Re: Inquiry - Part 1
Hi Steve, Any chance of getting a copy of or where to get it. I found a 1737 publication /Regle artificielle du temps /by Henry Sully, an English clockmaker in Paris and clockmaker to the Duc D'Orleans, which has fairly extensive instructions on how to regulate clocks using either a sundial or by observing transits of stars Would be interesting to see how they did it. Regards, Roderick Wall. - Reply message - From: "Steve Lelievre" <steve.lelievre.can...@gmail.com> To: "Frank King" <f...@cl.cam.ac.uk> Cc: "sundial@uni-koeln.de" <sundial@uni-koeln.de> Subject: Inquiry - Part 1 Date: Fri, Apr 28, 2017 1:39 AM Dear Frank, You're right - the timeline casts doubt on the premise of the enquiry. Well spotted! For anyone who's interested, here's a snippet from/Enclopaedia Britannica/ (7th ed.) "The first [Equation Clock] was made about the year 1693 by Mr Joseph Williamson, an English artist then working for Mr Daniel Quare watchmaker in London, who sold it to go to Charles II King of Spain about the year 1699. It went 400 days with one winding and had two fixed and two movable circles for the hands to mark the time on : the former giving the hours and minutes of mean time; and the latter, which were concentric with the former, apparent time. [...] Father Alexandre, a Benedictine, had laid a project of this sort before the Academy of Sciences in 1698 which is mentioned in their Memoirs for 1725 but nothing of the kind seems to have been practised in France till a clock, the equation work of which scarcely differed from Williamson's, was made by Lebon in 1717. This was soon after followed by another by Leroy." I found a 1737 publication /Regle artificielle du temps /by Henry Sully, an English clockmaker in Paris and clockmaker to the Duc D'Orleans, which has fairly extensive instructions on how to regulate clocks using either a sundial or by observing transits of stars, and how to convert a mean time reading to solar time by use of Equation of Time tables. I didn't notice any mention of equation clocks when I looked through Sully's treatise, so I assume they remained rather rare even 20 years after Le Bon and Le Roy had introduced them. Thanks to everyone who has responded to my enquiries. Steve On 2017-04-26 5:44 AM, Frank King wrote: > Dear Steve, > > I have read the replies to your enquiry and I > am not yet convinced by the responses to either > Part 1 or Part 2! > > I'll restrict myself to Part 1, where it is > asserted... > > ...that Louis XIV issued some kind of edict > that all clocks manufactured in France were > to be Equation Clocks (that is, clocks that > showed solar time through a mechanical > Equation of Time 'reversal' adjustment). > > One point of note is that Louis XIV reigned > from 1643 to 1715 so this edict must have been > sometime in those 72 years. > > Roderick Wall's reference... > > https://books.google.com.au/books?id=d1oUQAAJ=PA462=PA462=all+clo > cks+manufactured+in+France+were+to+be+Equation+Clocks=bl=ih4yWalJ9E& > sig=6u-sTxpfyTqZNPxRjfbAn7Q_ECk=en=X=0ahUKEwjW9oruqrbTAhVEGJQKHU-NDrs > Q6AEIIzAD#v=onepage=all%20clocks%20manufactured%20in%20France%20were%20to%20b > e%20Equation%20Clocks=false > > says on page 462... > > Equation clocks were first made in France, > about the year 1717, by Le Bon and Le Roy. > > It seems unlikely that Louis XIV could have > insisted on something that didn't exist in > his time. > > As king, Louis XIV no doubt had up-market > clocks in his palaces and he could simply > have instructed his clock-keepers to set > the clocks using a convenient sundial. > > The solar day typically differs from 24 modern > hours by a small fraction of a minute and it > is unlikely that the clocks early in his reign > kept time to anything like that precision. > Frequent setting to sundial time would have > been required. > > When he upgraded to pendulum clocks he may > have noticed that his clock-keepers had > changed their procedures... > > I think the first EoT tables used for > "correcting" clocks were published by > Huygens in 1665 and better tables were > published by Flamsteed about 7 years > later. > > Enthusiastic clock-keepers may have used > these tables and the king may not have > approved. The only edict that he need > have issued would have been of the form: > >"Do not use the equation of time when > setting the clocks." > > I know how to dig out ancient English Acts > of Parliament but I do not know how to find > old French edicts. > > Please can someone nail down this edict? > > Until I can read this edict in 17th century > French, I shall deem this to be another > example of a much-repeated falsehood > gaining widespread acceptance. > > Now to ponder part 2! > > Frank > > Frank H. King > Cambridge, U.K. > >--- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
Re: Inquiry - Part 1
Dear Frank, You're right - the timeline casts doubt on the premise of the enquiry. Well spotted! For anyone who's interested, here's a snippet from/Enclopaedia Britannica/ (7th ed.) "The first [Equation Clock] was made about the year 1693 by Mr Joseph Williamson, an English artist then working for Mr Daniel Quare watchmaker in London, who sold it to go to Charles II King of Spain about the year 1699. It went 400 days with one winding and had two fixed and two movable circles for the hands to mark the time on : the former giving the hours and minutes of mean time; and the latter, which were concentric with the former, apparent time. [...] Father Alexandre, a Benedictine, had laid a project of this sort before the Academy of Sciences in 1698 which is mentioned in their Memoirs for 1725 but nothing of the kind seems to have been practised in France till a clock, the equation work of which scarcely differed from Williamson's, was made by Lebon in 1717. This was soon after followed by another by Leroy." I found a 1737 publication /Regle artificielle du temps /by Henry Sully, an English clockmaker in Paris and clockmaker to the Duc D'Orleans, which has fairly extensive instructions on how to regulate clocks using either a sundial or by observing transits of stars, and how to convert a mean time reading to solar time by use of Equation of Time tables. I didn't notice any mention of equation clocks when I looked through Sully's treatise, so I assume they remained rather rare even 20 years after Le Bon and Le Roy had introduced them. Thanks to everyone who has responded to my enquiries. Steve On 2017-04-26 5:44 AM, Frank King wrote: Dear Steve, I have read the replies to your enquiry and I am not yet convinced by the responses to either Part 1 or Part 2! I'll restrict myself to Part 1, where it is asserted... ...that Louis XIV issued some kind of edict that all clocks manufactured in France were to be Equation Clocks (that is, clocks that showed solar time through a mechanical Equation of Time 'reversal' adjustment). One point of note is that Louis XIV reigned from 1643 to 1715 so this edict must have been sometime in those 72 years. Roderick Wall's reference... https://books.google.com.au/books?id=d1oUQAAJ=PA462=PA462=all+clo cks+manufactured+in+France+were+to+be+Equation+Clocks=bl=ih4yWalJ9E& sig=6u-sTxpfyTqZNPxRjfbAn7Q_ECk=en=X=0ahUKEwjW9oruqrbTAhVEGJQKHU-NDrs Q6AEIIzAD#v=onepage=all%20clocks%20manufactured%20in%20France%20were%20to%20b e%20Equation%20Clocks=false says on page 462... Equation clocks were first made in France, about the year 1717, by Le Bon and Le Roy. It seems unlikely that Louis XIV could have insisted on something that didn't exist in his time. As king, Louis XIV no doubt had up-market clocks in his palaces and he could simply have instructed his clock-keepers to set the clocks using a convenient sundial. The solar day typically differs from 24 modern hours by a small fraction of a minute and it is unlikely that the clocks early in his reign kept time to anything like that precision. Frequent setting to sundial time would have been required. When he upgraded to pendulum clocks he may have noticed that his clock-keepers had changed their procedures... I think the first EoT tables used for "correcting" clocks were published by Huygens in 1665 and better tables were published by Flamsteed about 7 years later. Enthusiastic clock-keepers may have used these tables and the king may not have approved. The only edict that he need have issued would have been of the form: "Do not use the equation of time when setting the clocks." I know how to dig out ancient English Acts of Parliament but I do not know how to find old French edicts. Please can someone nail down this edict? Until I can read this edict in 17th century French, I shall deem this to be another example of a much-repeated falsehood gaining widespread acceptance. Now to ponder part 2! Frank Frank H. King Cambridge, U.K. --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
Re: Inquiry - Part 1
Dear Steve, I have read the replies to your enquiry and I am not yet convinced by the responses to either Part 1 or Part 2! I'll restrict myself to Part 1, where it is asserted... ...that Louis XIV issued some kind of edict that all clocks manufactured in France were to be Equation Clocks (that is, clocks that showed solar time through a mechanical Equation of Time 'reversal' adjustment). One point of note is that Louis XIV reigned from 1643 to 1715 so this edict must have been sometime in those 72 years. Roderick Wall's reference... https://books.google.com.au/books?id=d1oUQAAJ=PA462=PA462=all+clo cks+manufactured+in+France+were+to+be+Equation+Clocks=bl=ih4yWalJ9E& sig=6u-sTxpfyTqZNPxRjfbAn7Q_ECk=en=X=0ahUKEwjW9oruqrbTAhVEGJQKHU-NDrs Q6AEIIzAD#v=onepage=all%20clocks%20manufactured%20in%20France%20were%20to%20b e%20Equation%20Clocks=false says on page 462... Equation clocks were first made in France, about the year 1717, by Le Bon and Le Roy. It seems unlikely that Louis XIV could have insisted on something that didn't exist in his time. As king, Louis XIV no doubt had up-market clocks in his palaces and he could simply have instructed his clock-keepers to set the clocks using a convenient sundial. The solar day typically differs from 24 modern hours by a small fraction of a minute and it is unlikely that the clocks early in his reign kept time to anything like that precision. Frequent setting to sundial time would have been required. When he upgraded to pendulum clocks he may have noticed that his clock-keepers had changed their procedures... I think the first EoT tables used for "correcting" clocks were published by Huygens in 1665 and better tables were published by Flamsteed about 7 years later. Enthusiastic clock-keepers may have used these tables and the king may not have approved. The only edict that he need have issued would have been of the form: "Do not use the equation of time when setting the clocks." I know how to dig out ancient English Acts of Parliament but I do not know how to find old French edicts. Please can someone nail down this edict? Until I can read this edict in 17th century French, I shall deem this to be another example of a much-repeated falsehood gaining widespread acceptance. Now to ponder part 2! Frank Frank H. King Cambridge, U.K. --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
