >> Is it ok to ship with hot corners on by default and let the users >> change it if they wish? > > > As much as I hate the mouse activation, I still think this is a > sensible default. On the XO we have a Frame key, but on other hw > discovering the frame could be a lot harder. > > - Bert - > > > ___ > Sugar mailing list > Sugar@lists.laptop.org > http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar > ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
Re: [sugar] frame activation
>> do we have any feedback regarding frame activation and the new control >> panel option? > As much as I hate the mouse activation, I still think this is a > sensible default. On the XO we have a Frame key, but on other hw > discovering the frame could be a lot harder. From using Joyride 2024, the new GUI option seems user-friendly (though the user needs to have the jabber_server_name written down beforehand, so he can type it in). But the old CLI option is still being supported -- and in its current state I find it confusing and inconsistent. The CLI should be friendlier (or be done away with). I myself think frame activation at the corners is an abomination - but as long as the "Software Release Notes" CLEARLY tell the user: "Here is how to get rid of it", I'll accept it being on by default. [ Though using '2000' to mean 'never' seems strange (are floating point numbers being compared ?) ] What I myself do on other hw is to go into 'keyhandler.py', and define a spare F-key to be 'frame'. Then I can activate the frame using my non-XO keyboard. mikus ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
Re: [sugar] frame activation
I've played with it a lot. I think that a 1/3 second delay goes a long way to preventing accidental activation, but likely isn't long enough to prevent discovery, especially in a classroom full of kids. If everyone tests it out with a delay in this range and agrees, we could institute a delay between 1/3 and 1/2 second by default and probably provide a better out-of-the-box experience. - Eben On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 8:08 AM, Walter Bender <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Bert's point is a good one and a further argument for keeping it > configurable. On my XO, the touchpad is flaky but there is a frame > key. On my HP, the touchpad is reasonably stable, but I need to > remember an undiscoverable keyboard binding. So I would like to have > almost opposite behaviors depending upon the hardware. > > -walter > > On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 6:19 AM, Bert Freudenberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> On 10.06.2008, at 12:15, Tomeu Vizoso wrote: >> >>> Hi, >>> >>> do we have any feedback regarding frame activation and the new control >>> panel option? >>> >>> Is it ok to ship with hot corners on by default and let the users >>> change it if they wish? >> >> >> As much as I hate the mouse activation, I still think this is a >> sensible default. On the XO we have a Frame key, but on other hw >> discovering the frame could be a lot harder. >> >> - Bert - >> >> >> ___ >> Sugar mailing list >> Sugar@lists.laptop.org >> http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar >> > ___ > Sugar mailing list > Sugar@lists.laptop.org > http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar > ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
Re: [sugar] frame activation
Can we set up an actually experiment with some children? Uruguay, Paraguay, and Peru all agreed to help. This seems like a obvious place to start. -walter On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 11:33 AM, Eben Eliason <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I've played with it a lot. I think that a 1/3 second delay goes a > long way to preventing accidental activation, but likely isn't long > enough to prevent discovery, especially in a classroom full of kids. > If everyone tests it out with a delay in this range and agrees, we > could institute a delay between 1/3 and 1/2 second by default and > probably provide a better out-of-the-box experience. > > - Eben > > > On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 8:08 AM, Walter Bender <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> Bert's point is a good one and a further argument for keeping it >> configurable. On my XO, the touchpad is flaky but there is a frame >> key. On my HP, the touchpad is reasonably stable, but I need to >> remember an undiscoverable keyboard binding. So I would like to have >> almost opposite behaviors depending upon the hardware. >> >> -walter >> >> On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 6:19 AM, Bert Freudenberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >>> On 10.06.2008, at 12:15, Tomeu Vizoso wrote: >>> Hi, do we have any feedback regarding frame activation and the new control panel option? Is it ok to ship with hot corners on by default and let the users change it if they wish? >>> >>> >>> As much as I hate the mouse activation, I still think this is a >>> sensible default. On the XO we have a Frame key, but on other hw >>> discovering the frame could be a lot harder. >>> >>> - Bert - >>> >>> >>> ___ >>> Sugar mailing list >>> Sugar@lists.laptop.org >>> http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar >>> >> ___ >> Sugar mailing list >> Sugar@lists.laptop.org >> http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar >> > ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
Re: [sugar] frame activation
On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 11:39 AM, Walter Bender <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Can we set up an actually experiment with some children? Uruguay, > Paraguay, and Peru all agreed to help. This seems like a obvious place > to start. Yes, that would be helpful as well. In order to make that feasible, we need to find a good way to let them install builds for testing purposes. I suspect that Scott might have been considering this use case when he mentioned breaking the builds into development/unstable, testing, QA, and stable. Ideally we'd provide a singed testing build so that the kids don't all need to request dev keys to get us the proper feedback. Can anyone provide insight onto how/when we might be able to do this? - Eben ps I did help Carla get a dev key and install a testing build including the new activity launching feedback and the control panel, so that she had at least one machine for testing these features and the delay on the Frame. > -walter > > On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 11:33 AM, Eben Eliason <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> I've played with it a lot. I think that a 1/3 second delay goes a >> long way to preventing accidental activation, but likely isn't long >> enough to prevent discovery, especially in a classroom full of kids. >> If everyone tests it out with a delay in this range and agrees, we >> could institute a delay between 1/3 and 1/2 second by default and >> probably provide a better out-of-the-box experience. >> >> - Eben >> >> >> On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 8:08 AM, Walter Bender <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >>> Bert's point is a good one and a further argument for keeping it >>> configurable. On my XO, the touchpad is flaky but there is a frame >>> key. On my HP, the touchpad is reasonably stable, but I need to >>> remember an undiscoverable keyboard binding. So I would like to have >>> almost opposite behaviors depending upon the hardware. >>> >>> -walter >>> >>> On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 6:19 AM, Bert Freudenberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: On 10.06.2008, at 12:15, Tomeu Vizoso wrote: > Hi, > > do we have any feedback regarding frame activation and the new control > panel option? > > Is it ok to ship with hot corners on by default and let the users > change it if they wish? As much as I hate the mouse activation, I still think this is a sensible default. On the XO we have a Frame key, but on other hw discovering the frame could be a lot harder. - Bert - ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar >>> ___ >>> Sugar mailing list >>> Sugar@lists.laptop.org >>> http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar >>> >> > ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
Re: [sugar] frame activation
What we need to do is come up with a clear definition of the test we want to preform. We can figure out how t get the right bits in place after that. The variables seem to be new user vs experienced user to test discoverability and the various time-constants for the default delay: perhaps 0, 1/3s, 1/2s, 1s, infinite? -walter On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 11:46 AM, Eben Eliason <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 11:39 AM, Walter Bender <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> Can we set up an actually experiment with some children? Uruguay, >> Paraguay, and Peru all agreed to help. This seems like a obvious place >> to start. > > Yes, that would be helpful as well. In order to make that feasible, > we need to find a good way to let them install builds for testing > purposes. I suspect that Scott might have been considering this use > case when he mentioned breaking the builds into development/unstable, > testing, QA, and stable. Ideally we'd provide a singed testing build > so that the kids don't all need to request dev keys to get us the > proper feedback. Can anyone provide insight onto how/when we might be > able to do this? > > - Eben > > ps I did help Carla get a dev key and install a testing build > including the new activity launching feedback and the control panel, > so that she had at least one machine for testing these features and > the delay on the Frame. > > >> -walter >> >> On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 11:33 AM, Eben Eliason <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >>> I've played with it a lot. I think that a 1/3 second delay goes a >>> long way to preventing accidental activation, but likely isn't long >>> enough to prevent discovery, especially in a classroom full of kids. >>> If everyone tests it out with a delay in this range and agrees, we >>> could institute a delay between 1/3 and 1/2 second by default and >>> probably provide a better out-of-the-box experience. >>> >>> - Eben >>> >>> >>> On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 8:08 AM, Walter Bender <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Bert's point is a good one and a further argument for keeping it configurable. On my XO, the touchpad is flaky but there is a frame key. On my HP, the touchpad is reasonably stable, but I need to remember an undiscoverable keyboard binding. So I would like to have almost opposite behaviors depending upon the hardware. -walter On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 6:19 AM, Bert Freudenberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On 10.06.2008, at 12:15, Tomeu Vizoso wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> do we have any feedback regarding frame activation and the new control >> panel option? >> >> Is it ok to ship with hot corners on by default and let the users >> change it if they wish? > > > As much as I hate the mouse activation, I still think this is a > sensible default. On the XO we have a Frame key, but on other hw > discovering the frame could be a lot harder. > > - Bert - > > > ___ > Sugar mailing list > Sugar@lists.laptop.org > http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar > ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar >>> >> > ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
Re: [sugar] frame activation
On Tue, Jun 10, 2008 at 8:39 AM, Walter Bender <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Can we set up an actually experiment with some children? Uruguay, > Paraguay, and Peru all agreed to help. This seems like a obvious place > to start. > > -walter Thank you, Walter. You are the first I have seen asking such a question. I have been wondering when we would get to asking children how a children's laptop should work. -- Edward Cherlin End Poverty at a Profit by teaching children business http://www.EarthTreasury.org/ "The best way to predict the future is to invent it."--Alan Kay ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
Re: [sugar] frame activation
On 10 Jun 2008, at 11:15, Tomeu Vizoso wrote: > do we have any feedback regarding frame activation and the new control > panel option? > > Is it ok to ship with hot corners on by default and let the users > change it if they wish? Have settled for about 500ms for the corners. I found warm edges too obtrusive even with a max delay, specifically scroll bar interaction was the main false activation. I could see me enabling specific warm edges (top being most useful). OT: Also trying to keep in the back of my mind a possible future UI metaphor where the whole input may be touch screen based, but as a well known tech put it recently, most existing UI's with a touch input layer added are like lipstick on a pig. It'll need to be an extensive redesign at that stage (sorry Eben). I guess Apple with their UI fork have more than a clue for us here. --Gary ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
Re: [sugar] frame activation
On Wed, Jun 11, 2008 at 04:16:24AM +0100, Gary C Martin wrote: > On 10 Jun 2008, at 11:15, Tomeu Vizoso wrote: > > > do we have any feedback regarding frame activation and the new control > > panel option? [...] > I found warm edges too obtrusive even with a max delay, specifically > scroll bar interaction was the main false activation. I found this as well. > --Gary Martin pgp6kiMiytPEY.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ Sugar mailing list Sugar@lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/sugar
