Re: [Sugar-devel] [PATCH] Remove the keep button from the default activity toolbar
On Fri, Apr 23, 2010 at 23:21, Walter Bender wrote: > On Fri, Apr 23, 2010 at 2:52 PM, Daniel Drake wrote: >> On 23 April 2010 15:02, Sascha Silbe >> wrote: >>> I like the proposal of renaming Keep to Copy and placing it in the palette >>> of the Stop button. I was a bit worried about it getting confused with the >>> clipboard action of the same name, but making it a secondary action of the >>> Stop button should help with that. >> >> This sounds odd. >> To make a copy of my work I have to go to the Stop menu? >> >> >> I've never seen Keep used in the field -- I've only seen misuse. >> Does anyone have any experience-backed counter opinions? > > Well, I added a keep button in Turtle Art to the default menu because > kids would throw away their projects to start new ones and lose all of > their work. (This was in part because the stop button was hard to find > in pre-0.86 and it was easier to resume an old project than to start a > new one, which only will change for 0.90). Ideally, we'd have > versioning and could get rid of keep as a concept altogether... What happened to Sascha's versioning prototype? Nobody could find time to test it and give feedback? Regards, Tomeu >> >> I still think removing the button altogether will be a big improvement >> until the more advanced Journal solutions are actually implemented, >> even though technically you could say it would cause a functionality >> regression. >> >> If someone really does want to do a bit of hacking on this, put the >> Copy/Duplicate option in the Journal details view... > > To me, this seems to be the proper place to put copy/dup. > >> Daniel >> ___ >> Sugar-devel mailing list >> Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org >> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel >> > > > > -- > Walter Bender > Sugar Labs > http://www.sugarlabs.org > ___ > Sugar-devel mailing list > Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org > http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel > ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] [PATCH] Remove the keep button from the default activity toolbar
On Fri, Apr 23, 2010 at 2:02 PM, Sascha Silbe < sascha-ml-ui-sugar-de...@silbe.org> wrote: > On Fri, Apr 23, 2010 at 01:10:53PM -0400, Frederick Grose wrote: > > I imagine that with the 'Keep a copy' action option on the proposed, >> 'Stop' button panel, Sugar Learners might see that phrase, and again, >> panic about 'saving' their Activity. An action option labelled 'Copy' may >> instead suggest that a new instance would be created, rather than suggest >> that they need to 'keep' their Activity or 'lose' it. >> > > I like the proposal of renaming Keep to Copy and placing it in the palette > of the Stop button. I was a bit worried about it getting confused with the > clipboard action of the same name, but making it a secondary action of the > Stop button should help with that. > > > The proposed 'Copy' icon might be improved by hinting that a new instance >> of the current Activity is to go (copied) into the Journal, perhaps by >> placing a new-object star (*) above the arrow pointing to the Journal. >> (See >> attached example.) >> > > At least to me this icon isn't intuitive (I wouldn't even suspect what it > does without reading the text; having read the text, the icon does not make > the meaning any more clear). Maybe we should use some icon that indicates > duplication? I can't think of one right now (two Journals wouldn't be right > because we duplicate an entry, not the entire Journal), but maybe someone > else has an idea? Here's another attempt to symbolize the concept in a 'keepcopy' icon derived from the paste icon, since we are pasting a new copy into the Journal. --Fred <>___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] [PATCH] Remove the keep button from the default activity toolbar
On Fri, Apr 23, 2010 at 2:52 PM, Daniel Drake wrote: > On 23 April 2010 15:02, Sascha Silbe > wrote: >> I like the proposal of renaming Keep to Copy and placing it in the palette >> of the Stop button. I was a bit worried about it getting confused with the >> clipboard action of the same name, but making it a secondary action of the >> Stop button should help with that. > > This sounds odd. > To make a copy of my work I have to go to the Stop menu? > > > I've never seen Keep used in the field -- I've only seen misuse. > Does anyone have any experience-backed counter opinions? Well, I added a keep button in Turtle Art to the default menu because kids would throw away their projects to start new ones and lose all of their work. (This was in part because the stop button was hard to find in pre-0.86 and it was easier to resume an old project than to start a new one, which only will change for 0.90). Ideally, we'd have versioning and could get rid of keep as a concept altogether... > > I still think removing the button altogether will be a big improvement > until the more advanced Journal solutions are actually implemented, > even though technically you could say it would cause a functionality > regression. > > If someone really does want to do a bit of hacking on this, put the > Copy/Duplicate option in the Journal details view... To me, this seems to be the proper place to put copy/dup. > Daniel > ___ > Sugar-devel mailing list > Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org > http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel > -- Walter Bender Sugar Labs http://www.sugarlabs.org ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] [PATCH] Remove the keep button from the default activity toolbar
On 23 April 2010 15:02, Sascha Silbe wrote: > I like the proposal of renaming Keep to Copy and placing it in the palette > of the Stop button. I was a bit worried about it getting confused with the > clipboard action of the same name, but making it a secondary action of the > Stop button should help with that. This sounds odd. To make a copy of my work I have to go to the Stop menu? I've never seen Keep used in the field -- I've only seen misuse. Does anyone have any experience-backed counter opinions? I still think removing the button altogether will be a big improvement until the more advanced Journal solutions are actually implemented, even though technically you could say it would cause a functionality regression. If someone really does want to do a bit of hacking on this, put the Copy/Duplicate option in the Journal details view... Daniel ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] [PATCH] Remove the keep button from the default activity toolbar
On Fri, Apr 23, 2010 at 09:48:30AM -0400, Bernie Innocenti wrote: Ugh. We clearly need to put a lot more thought into Journal interaction: FWIW, we mostly need someone to actually implement many of the nice Journal designs [1] - somebody has already put some thought into the design, but so far nobody had time to implement it. * lack of multiple selection makes certain tasks such as copying 10 photos to a pendrive amazingly repetitive and slow. * lack of a size column in the list view makes it hard to identify large items that could be deleted to free up some space. FWIW (i.e. probably not much), my "Janitor" (*) activity prototype [2] already does both of these. I tried to keep close to the Journal design for multiple selection [3], but needed to postpone it because even after several hours of fighting with GTK I didn't even get the header colors to match. :-/ You can try out the activity without fear for your data, BTW: the "Erase" action currently only removes the entry from the list, but not the data store. For the "real" thing I'll probably use some kind of Commit button to execute all queued changes and provide Undo/Redo functions. (*) I'm aware the name is a noun, not a verb. Until I come up with a better one this is the working title; suggestions are quite welcome. [1] http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Design_Team/Designs/Journal [2] git://git.sugarlabs.org/janitor/mainline.git [3] http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Design_Team/Designs/Journal#06 CU Sascha -- http://sascha.silbe.org/ http://www.infra-silbe.de/ signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] [PATCH] Remove the keep button from the default activity toolbar
On Fri, Apr 23, 2010 at 01:10:53PM -0400, Frederick Grose wrote: I imagine that with the 'Keep a copy' action option on the proposed, 'Stop' button panel, Sugar Learners might see that phrase, and again, panic about 'saving' their Activity. An action option labelled 'Copy' may instead suggest that a new instance would be created, rather than suggest that they need to 'keep' their Activity or 'lose' it. I like the proposal of renaming Keep to Copy and placing it in the palette of the Stop button. I was a bit worried about it getting confused with the clipboard action of the same name, but making it a secondary action of the Stop button should help with that. The proposed 'Copy' icon might be improved by hinting that a new instance of the current Activity is to go (copied) into the Journal, perhaps by placing a new-object star (*) above the arrow pointing to the Journal. (See attached example.) At least to me this icon isn't intuitive (I wouldn't even suspect what it does without reading the text; having read the text, the icon does not make the meaning any more clear). Maybe we should use some icon that indicates duplication? I can't think of one right now (two Journals wouldn't be right because we duplicate an entry, not the entire Journal), but maybe someone else has an idea? CU Sascha -- http://sascha.silbe.org/ http://www.infra-silbe.de/ signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] [PATCH] Remove the keep button from the default activity toolbar
On Fri, Apr 23, 2010 at 9:48 AM, Bernie Innocenti wrote: > On Thu, 2010-04-22 at 23:35 -0400, Frederick Grose wrote: > > > > Yes that would work, and wouldn't leave a hidden button taking up > > space on the tool bar. > > Ok, we'll work on a patch to do this. > > > > By the way, I don't see how one keeps a copy from the Journal to a new > > Journal item. One can copy to the clipboard and then keep a text file > > to the Journal from the primary Journal view (in the panel for the > > object icon - Sugar 0.88), and, in the extended Journal object > > view, one can copy files as text to attached devices--but how would > > one keep a copy of the running Activity? > > Ugh. We clearly need to put a lot more thought into Journal interaction: > > * lack of multiple selection makes certain tasks such as copying 10 > photos to a pendrive amazingly repetitive and slow. > > * lack of a size column in the list view makes it hard to identify > large items that could be deleted to free up some space. We should review this section of our design guidelines, http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Human_Interface_Guidelines/The_Laptop_Experience/The_Journal#The_Notion_of_.22Keeping.22 . The 'Incremental backups paragraph' may be mis-worded. The 'keep (a copy)' button instantiates a new copy of the Activity. The incremental backups and keep-hints are said to 'keep a copy', but rather, they update and persist the working copy from the Learner's point of view. Perhaps we should just label the button or option 'Copy' because that is both the result and the action (at least in English where it is both a noun and a verb). I imagine that with the 'Keep a copy' action option on the proposed, 'Stop' button panel, Sugar Learners might see that phrase, and again, panic about 'saving' their Activity. An action option labelled 'Copy' may instead suggest that a new instance would be created, rather than suggest that they need to 'keep' their Activity or 'lose' it. The proposed 'Copy' icon might be improved by hinting that a new instance of the current Activity is to go (copied) into the Journal, perhaps by placing a new-object star (*) above the arrow pointing to the Journal. (See attached example.) --Fred <>___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] [PATCH] Remove the keep button from the default activity toolbar
On Thu, 2010-04-22 at 23:35 -0400, Frederick Grose wrote: > Yes that would work, and wouldn't leave a hidden button taking up > space on the tool bar. Ok, we'll work on a patch to do this. > By the way, I don't see how one keeps a copy from the Journal to a new > Journal item. One can copy to the clipboard and then keep a text file > to the Journal from the primary Journal view (in the panel for the > object icon - Sugar 0.88), and, in the extended Journal object > view, one can copy files as text to attached devices--but how would > one keep a copy of the running Activity? Ugh. We clearly need to put a lot more thought into Journal interaction: * lack of multiple selection makes certain tasks such as copying 10 photos to a pendrive amazingly repetitive and slow. * lack of a size column in the list view makes it hard to identify large items that could be deleted to free up some space. -- // Bernie Innocenti - http://codewiz.org/ \X/ Sugar Labs - http://sugarlabs.org/ ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] [PATCH] Remove the keep button from the default activity toolbar
On Thu, Apr 22, 2010 at 8:46 PM, Bernie Innocenti wrote: > On Wed, 2010-04-21 at 20:34 -0400, Frederick Grose wrote: > > > Got it, sounds good, thanks. Here's the obvious patch. > > > > > > -0.5 > > > Please, let's move halfway so we don't break workflows already > > established. For example, someone has already developed lessons for > > that involve keeping Physics models at various stages of development. > > "Keeping a copy" from the > > Activity tool bar is a part of that. > > > > Could we instead hide the "Keep a copy" button so that it only appears > > on the pressing of the 'Alt key'. this should take away the > > temptation for the 'unsweetened' to become 'bitter'. It will take a > > while before old habits change and a new mental model of keeping ones > > work takes hold. > > How about folding "Keep a copy" inside the popup menu for the Stop > button? ... Yes that would work, and wouldn't leave a hidden button taking up space on the tool bar. By the way, I don't see how one keeps a copy from the Journal to a new Journal item. One can copy to the clipboard and then keep a text file to the Journal from the primary Journal view (in the panel for the object icon - Sugar 0.88), and, in the extended Journal object view, one can copy files as text to attached devices--but how would one keep a copy of the running Activity? Thanks for the consideration! --Fred ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] [PATCH] Remove the keep button from the default activity toolbar
On Wed, 2010-04-21 at 20:34 -0400, Frederick Grose wrote: > Got it, sounds good, thanks. Here's the obvious patch. > > > -0.5 > Please, let's move halfway so we don't break workflows already > established. For example, someone has already developed lessons for > that involve keeping Physics models at various stages of development. > "Keeping a copy" from the > Activity tool bar is a part of that. > > Could we instead hide the "Keep a copy" button so that it only appears > on the pressing of the 'Alt key'. this should take away the > temptation for the 'unsweetened' to become 'bitter'. It will take a > while before old habits change and a new mental model of keeping ones > work takes hold. How about folding "Keep a copy" inside the popup menu for the Stop button? If we take it away completely, I can already see the angry users telling me that now they have to stop and reopen activities every 10 minutes to ensure their data is safely stored on disk. -- // Bernie Innocenti - http://codewiz.org/ \X/ Sugar Labs - http://sugarlabs.org/ ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] [PATCH] Remove the keep button from the default activity toolbar
On Thu, Apr 22, 2010 at 08:32:05AM -0400, Benjamin M. Schwartz wrote: In English a comma may or may not be used before the final conjunction (and, or, nor) in a list of more than two elements. Interesting; thanks for the quote. CU Sascha -- http://sascha.silbe.org/ http://www.infra-silbe.de/ signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] [PATCH] Remove the keep button from the default activity toolbar
Sascha Silbe wrote: > On Wed, Apr 21, 2010 at 07:35:44PM -0400, Chris Ball wrote: > >> """The Activity toolbar with the Journal entry title, sharing, >> - Keep and Stop buttons >> + and Stop button > Nitpick: please remove the comma after sharing. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comma """ In English a comma may or may not be used before the final conjunction (and, or, nor) in a list of more than two elements. A comma used in such a position is called a serial comma or an Oxford or Harvard comma (after the Oxford University Press and Harvard University Press, both prominent advocates of this style). In some cases use or omission of such a comma may serve to avoid ambiguity: """ Don't complain about the comma. --Ben signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] [PATCH] Remove the keep button from the default activity toolbar
On Wed, Apr 21, 2010 at 07:35:44PM -0400, Chris Ball wrote: """The Activity toolbar with the Journal entry title, sharing, - Keep and Stop buttons + and Stop button Nitpick: please remove the comma after sharing. After this change: Reviewed-By: Sascha Silbe CU Sascha -- http://sascha.silbe.org/ http://www.infra-silbe.de/ signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
Re: [Sugar-devel] [PATCH] Remove the keep button from the default activity toolbar
On Wed, Apr 21, 2010 at 7:35 PM, Chris Ball wrote: > Hi, > > > No, sorry. The current prompt-on-quit is fine, as it only occurs > > when you stop a brand new activity instance. It basically asks > > "do you want me to keep track of this thing in your Journal," and > > from then on it will auto-save as usual. > > > > Since the Keep button is causing so much confusion, I was > > proposing to remove it for now (until we have more complete > > version support), but keep the prompt the first time a new > > instance is stopped. We can still skip the prompt if the instance > > is manually renamed, under the assumption that naming the item > > implies a desire to track it in the Journal. > > Got it, sounds good, thanks. Here's the obvious patch. -0.5 Please, let's move halfway so we don't break workflows already established. For example, someone has already developed lessons for that involve keeping Physics models at various stages of development. "Keeping a copy" from the Activity tool bar is a part of that. Could we instead hide the "Keep a copy" button so that it only appears on the pressing of the 'Alt key'. this should take away the temptation for the 'unsweetened' to become 'bitter'. It will take a while before old habits change and a new mental model of keeping ones work takes hold. --Fred ___ Sugar-devel mailing list Sugar-devel@lists.sugarlabs.org http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/sugar-devel
