Re: Interesting sundial in Japan
Sorry for the late posting, but we were off-line for a week. I agree with Gianni: this seems to be a correct and interesting design. Just a guess: the dots may be led's that show the time also at night. And as Tokushima is less than 0.5° west of the Japanese time zone meridian, this might be civil time (except EoT correction). Best regards, Frans Maes Gianni Ferrari wrote: > As others have already written it is a vertical sundial, facing South, > with polar style, with its center in the point A of the attached figure. > > Since the style continues beyond the disk, the part BC of it can work > as a polar style of a sundial facing North, with center in B, drawn on > the hidden face of the disk. > > Even if the style BC is very short, being the northern face > illuminated only in the extreme hours of the day, the shadows would be > long enough to reach the edge of the disk. > > The northern side of the disk has been being illuminated from 5:30 to > 8:00 (around) and from 16:00 to 18:30 > > The lines of the hours on the northern face would be those drawn on the > southern face for the same hours (see the Roger Bailey’s drawing) > > > > Does someone know if the hours are written also on the northern face of > this sundial? > > > > Best Regards > Gianni Ferrari > > > > > > > > > > --- > https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial > --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
Re: Interesting sundial in Japan
Hi, 2009/4/30 Gianni Ferrari gfme...@gmail.com > > Does someone know if the hours are written also on the northern face of > this sundial? > > I do'nt know about that but maybe you can get more clues from the picture in the link http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Tokushima_prefectural_library03s3872.jpg Note that according to the metadata of the picture it was taken 14:09, 28 October 2007 Best Regards Aimo Niemi http://pc-calculator.110mb.com/gnomon/ --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
Re: Interesting sundial in Japan
As others have already written it is a vertical sundial, facing South, with polar style, with its center in the point A of the attached figure. Since the style continues beyond the disk, the part BC of it can work as a polar style of a sundial facing North, with center in B, drawn on the hidden face of the disk. Even if the style BC is very short, being the northern face illuminated only in the extreme hours of the day, the shadows would be long enough to reach the edge of the disk. The northern side of the disk has been being illuminated from 5:30 to 8:00 (around) and from 16:00 to 18:30 The lines of the hours on the northern face would be those drawn on the southern face for the same hours (see the Roger Bailey’s drawing) Does someone know if the hours are written also on the northern face of this sundial? Best Regards Gianni Ferrari <>--- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
Re: Interesting sundial in Japan
Dear Roger, Thank you for creating this diagram. I'm sure this confirms that the hour lines on the bottom half of the ring are correct. The upper half of the ring seems to have equally-spaced lines. To my mind this spoils the symmetry, but it does not interfere with the functionality of the sundial as the upper half is not used. I agree with Fred that it's a pity the dial surfaces seem to be too reflective to show shadows clearly. Perhaps the dots are not - those between 12:00 and 12:30 seem dark. But so do many of the others, pretty much at random as far as I can see. I am a little surprised that the hour lines are not continued on the inner cylindrical surface, as the shadows there would surely be stronger than on the south-facing ring. Regards Chris - Original Message - From: "Roger Bailey" To: "John Foad" ; ; Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 5:26 PM Subject: Re: Interesting sundial in Japan In questions like this, I use the engineering philosophy. "Don't speculate. Calculate". Attached is a quick drawing of the proper hour lines for a vertical dial for latitude 34º. To me this looks like the hour lines on the vertical ring. Assuming the gnomon is polar and intersects the plane of the dial at the 6 o'clock line, this looks to me to be a gnomonically correct sundial. The top half of the ring is artistic rather than useful but the bottom half looks like a correct vertical sundial with the hour displayed on a ring. Rotate an equatorial ring on the 6 o'clock line to make it vertical and the hour angles on the ring change as shown in the drawing and on the sculpture. In this case I agree with John's analysis. Roger Bailey Walking Shadow Designs -- From: "John Foad" Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 7:01 AM To: ; Subject: Re: Interesting sundial in Japan > > Hi Fred, > > If you print a copy of the picture, you can see that the style does at > least > pass through the line 6 - 18 and 12 - 24, so that is OK. I can't check > the > angles from the photo, but Tokushima is about 34 North, and the gnomon > angle > could be that (to the horizontal). As a fairly low-latitude dial (by UK > standards anyway!) the range of hour angles will not be as wide as I am > used > to, but they do look to be narrower at noon and wider at dusk, as they > should. I agree the designer may have had more interest in creating a fun > sculpture than primarily a dial, but he could nevertheless have got the > gnomonics right. > > Regards, > > John > - Original Message - > From: "Fred Sawyer" > To: "Sundial List" > Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 2:28 PM > Subject: Interesting sundial in Japan > > > Perhaps I'm missing something, but it seems to me that this dial is > getting more attention than it deserves. It looks to me to be one of > those very expensive 'sculptures' made by an artist who really does > not understand how a dial works. This dial is not made right - it > will not indicate the correct time - the relationship between the > plane of hour lines and the gnomon is all wrong. The markings don't > appear to me to be braille-like. They are simply 3 pips on the hour > and 2 pips every 10 minutes. The fact that some of the pips aren't > visible is probably just a trick of lighting in this particular photo. > > As I said - unless I've missed something here - this is a 'dial' I > would pass by without paying it any heed. > > Fred > > > On Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 12:29 PM, J. Tallman > wrote: >> Hello All, >> >> Here is a dial in Japan that I thought some of you may find interesting: >> >> http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Sundial_bunkanomori_tokushima.jpg >> >> I have seen it a couple times in the past month while casually browsing >> for >> sundial pictures, but I have never been able to find a good description >> for >> it. Does anyone know about this dial? I would be interested in what some >> of >> you think is really going on here, since this is a pretty unique >> configuration. >> >> >> Best, >> >> Jim Tallman >> www.artisanindustrials.com >> jtall...@artisanindustrials.com >> >> --- >> https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial >> >> >> > > --- > https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial > > > > > --- > https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 8.5.287 / Virus Database: 270.12.6/2084 - Release Date: 04/28/09 > 06:15:00 > > --- > https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial > > --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
Re: Interesting sundial in Japan
In questions like this, I use the engineering philosophy. "Don't speculate. Calculate". Attached is a quick drawing of the proper hour lines for a vertical dial for latitude 34º. To me this looks like the hour lines on the vertical ring. Assuming the gnomon is polar and intersects the plane of the dial at the 6 o'clock line, this looks to me to be a gnomonically correct sundial. The top half of the ring is artistic rather than useful but the bottom half looks like a correct vertical sundial with the hour displayed on a ring. Rotate an equatorial ring on the 6 o'clock line to make it vertical and the hour angles on the ring change as shown in the drawing and on the sculpture. In this case I agree with John's analysis. Roger Bailey Walking Shadow Designs -- From: "John Foad" Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 7:01 AM To: ; Subject: Re: Interesting sundial in Japan Hi Fred, If you print a copy of the picture, you can see that the style does at least pass through the line 6 - 18 and 12 - 24, so that is OK. I can't check the angles from the photo, but Tokushima is about 34 North, and the gnomon angle could be that (to the horizontal). As a fairly low-latitude dial (by UK standards anyway!) the range of hour angles will not be as wide as I am used to, but they do look to be narrower at noon and wider at dusk, as they should. I agree the designer may have had more interest in creating a fun sculpture than primarily a dial, but he could nevertheless have got the gnomonics right. Regards, John - Original Message - From: "Fred Sawyer" To: "Sundial List" Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 2:28 PM Subject: Interesting sundial in Japan Perhaps I'm missing something, but it seems to me that this dial is getting more attention than it deserves. It looks to me to be one of those very expensive 'sculptures' made by an artist who really does not understand how a dial works. This dial is not made right - it will not indicate the correct time - the relationship between the plane of hour lines and the gnomon is all wrong. The markings don't appear to me to be braille-like. They are simply 3 pips on the hour and 2 pips every 10 minutes. The fact that some of the pips aren't visible is probably just a trick of lighting in this particular photo. As I said - unless I've missed something here - this is a 'dial' I would pass by without paying it any heed. Fred On Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 12:29 PM, J. Tallman wrote: Hello All, Here is a dial in Japan that I thought some of you may find interesting: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Sundial_bunkanomori_tokushima.jpg I have seen it a couple times in the past month while casually browsing for sundial pictures, but I have never been able to find a good description for it. Does anyone know about this dial? I would be interested in what some of you think is really going on here, since this is a pretty unique configuration. Best, Jim Tallman www.artisanindustrials.com jtall...@artisanindustrials.com --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.287 / Virus Database: 270.12.6/2084 - Release Date: 04/28/09 06:15:00 L34V.pdf Description: Adobe PDF document --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
Re: Interesting sundial in Japan
Hi Fred, If you print a copy of the picture, you can see that the style does at least pass through the line 6 - 18 and 12 - 24, so that is OK. I can't check the angles from the photo, but Tokushima is about 34 North, and the gnomon angle could be that (to the horizontal). As a fairly low-latitude dial (by UK standards anyway!) the range of hour angles will not be as wide as I am used to, but they do look to be narrower at noon and wider at dusk, as they should. I agree the designer may have had more interest in creating a fun sculpture than primarily a dial, but he could nevertheless have got the gnomonics right. Regards, John - Original Message - From: "Fred Sawyer" To: "Sundial List" Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 2:28 PM Subject: Interesting sundial in Japan Perhaps I'm missing something, but it seems to me that this dial is getting more attention than it deserves. It looks to me to be one of those very expensive 'sculptures' made by an artist who really does not understand how a dial works. This dial is not made right - it will not indicate the correct time - the relationship between the plane of hour lines and the gnomon is all wrong. The markings don't appear to me to be braille-like. They are simply 3 pips on the hour and 2 pips every 10 minutes. The fact that some of the pips aren't visible is probably just a trick of lighting in this particular photo. As I said - unless I've missed something here - this is a 'dial' I would pass by without paying it any heed. Fred On Tue, Apr 28, 2009 at 12:29 PM, J. Tallman wrote: > Hello All, > > Here is a dial in Japan that I thought some of you may find interesting: > > http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Sundial_bunkanomori_tokushima.jpg > > I have seen it a couple times in the past month while casually browsing > for > sundial pictures, but I have never been able to find a good description > for > it. Does anyone know about this dial? I would be interested in what some > of > you think is really going on here, since this is a pretty unique > configuration. > > > Best, > > Jim Tallman > www.artisanindustrials.com > jtall...@artisanindustrials.com > > --- > https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial > > > --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
RE: Interesting sundial in Japan
Hello all, It appears to be an interesting adaptation of a south facing wall type of dial. The high tech shape and materials are visually and I assume tactually pleasing. As Peter has said, since it is not polar / equatorially aligned, the equal hour lines will not read very accurately. Too bad "Tamago" didn't query the list about it first. There is obviously a lot of unused dial face and the shiny material is another example of making a better mirror than shadow delineator. You can see the shadow on the concrete pad and then none on the dial. Maybe that is the reason for all of the raised beads; makes it a little like a digital, 10 minute clock. Who knows, maybe the blind can read it by heat? Ha! Looks like the vandals are removing the beads already too. Still it's a very nice sculpture and one "Tamago"? should be proud of. Fritz Stumpges -Original Message- From: sundial-boun...@uni-koeln.de [mailto:sundial-boun...@uni-koeln.de]on Behalf Of J. Tallman Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2009 9:30 AM To: Sundial Mailing List Subject: Interesting sundial in Japan Hello All, Here is a dial in Japan that I thought some of you may find interesting: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Sundial_bunkanomori_tokushima.jpg I have seen it a couple times in the past month while casually browsing for sundial pictures, but I have never been able to find a good description for it. Does anyone know about this dial? I would be interested in what some of you think is really going on here, since this is a pretty unique configuration. Best, Jim Tallman www.artisanindustrials.com jtall...@artisanindustrials.com --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
Re: Interesting sundial in Japan
Hi All, I think it is just a direct south facing vertical dial for a (low) northerly latitude with a circular chapter ring centred at the foot of the gnomon. The hours above the horizontal never get to see a shadow, but they are marked for artistic reasons. Just like the "140mph" on my car's speedometer! The hour marks are not, I think, equally spaced at 15 degrees. I think they are correctly spaced for a vertical dial. As for the dots between the hours, I can make no sense of them at all. I'm pretty sure they are not Braille, not Morse Code,... Are they an optical illusion, perhaps? Maybe they are all, in truth, the same colour but just look different in the photo. Chris Lusby Taylor 51.4N 1.3W - Original Message - From: "Peter Mayer" To: "J. Tallman" Cc: "Sundial Mailing List" Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 2:36 AM Subject: Re: Interesting sundial in Japan > Hi Jim, > > It is interesting. But in essence, I think, it's really just a variant > armillary dial. If you slice away the night hours and replace the gnomon with a > pole style, it all looks quite familiar. BTW, since the chapter ring isn't at > right angles to the gnomon, I assume that there is a minor error in reading the > time... > > best wishes, > > Peter > > Quoting "J. Tallman" : > > > Hello All, > > > > Here is a dial in Japan that I thought some of you may find interesting: > > > > http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Sundial_bunkanomori_tokushima.jpg > > > > I have seen it a couple times in the past month while casually browsing for > > sundial pictures, but I have never been able to find a good description for > > it. Does anyone know about this dial? I would be interested in what some of > > you think is really going on here, since this is a pretty unique > > configuration. > > > > > > Best, > > > > Jim Tallman > > www.artisanindustrials.com > > jtall...@artisanindustrials.com > > > > > > > -- > Peter Mayer > Politics Department > The University of Adelaide, AUSTRALIA 5005 > Ph: +61 8 8303 5606 > Fax : +61 8 8303 3443 > e-mail: peter.ma...@adelaide.edu.au > CRICOS Provider Number 00123M > --- > This email message is intended only for the addressee(s) > and contains information that may be confidential and/or > copyright. If you are not the intended recipient please > notify the sender by reply email and immediately delete > this email. Use, disclosure or reproduction of this email > by anyone other than the intended recipient(s) is strictly > prohibited. No representation is made that this email or > any attachments are free of viruses. Virus scanning is > recommended and is the responsibility of the recipient. > --- > https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial > --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
Re: Interesting sundial in Japan
MessageIt is an interesting realisation, but is it not just a vertical dial with the night hours added, and the style carried through beyond the plane of the dial plate, for 'artistic' effect? I agree the Braille/Morse/??? dots are a puzzle, though. John - Original Message - From: J. Tallman To: Sundial Mailing List Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2009 5:29 PM Subject: Interesting sundial in Japan Hello All, Here is a dial in Japan that I thought some of you may find interesting: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Sundial_bunkanomori_tokushima.jpg I have seen it a couple times in the past month while casually browsing for sundial pictures, but I have never been able to find a good description for it. Does anyone know about this dial? I would be interested in what some of you think is really going on here, since this is a pretty unique configuration. Best, Jim Tallman www.artisanindustrials.com jtall...@artisanindustrials.com -- --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
Re: Interesting sundial in Japan
Hi Jim, It is interesting. But in essence, I think, it's really just a variant armillary dial. If you slice away the night hours and replace the gnomon with a pole style, it all looks quite familiar. BTW, since the chapter ring isn't at right angles to the gnomon, I assume that there is a minor error in reading the time... best wishes, Peter Quoting "J. Tallman" : > Hello All, > > Here is a dial in Japan that I thought some of you may find interesting: > > http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Sundial_bunkanomori_tokushima.jpg > > I have seen it a couple times in the past month while casually browsing for > sundial pictures, but I have never been able to find a good description for > it. Does anyone know about this dial? I would be interested in what some of > you think is really going on here, since this is a pretty unique > configuration. > > > Best, > > Jim Tallman > www.artisanindustrials.com > jtall...@artisanindustrials.com > > -- Peter Mayer Politics Department The University of Adelaide, AUSTRALIA 5005 Ph: +61 8 8303 5606 Fax : +61 8 8303 3443 e-mail: peter.ma...@adelaide.edu.au CRICOS Provider Number 00123M --- This email message is intended only for the addressee(s) and contains information that may be confidential and/or copyright. If you are not the intended recipient please notify the sender by reply email and immediately delete this email. Use, disclosure or reproduction of this email by anyone other than the intended recipient(s) is strictly prohibited. No representation is made that this email or any attachments are free of viruses. Virus scanning is recommended and is the responsibility of the recipient. --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
RE: Interesting sundial in Japan
It's real interesting, but what are the dots in the chapter ring that look like braile or maybe some kind of numeral notation? Notice that the gnomon's shadow is not visible on the stainless steel- at least in this photo. From: sundial-boun...@uni-koeln.de [mailto:sundial-boun...@uni-koeln.de] On Behalf Of J. Tallman Sent: Tuesday, April 28, 2009 9:30 AM To: Sundial Mailing List Subject: Interesting sundial in Japan Hello All, Here is a dial in Japan that I thought some of you may find interesting: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Sundial_bunkanomori_tokushima.jpg I have seen it a couple times in the past month while casually browsing for sundial pictures, but I have never been able to find a good description for it. Does anyone know about this dial? I would be interested in what some of you think is really going on here, since this is a pretty unique configuration. Best, Jim Tallman www.artisanindustrials.com jtall...@artisanindustrials.com --- https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
