Re:

[Michael Ossipoff]

Hi Mario—



.

Thanks for pointing that out—I didn’t know that “tempora” meant “seasons”
in Latin. I knew that “tempus” meant “time”, but I didn’t know about the
specific seasonal meaning.



.

In English, “temporal” just means “of or pertaining to time”, but you point
out that it used to mean “seasonal”



.

So then I now realize that “temporal hours” isn’t incorrect, but is just
different from what that word means in English.



.

Thanks again for clarifying that.

--

Dan—

.

I want to emphasize that I wasn’t criticizing any word-usage of yours. I
was just objecting to the word-usage in the text that you were quoting (a
usage that has justification that I didn’t know about).

-

Michael Ossipoff

20 M

1546 UTC
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ODP:

[Marek Szymocha]

What about ANAL EMMA version? 
Regards, Marek


Od: Willy Leenders
Wysłano: poniedziałek, 6 maja 2019 16:25
Do: Mario Arnaldi
DW: Sundial sundiallist; Michael Ossipoff
Temat: Re: 

ANALEMMA is a word from the Greek language.
It is composed of ANA and LEMMA.
This means "taken from above”.
In other words "top view" or "vertical projection”.
The ellipse of an analemmatic sundial is therefore the vertical projection of 
an equatorial sundial.

Willy Leenders
Flanders in Belgium



Op 6 mei 2019, om 15:47 heeft Mario Arnaldi via sundial  
het volgende geschreven:

Diese Nachricht wurde eingewickelt um DMARC-kompatibel zu sein. Die
eigentliche Nachricht steht dadurch in einem Anhang.

This message was wrapped to be DMARC compliant. The actual message
text is therefore in an attachment.
Van: "Mario Arnaldi" 
Onderwerp: Antw.: Temporal hours to modern hours
Datum: 6 mei 2019 om 15:47:33 CEST
Aan: "Michael Ossipoff" , 
Kopie: "lista internazionale" 

Dear Michael, I don’t know how it work the English language with the latin 
because we read Analemma in English and in Latin but the meaning is a lot 
different in bot languages. In Latin is the geometrical projection that let you 
make sundials (see Vitruvius and Ptolemy), for English is the 8 shaped figure 
of the equation of time. And so Temporal hours too. In old Italian latin books 
the seasonal hours take the name of “temporal” fron the latin “tempora” 
(plural) that are the seasons (the four “tempora”).
Hope I made clear the mystery. 
 
Mario
 
 
From: Michael Ossipoff 
Sent: Thursday, May 02, 2019 11:44 PM
To: 
Cc: 
Subject: Re: Temporal hours to modern hours
 
That sounds like just a conversion between two ways of naming the equal-hours.  
 ...converting between the.modern 12-hour naming, and a numbering that calls 
the hour from 6 a.m. to 7 a.m. the 1st hour. It doesn't take into account the 
different lengths of the hours, which depend on the varying length of the day, 
because the sunrise-sunset day is divided into 12 equal parts (as is the 
sunset-sunrise night).
 
I don't agree with the term "temporal hours".  The first book that I found that 
mentioned seasonal-hours called them "temporary hours".  That name makes sense, 
because the length of an hour is temporary instead of constant, because it 
varies with the season.
 
"Temporal hours" doesn't make sense, because all hours are temporal. "Temporal" 
just means "of, about or pertaining to time".
 
Maybe a good term would be "seasonal-hours", because their length varies 
seasonally.
 
One way to get temporary-hours is from Babylonian and co-Italian hours.  Divide 
the Babylonian hour from the sum of the Babylonian hour and the co-Italian hour.
 
Michael Ossipoff
19 Th
 
(Thursday of the 19th week of the calendar-year that started with the Monday 
that started closest to the South-Solstice.
 
...or closest to the approximation to the South-Solstice, based on the 
assumption that a South-Solstice occurs exactly every 365.2422 days, starting 
from the actual South-Solstice of 2017).
 
(The South-Sostice of 2017 occurred at December 21.686    ...where the time of 
day is expressed as a fraction of the day from midnight of that day.)
 
...
 
 
On Thu, May 2, 2019 at 5:05 PM Dan-George Uza  wrote:
Hello,
 
In a note quoted below from the "Dictionary of Greek and Roman Antiquities, 
John Murray, London, 1875" I found the following advice to convert temporal 
hours to modern hours. 
 
"A very quick and easy rule of thumb, when we read "the third hour, the sixth 
hour", etc., is to add 3, 6, etc. to 5:00 A.M.: The first hour, for example, 
runs from roughly 6 to roughly 7 A.M.; and the ninth hour from roughly 2 to 
roughly 3 P.M."

Source: 
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/secondary/SMIGRA*/Hora.html
 
Of course back then there was no summer time either... 
 
But is there a closer aproximation for this, perhaps using a simple 
mathematical formula? Are there apps that can convert temporal hours directly 
to modern equivalents, perhaps as a spreadsheet? 
 
Dan Uza
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Re:

[Willy Leenders]

ANALEMMA is a word from the Greek language.
It is composed of ANA and LEMMA.
This means "taken from above”.
In other words "top view" or "vertical projection”.
The ellipse of an analemmatic sundial is therefore the vertical projection of 
an equatorial sundial.

Willy Leenders
Flanders in Belgium


> Op 6 mei 2019, om 15:47 heeft Mario Arnaldi via sundial 
>  het volgende geschreven:
> 
> Diese Nachricht wurde eingewickelt um DMARC-kompatibel zu sein. Die
> eigentliche Nachricht steht dadurch in einem Anhang.
> 
> This message was wrapped to be DMARC compliant. The actual message
> text is therefore in an attachment.
> Van: "Mario Arnaldi" 
> Onderwerp: Antw.: Temporal hours to modern hours
> Datum: 6 mei 2019 om 15:47:33 CEST
> Aan: "Michael Ossipoff" , 
> Kopie: "lista internazionale" 
> 
> 
> Dear Michael, I don’t know how it work the English language with the latin 
> because we read Analemma in English and in Latin but the meaning is a lot 
> different in bot languages. In Latin is the geometrical projection that let 
> you make sundials (see Vitruvius and Ptolemy), for English is the 8 shaped 
> figure of the equation of time. And so Temporal hours too. In old Italian 
> latin books the seasonal hours take the name of “temporal” fron the latin 
> “tempora” (plural) that are the seasons (the four “tempora”).
> Hope I made clear the mystery. 
>  
> Mario
>  
>  
> From: Michael Ossipoff 
> Sent: Thursday, May 02, 2019 11:44 PM
> To:
> Cc:
> Subject: Re: Temporal hours to modern hours
>  
> That sounds like just a conversion between two ways of naming the 
> equal-hours.   ...converting between the.modern 12-hour naming, and a 
> numbering that calls the hour from 6 a.m. to 7 a.m. the 1st hour. It doesn't 
> take into account the different lengths of the hours, which depend on the 
> varying length of the day, because the sunrise-sunset day is divided into 12 
> equal parts (as is the sunset-sunrise night).
>  
> I don't agree with the term "temporal hours".  The first book that I found 
> that mentioned seasonal-hours called them "temporary hours".  That name makes 
> sense, because the length of an hour is temporary instead of constant, 
> because it varies with the season.
>  
> "Temporal hours" doesn't make sense, because all hours are temporal. 
> "Temporal" just means "of, about or pertaining to time".
>  
> Maybe a good term would be "seasonal-hours", because their length varies 
> seasonally.
>  
> One way to get temporary-hours is from Babylonian and co-Italian hours.  
> Divide the Babylonian hour from the sum of the Babylonian hour and the 
> co-Italian hour.
>  
> Michael Ossipoff
> 19 Th
>  
> (Thursday of the 19th week of the calendar-year that started with the Monday 
> that started closest to the South-Solstice.
>  
> ...or closest to the approximation to the South-Solstice, based on the 
> assumption that a South-Solstice occurs exactly every 365.2422 days, starting 
> from the actual South-Solstice of 2017).
>  
> (The South-Sostice of 2017 occurred at December 21.686...where the time 
> of day is expressed as a fraction of the day from midnight of that day.)
>  
> ...
>  
>  
> On Thu, May 2, 2019 at 5:05 PM Dan-George Uza  > wrote:
> Hello,
>  
> In a note quoted below from the "Dictionary of Greek and Roman Antiquities, 
> John Murray, London, 1875" I found the following advice to convert temporal 
> hours to modern hours.
>  
> "A very quick and easy rule of thumb, when we read "the third hour, the sixth 
> hour", etc., is to add 3, 6, etc. to 5:00 A.M.: The first hour, for example, 
> runs from roughly 6 to roughly 7 A.M.; and the ninth hour from roughly 2 to 
> roughly 3 P.M."
> 
> Source: 
> http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/secondary/SMIGRA*/Hora.html 
> 
>  
> Of course back then there was no summer time either... 
>  
> But is there a closer aproximation for this, perhaps using a simple 
> mathematical formula? Are there apps that can convert temporal hours directly 
> to modern equivalents, perhaps as a spreadsheet?
>  
> Dan Uza
> ---
> https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial 
> 
> 
> 
> ---
> https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
> 
> 
>  
> 
> Mail priva di virus. www.avast.com 
> 
>  
> 
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> https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
> 



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[no subject]

[Mario Arnaldi via sundial]

Diese Nachricht wurde eingewickelt um DMARC-kompatibel zu sein. Die
eigentliche Nachricht steht dadurch in einem Anhang.

This message was wrapped to be DMARC compliant. The actual message
text is therefore in an attachment.--- Begin Message ---
Dear Michael, I don’t know how it work the English language with the latin 
because we read Analemma in English and in Latin but the meaning is a lot 
different in bot languages. In Latin is the geometrical projection that let you 
make sundials (see Vitruvius and Ptolemy), for English is the 8 shaped figure 
of the equation of time. And so Temporal hours too. In old Italian latin books 
the seasonal hours take the name of “temporal” fron the latin “tempora” 
(plural) that are the seasons (the four “tempora”).
Hope I made clear the mystery.

Mario


From: Michael Ossipoff
Sent: Thursday, May 02, 2019 11:44 PM
To:
Cc:
Subject: Re: Temporal hours to modern hours

That sounds like just a conversion between two ways of naming the equal-hours.  
 ...converting between the.modern 12-hour naming, and a numbering that calls 
the hour from 6 a.m. to 7 a.m. the 1st hour. It doesn't take into account the 
different lengths of the hours, which depend on the varying length of the day, 
because the sunrise-sunset day is divided into 12 equal parts (as is the 
sunset-sunrise night).

I don't agree with the term "temporal hours".  The first book that I found that 
mentioned seasonal-hours called them "temporary hours".  That name makes sense, 
because the length of an hour is temporary instead of constant, because it 
varies with the season.

"Temporal hours" doesn't make sense, because all hours are temporal. "Temporal" 
just means "of, about or pertaining to time".

Maybe a good term would be "seasonal-hours", because their length varies 
seasonally.

One way to get temporary-hours is from Babylonian and co-Italian hours.  Divide 
the Babylonian hour from the sum of the Babylonian hour and the co-Italian hour.


Michael Ossipoff
19 Th

(Thursday of the 19th week of the calendar-year that started with the Monday 
that started closest to the South-Solstice.

...or closest to the approximation to the South-Solstice, based on the 
assumption that a South-Solstice occurs exactly every 365.2422 days, starting 
from the actual South-Solstice of 2017).

(The South-Sostice of 2017 occurred at December 21.686...where the time of 
day is expressed as a fraction of the day from midnight of that day.)


...



On Thu, May 2, 2019 at 5:05 PM Dan-George Uza  wrote:

  Hello,

  In a note quoted below from the "Dictionary of Greek and Roman Antiquities, 
John Murray, London, 1875" I found the following advice to convert temporal 
hours to modern hours.

  "A very quick and easy rule of thumb, when we read "the third hour, the sixth 
hour", etc., is to add 3, 6, etc. to 5:00 A.M.: The first hour, for example, 
runs from roughly 6 to roughly 7 A.M.; and the ninth hour from roughly 2 to 
roughly 3 P.M."



  Source: 
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/secondary/SMIGRA*/Hora.html

  Of course back then there was no summer time either...


  But is there a closer aproximation for this, perhaps using a simple 
mathematical formula? Are there apps that can convert temporal hours directly 
to modern equivalents, perhaps as a spreadsheet?

  Dan Uza
  ---
  https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial





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