Re: time scale labels
Hello, Willy!
I'd be glad to see the drawings.
Could you tell us where exactly the building is being built, so that we can go
and
see, and maybe also give some info about who the owners are and how did you
convince them to include a sundial on their building?
Thanks already and all the best.
Thierry
50.5 N 4.3 E
Willy Leenders wrote:
>
> Fer,
>
> Only the first design drawings of the sundial are available.
> The building is in construction and reaches on this moment the ground floor
> level.
> I can send on demand 3 drawings in jpeg-format (scanned of an Excell worksheet
> graphic).
> Drawing 1: the sundial for a vertical wall
> Drawing 2: the sundial for the cylindric wall, projection on a vertical plane
> Drawing 3: the sundial for the cylindric wall, unrolled in a plane
> Drawing 3 includes the coordinates for the intersections of the hour lines and
> the date lines (zodiac sign periodes) for use at the construction.
> The architects choose for hourlines corresponding solar time with correction
> to
> standard time only for the longitude and date lines only for solstices and
> equinoxes.
> The drawings have the same scale and correspond to the 3 phases ('fase' in
> Dutch) of the calculation.
>
> Orientation of the wall: 20,233 degree west of south
> Heigth of the sundial: between 15 m and 18 m.
> Radius of the cylinder: 4630 mm
> Arrow of the arc: 1363 mm
> Latitude: 50,865 north
> The sundial is a nodal sundial. The node is situated in the middle of the cord
> of the arc.
>
> Who checks the calculations?
>
> Willy Leenders
> Hasselt, Flanders, Belgium
>
-
Re: time scale labels
Fer,
Only the first design drawings of the sundial are available.
The building is in construction and reaches on this moment the ground floor
level.
I can send on demand 3 drawings in jpeg-format (scanned of an Excell worksheet
graphic).
Drawing 1: the sundial for a vertical wall
Drawing 2: the sundial for the cylindric wall, projection on a vertical plane
Drawing 3: the sundial for the cylindric wall, unrolled in a plane
Drawing 3 includes the coordinates for the intersections of the hour lines and
the date lines (zodiac sign periodes) for use at the construction.
The architects choose for hourlines corresponding solar time with correction to
standard time only for the longitude and date lines only for solstices and
equinoxes.
The drawings have the same scale and correspond to the 3 phases ('fase' in
Dutch) of the calculation.
Orientation of the wall: 20,233 degree west of south
Heigth of the sundial: between 15 m and 18 m.
Radius of the cylinder: 4630 mm
Arrow of the arc: 1363 mm
Latitude: 50,865 north
The sundial is a nodal sundial. The node is situated in the middle of the cord
of the arc.
Who checks the calculations?
Willy Leenders
Hasselt, Flanders, Belgium
"fer j. de vries" wrote:
> Willy,
>
> Show us a picture of that dial.
>
> Fer.
>
> Fer J. de Vries
> mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> http://www.iae.nl/users/ferdv/
> Eindhoven, Netherlands
> lat. 51:30 N long. 5:30 E
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Willy Leenders" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To:
> Sent: Monday, July 22, 2002 6:40 PM
> Subject: Re: time scale labels
>
> > David,
> >
> > I calculated a week ago a sundial of 7 m x 4 m on a cilindric part of the
> façade
> > of a new building in Brussels at a heigth of 15 m. One has to stand at the
> other
> > side of the avenue to see the shadow of a ball indicating the hour on the
> > façade.
> >
> > Your 'simple' solution is here not suitable.
> >
> > Willy Leenders
> > Flanders, Belgium
> >
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> >
> > > My feeling is that the simpler you make the dial, the more likely it is
> to be
> > > used/understood. So.make a dial with only one scale of hours,
> arranged to
> > > show local time i.e. noon line vertical, and noon (preferably) or 1pm
> marked
> > > on that vertical line. then in the equation of time correction curve,
> allow
> > > for longitude in the scale of minutes correction (the curve is 'lifted'
> on
> > > the minutes axis by 4minutes for everey degree west of the time zone
> standard
> > > meridian, and lowered correspondinglyfor every degree east. Then put a
> short
> > > instruction clearly on the area of the correction curve that says (if in
> UK,
> > > for example, for a dial that has 12 marked on the local noon line) GMT:
> apply
> > > minutes. BST: + 1 hr.
> > > David Brown, Somerton, Somerset, UK
> > > -
> >
> > -
> >
>
> -
-
Re: time scale labels
Willy, Show us a picture of that dial. Fer. Fer J. de Vries mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.iae.nl/users/ferdv/ Eindhoven, Netherlands lat. 51:30 N long. 5:30 E - Original Message - From: "Willy Leenders" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Monday, July 22, 2002 6:40 PM Subject: Re: time scale labels > David, > > I calculated a week ago a sundial of 7 m x 4 m on a cilindric part of the façade > of a new building in Brussels at a heigth of 15 m. One has to stand at the other > side of the avenue to see the shadow of a ball indicating the hour on the > façade. > > Your 'simple' solution is here not suitable. > > Willy Leenders > Flanders, Belgium > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > > My feeling is that the simpler you make the dial, the more likely it is to be > > used/understood. So.make a dial with only one scale of hours, arranged to > > show local time i.e. noon line vertical, and noon (preferably) or 1pm marked > > on that vertical line. then in the equation of time correction curve, allow > > for longitude in the scale of minutes correction (the curve is 'lifted' on > > the minutes axis by 4minutes for everey degree west of the time zone standard > > meridian, and lowered correspondinglyfor every degree east. Then put a short > > instruction clearly on the area of the correction curve that says (if in UK, > > for example, for a dial that has 12 marked on the local noon line) GMT: apply > > minutes. BST: + 1 hr. > > David Brown, Somerton, Somerset, UK > > - > > - > -
Re: time scale labels
David, I calculated a week ago a sundial of 7 m x 4 m on a cilindric part of the façade of a new building in Brussels at a heigth of 15 m. One has to stand at the other side of the avenue to see the shadow of a ball indicating the hour on the façade. Your 'simple' solution is here not suitable. Willy Leenders Flanders, Belgium [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > My feeling is that the simpler you make the dial, the more likely it is to be > used/understood. So.make a dial with only one scale of hours, arranged to > show local time i.e. noon line vertical, and noon (preferably) or 1pm marked > on that vertical line. then in the equation of time correction curve, allow > for longitude in the scale of minutes correction (the curve is 'lifted' on > the minutes axis by 4minutes for everey degree west of the time zone standard > meridian, and lowered correspondinglyfor every degree east. Then put a short > instruction clearly on the area of the correction curve that says (if in UK, > for example, for a dial that has 12 marked on the local noon line) GMT: apply > minutes. BST: + 1 hr. > David Brown, Somerton, Somerset, UK > - -
Re: time scale labels
My feeling is that the simpler you make the dial, the more likely it is to be used/understood. So.make a dial with only one scale of hours, arranged to show local time i.e. noon line vertical, and noon (preferably) or 1pm marked on that vertical line. then in the equation of time correction curve, allow for longitude in the scale of minutes correction (the curve is 'lifted' on the minutes axis by 4minutes for everey degree west of the time zone standard meridian, and lowered correspondinglyfor every degree east. Then put a short instruction clearly on the area of the correction curve that says (if in UK, for example, for a dial that has 12 marked on the local noon line) GMT: apply minutes. BST: + 1 hr. David Brown, Somerton, Somerset, UK -
Re: time scale labels / Disclaimer
find only one sundial at my website (the URL is part of my default signature). As I just mentioned: I am new in sundials. Please, don't visit my homepage if you want to find sundials there. I will keep you posted whenever there will be sundials on my homepage ;) Best regards, Friedrich At 23:47 20.07.2002 Saturday, Friedrich Lehmkuehler wrote: Peter, may I ask you to send that PDF fileto my mail address? I am quite new in sundials but I think that I am already "infected". At the moment, I am about to collect eagerly all I can get about sundials. Thank you in advance, Friedrich -- Friedrich Lehmkühler * Wertheim am Main * Germany e-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web: http://www.lehmkuehler.com - -
Re: time scale labels
may I ask you to send that PDF fileto my mail address? I am quite new in sundials but I think that I am already "infected". At the moment, I am about to collect eagerly all I can get about sundials. Thank you in advance, Friedrich At 01:39 19.07.2002 Friday, Peter Mayer wrote: My 'tuppence' worth, which doesn't precisely meet Jim's need, is a 'Lelievre Dial' which I made last year. I modified Steve's brilliant DeltaCad code to add a 'Standard Time' scale on the inner edge and a 'Daylight Savings Time' on the outer. For simplicity's sake, all numbers were Roman. Because the Lelievre dial incorporates both the EoT and Longitude correction into the dial face, the labels in this case are correct. (I can send a .pdf (c. 300k) of the dial to anyone who's interested). Peter -- -- Peter Mayer | [EMAIL PROTECTED] Politics Department | University of Adelaide | 'phone:+61.8 8303 5606/5610 Adelaide, SA 5005 | FAX: (+61.8) 8303 3446 AUSTRALIA | -- - -- Friedrich Lehmkühler * Wertheim am Main * Germany e-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web: http://www.lehmkuehler.com - -
Re: time scale labels
I like Patrick's approach and attitude. You could use labels such as... "Use During Standard Time" and "Use During Daylight Saving Time" but it does get wordy. If the purpose is to aid the casual observer and regular observer, I say go straight for the simple labeling. I think it is great to have the two scales. What the two scales will help explain to the majority of people who will see your dial will help the cause of misunderstood dialists far more than a technically correct label. The best thing is that there is another sundial coming into the world! Thank you all for the discussion. Gino Schiavone -
RE: time scale labels
Hi Jim, I agree with your approach. These hour lines show the average time zone time for the location. The EQT curve provides the final daily correction to bring the reading to clock time. I recommend this as a good practice particularly when large corrections are required. Where I live, clock time is way off true solar time. Here here. The summer correction here is 1:41:31! As you proposed, It is a good practice on a vertical dial to show the summer times on the bottom and the winter times on the top as the shadow lengths are longer in the summer. Try putting the numbers close to the solstice declination lines for summer and winter. Roger Bailey Walking Shadow Designs N 51.0841 W 115.3782 -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of J.TallmanSent: July 18, 2002 8:56 AMTo: Sundial ListSubject: time scale labels Hello All, I have been working on a vertical sundial and I have a question. This South facing vertical has two time scales on it, one at the top that shows the hour numbers to use during the period of the year when Standard time is in effect, and one at the bottom to show the hour numbers to use during the Summer when Daylight Saving time is in effect. The hourlines will include the appropriate longitude correction for the site. There is also a complete EoT chart located right under the shadowfield on the face of the dialplate. My question is whether or not it would be acceptable to actually label each scale "Standard Time" or "Daylight Saving Time" so that casual observers would be able to tell which one to use for the appropriate time of the year. My understanding is that there are three things to consider when designing a dial that will indicate Standard Time: solar time at the reference meridian, longitude correction, and EoT. Since all three of these things will be dealt with on the dial face, would it be appropriate to label the time scales? One of my good sundial friends has commented that technically the scales do not really indicate true Standard Time/DST because the EoT is not actually computed into the hourlines. I would be interested to hear what the consensus is regarding this issue, because I want to do the right thing. If these exact titles are objectionable does anyone have any ideas what I might use for alternative labels? I am trying to make a dial that is easy for "regular people" to understand and use, and I think some kind of label along the time scales would be helpful to casual observers. Regards, Jim Tallman Sr. Designer FX Studios 513.829.1888
Re: time scale labels
My question is whether or not it would be acceptable to actually label each scale "Standard Time" or "Daylight Saving Time" so that casual observers would be able to tell which one to use for the appropriate time of the year. My 'tuppence' worth, which doesn't precisely meet Jim's need, is a 'Lelievre Dial' which I made last year. I modified Steve's brilliant DeltaCad code to add a 'Standard Time' scale on the inner edge and a 'Daylight Savings Time' on the outer. For simplicity's sake, all numbers were Roman. Because the Lelievre dial incorporates both the EoT and Longitude correction into the dial face, the labels in this case are correct. (I can send a .pdf (c. 300k) of the dial to anyone who's interested). Peter -- -- Peter Mayer | [EMAIL PROTECTED] Politics Department | University of Adelaide | 'phone:+61.8 8303 5606/5610 Adelaide, SA 5005 | FAX: (+61.8) 8303 3446 AUSTRALIA | -- -
Re: time scale labels
Mac and I have been using the term "Zonal Time" to describe solar time corrected for longitude. John John L. Carmichael Jr. Sundial Sculptures 925 E. Foothills Dr. Tucson Arizona 85718 USA Tel: 520-696-1709 Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Website: <http://www.sundialsculptures.com> - Original Message - From: "Patrick Powers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Thursday, July 18, 2002 1:09 PM Subject: time scale labels > Message text written by INTERNET:sundial@rrz.uni-koeln.de > > >My question is whether or not it would be acceptable to actually label > each scale "Standard Time" or "Daylight Saving Time"< > > You can do whatever you like - you are the designer! If nothing else you > will generate a discussion between other 'anoraks' like the rest of us! > > However, if you worry about the 'purity' aspect and since you have already > corrected for longitude, you could use the phrases 'Standard Solar Time' > and 'Daylight Saving Solar Time'. Then mark your EoT graph as providing > the correction from 'Solar Time' to 'Mean Time'. > > Hope this helps > > Patrick > > > > - > E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Web: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Patrick_Powers/ > Lat: N 51d. 49m. 09s: Long: W 00d. 21m. 53s > > - > -
Re: time scale labels
A sundial has to indicate local time, the solar time or natural time. People that like to know the official time has to look on a watch. That is all you have to explain to 'regular people'. They will understand it. Willy Leenders Flanders in Belgium "J.Tallman" wrote: Hello All, I have been working on a vertical sundial and I have a question. This South facing vertical has two time scales on it, one at the top that shows the hour numbers to use during the period of the year when Standard time is in effect, and one at the bottom to show the hour numbers to use during the Summer when Daylight Saving time is in effect. The hourlines will include the appropriate longitude correction for the site. There is also a complete EoT chart located right under the shadowfield on the face of the dialplate. My question is whether or not it would be acceptable to actually label each scale "Standard Time" or "Daylight Saving Time" so that casual observers would be able to tell which one to use for the appropriate time of the year. My understanding is that there are three things to consider when designing a dial that will indicate Standard Time: solar time at the reference meridian, longitude correction, and EoT. Since all three of these things will be dealt with on the dial face, would it be appropriate to label the time scales? One of my good sundial friends has commented that technically the scales do not really indicate true Standard Time/DST because the EoT is not actually computed into the hourlines. I would be interested to hear what the consensus is regarding this issue, because I want to do the right thing. If these exact titles are objectionable does anyone have any ideas what I might use for alternative labels? I am trying to make a dial that is easy for "regular people" to understand and use, and I think some kind of label along the time scales would be helpful to casual observers. Regards, Jim TallmanSr. DesignerFX Studios513.829.1888
time scale labels
Message text written by INTERNET:sundial@rrz.uni-koeln.de >My question is whether or not it would be acceptable to actually label each scale "Standard Time" or "Daylight Saving Time"< You can do whatever you like - you are the designer! If nothing else you will generate a discussion between other 'anoraks' like the rest of us! However, if you worry about the 'purity' aspect and since you have already corrected for longitude, you could use the phrases 'Standard Solar Time' and 'Daylight Saving Solar Time'. Then mark your EoT graph as providing the correction from 'Solar Time' to 'Mean Time'. Hope this helps Patrick - E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Patrick_Powers/ Lat: N 51d. 49m. 09s: Long: W 00d. 21m. 53s -
Re: time scale labels
Due to horizon clutter, I am constrained to
a south-facing dial that can only display times near noon, so I made a
meridian dial with a discontinuous analemma to account for transitions
between CDT and CST. It's at http://www.stlwoodworkersguild.org/gallery/snyder_sundial.jpg
Don Snyder
38.6N, 90.3W
- Original Message -
From:
sundials
To: sundial@rrz.uni-koeln.de
Sent: Thursday, July 18, 2002 1:30
PM
Subject: Re: time scale labels
Hello Jim,
To differentiate between the two scales perhaps you could
use roman numerals for one and arabic for the other. Also, may I suggest
that instead of putting them one above the other that you put one "inside" the
other so that they appear to be side by side. Perhaps you could separate
them by a continuous double line?
As John has said, I don't think it matters whether you call
them summer time or DST etc. but you would need an EoT curve either on the
dial plate or, more conveniently, on a small plate at head
height.
Regards,
Silas Higgon (Connoisseur Sun Dials)
- Original Message -
From:
J.Tallman
To: Sundial List
Sent: Thursday, July 18, 2002 3:56
PM
Subject: time scale labels
Hello All,
I have been working on a vertical sundial and I have a question.
This South facing vertical has two time scales on it, one at the
top that shows the hour numbers to use during the period of the year
when Standard time is in effect, and one at the bottom to show the hour
numbers to use during the Summer when Daylight Saving time is in
effect. The hourlines will include the appropriate longitude
correction for the site. There is also a complete EoT chart
located right under the shadowfield on the face of the dialplate.
My question is whether or not it would be acceptable to
actually label each scale "Standard Time" or "Daylight Saving
Time" so that casual observers would be able to
tell which one to use for the appropriate time of the year. My
understanding is that there are three things to consider when designing
a dial that will indicate Standard Time: solar time at the reference
meridian, longitude correction, and EoT. Since all three of these
things will be dealt with on the dial face, would it be appropriate to label
the time scales?
One of my good sundial friends has commented that technically the
scales do not really indicate true Standard Time/DST because the EoT is not
actually computed into the hourlines. I would be interested to hear
what the consensus is regarding this issue, because I want to do the right
thing. If these exact titles are objectionable does anyone have
any ideas what I might use for alternative labels? I am trying to
make a dial that is easy for "regular people" to understand
and use, and I think some kind of label along the time scales would be
helpful to casual observers.
Regards,
Jim Tallman
Sr. Designer
FX Studios
513.829.1888
Re: time scale labels
In a message dated 7/18/2002 11:21:38 AM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > I am trying to make a dial that is easy for "regular people" to understand > and use, and I think some kind of label along the time scales would be > helpful to casual observers. Good luck. I have not found the ideal solution either for this particular situation. Perhaps labling the scales "Approximate Standard Time", or "Uncorrected Standard Time", and the same for DST. This may encourage your readers to use the EOT chart. I wish I had a better suggestion. I like John Davis' suggestion of Winter Time and Summer Time. Bill Gottesman Burlington, VT 44.4674N, 73.2027W -
Re: time scale labels
Hello Jim, To differentiate between the two scales perhaps you could use roman numerals for one and arabic for the other. Also, may I suggest that instead of putting them one above the other that you put one "inside" the other so that they appear to be side by side. Perhaps you could separate them by a continuous double line? As John has said, I don't think it matters whether you call them summer time or DST etc. but you would need an EoT curve either on the dial plate or, more conveniently, on a small plate at head height. Regards, Silas Higgon (Connoisseur Sun Dials) - Original Message - From: J.Tallman To: Sundial List Sent: Thursday, July 18, 2002 3:56 PM Subject: time scale labels Hello All, I have been working on a vertical sundial and I have a question. This South facing vertical has two time scales on it, one at the top that shows the hour numbers to use during the period of the year when Standard time is in effect, and one at the bottom to show the hour numbers to use during the Summer when Daylight Saving time is in effect. The hourlines will include the appropriate longitude correction for the site. There is also a complete EoT chart located right under the shadowfield on the face of the dialplate. My question is whether or not it would be acceptable to actually label each scale "Standard Time" or "Daylight Saving Time" so that casual observers would be able to tell which one to use for the appropriate time of the year. My understanding is that there are three things to consider when designing a dial that will indicate Standard Time: solar time at the reference meridian, longitude correction, and EoT. Since all three of these things will be dealt with on the dial face, would it be appropriate to label the time scales? One of my good sundial friends has commented that technically the scales do not really indicate true Standard Time/DST because the EoT is not actually computed into the hourlines. I would be interested to hear what the consensus is regarding this issue, because I want to do the right thing. If these exact titles are objectionable does anyone have any ideas what I might use for alternative labels? I am trying to make a dial that is easy for "regular people" to understand and use, and I think some kind of label along the time scales would be helpful to casual observers. Regards, Jim Tallman Sr. Designer FX Studios 513.829.1888
Re: time scale labels
Hi Jim, Although it would be technically incorect to use the terms "Standard Time" and "Daylight Saving Time" for these scales, I for one would not object as it does convey the meanings to th general public. And it does serve as a conversation-starter for us pedantic diallists ;-). If you wanted to avoid these terms with their precise definitions, then you could use "Summer Time" and "Winter Time" as approximations. I once used the term "Greenwich Time" (rather than Greenwich Mean Time) for a horizontal dial which included the longitude correction and had the EoT as a graph. Let us know what you finally opt for, please! Regards, John Dr J R Davis Flowton Dials N52d 08m: E1d 05m -
time scale labels
Hello All, I have been working on a vertical sundial and I have a question. This South facing vertical has two time scales on it, one at the top that shows the hour numbers to use during the period of the year when Standard time is in effect, and one at the bottom to show the hour numbers to use during the Summer when Daylight Saving time is in effect. The hourlines will include the appropriate longitude correction for the site. There is also a complete EoT chart located right under the shadowfield on the face of the dialplate. My question is whether or not it would be acceptable to actually label each scale "Standard Time" or "Daylight Saving Time" so that casual observers would be able to tell which one to use for the appropriate time of the year. My understanding is that there are three things to consider when designing a dial that will indicate Standard Time: solar time at the reference meridian, longitude correction, and EoT. Since all three of these things will be dealt with on the dial face, would it be appropriate to label the time scales? One of my good sundial friends has commented that technically the scales do not really indicate true Standard Time/DST because the EoT is not actually computed into the hourlines. I would be interested to hear what the consensus is regarding this issue, because I want to do the right thing. If these exact titles are objectionable does anyone have any ideas what I might use for alternative labels? I am trying to make a dial that is easy for "regular people" to understand and use, and I think some kind of label along the time scales would be helpful to casual observers. Regards, Jim Tallman Sr. Designer FX Studios 513.829.1888
