Off list: High Noon (the movie!) and sundials

[John Pickard]

John,
 
Hmm, I think that I must disagree with your 
suggestion that Gary Cooper timed his walk out onto the street using a noon mark 
or similar solar device. 
 
Putting aside the rather bizarre notion of US 
history that is portrayed by Hollywood (or world history for that matter), I 
gleaned a bit of information during a wonderful 6 month sojourn in Tucson, 
Arizona about 6 years ago. My interest was in ranch fencing, and this spread 
over into history of the south west of the US. Being a great fan of The Duke, 
and other purveyors of mom and apple pie, I read a bit about the so-called 
"gun-fighter era". 
 
Seems that it occurred after the American Civil 
War, and was essentially over by about the 1890s. This was also the time of 
great expansion of both railways ( I refuse to use "railroads". After all, they 
were invented by the British, so the UK term has precedence) and telegraphs. 
Clocks would also have been widely available. I am pretty sure that both Gary 
Cooper and Grace Kelly keep looking at either a clock or a pocket watch. In any 
event, surely both the railway and the telegraph would require timepieces 
other than sundials? 
 
My final piece of evidence (tongue firmly in cheek) 
is that Frankie Lane's title song from High Noon has a couple of 
lines:
 
"look at that big hand move along / nearing high noon"
 
What else can you say?
 
How about: the six months in Tucson were wonderful, 
and if I could get a job, I'd be back there tomorrow. Great landscape and 
climate, friendly people, great cuisine, and only a couple of hours from Mexico. 
Pity that I didn't know about the sundial list when I was in 
Tucson.
 
Cheers, John
 
"Far better an approximate answer to the right question which may be 
difficult to frame,than an exact answer to the wrong question which is 
always easy to ask"John W Tukey, statistician

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  John Carmichael 
  To: John 
  Davis 
  Cc:  
  Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2001 5:59 
  AM
  Subject: Re: Sundial Slang
  
  I knew you'd write back John!
   
  Loved your comments.  "High Noon" is a very 
  common and still used _expression_ here in the American Southwest. (In lots 
  of old cowboy movies that's when they have the shootouts. They probably only 
  had sundial and noon marks back then). It's a favorite of mine, so 
  much so that I engraved my Flaundrau Planetarium heliochronometer 
  with a High Noon Mark. (again, more guilt feelings!) I'm sure it 
  indicated the time when the sun crosses the N/S meridian and is at its daily 
  highest point, not when it reaches zenith. And it certainly is not when a 
  clock says 12:00 pm. So you could use this term anywhere in earth, not just 
  tropic latitudes where the sun reaches zenith.
   
  Also, I forgot to mention "Beaded Figure-eights" 
  (Analemmas who's dates/declinations are marked).
   
  And by popular demand, everyone, especially Steve 
  Lelievre, Fred and Fer will pleased that I don't say "Singleton Dial" 
  anymore!
   
  John
   
  John L. Carmichael Jr.Sundial Sculptures925 E. Foothills 
  Dr.Tucson Arizona 85718USA
   
  Tel: 520-696-1709Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Website: 
  
  
- Original Message - 
From: 
John Davis 
To: John Carmichael ; sundial@rrz.uni-koeln.de 
Sent: Friday, August 17, 2001 11:36 
AM
Subject: Re: Sundial Slang

Hi John et al,
 
I couldn't let this pass without comment :-) 
!!
 
I'm not sure that I am in any position to "approve" 
the correct terms - the BSS Sundial Glossary is just a collection of the 
bits of information that I've pulled together from various sources, 
including much input from the participants of this list.  I have no 
problem with the use of slang terms, especially when they help those poor 
unfortunates that aren't sundial enthusiasts know what we're talking 
about.  It does need care, though, not to introduce or reinforce 
misapprehensions.  Most of John's terms seem to avoid this, though 
whether they are more easily understood than the "scientific" term is 
debatable.
 
One term which is common and not (yet) in the Glossary 
is "High noon".  Is this an americanism?  I have, of course, seen 
my cowboy movies, but am unclear where the term originates.  Is it 
that, with the relatively low latitudes in the south of America, the Sun can 
come close to directly overhead (altitude = 90 degrees) at noon?  If 
so, it reinforces the wrong view of much of the UK media that the Sun is at 
the "zenith" at noon.  Whilst many ordinary people think of "zenith" as 
the highest point of the arc, astronomically it is defined as the point 
which really is directly overhead (only expressed rather more 
formally!).
 

Another point to watch is the 
use of "due north" instead of celestial pole.  If you are at northerly 
latitudes, the difference be

Fw: Sundial Slang

[John Carmichael]

To: "Bill Thayer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, August 19, 2001 11:43 AM
Subject: Re: Sundial Slang


> Hi Bill:
>
> Yes, isn't "Horizon Pollution" a great term?  I first heard it used by a
> friend who is a landscaper/enviromentalist.  At the time he was objecting
to
> the planting of non-native trees in our area.  All of our desert trees are
> small, never getting over 20 ft. tall.  He absolutely hated Italian
Cypress
> (You know those very tall skinny trees). He said they polluted the horizon
and destroyed the natural skyline.
> And I thought what a great term to use in dialing!  (Who knows, this might
> be my little lasting contribution to dialing!)
>
> I looked at your wonderful website and it is huge!  I did a search for
> "Obelisk of Agustus" but was unable to locate the sentence where you've
> incorporated the phrase.
>
> Thanks for writing, I'm glad I could help
>
> John
>
> John L. Carmichael Jr.
> Sundial Sculptures
> 925 E. Foothills Dr.
> Tucson Arizona 85718
> USA
>
> Tel: 520-696-1709
> Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Website: 
> - Original Message -
> From: "Bill Thayer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "John Carmichael" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Friday, August 17, 2001 2:25 PM
> Subject: Re: Sundial Slang
>
>
> > As a technical translator, I appreciated your glossary of slang
> > (technically, jargon); and "horizon pollution", like many terms of
> > technical jargon, is particularly useful: on my Obelisk of Augustus
> > page as a non-diallist I'd been groping towards the concept and how
> > to express it succinctly. Guess where I've just used it.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > --
> >
> > Bill Thayer
> > LacusCurtius
> > http://www.ukans.edu/history/index/europe/ancient_rome/E/Roman
>