upside down world

[Brent]

Hello again;

For fun I removed my globe from its' frame and re-inserted 
it upside down. Now Antarctica is at the top.


I suppose nothing has really changed except my point of view.

I notice that when I change south to north, east is now on 
my left as I look north. This is disorienting to say the 
least. I suppose I should also change east to west but then 
the sun would rise in the west and set in the east!


I notice also that viewed from the top, the earth is now 
turning in a clockwise direction. This makes more sense for 
time keeping devices that have hands.


I think north and south, east and west, up and down, top and 
bottom are arbitrary directions that could change if we 
wanted to.


However, the imaginary circle we trace in the air for 
describing clockwise direction cannot change. Sure we can 
swap names but that circle we trace identifies a direction 
of travel and will forever be the same direction.


Suppose I was in charge and I changed south to north and 
east to west. Would our sundials all still work? Would it 
simply be a matter of changing the NSEW labels or would the 
hour marks have to be flipped also?


Has anyone ever made an upside down sundial?

thanks;
brent

---
https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial

Re: upside down world

[Richard B. Langley]

I bought an armillary-sphere style sundial at a garden centre in  
Holland many years back. When I got it home, I discovered it was  
intended for use in the southern hemisphere as the hours on the  
hour-marker band were "wrong." But flipping it over had them correct.  
Unfortunately, one has to stand on one's head to read the time. ;-)

-- Richard Langley

Quoting Brent :


Hello again;

For fun I removed my globe from its' frame and re-inserted it upside  
down. Now Antarctica is at the top.


I suppose nothing has really changed except my point of view.

I notice that when I change south to north, east is now on my left  
as I look north. This is disorienting to say the least. I suppose I  
should also change east to west but then the sun would rise in the  
west and set in the east!


I notice also that viewed from the top, the earth is now turning in  
a clockwise direction. This makes more sense for time keeping  
devices that have hands.


I think north and south, east and west, up and down, top and bottom  
are arbitrary directions that could change if we wanted to.


However, the imaginary circle we trace in the air for describing  
clockwise direction cannot change. Sure we can swap names but that  
circle we trace identifies a direction of travel and will forever be  
the same direction.


Suppose I was in charge and I changed south to north and east to  
west. Would our sundials all still work? Would it simply be a matter  
of changing the NSEW labels or would the hour marks have to be  
flipped also?


Has anyone ever made an upside down sundial?

thanks;
brent

---
https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial






===
 Richard B. LangleyE-mail: l...@unb.ca
 Geodetic Research Laboratory  Web: http://www.unb.ca/GGE/
 Dept. of Geodesy and Geomatics EngineeringPhone:+1 506 453-5142
 University of New Brunswick   Fax:  +1 506 453-4943
 Fredericton, N.B., Canada  E3B 5A3
 Fredericton?  Where's that?  See: http://www.city.fredericton.nb.ca/
===



---
https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial

Re: upside down world

[Mike Shaw]

Perhaps if the cradles of civilisation had been in the southern hemisphere, 
our clocks would all go round the other way.


Incidentally, I am surprised by how many television adverts in the UK show 
the sun rising or setting the wrong way.

Do you suppose a lot of the filming is done in Australia?

Mike Shaw

53.37N 3.02W
www.wiz.to/sundials 


---
https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial

Re: upside down world

[John Pickard]

Good morning Brent,

With my tongue or gnomon firmly in cheek, may I gently suggest that the 
common view of the Northern Hemisphere on top is quite mistaken, and is a 
confidence trick perpetuated by those in the Northern Hemisphere who have 
never ventured south to see the wonderful sunny skies across southern 
Africa, South America, Australia etc., the Milky Way, and of course, the 
fabulous Southern Cross. If you ask anyone from south of the Equator, they 
will tell you this! Our world and our dials are not "upside down", yours are 
;-)))




Cheers, John

John Pickard
john.pick...@bigpond.com

- Original Message - 
From: "Brent" 

To: "Sundial List" 
Sent: Friday, February 18, 2011 2:00 AM
Subject: upside down world



Hello again;

For fun I removed my globe from its' frame and re-inserted it upside down. 
Now Antarctica is at the top.


I suppose nothing has really changed except my point of view.

I notice that when I change south to north, east is now on my left as I 
look north. This is disorienting to say the least. I suppose I should also 
change east to west but then the sun would rise in the west and set in the 
east!


I notice also that viewed from the top, the earth is now turning in a 
clockwise direction. This makes more sense for time keeping devices that 
have hands.


I think north and south, east and west, up and down, top and bottom are 
arbitrary directions that could change if we wanted to.


However, the imaginary circle we trace in the air for describing clockwise 
direction cannot change. Sure we can swap names but that circle we trace 
identifies a direction of travel and will forever be the same direction.


Suppose I was in charge and I changed south to north and east to west. 
Would our sundials all still work? Would it simply be a matter of changing 
the NSEW labels or would the hour marks have to be flipped also?


Has anyone ever made an upside down sundial?

thanks;
brent

---
https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial



---
https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial

Re: upside down world

[John Pickard]

Good morning Mike,

Last time I checked, the sun rose in the east here in Sydney, and sets in 
the west. Of course, if you step from New South Wales into Queensland, the 
sun rises an hour later. Wow, I've just lost an hour of my life, but at 
least the curtains don't fade in Queensland!


I suspect that the reason for confusion in the UK advertising industry is 
that they are a bit like ours: basically pig-ignorant!


The best (?worst) example I have seen of the sun setting in the east was in 
the appalling John Wayne film "Green Berets" where the final scene has the 
Duke watching the sunset over a beach in Vietnam. My maps suggest that 
Vietnam doesn't have a west coast, but hey, that's Hollywood, and movies are 
not exactly known for letting the facts get in the way of a good (or in the 
case of Green Berets, a lousy) story.



Cheers, John

John Pickard
john.pick...@bigpond.com

- Original Message - 
From: "Mike Shaw" 

To: ; "Sundial List" 
Sent: Friday, February 18, 2011 2:48 AM
Subject: Re: upside down world


Perhaps if the cradles of civilisation had been in the southern 
hemisphere, our clocks would all go round the other way.


Incidentally, I am surprised by how many television adverts in the UK show 
the sun rising or setting the wrong way.

Do you suppose a lot of the filming is done in Australia?

Mike Shaw

53.37N 3.02W
www.wiz.to/sundials
---
https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial



---
https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial

Re: upside down world

[Peter Mayer]

Hi Brent,

  If you've not seen it before, you may enjoy the 'Universal Corrective 
Map'  (pinched from: www.odt.org/southupmaps.htm)


best wishes,

Peter

On 18/02/2011 01:30, Brent wrote:

Hello again;

For fun I removed my globe from its' frame and re-inserted it upside
down. Now Antarctica is at the top.




--
--
Peter Mayer
Politics Department
The University of Adelaide, AUSTRALIA 5005
Ph : +61 8 8303 5606
Fax : +61 8 8303 3443
e-mail: peter.ma...@adelaide.edu.au
CRICOS Provider Number 00123M
---

This email message is intended only for the addressee(s) and contains 
information that may be confidential and/or copyright. If you are not 
the intended recipient please notify the sender by reply email and 
immediately delete this email. Use, disclosure or reproduction of this 
email by anyone other than the intended recipient(s) is strictly 
prohibited. No representation is made that this email or any attachments 
are free of viruses. Virus scanning is recommended and is the 
responsibility of the recipient.
<>---
https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial

Re: upside down world

[Donald Christensen]

I was borne in the northern hemisphere and lived there for 22 years. I got
use to reading maps where north is on top, south is on the bottom, west is
on the left, and east is on the right. So far so good. I also got use to the
equator is south of me, the ocean is west of me, and inland is to the right.

Now I live in Brisbane Australia. The equator is north, the ocean is right,
and inland is west and on the left (when facing north)
We also drive on the wrong side of the road. For 3 years after my move, I
kept mixing up right from left.

I have been living in Australia for 24 years. Sometimes when someone gives
me a ride, I walk to their car to the drivers seat thinking it's the
passengers seat.

It isn't easy to 'unlearn' the first 22 years of my life.

When I draw a sundial for the southern hemisphere, I have to check it, check
it again, re-check it, and build it. 6 months later I'll get disorientated
again, look at the sundial that I built and second guess myself that I got
it wrong. (I didn't)

cheers
Donald



On Fri, Feb 18, 2011 at 9:06 AM, Peter Mayer wrote:

> Hi Brent,
>
>  If you've not seen it before, you may enjoy the 'Universal Corrective Map'
>  (pinched from: www.odt.org/southupmaps.htm)
>
> best wishes,
>
> Peter
>
>
> On 18/02/2011 01:30, Brent wrote:
>
>> Hello again;
>>
>> For fun I removed my globe from its' frame and re-inserted it upside
>> down. Now Antarctica is at the top.
>>
>>  
>
> --
> --
> Peter Mayer
> Politics Department
> The University of Adelaide, AUSTRALIA 5005
> Ph : +61 8 8303 5606
> Fax : +61 8 8303 3443
> e-mail: peter.ma...@adelaide.edu.au
> CRICOS Provider Number 00123M
> ---
>
> This email message is intended only for the addressee(s) and contains
> information that may be confidential and/or copyright. If you are not the
> intended recipient please notify the sender by reply email and immediately
> delete this email. Use, disclosure or reproduction of this email by anyone
> other than the intended recipient(s) is strictly prohibited. No
> representation is made that this email or any attachments are free of
> viruses. Virus scanning is recommended and is the responsibility of the
> recipient.
>
> ---
> https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
>
>
>


-- 
Cheers
Donald
0423 102 090


This e-mail is privileged and confidential. If you are not the intended
recipient please delete the message and notify the sender. Un-authorized use
of this email is subject to penalty of law.
So there!
---
https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial

Re: upside down world

[John Pickard]

Hi Donald,

I know the feeling about the disorientation when the sun or coast are in the 
"wrong" place. During my time in Canada and Arizona, I was frequently lost 
because the sun was in the southern sky rather than the northern. When I have 
visited cities with the ocean to the west (e.g. Perth), I found myself going 
south instead of north! This causes great amusement to locals, but like you, I 
had just become so used to it from years of living in Sydney.

When I was teaching visiting US students at Macquarie University, they were 
always fearful of all the poisonous things here (snakes, spiders, box 
jellyfish, etc.) but I reassured them that the funnel web spiders all over 
campus which are quite lethal were nowhere as dangerous as pedestrian 
crossings. Two US students were killed crossing a main road when they looked to 
the left, and walked straight in front of a truck coming from the right. 
Tragic. But I nearly did the same in reverse in Arizona. When Sydney had the 
olympic games in 2000, almost every street crossing was adorned with a stencil 
on the kerb "LOOK -->" to remind overseas visitors to look to the right for 
on-coming traffic.


Cheers, John

John Pickard
john.pick...@bigpond.com 

  - Original Message - 
  From: Donald Christensen 
  To: peter.ma...@adelaide.edu.au 
  Cc: Sundial List 
  Sent: Friday, February 18, 2011 10:44 AM
  Subject: Re: upside down world


  I was borne in the northern hemisphere and lived there for 22 years. I got 
use to reading maps where north is on top, south is on the bottom, west is on 
the left, and east is on the right. So far so good. I also got use to the 
equator is south of me, the ocean is west of me, and inland is to the right.

  Now I live in Brisbane Australia. The equator is north, the ocean is right, 
and inland is west and on the left (when facing north)
  We also drive on the wrong side of the road. For 3 years after my move, I 
kept mixing up right from left.

  I have been living in Australia for 24 years. Sometimes when someone gives me 
a ride, I walk to their car to the drivers seat thinking it's the passengers 
seat.

  It isn't easy to 'unlearn' the first 22 years of my life.

  When I draw a sundial for the southern hemisphere, I have to check it, check 
it again, re-check it, and build it. 6 months later I'll get disorientated 
again, look at the sundial that I built and second guess myself that I got it 
wrong. (I didn't)

  cheers
  Donald



---
https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial

Re: upside down world

[Frank King]

Dear Brent,

You have started an interesting train of
thought.  You, and others who have replied
to you, should dig out the February 2011
issue of Scientific American and read the
article:

   How Language Shapes Thought

This is subtitled:

The languages we speak affect our
perceptions of the world

The article notes that some languages have
no words for left and right and speakers of
these languages use north, south, east and
west instead.

You say:

  I think north and south, east and west,
  up and down, top and bottom are arbitrary
  directions that could change if we wanted
  to.

The article argues (and I am only partially
persuaded) that perception of direction and
allied matters depends in part on culture
and language.

If you look at a car from one side, you might
say "the front of the car is on the left".  If
you walk round the other side you would say
"the front of the car is on the right".

Speakers of languages which lack left and
right would say the front is to the north
(or whatever) in both cases.

To do this requires a strong sense of where
north is, otherwise you are stuck for words.
It turns out that even very young children
can tell you the direction of north to quite
high precision from the most unlikely of
clues.

I thought this would be a very useful trait
to have when setting out sundials!

Frank H. King
Cambridge, U.K.

---
https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial

Re: upside down world

[Tony Moss]

On 17/02/2011 23:06, Peter Mayer wrote:

Hi Brent,

  If you've not seen it before, you may enjoy the 'Universal 
Corrective Map'  (pinched from: www.odt.org/southupmaps.htm)


best wishes,

Peter



Hi Peter,
 I do like that concept, especially because it would make 
trips from Australia to the UK easier because it would be all down hill. 
;-)


Tony M.

---
https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial

RE: upside down world

[Jackie Jones]

Dear Frank,

One thing I noticed when I moved from London to Brighton was the difference
in direction language.  In London it seemed usual to say “it’s on the left
of the street”, but here on the coast, far more people say “it’s on the east
side”.

Best wishes,

Jackie

 

 

Jackie Jones

50° 50’ 09” N.0° 07’ 40” W.

 

 

 

From: sundial-boun...@uni-koeln.de [mailto:sundial-boun...@uni-koeln.de] On
Behalf Of Frank King
Sent: 18 February 2011 07:59
To: bren...@verizon.net
Cc: Sundial List
Subject: Re: upside down world

 

Dear Brent,

You have started an interesting train of
thought.  You, and others who have replied
to you, should dig out the February 2011
issue of Scientific American and read the
article:

   How Language Shapes Thought

This is subtitled:

The languages we speak affect our
perceptions of the world

The article notes that some languages have
no words for left and right and speakers of
these languages use north, south, east and
west instead.

You say:

  I think north and south, east and west,
  up and down, top and bottom are arbitrary
  directions that could change if we wanted
  to.

The article argues (and I am only partially
persuaded) that perception of direction and
allied matters depends in part on culture
and language.

If you look at a car from one side, you might
say "the front of the car is on the left".  If
you walk round the other side you would say
"the front of the car is on the right".

Speakers of languages which lack left and
right would say the front is to the north
(or whatever) in both cases.

To do this requires a strong sense of where
north is, otherwise you are stuck for words.
It turns out that even very young children
can tell you the direction of north to quite
high precision from the most unlikely of
clues.

I thought this would be a very useful trait
to have when setting out sundials!

Frank H. King
Cambridge, U.K.

---
https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial

  _  

No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 10.0.1204 / Virus Database: 1435/3451 - Release Date: 02/18/11

---
https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial

Re: upside down world

[Frank King]

Dear Jackie,

That is an interesting observation...

> ... I moved from London to Brighton...
> In London it seemed usual to say it's on
> the left of the street, but here on the
> coast, far more people say it's on the
> east side.

Next time I am in Brighton I shall test the
natives.

The natives here in Cambridge would almost all
fail.  When making arrangements to meet someone
I used to give instructions of the form "I'll
meet you at the WEST door of a certain church."
This never worked and I eventually gave up when
even the Vicar went to the wrong door.

The church in question is properly orientated
with the west end very closely aligned with
due west so there is no excuse!

It has always intrigued me that S. Peter's,
Rome (which is arguably quite an important
church!) is almost exactly 180 degrees wrong
with the "west front" facing east!  Take a
look via Google Earth or Google Maps.

That wouldn't matter too much, but the obelisk
in S. Peter's Square is used as a noon mark.

The relevant markings are set out in the pavement
on the north side of the obelisk (as expected)
but when standing on the "west front" of the
church looking out across the square, the noon
shadow is to the left not to the right.

I am not sure I would be able to find the right
door there!

Frank

---
https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial

Re: upside down world

[Brent]

I like this corrective map.
http://www.insitumixing.com/website4/corrective-map.pdf

But I wonder if it would help if we also flopped it, so the 
sun rises on the right, where we all know it does.


http://www.insitumixing.com/website4/corrected-corrective-map.pdf

Now we are getting somewhere. :)

brent


On 2/17/2011 3:06 PM, Peter Mayer wrote:

Hi Brent,

If you've not seen it before, you may enjoy the 'Universal
Corrective Map' (pinched from: www.odt.org/southupmaps.htm)

best wishes,

Peter

On 18/02/2011 01:30, Brent wrote:

Hello again;

For fun I removed my globe from its' frame and re-inserted
it upside
down. Now Antarctica is at the top.






---
https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial

Re: upside down world

[Richard Langley]

The Catholic Encyclopedia has an interesting article on church  
orientation, including a mention of St. Peter's: .

-- Richard

On 19-Feb-11, at 11:47 AM, Frank King wrote:


Dear Jackie,

That is an interesting observation...


... I moved from London to Brighton...
In London it seemed usual to say it's on
the left of the street, but here on the
coast, far more people say it's on the
east side.


Next time I am in Brighton I shall test the
natives.

The natives here in Cambridge would almost all
fail.  When making arrangements to meet someone
I used to give instructions of the form "I'll
meet you at the WEST door of a certain church."
This never worked and I eventually gave up when
even the Vicar went to the wrong door.

The church in question is properly orientated
with the west end very closely aligned with
due west so there is no excuse!

It has always intrigued me that S. Peter's,
Rome (which is arguably quite an important
church!) is almost exactly 180 degrees wrong
with the "west front" facing east!  Take a
look via Google Earth or Google Maps.

That wouldn't matter too much, but the obelisk
in S. Peter's Square is used as a noon mark.

The relevant markings are set out in the pavement
on the north side of the obelisk (as expected)
but when standing on the "west front" of the
church looking out across the square, the noon
shadow is to the left not to the right.

I am not sure I would be able to find the right
door there!

Frank

---
https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial



-
| Richard B. LangleyE-mail:  
l...@unb.ca |
| Geodetic Research Laboratory  Web: http://www.unb.ca/GGE/ 
 |
| Dept. of Geodesy and Geomatics EngineeringPhone:+1 506  
453-5142   |
| University of New Brunswick   Fax:  +1 506  
453-4943   |
| Fredericton, N.B., Canada  E3B  
5A3|
|Fredericton?  Where's that?  See: http:// 
www.fredericton.ca/   |

-

---
https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial

Re: upside down world

[Peter Mayer]

Hi Bret,

  Thanks for your posting and interesting correction to the map. 
However: do get out your globe again!  If in your imagination you face 
the southern pole, you'll then see that the sun arises on your _Left_! 
That's why the hour numbers on dials in the Southern Hemisphere run 
counter/anti-clockwise (now we're back on topic!!).


best wishes,

Peter

On 20/02/2011 01:50, Brent wrote:



These corrective maps are still wrong.
They need to be flopped as well, so the sun rises on the right as we all
know it does. ;)

Hopefully you can view my attached pdfs.

brent


On 2/17/2011 3:06 PM, Peter Mayer wrote:

Hi Brent,

If you've not seen it before, you may enjoy the 'Universal
Corrective Map' (pinched from: www.odt.org/southupmaps.htm)

best wishes,

Peter

On 18/02/2011 01:30, Brent wrote:

Hello again;

For fun I removed my globe from its' frame and re-inserted
it upside
down. Now Antarctica is at the top.






--
--
Peter Mayer
Politics Department
The University of Adelaide, AUSTRALIA 5005
Ph : +61 8 8303 5606
Fax : +61 8 8303 3443
e-mail: peter.ma...@adelaide.edu.au
CRICOS Provider Number 00123M
---

This email message is intended only for the addressee(s) and contains 
information that may be confidential and/or copyright. If you are not 
the intended recipient please notify the sender by reply email and 
immediately delete this email. Use, disclosure or reproduction of this 
email by anyone other than the intended recipient(s) is strictly 
prohibited. No representation is made that this email or any attachments 
are free of viruses. Virus scanning is recommended and is the 
responsibility of the recipient.

---
https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial

RE: upside down world

[Peter Tandy]

But Tony, you are not in Australia, so you would still have an uphill
struggle to get there in the first place! 

And what are you all going to do when the next magnetic reversal occurs,
and N becomes S and vice versa?(I suppose you could just turn
the map upside down, or should that be, the right way up?).

Peter Tandy

-Original Message-
From: sundial-boun...@uni-koeln.de [mailto:sundial-boun...@uni-koeln.de]
On Behalf Of Tony Moss
Sent: 19 February 2011 08:55
To: sundial@uni-koeln.de
Subject: Re: upside down world

On 17/02/2011 23:06, Peter Mayer wrote:
> Hi Brent,
>
>   If you've not seen it before, you may enjoy the 'Universal 
> Corrective Map'  (pinched from: www.odt.org/southupmaps.htm)
>
> best wishes,
>
> Peter
>

Hi Peter,
  I do like that concept, especially because it would make 
trips from Australia to the UK easier because it would be all down hill.

;-)

Tony M.

---
https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial

---
https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial