Re: Monumental Statistics?
Cool! John John L. Carmichael Jr. Sundial Sculptures 925 E. Foothills Dr. Tucson Arizona 85718 USA Tel: 520-696-1709 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Website: http://www.sundialsculptures.com - Original Message - From: Tony Moss [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Sundial Mail List sundial@rrz.uni-koeln.de Sent: Sunday, June 16, 2002 4:15 PM Subject: Re: Monumental Statistics? John Carmichael wrote What definition or combination of definitions should I use? What sundials have I missed that might be record-holder contenders for the largest sundial? How should I answer this difficult question that everybody's asking? Thanks When this topic was aired some years ago I recall suggesting that the size of a dial should be judged by the VOLUME of the smallest imaginary rectilinear box which would contain all its elements. Tony Moss - -
RE: Time Museum Auction
It may that Part 2 would have been on sundials; apparently it was never published. I don't recall seeing that many sundials at the Time Museum. At present, I am more interested in the plain sights of the large astronomical instruments with nontelescopic sights which were built by Tycho Brahe and Johannes Hevelius. The sights were remarkably good, with reproducibility as good as 10 arc seconds (Hevelius), although overall instrumental accuracy for stars was more like 20 to 60 arc seconds. The position of the sun was measured by centering the edges of a pinhole-projected solar image on four slits, in the event someone wishes to try the method on a sundial. Over this last year I have been studying about water clocks, starting with Part 3, and going on to a great many of the cited works. There is also some additional modern research on the subject, primarily concerning hydraulics. I published a brief list of these newer articles in the NAWCC Horological Science Chapter Newsletter and can send it to anyone interested. Best wishes, Gordon Gordon Uber [EMAIL PROTECTED] San Diego, California USA Webmaster: Clocks and Time: http://www.ubr.com/clocks -
Re: Monumental Statistics
What´s about this SD in Sweden: http://www.pajala.se/welcome/tourism/soltorg.shtml On the homepage you can read: The world's biggest sundial today is in the Torne Valley, north of the Arctic Circle. The Guinness Book of Records has put Pajala, northern Sweden, on the map, and its sundial - formed as a round square. The sundial in Pajala, 38.33 m. in diameter, holds the world record, according to the Guinness Book of Records. The previous record was held by Disney World in Orlando, Florida, with 37.18 m Don´t think in meters and feet, enjoy them. Best wishes Josef Pastor E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -
seminar
6-17-02Tony,Please send me a copy also.Thanks, Jose Luis
RE: Monumental Statistics?
On the North wall of the Close of Salisbury Cathedral, Wiltshire, England, is a groove with the word MERIDIES, which is apparently a noon mark acting in conjunction with the spire. The spire is just over 400 feet (122 m) high and the wall is nearly that far from its base. It was mentioned in BSS Bulletin 91.3 pp22-23 and also in Peter Ransom's A Dozen Dials. I hope to publish some more about it in the BSS Bulletin in the near(ish) future. Of course it's not as big as Mont St Michel (see http://maget.maget.free.fr/SiteMont/ for some details of that temporary dial) but it beats most other things - but wasn't there once a (now non-existent?) mountain dial with markers on the hillside somewhere? However the volume definition of size is a very good one for eliminating a noon mark! Andrew James N 51 04' W 01 18' -
Re: Monumental Statistics?
Hey, that's cheating! I don't think noon marks should count when we consider monumental sundial statistics since there is no dial face indicating multiple hours, dates, altitudes, or anything else except a noon mark. John John L. Carmichael Jr. Sundial Sculptures 925 E. Foothills Dr. Tucson Arizona 85718 USA Tel: 520-696-1709 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Website: http://www.sundialsculptures.com - Original Message - From: Andrew James [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: sundial@rrz.uni-koeln.de Sent: Monday, June 17, 2002 2:07 AM Subject: RE: Monumental Statistics? On the North wall of the Close of Salisbury Cathedral, Wiltshire, England, is a groove with the word MERIDIES, which is apparently a noon mark acting in conjunction with the spire. The spire is just over 400 feet (122 m) high and the wall is nearly that far from its base. It was mentioned in BSS Bulletin 91.3 pp22-23 and also in Peter Ransom's A Dozen Dials. I hope to publish some more about it in the BSS Bulletin in the near(ish) future. Of course it's not as big as Mont St Michel (see http://maget.maget.free.fr/SiteMont/ for some details of that temporary dial) but it beats most other things - but wasn't there once a (now non-existent?) mountain dial with markers on the hillside somewhere? However the volume definition of size is a very good one for eliminating a noon mark! Andrew James N 51 04' W 01 18' - -
Re: Monumental Statistics
It appears that they used face diameter (38.33m) as the criteria to support their claim. To compare it to the other sundials on our list, we need to convert this to area. This is 1153m sq. This puts it behind Jaipur's 1932m sq. but slightly ahead of Disney's 1039m sq. Kitt Peak, by this criteria is left in the dust at 685m sq. John John L. Carmichael Jr. Sundial Sculptures 925 E. Foothills Dr. Tucson Arizona 85718 USA Tel: 520-696-1709 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Website: http://www.sundialsculptures.com - Original Message - From: Josef Pastor [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: sundial@rrz.uni-koeln.de Sent: Monday, June 17, 2002 12:30 AM Subject: Re: Monumental Statistics What´s about this SD in Sweden: http://www.pajala.se/welcome/tourism/soltorg.shtml On the homepage you can read: The world's biggest sundial today is in the Torne Valley, north of the Arctic Circle. The Guinness Book of Records has put Pajala, northern Sweden, on the map, and its sundial - formed as a round square. The sundial in Pajala, 38.33 m. in diameter, holds the world record, according to the Guinness Book of Records. The previous record was held by Disney World in Orlando, Florida, with 37.18 m Don´t think in meters and feet, enjoy them. Best wishes Josef Pastor E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - -
Re: Monumental Statistics?
I also think we should disqualify sundials that no longer exist. (Agustus and Mont Saint Michel) John John L. Carmichael Jr.Sundial Sculptures925 E. Foothills Dr.Tucson Arizona 85718USA Tel: 520-696-1709Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Website: http://www.sundialsculptures.com - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: sundial@rrz.uni-koeln.de Sent: Sunday, June 16, 2002 5:50 PM Subject: Re: Monumental Statistics? 6-16-02In an article in Volume 2 Number 4 of The Compendium, I briefly discussed sundial size using the Jaipur, Disney and Augustus sundials. I compared them using isometric drawings that I made. On the basis of area occupied by each dial, I calculated the following:Augustus - 103000 sq. ft.Jaipur - 21000 sq. ft.Disney - 11300 sq. ft.The Guiness Book of Records, the last time I looked, listed the Disney Dial as the world's largest. When I questioned them about their basis, I received no answer!Hal Brandmaier
3D model and diagram
Fellow Shadow Watchers I first offered this material to The List about two months ago and was slightly surprised to receive only a handful of acknowledgement/requests. Judging from the current stream, which is still coming in, many of you did not see that initial announcement for some technical reason. To save multiple postings I will now close the offer on Wednesday instead of today, Monday, as originally stated. The diagram will come in PDF form and the small pics will be in JPEG format. A free PDF viewer (portable document format) is downloadable from the Adobe website for those who do not already have this. If, after receiving the pics, you find that you are one of a small minority cannot view my JPEGs (AOL users usually) Mac Oglesby has kindly offered to do a group re-posting in a readable form if you notify him of the problem (Thanks Mac) Best Wishes Tony Moss. -
Largest dial
A future candidate for the largest dial could well be the Chesterfield dial, www.solarpyramid.co.uk, subject of recent discussion herein. In spite of David Young's concerns as to the project's scientific credentials, which entirely echo my own, we must hope that all goes well- if they do seek help I can think of many out there who'd oblige, but they'd have to beat me to the front of the queue! John Moir London
RE: 3D model and diagram
Hi Tony! Please copy me also, we must not have gotten your original offer; and copy me on your thoughts on this reply system...not so loud there are others in the office who may hear! Fritz -
old scientific dial
Reply to : Frank Evans Greetings fellow dialists, During the recent tour of Austria by the British Sundial Society we were shown a dial on the wall of St. Stephen's Cathedral in Vienna which is thought to date from 1445. It is believed to be the first in the western world to have its gnomon in line with the earth's axis. The Austrian Sundial Society proudly use it in their logo. I'm sorry that I missed that. I spent six months working in Vienna in 1978-79, and love the cathedral, but I wasn't 'into' sundials in those days. Is there a picture of the dial ? Richard. E-mail from: Richard Mallett, 17-Jun-2002 -
Re: Monumental Statistics
If you sort by the surface, the total area filled by the hour lines of the sundial on the Place de la Concorde in Paris is 85 x 142 m, that is 12000 m sq. The Obelisk is 33 m high. Jean-Paul - Original Message - From: John Carmichael [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: sundial@rrz.uni-koeln.de Sent: Monday, June 17, 2002 4:29 PM Subject: Re: Monumental Statistics It appears that they used face diameter (38.33m) as the criteria to support their claim. To compare it to the other sundials on our list, we need to convert this to area. This is 1153m sq. This puts it behind Jaipur's 1932m sq. but slightly ahead of Disney's 1039m sq. Kitt Peak, by this criteria is left in the dust at 685m sq. John John L. Carmichael Jr. Sundial Sculptures 925 E. Foothills Dr. Tucson Arizona 85718 USA -
Re: Image Problem Solved?
A tilted card *above* the mark probably won't work, as I'm sure you've decided by now. You could use a tilted card, whose edge is in contact with the ground. Move it until the image of the Sun and shadow edge are split over the grounded edge, 50% on the card, 50% (elongated) on the pavement. At least you get the good imaging surface, and can tilt it to normal to the Sun/shadow line. John, I have been away for a few days. Wow, has the mail been thick! Congratulations on the acceptance of the proposal. You did a grand job! I too was sucked in on thinking that a circular hole held parallel to the ground would make a circular spot of light. It will, if the hole is large enough so that it is simply cutting off the light that does not pass through the hole (say, a one inch hole held 36 inches above the ground), but if the hole is small enough to make an image of the sun it will make a circular image only if the card is held perpendicular to the rays of light. Otherwise it will make an elliptical image. We all know that now. Now to the problem of marking the shadow. I like Dave Bell's solution, but before I saw his I developed a different one that you might try. I punched a 2 mm hole in each of two 3"x 5" cards. I then thumbtacked (drawing pinned, I believe in the UK) the cards to each end of a thick yard stick (3/4" square cross section) so I had a kind of "sighting" device. Don't try to look through it! Now I held the stick in the sunlight so that the card near the Sun made an image of the Sun on the lower card. If the lower end of the stick rests on the ground it is not hard to steady it and cause the image to surround the lower hole. The light passing through the second hole marks the position of the Sun's image on the ground. It is necessary to have a light colored surface on the ground on which to see this spot of light. Now one person can move this apparatus into the penumbra of the shadow, adju! st it until the circular image on the card is over the hole and divided in half by the image of the edge of the gnomon. A second person can then mark the spot of light coming through the "almost center" of the image, and at the appropriate time drive in the tack. Try it out if you have time. Bill Walton Plymouth, MA, USA 42 N 71 W
Re: Monumental Statistics
Does this sundial currently exist? John John L. Carmichael Jr. Sundial Sculptures 925 E. Foothills Dr. Tucson Arizona 85718 USA Tel: 520-696-1709 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Website: http://www.sundialsculptures.com - Original Message - From: Jean-Paul Cornec [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: sundial@rrz.uni-koeln.de Sent: Monday, June 17, 2002 1:54 PM Subject: Re: Monumental Statistics If you sort by the surface, the total area filled by the hour lines of the sundial on the Place de la Concorde in Paris is 85 x 142 m, that is 12000 m sq. The Obelisk is 33 m high. Jean-Paul - Original Message - From: John Carmichael [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: sundial@rrz.uni-koeln.de Sent: Monday, June 17, 2002 4:29 PM Subject: Re: Monumental Statistics It appears that they used face diameter (38.33m) as the criteria to support their claim. To compare it to the other sundials on our list, we need to convert this to area. This is 1153m sq. This puts it behind Jaipur's 1932m sq. but slightly ahead of Disney's 1039m sq. Kitt Peak, by this criteria is left in the dust at 685m sq. John John L. Carmichael Jr. Sundial Sculptures 925 E. Foothills Dr. Tucson Arizona 85718 USA - -
Re: Image Problem Solved?
Sounds like it might work. We'll try it on Thursday. Thanks John John L. Carmichael Jr.Sundial Sculptures925 E. Foothills Dr.Tucson Arizona 85718USA Tel: 520-696-1709Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Website: http://www.sundialsculptures.com - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: sundial@rrz.uni-koeln.de Sent: Monday, June 17, 2002 2:36 PM Subject: Re: Image Problem Solved? In a message dated 06/13/2002 11:58:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: A tilted card *above* the mark probably won't work, as I'm sure you've decided by now. You could use a tilted card, whose edge is in contact with the ground. Move it until the image of the Sun and shadow edge are split over the grounded edge, 50% on the card, 50% (elongated) on the pavement. At least you get the good imaging surface, and can tilt it to normal to the Sun/shadow line. John, I have been away for a few days. Wow, has the mail been thick! Congratulations on the acceptance of the proposal. You did a grand job! I too was sucked in on thinking that a circular hole held parallel to the ground would make a circular spot of light. It will, if the hole is large enough so that it is simply cutting off the light that does not pass through the hole (say, a one inch hole held 36 inches above the ground), but if the hole is small enough to make an image of the sun it will make a circular image only if the card is held perpendicular to the rays of light. Otherwise it will make an elliptical image. We all know that now. Now to the problem of marking the shadow. I like Dave Bell's solution, but before I saw his I developed a different one that you might try. I punched a 2 mm hole in each of two 3"x 5" cards. I then thumbtacked (drawing pinned, I believe in the UK) the cards to each end of a thick yard stick (3/4" square cross section) so I had a kind of "sighting" device. Don't try to look through it! Now I held the stick in the sunlight so that the card near the Sun made an image of the Sun on the lower card. If the lower end of the stick rests on the ground it is not hard to steady it and cause the image to surround the lower hole. The light passing through the second hole marks the position of the Sun's image on the ground. It is necessary to have a light colored surface on the ground on which to see this spot of light. Now one person can move this apparatus into the penumbra of the shadow, adju! st it until the circular image on the card is over the hole and divided in half by the image of the edge of the gnomon. A second person can then mark the spot of light coming through the "almost center" of the image, and at the appropriate time drive in the tack. Try it out if you have time. Bill Walton Plymouth, MA, USA 42 N 71 W
Re: Monumental Statistics
Yes it still does. In not a very good state, as lines and digits are not as striking as they were originally. Indeed lines were drawn on busy streets surrounding the Obelisk and most digits on pavement crowded with tourists. Jean-Paul - Original Message - From: John Carmichael [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: sundial@rrz.uni-koeln.de Sent: Monday, June 17, 2002 11:52 PM Subject: Re: Monumental Statistics Does this sundial currently exist? John John L. Carmichael Jr. Sundial Sculptures 925 E. Foothills Dr. Tucson Arizona 85718 USA Tel: 520-696-1709 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Website: http://www.sundialsculptures.com - Original Message - From: Jean-Paul Cornec [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: sundial@rrz.uni-koeln.de Sent: Monday, June 17, 2002 1:54 PM Subject: Re: Monumental Statistics If you sort by the surface, the total area filled by the hour lines of the sundial on the Place de la Concorde in Paris is 85 x 142 m, that is 12000 m sq. The Obelisk is 33 m high. Jean-Paul - Original Message - From: John Carmichael [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: sundial@rrz.uni-koeln.de Sent: Monday, June 17, 2002 4:29 PM Subject: Re: Monumental Statistics It appears that they used face diameter (38.33m) as the criteria to support their claim. To compare it to the other sundials on our list, we need to convert this to area. This is 1153m sq. This puts it behind Jaipur's 1932m sq. but slightly ahead of Disney's 1039m sq. Kitt Peak, by this criteria is left in the dust at 685m sq. John John L. Carmichael Jr. Sundial Sculptures 925 E. Foothills Dr. Tucson Arizona 85718 USA - - -
Re: Monumental Statistics?
John, You made the following two statements 1. I don't think noon marks should count when we consider monumental sundialstatistics since there is no dial face indicating multiple hours, dates,altitudes, or anything else except a noon mark. 2. I also think we should disqualify sundials that no longer exist. (Agustus and Mont Saint Michel) Take my answer not too serious, but I don't agree withthese statements. See my remarks below. 1. A noon mark is a sundial, no doubt about that. There are a number of beautiful meridians in churches and in fact they all are noon marks. I won't exclude them fromany sundialcompetition. 2. And what about the largest pancake? It's long eaten butyou have to bake a larger one to get a new record. A record holds, even if the subject is disappeared. On the other hand,parts of the dial of August still exist, 8 meters below streetlevel ! as Buchner wrote in his book. And the gnomon of Mont St. Michelstill ispresent.The cathedral, the island and the beach didn't disappear. In the former discussion I suggested the earth as largest sundial. As an astronaut on the moon it must have been a beautifulsundial to look at and it can tell you thetime at home. Best wishes, Fer. Fer J. de Vriesmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]http://www.iae.nl/users/ferdv/Eindhoven, Netherlandslat. 51:30 N long. 5:30 E - Original Message - From: "John Carmichael" [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: sundial@rrz.uni-koeln.de Sent: Monday, June 17, 2002 4:12 PM Subject: Re: Monumental Statistics?
Information on pinholes
Hello friends, Using the google.com search engine, I conducted a search for pinhole. There were numerous fascinating sites, including these two: http://www.photo.net/pinhole/pinhole http://neon.airtime.co.uk/pinhole/ Best wishes, Mac Oglesby -
Re: Monumental Statistics?
Hi John and dialists all, Well, people living in mountainous country often tell time by the shadows of the various prominences and ridges. We are talking thousands of feet at the least here. Even the moon's shadow moving across the earth tells some kind of time, and that is a far distance indeed. Perhaps if the question is restated in terms of dials that are totally constructed by human agency for the sole purpose of sundials we could come to a better answer. In this case we couldn't include the Kitt Peak Dial. In terms of the use of the shadows of fortuitous objects to tell solar time, I don't think we can name the largest! I don't believe we can go on the basis of the rate of movement of the shadow in linear terms at noon as a good measure of size, since there are projecting solar telescopes that have extreme rates of shadow movement, other multireflecting devices using non planar surfaces that also have very fast solar shadow movement. Some of these fast moving sundials use the reflected light as well, so we would have to include direct light and shadow movement as a measure. The shadow is, as I understand it, is kind of like a wet finger in the wind and tells us in combination with the gnomon and dial face the direction of the vast field of the sun's rays. As a result, perhaps the best measure would be the longest optical lever, but still some may be thousands of miles if we use the shadows of orbiting satellites to tell time. After all that, I believe I would go with the measure of the largest, calibrated, dial face area as the best way to compare the kind of dials we are dealing with. Does this make the contest easier? Edley [EMAIL PROTECTED] -
RE: An easy question
Hi bill I have finally put some picts and drawings together. I found the error that was causing the tracking problem. This is a dial that I hope to produce commercially. The site is just the bare bones I hope there are enough shots of the dial. I am surprised at the accuracy over the short period that I have tested it . Dave Scott -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, April 19, 2002 12:20 PM To: sundial@rrz.uni-koeln.de Subject: Re: An easy question David Scott, Could you refer us to a photo of this dial (or attach a small JPEG)? I am having a hard time visualizing it in terms of your question. Bill Gottesman Burlington, VT 44.4674N, 73.2027W - -
RE: An easy question
And that site is...? On Mon, 17 Jun 2002, david scott wrote: Hi bill I have finally put some picts and drawings together. I found the error that was causing the tracking problem. This is a dial that I hope to produce commercially. The site is just the bare bones I hope there are enough shots of the dial. I am surprised at the accuracy over the short period that I have tested it . Dave Scott -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, April 19, 2002 12:20 PM To: sundial@rrz.uni-koeln.de Subject: Re: An easy question David Scott, Could you refer us to a photo of this dial (or attach a small JPEG)? I am having a hard time visualizing it in terms of your question. Bill Gottesman Burlington, VT 44.4674N, 73.2027W - - -
Re: Monumental Statistics?
Hal Brandmaier
