Re: Sad Story
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Somebody in the thread at some point said: | Yeah, If I were going to file it a ticket, it would be this: 'Make | Openmoko work all the time, in all these scenarios'. I'm sure my ticket Well, every day I have to figure out what to spend time on, if you aren't talking about specific issues you are having zero impact on my choices. Unless you just like to maintain having something to complain about, that isn't helping you. | See, if everything you have made until now were fixed immediately, the If you stop and think about the opportunity represented by being able to talk direct to the guy who has some control over hardware, bootloader and kernel choices in Openmoko, are you sure that the general handwaving complaining you have fallen back on is the best chance to solve whatever it is that is bothering you? - -Andy -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAklCLqgACgkQOjLpvpq7dMoBwwCbBg0YHnPTTQAR8KhV8smRJphC Rt8AoIkVynqewojbNnhjIKWwWs2N5Y+5 =R2r7 -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ support mailing list support@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/support
Re: Sad Story
My experience, as I'm sure with many other people, with my freerunner has been frustrating most of the time. To say, its all on the user is wrong. Granted the community could be better, however, its hard to contribute when everything is so fragmented. For instance, about the echo problem, one of the developers for OpenMoko stated "Since there are different hw versions out there (a5, a6, a7), it's impossible to provide one alsa state file that suits all models." Wait a sec. If the developers know the issues, What's preventing the if statement that would prevent hundreds of hours of tweaking, testing, and frustration for the community? Let's be honest here FIC is making a pretty penny off of OpenMoko, using very old hardware selling at a premium price (2.5g not even EDGE). Yet we are OK with that. What the community DOES expect is basic support, for starters a phone that makes calls without echoing, doesn't drop connection and sends and receives text messages reliably as the Number 1 priority. If I'm not mistaken, the majority of the working code in OpenMoko is from Trolltech. In addition FSO has a very nice distro and the Freerunner isn't even its main device. Yet more than 1 year AFTER the release of the 1974, we still have MAJOR issues from a basic install of Om. Then we read stuff like this. "OM is moving more focus to gta03 now, so my current resource for qtopia is fairly limited." It becomes evident that FIC and Openmoko cares less about creating reliably working software then it does about moving products. (not blaming the developers here, they get pressure) Follow the next link and I think I've made my case. http://www.cafepress.com/openmoko_inc Now with that said, I will be posting online my howtos including scripts to make a kinda stable variant of FDOM soon. Been too busy reflashing my phone. On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 1:28 AM, Karthik Kumar wrote: > You should have fixed the GTA02 months back, when you released it. > Instead, you people are working on GTA03/Neo Whatever. It proves that > you don't care about the community, You just care about the bunch of > people who might want to buy your upcoming phones, who sponsor your own > selfish causes and suffer while you are working on GTA04. -- Paul Email - pault...@gmail.com There were moments when he looked on evil simply as a mode through which he could realize his conception of the beautiful. Oscar Wilde - The Picture of Dorian Gray ___ support mailing list support@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/support
Re: Sad Story
I clearly don't blame the developers here myself. I blame Openmoko's selfish management (probably it's board of directors or C*Os) for this. I am sure that a developer who talks back against this will just get fired/have to face bad consequences. What would be the best way to 'convince' or 'force' the management to change their decisions? Does anyone know a lawyer? -Karthik On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 11:23 PM, Paul wrote: > My experience, as I'm sure with many other people, with my freerunner > has been frustrating most of the time. To say, its all on the user is > wrong. Granted the community could be better, however, its hard to > contribute when everything is so fragmented. > > For instance, about the echo problem, one of the developers for > OpenMoko stated "Since there are different hw versions out there (a5, > a6, a7), it's impossible to provide one alsa state file that suits all > models." Wait a sec. If the developers know the issues, What's > preventing the if statement that would prevent hundreds of hours of > tweaking, testing, and frustration for the community? > > Let's be honest here FIC is making a pretty penny off of OpenMoko, > using very old hardware selling at a premium price (2.5g not even > EDGE). Yet we are OK with that. What the community DOES expect is > basic support, for starters a phone that makes calls without echoing, > doesn't drop connection and sends and receives text messages reliably > as the Number 1 priority. If I'm not mistaken, the majority of the > working code in OpenMoko is from Trolltech. In addition FSO has a > very nice distro and the Freerunner isn't even its main device. Yet > more than 1 year AFTER the release of the 1974, we still have MAJOR > issues from a basic install of Om. Then we read stuff like this. > > "OM is moving more focus to gta03 now, so my current resource for > qtopia is fairly limited." > > It becomes evident that FIC and Openmoko cares less about creating > reliably working software then it does about moving products. (not > blaming the developers here, they get pressure) Follow the next link > and I think I've made my case. > > http://www.cafepress.com/openmoko_inc > > Now with that said, I will be posting online my howtos including > scripts to make a kinda stable variant of FDOM soon. Been too busy > reflashing my phone. > > On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 1:28 AM, Karthik Kumar wrote: >> You should have fixed the GTA02 months back, when you released it. >> Instead, you people are working on GTA03/Neo Whatever. It proves that >> you don't care about the community, You just care about the bunch of >> people who might want to buy your upcoming phones, who sponsor your own >> selfish causes and suffer while you are working on GTA04. > > -- > Paul > Email - pault...@gmail.com > > There were moments when he looked on evil simply as a mode through > which he could realize his conception of the beautiful. > Oscar Wilde - The Picture of Dorian Gray > > ___ > support mailing list > support@lists.openmoko.org > https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/support > ___ support mailing list support@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/support
Re: Sad Story
NINJA-PIRATES! On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 7:54 PM, Karthik Kumar wrote: > I clearly don't blame the developers here myself. I blame Openmoko's > selfish management (probably it's board of directors or C*Os) for > this. I am sure that a developer who talks back against this will just > get fired/have to face bad consequences. > > What would be the best way to 'convince' or 'force' the management to > change their decisions? Does anyone know a lawyer? > > -Karthik > > On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 11:23 PM, Paul wrote: >> My experience, as I'm sure with many other people, with my freerunner >> has been frustrating most of the time. To say, its all on the user is >> wrong. Granted the community could be better, however, its hard to >> contribute when everything is so fragmented. >> >> For instance, about the echo problem, one of the developers for >> OpenMoko stated "Since there are different hw versions out there (a5, >> a6, a7), it's impossible to provide one alsa state file that suits all >> models." Wait a sec. If the developers know the issues, What's >> preventing the if statement that would prevent hundreds of hours of >> tweaking, testing, and frustration for the community? >> >> Let's be honest here FIC is making a pretty penny off of OpenMoko, >> using very old hardware selling at a premium price (2.5g not even >> EDGE). Yet we are OK with that. What the community DOES expect is >> basic support, for starters a phone that makes calls without echoing, >> doesn't drop connection and sends and receives text messages reliably >> as the Number 1 priority. If I'm not mistaken, the majority of the >> working code in OpenMoko is from Trolltech. In addition FSO has a >> very nice distro and the Freerunner isn't even its main device. Yet >> more than 1 year AFTER the release of the 1974, we still have MAJOR >> issues from a basic install of Om. Then we read stuff like this. >> >> "OM is moving more focus to gta03 now, so my current resource for >> qtopia is fairly limited." >> >> It becomes evident that FIC and Openmoko cares less about creating >> reliably working software then it does about moving products. (not >> blaming the developers here, they get pressure) Follow the next link >> and I think I've made my case. >> >> http://www.cafepress.com/openmoko_inc >> >> Now with that said, I will be posting online my howtos including >> scripts to make a kinda stable variant of FDOM soon. Been too busy >> reflashing my phone. >> >> On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 1:28 AM, Karthik Kumar >> wrote: >>> You should have fixed the GTA02 months back, when you released it. >>> Instead, you people are working on GTA03/Neo Whatever. It proves that >>> you don't care about the community, You just care about the bunch of >>> people who might want to buy your upcoming phones, who sponsor your own >>> selfish causes and suffer while you are working on GTA04. >> >> -- >> Paul >> Email - pault...@gmail.com >> >> There were moments when he looked on evil simply as a mode through >> which he could realize his conception of the beautiful. >> Oscar Wilde - The Picture of Dorian Gray >> >> ___ >> support mailing list >> support@lists.openmoko.org >> https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/support >> > > ___ > support mailing list > support@lists.openmoko.org > https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/support > ___ support mailing list support@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/support
Re: Sad Story
On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 11:54 AM, Karthik Kumar wrote: > I clearly don't blame the developers here myself. I blame Openmoko's > selfish management (probably it's board of directors or C*Os) for > this. I am sure that a developer who talks back against this will just > get fired/have to face bad consequences. > > What would be the best way to 'convince' or 'force' the management to > change their decisions? Does anyone know a lawyer? > > -Karthik > Opensource is about contributing for the greater good. If your contribution is to threaten legal action please do us all a favor and put your freerunner on ebay. Then go out and get one of the "free" phones given away by your local cell phone company. Angus ___ support mailing list support@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/support
Re: Sad Story
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Somebody in the thread at some point said: | For instance, about the echo problem, one of the developers for | OpenMoko stated "Since there are different hw versions out there (a5, | a6, a7), it's impossible to provide one alsa state file that suits all A7 -- yet to ship -- has this "big cap" mod to attack buzz issue, it impacts mic gain: I can imagine that's why this was told. Yes the magic files can be split by PCB rev (which is known to userspace)... but it's out of scope for me so you should take it up on Trac. Even on shipping devices I read people recommending different magic numbers to avoid echo though so I think it's probably down to you to move a slider the once until you are happy, awful imposition as that is. | as the Number 1 priority. If I'm not mistaken, the majority of the | working code in OpenMoko is from Trolltech. In addition FSO has a If you prefer Qtopia please use it :-) | very nice distro and the Freerunner isn't even its main device. Yet | more than 1 year AFTER the release of the 1974, we still have MAJOR 1973 | issues from a basic install of Om. Then we read stuff like this. | | "OM is moving more focus to gta03 now, so my current resource for | qtopia is fairly limited." As John Lee explained, and I knew to be so before he told from other readings anyway, this is a problem with nomenclature. He does not actually mean GTA03 hardware here but stuff that will apply to GTA02 along the lines GTA02 rootfs today applies to GTA01. | It becomes evident that FIC and Openmoko cares less about creating What's evident to me is there is a danger of so enjoying and wanting to prolong the "victim" status that opportunities to solve problems and move things forward are actively ignored. - -Andy -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAklCt0IACgkQOjLpvpq7dMp6RQCghMII6HrV+jtbePkJDN+mFRRX kZMAnjBPLcuEnoELTFkf//FKKUZ1Zdst =jcBP -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ support mailing list support@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/support
Re: Sad Story
I will say this: Open source is philanthrophy. Making money is alright. Using Open source to make money is acceptable. You see those EeePcs? It's Open source, people get what they pay for - hardware and software. Now, claiming that because 'it's Open source, we allow you to do what you want' is just lying, because what you really mean is 'it's not our priority, sucker'. Do you see Openmoko? It's Open source, but nobody delivered. My contribution is to make more people in the community see the truth that I saw. And when they participate, that is the only way your Openmoko management is going to see what is RIGHT. Do not use the open source as a red herring argument. -Karthik On Sat, Dec 13, 2008 at 12:33 AM, Angus Ainslie wrote: > On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 11:54 AM, Karthik Kumar > wrote: >> I clearly don't blame the developers here myself. I blame Openmoko's >> selfish management (probably it's board of directors or C*Os) for >> this. I am sure that a developer who talks back against this will just >> get fired/have to face bad consequences. >> >> What would be the best way to 'convince' or 'force' the management to >> change their decisions? Does anyone know a lawyer? >> >> -Karthik >> > > Opensource is about contributing for the greater good. If your > contribution is to threaten legal action please do us all a favor and > put your freerunner on ebay. Then go out and get one of the "free" > phones given away by your local cell phone company. > > Angus > > ___ > support mailing list > support@lists.openmoko.org > https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/support > ___ support mailing list support@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/support
Re: Sad Story
I agree with this whole thread of Openmoko's fatal mistake of moving on to GTA03 with GTA02 still being unstable and unusable as a primary phone. If GTA02 gets left behind in the dust without ever working properly, it doesn't say much for their company. If Openmoko feels the hardware of GTA02 is inadequate to even bother making it a stable phone, there should be some sort of recall and free replacement with a GTA03. $399 for a phone that never worked properly is pretty hard to swallow, and even harder to swallow when the company expects people to buy a new phone while blatantly ignoring that same community of users who have invested time and money in developing and testing their original phones. - Marcus Karthik Kumar wrote: > I clearly don't blame the developers here myself. I blame Openmoko's > selfish management (probably it's board of directors or C*Os) for > this. I am sure that a developer who talks back against this will just > get fired/have to face bad consequences. > > What would be the best way to 'convince' or 'force' the management to > change their decisions? Does anyone know a lawyer? > > -Karthik > > On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 11:23 PM, Paul wrote: > >> My experience, as I'm sure with many other people, with my freerunner >> has been frustrating most of the time. To say, its all on the user is >> wrong. Granted the community could be better, however, its hard to >> contribute when everything is so fragmented. >> >> For instance, about the echo problem, one of the developers for >> OpenMoko stated "Since there are different hw versions out there (a5, >> a6, a7), it's impossible to provide one alsa state file that suits all >> models." Wait a sec. If the developers know the issues, What's >> preventing the if statement that would prevent hundreds of hours of >> tweaking, testing, and frustration for the community? >> >> Let's be honest here FIC is making a pretty penny off of OpenMoko, >> using very old hardware selling at a premium price (2.5g not even >> EDGE). Yet we are OK with that. What the community DOES expect is >> basic support, for starters a phone that makes calls without echoing, >> doesn't drop connection and sends and receives text messages reliably >> as the Number 1 priority. If I'm not mistaken, the majority of the >> working code in OpenMoko is from Trolltech. In addition FSO has a >> very nice distro and the Freerunner isn't even its main device. Yet >> more than 1 year AFTER the release of the 1974, we still have MAJOR >> issues from a basic install of Om. Then we read stuff like this. >> >> "OM is moving more focus to gta03 now, so my current resource for >> qtopia is fairly limited." >> >> It becomes evident that FIC and Openmoko cares less about creating >> reliably working software then it does about moving products. (not >> blaming the developers here, they get pressure) Follow the next link >> and I think I've made my case. >> >> http://www.cafepress.com/openmoko_inc >> >> Now with that said, I will be posting online my howtos including >> scripts to make a kinda stable variant of FDOM soon. Been too busy >> reflashing my phone. >> >> On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 1:28 AM, Karthik Kumar >> wrote: >> >>> You should have fixed the GTA02 months back, when you released it. >>> Instead, you people are working on GTA03/Neo Whatever. It proves that >>> you don't care about the community, You just care about the bunch of >>> people who might want to buy your upcoming phones, who sponsor your own >>> selfish causes and suffer while you are working on GTA04. >>> >> -- >> Paul >> Email - pault...@gmail.com >> >> There were moments when he looked on evil simply as a mode through >> which he could realize his conception of the beautiful. >> Oscar Wilde - The Picture of Dorian Gray >> >> ___ >> support mailing list >> support@lists.openmoko.org >> https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/support >> >> > > ___ > support mailing list > support@lists.openmoko.org > https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/support > > ___ support mailing list support@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/support
Re: Sad Story
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Somebody in the thread at some point said: | I clearly don't blame the developers here myself. I blame Openmoko's | selfish management (probably it's board of directors or C*Os) for | this. I am sure that a developer who talks back against this will just | get fired/have to face bad consequences. | | What would be the best way to 'convince' or 'force' the management to | change their decisions? Does anyone know a lawyer? You should first form a list of what issues you have that can be fixed. ~ You'll need it for your lawyer, right? By an amazing coincidence, that list of actual issues is what the support mailing list is for. - -Andy -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAklCuC8ACgkQOjLpvpq7dMpp/wCePEA7pXlQ1xIuMRm2aMVza6c5 4WkAmQHCXELZ+FcHULksEI8NY8PB0raM =4gJf -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ support mailing list support@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/support
Re: Sad Story
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Somebody in the thread at some point said: | I agree with this whole thread of Openmoko's fatal mistake of moving on | to GTA03 with GTA02 still being unstable and unusable as a primary | phone. If GTA02 gets left behind in the dust without ever working There a great deal of work ongoing for GTA02 right now. I know I am spending more than half my time on it the last month. Sharing your opinion that IF $THING_THAT_ISNT_TRUE "then it would be bad" is just wasting everyone's time. - -Andy -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAklCuTwACgkQOjLpvpq7dMoe0ACbBjE3BhdHDk701/5+AEBPr2lE SnAAnjtDCgyA1wradZ+ColeQsGTZpB4p =xPUv -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ support mailing list support@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/support
Re: Sad Story
Ah! legal recourse is certainly not the right path! I have long stayed out of this discussion as it's mostly been trolling about OpenMoko, but to be honest making a phone is hard... I've personally worked on projects involving building consumer electronics devices. We had far less success compared to the OM project, and there were signifcantly more people on the team. In my opinion what Openmoko needs to do is release a solid hardware platform, until this happens software development will be delayed. If that means concentrating on the v03, then do it. From what I see the v03 looks like the v02, with a different SoC and minus the smedia (glamo) controller. What I was hoping from the v03 was a new SoC, modem, and sound card. More time is being spent on miniaturization. This is not the community that cares about how the phone looks. Additionally, don't wait another 8 months before selling v03s, we want it soon, or fix the v02. Regarding what OM has done right: They released an awesome development platform for the gsm networks. What I want from FR now: I want someone from FR (steve mosher? sean moss?) to post updates and a timeline. I want them to say when things will be fixed, what exact developments are going on at OM, etc... This has to be on a regular basis. They -need- a blog or a similar method to publish this. At least it would give us some small bit of confidence that our devices are being worked on. Right now the only development I see is: -mickey on FSO, he publishes a lot data, wwe can get ahold of him -some minor work on the kernel. Get steve mosher (pr) somewhere available. we want transparency.. On 12/12/08, Karthik Kumar wrote: > I clearly don't blame the developers here myself. I blame Openmoko's > selfish management (probably it's board of directors or C*Os) for > this. I am sure that a developer who talks back against this will just > get fired/have to face bad consequences. > > What would be the best way to 'convince' or 'force' the management to > change their decisions? Does anyone know a lawyer? > > > -Karthik > > > On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 11:23 PM, Paul wrote: > > My experience, as I'm sure with many other people, with my freerunner > > has been frustrating most of the time. To say, its all on the user is > > wrong. Granted the community could be better, however, its hard to > > contribute when everything is so fragmented. > > > > For instance, about the echo problem, one of the developers for > > OpenMoko stated "Since there are different hw versions out there (a5, > > a6, a7), it's impossible to provide one alsa state file that suits all > > models." Wait a sec. If the developers know the issues, What's > > preventing the if statement that would prevent hundreds of hours of > > tweaking, testing, and frustration for the community? > > > > Let's be honest here FIC is making a pretty penny off of OpenMoko, > > using very old hardware selling at a premium price (2.5g not even > > EDGE). Yet we are OK with that. What the community DOES expect is > > basic support, for starters a phone that makes calls without echoing, > > doesn't drop connection and sends and receives text messages reliably > > as the Number 1 priority. If I'm not mistaken, the majority of the > > working code in OpenMoko is from Trolltech. In addition FSO has a > > very nice distro and the Freerunner isn't even its main device. Yet > > more than 1 year AFTER the release of the 1974, we still have MAJOR > > issues from a basic install of Om. Then we read stuff like this. > > > > "OM is moving more focus to gta03 now, so my current resource for > > qtopia is fairly limited." > > > > It becomes evident that FIC and Openmoko cares less about creating > > reliably working software then it does about moving products. (not > > blaming the developers here, they get pressure) Follow the next link > > and I think I've made my case. > > > > http://www.cafepress.com/openmoko_inc > > > > Now with that said, I will be posting online my howtos including > > scripts to make a kinda stable variant of FDOM soon. Been too busy > > reflashing my phone. > > > > On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 1:28 AM, Karthik Kumar > wrote: > >> You should have fixed the GTA02 months back, when you released it. > >> Instead, you people are working on GTA03/Neo Whatever. It proves that > >> you don't care about the community, You just care about the bunch of > >> people who might want to buy your upcoming phones, who sponsor your own > >> selfish causes and suffer while you are working on GTA04. > > > > -- > > Paul > > Email - pault...@gmail.com > > > > There were moments when he looked on evil simply as a mode through > > which he could realize his conception of the beautiful. > > Oscar Wilde - The Picture of Dorian Gray > > > > ___ > > support mailing list > > support@lists.openmoko.org > > https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/su
Re: Sad Story
The website of Openmoko's launch will tell you when the Openmoko Freerunner was released. My bills will tell you when I have purchased the Freerunner. My Freerunner is available to prove the bugs in it. As for the list of Bugs, I'll just take the list from the Trac you have set up, with details of when 'each and every bug' was filed and resolved/never resolved. And, I have YOUR statement which proves that till date, many of those issues still exist. Do you want more proof? Do you want more legal documents? Is this how you see this conversation heading to? On Sat, Dec 13, 2008 at 12:44 AM, Andy Green wrote: > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- > Hash: SHA1 > > Somebody in the thread at some point said: > > | I clearly don't blame the developers here myself. I blame Openmoko's > | selfish management (probably it's board of directors or C*Os) for > | this. I am sure that a developer who talks back against this will just > | get fired/have to face bad consequences. > | > | What would be the best way to 'convince' or 'force' the management to > | change their decisions? Does anyone know a lawyer? > > You should first form a list of what issues you have that can be fixed. > ~ You'll need it for your lawyer, right? > > By an amazing coincidence, that list of actual issues is what the > support mailing list is for. > > - -Andy > -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) > Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org > > iEYEARECAAYFAklCuC8ACgkQOjLpvpq7dMpp/wCePEA7pXlQ1xIuMRm2aMVza6c5 > 4WkAmQHCXELZ+FcHULksEI8NY8PB0raM > =4gJf > -END PGP SIGNATURE- > > ___ > support mailing list > support@lists.openmoko.org > https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/support > -- Karthik http://guilt.bafsoft.net ___ support mailing list support@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/support
Re: Sad Story
> In my opinion what Openmoko needs to do is release a solid hardware > platform, until this happens software development will be delayed. If > that means concentrating on the v03, then do it. From what I see the > v03 looks like the v02, with a different SoC and minus the smedia > (glamo) controller. (I agree with your comment below) See, then it means all those who bought the 02 (perhaps the 01) are stuck with lemons. I'd rather appreciate it if Openmoko used our money to fix our own Openmoko 02s to something more reliable (02.5, perhaps). That is when I will trust Openmoko to buy/recommend a 03 at all. Now, If the 03 turns out to be another lemon, why would I expect a 04 to fix it when I very well know that they didn't fix 02? > > What I was hoping from the v03 was a new SoC, modem, and sound card. > More time is being spent on miniaturization. This is not the community > that cares about how the phone looks. > > Additionally, don't wait another 8 months before selling v03s, we want > it soon, or fix the v02. That is well said, I agree. > > Regarding what OM has done right: > They released an awesome development platform for the gsm networks. > > What I want from FR now: > I want someone from FR (steve mosher? sean moss?) to post updates and > a timeline. I want them to say when things will be fixed, what exact > developments are going on at OM, etc... This has to be on a regular > basis. They -need- a blog or a similar method to publish this. At > least it would give us some small bit of confidence that our devices > are being worked on. Right now the only development I see is: > -mickey on FSO, he publishes a lot data, wwe can get ahold of him > -some minor work on the kernel. > > Get steve mosher (pr) somewhere available. we want transparency.. > I'd like this to happen personally. > > On 12/12/08, Karthik Kumar wrote: >> I clearly don't blame the developers here myself. I blame Openmoko's >> selfish management (probably it's board of directors or C*Os) for >> this. I am sure that a developer who talks back against this will just >> get fired/have to face bad consequences. >> >> What would be the best way to 'convince' or 'force' the management to >> change their decisions? Does anyone know a lawyer? >> >> >> -Karthik >> >> >> On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 11:23 PM, Paul wrote: >> > My experience, as I'm sure with many other people, with my freerunner >> > has been frustrating most of the time. To say, its all on the user is >> > wrong. Granted the community could be better, however, its hard to >> > contribute when everything is so fragmented. >> > >> > For instance, about the echo problem, one of the developers for >> > OpenMoko stated "Since there are different hw versions out there (a5, >> > a6, a7), it's impossible to provide one alsa state file that suits all >> > models." Wait a sec. If the developers know the issues, What's >> > preventing the if statement that would prevent hundreds of hours of >> > tweaking, testing, and frustration for the community? >> > >> > Let's be honest here FIC is making a pretty penny off of OpenMoko, >> > using very old hardware selling at a premium price (2.5g not even >> > EDGE). Yet we are OK with that. What the community DOES expect is >> > basic support, for starters a phone that makes calls without echoing, >> > doesn't drop connection and sends and receives text messages reliably >> > as the Number 1 priority. If I'm not mistaken, the majority of the >> > working code in OpenMoko is from Trolltech. In addition FSO has a >> > very nice distro and the Freerunner isn't even its main device. Yet >> > more than 1 year AFTER the release of the 1974, we still have MAJOR >> > issues from a basic install of Om. Then we read stuff like this. >> > >> > "OM is moving more focus to gta03 now, so my current resource for >> > qtopia is fairly limited." >> > >> > It becomes evident that FIC and Openmoko cares less about creating >> > reliably working software then it does about moving products. (not >> > blaming the developers here, they get pressure) Follow the next link >> > and I think I've made my case. >> > >> > http://www.cafepress.com/openmoko_inc >> > >> > Now with that said, I will be posting online my howtos including >> > scripts to make a kinda stable variant of FDOM soon. Been too busy >> > reflashing my phone. >> > >> > On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 1:28 AM, Karthik Kumar >> wrote: >> >> You should have fixed the GTA02 months back, when you released it. >> >> Instead, you people are working on GTA03/Neo Whatever. It proves that >> >> you don't care about the community, You just care about the bunch of >> >> people who might want to buy your upcoming phones, who sponsor your own >> >> selfish causes and suffer while you are working on GTA04. >> > >> > -- >> > Paul >> > Email - pault...@gmail.com >> > >> > There were moments when he looked on evil simply as a mode through >> > which he could real
Re: Sad Story
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Somebody in the thread at some point said: | The website of Openmoko's launch will tell you when the Openmoko | Freerunner was released. | My bills will tell you when I have purchased the Freerunner. | My Freerunner is available to prove the bugs in it. | As for the list of Bugs, I'll just take the list from the Trac you | have set up, with details of when 'each and every bug' was filed and | resolved/never resolved. | | And, I have YOUR statement which proves that till date, many of those | issues still exist. Did someone from Openmoko tell you that GTA02 (unlike Windows, Mozilla, $EVERYTHING_NONTRIVIAL) will have no bugs? | | What would be the best way to 'convince' or 'force' the management to | | change their decisions? Does anyone know a lawyer? | Do you want more proof? Do you want more legal documents? Is this how | you see this conversation heading to? Yeah some guy mentioned a lawyer? Oh: you. - -Andy -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEUEARECAAYFAklCu/0ACgkQOjLpvpq7dMpIFACeJfstMwX1cIaJx5vMxVvmfk0V UmEAl17Z8/DccphXNamTkfoiXLpyJ/c= =jW0L -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ support mailing list support@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/support
Re: Sad Story
On Sat, Dec 13, 2008 at 1:01 AM, Andy Green wrote: > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- > Hash: SHA1 > > Somebody in the thread at some point said: > | The website of Openmoko's launch will tell you when the Openmoko > | Freerunner was released. > | My bills will tell you when I have purchased the Freerunner. > | My Freerunner is available to prove the bugs in it. > | As for the list of Bugs, I'll just take the list from the Trac you > | have set up, with details of when 'each and every bug' was filed and > | resolved/never resolved. > | > | And, I have YOUR statement which proves that till date, many of those > | issues still exist. > > Did someone from Openmoko tell you that GTA02 (unlike Windows, Mozilla, > $EVERYTHING_NONTRIVIAL) will have no bugs? > You're talking of the case where everything that doesn't work is a bug. But that everything that works in Openmoko doesn't constitute what a 'Phone' is. Hence, either you've sold a bug, or you've sold something that isn't a Phone. Didn't someone from Openmoko say that it's a phone? Oh, by the way, wasn't there a legal document that said that if you were to buy it and it had bugs, you wouldn't sue because you are doing so at your own risk? I think not. And, do you think that people get off the hook for shipping products with major bugs? (If you recall Intel's processor bug or nVIDIA's heating problem, it should prove you otherwise) I'm done talking to you, Andy. If you have anything to say that isn't Openmoko's selfishness, I'm going to listen to you. > | | What would be the best way to 'convince' or 'force' the management to > | | change their decisions? Does anyone know a lawyer? > > | Do you want more proof? Do you want more legal documents? Is this how > | you see this conversation heading to? > > Yeah some guy mentioned a lawyer? Oh: you. > > - -Andy -- Karthik ___ support mailing list support@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/support
Re: Sad Story
2008/12/12 Karthik Kumar : > I will say this: Open source is philanthrophy. Making money is > alright. Using Open source to make money is acceptable. > > You see those EeePcs? It's Open source, people get what they pay for - > hardware and software. > > You see that door? Close it on the way out ;) Seriously though this is getting a bit tedious now. Why didn't you do some more research before spending your money? There are many people on IRC who would have given you honest advice. Do you believe all marketing that you read? I personally did not buy a GTA02 as I have a GTA01 and I am waiting for a suitable replacement. That might be GTA03, GTA04 or even GTA05 who knows. It does take time to get things right in the mobile world. You are just lucky/unlucky to have had so much information about the process. As others have said there are plenty of "shiny" alternatives out there. I can understand your frustration but I think you are overreacting somewhat. We all make mistakes (said the dalek getting off the dustbin). Let's all just kiss and make up! John. ___ support mailing list support@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/support
Re: Sad Story
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Somebody in the thread at some point said: | I'm done talking to you, Andy. If you have anything to say that isn't | Openmoko's selfishness, I'm going to listen to you. Fine: please post back on the support list when you have some specific support issues you want to resolve, rather than stroke your ego. - -Andy -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAklCwJgACgkQOjLpvpq7dMoSfgCeIfV2LIAr7PID/SHPkYZH2Jqo VokAn1nvzwVdeq70lRYTanffzio+BflY =AWKS -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ support mailing list support@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/support
Re: Sad Story
On Sat, Dec 13, 2008 at 1:15 AM, john wrote: > 2008/12/12 Karthik Kumar : >> I will say this: Open source is philanthrophy. Making money is >> alright. Using Open source to make money is acceptable. >> >> You see those EeePcs? It's Open source, people get what they pay for - >> hardware and software. >> >> > > You see that door? Close it on the way out ;) > > Seriously though this is getting a bit tedious now. Why didn't you do > some more research before spending your money? There are many people > on IRC who would have given you honest advice. Do you believe all > marketing that you read? I personally did not buy a GTA02 as I have a > GTA01 and I am waiting for a suitable replacement. That might be > GTA03, GTA04 or even GTA05 who knows. It does take time to get things > right in the mobile world. You are just lucky/unlucky to have had so > much information about the process. As others have said there are > plenty of "shiny" alternatives out there. I can understand your > frustration but I think you are overreacting somewhat. We all make > mistakes (said the dalek getting off the dustbin). Let's all just kiss > and make up! > Well. You learnt your lessons with the 01. I, with the 02. I don't know, but I will want nobody to face this harshness when they will buy the 03. See, although nobody is perfect, people should try to correct your mistakes. Else, they are just going on the wrong path. Openmoko didn't learn from it's mistakes in 01. It isn't going to learn by just selling 02, 03 and so on. If it fixes it's 01 and 02, then people like you and me can be happier. If the entire 01 was a design mistake, then they clearly didn't sell you a phone at all. They sold you a phony. It's time you asked them for a fix. The only way to make it learn is to make it stop, fix all the things they have done till now. Else, there are going to be more people cribbing like this one year later. Watch out for my prediction. And, the only way to prevent it is if Openmoko did something about that RIGHT NOW. My $0.02. > John. > > ___ > support mailing list > support@lists.openmoko.org > https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/support > -- Karthik ___ support mailing list support@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/support
Re: Sad Story
A quick thought...if Openmoko feels the hardware of GTA02 is inadequate to even bother making it a stable phone, should there not be some sort of recall and free replacement with a GTA03. $399 for a phone that never worked properly is pretty hard to swallow, and even harder to swallow when the company expects people to buy a new phone while somewhat ignoring that same community of users who have invested time and money in developing and testing their original phones. Speaking from the perspective of a web developer, if I make a piece of shit site that doesn't work properly, my clients are going to demand that it works properly. If I neglect to do that and move on to the next project, I would run out of clients pretty fast... - Marcus ___ support mailing list support@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/support
Re: Sad Story
> A quick thought...if Openmoko feels the hardware of GTA02 is inadequate > to > even bother making it a stable phone, should there not be some sort of what is so hard in actually reading answers instead of repeating the same wrong statement over an dover? it has been stated several times already that the "gta03" you constantly keep refering to, does _NOT_ mean the actual gta03 _HARDWARE_? please, do us all a favour and check the answers in this thread and the mail of john's before beating that death horse again ... ___ support mailing list support@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/support
Re: Sad Story
Paul, > Let's be honest here FIC is making a pretty penny off of OpenMoko, > using very old hardware selling at a premium price (2.5g not even > EDGE). Yet we are OK with that. If you don't know you shouldn't pretend to know. I applaud the brave investors we have, we have a long way to go to make this an interesting investment for them, compared to many other places they could put their money. Luckily there are many people that enjoy this project so much and contribute that I am optimistic we can show them the true power of our community, over time. > "OM is moving more focus to gta03 now, so my current resource for > qtopia is fairly limited." I believe this was John. Taken out of context, and you are exploiting slight weaknesses in his usage of English. I regularly see John in the office until 2 or 3 AM, working for the project he loves. He said 'more' focus, because although he spends 100% of his time developing on gta02, he also wants to start learning more about gta03 now, join some product meetings, etc. That's it. He continues to work on gta02 full time. > and I think I've made my case. > http://www.cafepress.com/openmoko_inc Steve and Sean did this during the weekend... BTW, 100% of the profits will go towards our bounties for Free Software developers. Wolfgang On 2008-12-13, at 上午1:53, Paul wrote: > My experience, as I'm sure with many other people, with my freerunner > has been frustrating most of the time. To say, its all on the user is > wrong. Granted the community could be better, however, its hard to > contribute when everything is so fragmented. > > For instance, about the echo problem, one of the developers for > OpenMoko stated "Since there are different hw versions out there (a5, > a6, a7), it's impossible to provide one alsa state file that suits all > models." Wait a sec. If the developers know the issues, What's > preventing the if statement that would prevent hundreds of hours of > tweaking, testing, and frustration for the community? > > Let's be honest here FIC is making a pretty penny off of OpenMoko, > using very old hardware selling at a premium price (2.5g not even > EDGE). Yet we are OK with that. What the community DOES expect is > basic support, for starters a phone that makes calls without echoing, > doesn't drop connection and sends and receives text messages reliably > as the Number 1 priority. If I'm not mistaken, the majority of the > working code in OpenMoko is from Trolltech. In addition FSO has a > very nice distro and the Freerunner isn't even its main device. Yet > more than 1 year AFTER the release of the 1974, we still have MAJOR > issues from a basic install of Om. Then we read stuff like this. > > "OM is moving more focus to gta03 now, so my current resource for > qtopia is fairly limited." > > It becomes evident that FIC and Openmoko cares less about creating > reliably working software then it does about moving products. (not > blaming the developers here, they get pressure) Follow the next link > and I think I've made my case. > > http://www.cafepress.com/openmoko_inc > > Now with that said, I will be posting online my howtos including > scripts to make a kinda stable variant of FDOM soon. Been too busy > reflashing my phone. > > On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 1:28 AM, Karthik Kumar > wrote: >> You should have fixed the GTA02 months back, when you released it. >> Instead, you people are working on GTA03/Neo Whatever. It proves that >> you don't care about the community, You just care about the bunch of >> people who might want to buy your upcoming phones, who sponsor >> your own >> selfish causes and suffer while you are working on GTA04. > > -- > Paul > Email - pault...@gmail.com > > There were moments when he looked on evil simply as a mode through > which he could realize his conception of the beautiful. > Oscar Wilde - The Picture of Dorian Gray > > ___ > support mailing list > support@lists.openmoko.org > https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/support ___ support mailing list support@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/support
Re: Sad Story
On Sat, Dec 13, 2008 at 1:31 AM, Marcus Stong wrote: > A quick thought...if Openmoko feels the hardware of GTA02 is inadequate to > even bother making it a stable phone, should there not be some sort of > recall and free replacement with a GTA03. > $399 for a phone that never worked properly is pretty hard to swallow, and > even harder to swallow when the company expects people to buy a new phone > while somewhat ignoring that same community of users who have invested time > and money in developing and testing their original phones. Speaking from the > perspective of a web developer, if I make a piece of shit site that doesn't > work properly, my clients are going to demand that it works properly. If I > neglect to do that and move on to the next project, I would run out of > clients pretty fast... Sounds good to me. I'm happy if it works. > > - Marcus > ___ > support mailing list > support@lists.openmoko.org > https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/support > > -- Karthik http://guilt.bafsoft.net ___ support mailing list support@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/support
Re: Sad Story
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Somebody in the thread at some point said: | A quick thought...if Openmoko feels the hardware of GTA02 is inadequate | to even bother making it a stable phone, should there not be some sort | of recall and free replacement with a GTA03. Yes. That thought is still just as pointless a waste of time as the first time you posted it 47 minutes before on the support mailing list. - -Andy -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Fedora - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAklCxFwACgkQOjLpvpq7dMqHQgCfSwVz4ocy8biTpwOHOyJC6+tC db4AnjmtIRX7/fE2NJWOUJMGh3q3g1kc =NDKB -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ support mailing list support@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/support
Re: Sad Story
Karthik, > this. I am sure that a developer who talks back against this will just > get fired/have to face bad consequences. Honestly, together with pretty much everything else you say, it's wrong. In fact internally I am known as the one who kicks people if they don't post publicly :-) Your problem is that pretty much everybody already does what you think they should do, so no matter how long you wait, you won't see the kind of complaint like "bad management forces us to work on next- gen product to rip off community". GTA01, GTA02 and GTA03 are very close, basically one platform. The few people who work on gta03 hardware (2 to be precise) implicitly contribute to the whole platform. The vast majority works on gta02 and gta01. Actually I am thinking about trying to buy some gta01 back from the community. They are quite legendary and we have too few internally. 2 in Taipei, for example. We wish we could do more testing & bug-fixing on gta01. It's the same platform anyway, and in addition we can support our customers. > What would be the best way to 'convince' or 'force' the management to > change their decisions? Does anyone know a lawyer? Show me opportunities. Management needs to direct the company towards opportunities. Best Regards, Wolfgang On 2008-12-13, at 上午2:54, Karthik Kumar wrote: > I clearly don't blame the developers here myself. I blame Openmoko's > selfish management (probably it's board of directors or C*Os) for > this. I am sure that a developer who talks back against this will just > get fired/have to face bad consequences. > > What would be the best way to 'convince' or 'force' the management to > change their decisions? Does anyone know a lawyer? > > -Karthik > > On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 11:23 PM, Paul wrote: >> My experience, as I'm sure with many other people, with my freerunner >> has been frustrating most of the time. To say, its all on the >> user is >> wrong. Granted the community could be better, however, its hard to >> contribute when everything is so fragmented. >> >> For instance, about the echo problem, one of the developers for >> OpenMoko stated "Since there are different hw versions out there (a5, >> a6, a7), it's impossible to provide one alsa state file that suits >> all >> models." Wait a sec. If the developers know the issues, What's >> preventing the if statement that would prevent hundreds of hours of >> tweaking, testing, and frustration for the community? >> >> Let's be honest here FIC is making a pretty penny off of OpenMoko, >> using very old hardware selling at a premium price (2.5g not even >> EDGE). Yet we are OK with that. What the community DOES expect is >> basic support, for starters a phone that makes calls without echoing, >> doesn't drop connection and sends and receives text messages reliably >> as the Number 1 priority. If I'm not mistaken, the majority of the >> working code in OpenMoko is from Trolltech. In addition FSO has a >> very nice distro and the Freerunner isn't even its main device. Yet >> more than 1 year AFTER the release of the 1974, we still have MAJOR >> issues from a basic install of Om. Then we read stuff like this. >> >> "OM is moving more focus to gta03 now, so my current resource for >> qtopia is fairly limited." >> >> It becomes evident that FIC and Openmoko cares less about creating >> reliably working software then it does about moving products. (not >> blaming the developers here, they get pressure) Follow the next link >> and I think I've made my case. >> >> http://www.cafepress.com/openmoko_inc >> >> Now with that said, I will be posting online my howtos including >> scripts to make a kinda stable variant of FDOM soon. Been too busy >> reflashing my phone. >> >> On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 1:28 AM, Karthik Kumar >> wrote: >>> You should have fixed the GTA02 months back, when you released it. >>> Instead, you people are working on GTA03/Neo Whatever. It proves >>> that >>> you don't care about the community, You just care about the bunch of >>> people who might want to buy your upcoming phones, who sponsor >>> your own >>> selfish causes and suffer while you are working on GTA04. >> >> -- >> Paul >> Email - pault...@gmail.com >> >> There were moments when he looked on evil simply as a mode through >> which he could realize his conception of the beautiful. >> Oscar Wilde - The Picture of Dorian Gray >> >> ___ >> support mailing list >> support@lists.openmoko.org >> https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/support >> > > ___ > support mailing list > support@lists.openmoko.org > https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/support ___ support mailing list support@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/support
Re: Sad Story
Wolfgang Spraul wrote: > Actually I am thinking about trying to buy some gta01 back > from the community. They are quite legendary and we have too few > internally. 2 in Taipei, for example. We wish we could do more > testing & bug-fixing on gta01. It's the same platform anyway, and in > addition we can support our customers. > What about the idea of offering a "trade-up" where people holding the 01s could tender them, and a few $$, for a fresher model? I have a GTA01 and it is a bit frustrating to be on the periphery of the development effort. But until I feel assured that the "GSM buzz" situation is rectified I've been hesitant to get an 02. I don't follow this list completely closely, so I hope I'm not out of line in my opinion that the 01 isn't really on the radar anymore in terms of development. Thanks. b. ___ support mailing list support@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/support
Re: Sad Story
Sargun, thanks, agree with you. > I want someone from FR (steve mosher? sean moss?) to post updates and > a timeline. I want them to say when things will be fixed, what exact > developments are going on at OM, etc... This has to be on a regular > basis. They -need- a blog or a similar method to publish this. At > least it would give us some small bit of confidence that our devices > are being worked on. Right now the only development I see is: > -mickey on FSO, he publishes a lot data, wwe can get ahold of him > -some minor work on the kernel. I used to publish weekly engineering news, but the last months saw so many changes that I got overwhelmed, didn't know how to put things in context appropriately. I hope this settles down soon and I can resume the news. Rest assured that there is _TONS_ of activity in Taipei and worldwide. I wrote about our software strategy briefly only a few days ago: http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2008-December/037352.html > -some minor work on the kernel. Huh? That must be the under-statement of the year. kernel progress has been phantastic recently. Andy's team, Balaji, Nelson, Sean, Werner, all have been doing great work on the .28 kernel. Actually it's possible this might be one of the best Linux kernels on any mobile device in the world, in terms of 100% openness, and how close it is to mainline. Hopefully this new kernel will soon make it's way into the FSO and other releases. Wolfgang On 2008-12-13, at 上午3:23, Sargun Dhillon wrote: > Ah! legal recourse is certainly not the right path! > > I have long stayed out of this discussion as it's mostly been trolling > about OpenMoko, but to be honest making a phone is hard... > I've personally worked on projects involving building consumer > electronics devices. We had far less success compared to the OM > project, and there were signifcantly more people on the team. > > In my opinion what Openmoko needs to do is release a solid hardware > platform, until this happens software development will be delayed. If > that means concentrating on the v03, then do it. From what I see the > v03 looks like the v02, with a different SoC and minus the smedia > (glamo) controller. > > What I was hoping from the v03 was a new SoC, modem, and sound card. > More time is being spent on miniaturization. This is not the community > that cares about how the phone looks. > > Additionally, don't wait another 8 months before selling v03s, we want > it soon, or fix the v02. > > Regarding what OM has done right: > They released an awesome development platform for the gsm networks. > > What I want from FR now: > I want someone from FR (steve mosher? sean moss?) to post updates and > a timeline. I want them to say when things will be fixed, what exact > developments are going on at OM, etc... This has to be on a regular > basis. They -need- a blog or a similar method to publish this. At > least it would give us some small bit of confidence that our devices > are being worked on. Right now the only development I see is: > -mickey on FSO, he publishes a lot data, wwe can get ahold of him > -some minor work on the kernel. > > Get steve mosher (pr) somewhere available. we want transparency.. > > > On 12/12/08, Karthik Kumar wrote: >> I clearly don't blame the developers here myself. I blame Openmoko's >> selfish management (probably it's board of directors or C*Os) for >> this. I am sure that a developer who talks back against this will >> just >> get fired/have to face bad consequences. >> >> What would be the best way to 'convince' or 'force' the >> management to >> change their decisions? Does anyone know a lawyer? >> >> >> -Karthik >> >> >> On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 11:23 PM, Paul wrote: >>> My experience, as I'm sure with many other people, with my >>> freerunner >>> has been frustrating most of the time. To say, its all on the >>> user is >>> wrong. Granted the community could be better, however, its hard to >>> contribute when everything is so fragmented. >>> >>> For instance, about the echo problem, one of the developers for >>> OpenMoko stated "Since there are different hw versions out there >>> (a5, >>> a6, a7), it's impossible to provide one alsa state file that >>> suits all >>> models." Wait a sec. If the developers know the issues, What's >>> preventing the if statement that would prevent hundreds of hours of >>> tweaking, testing, and frustration for the community? >>> >>> Let's be honest here FIC is making a pretty penny off of OpenMoko, >>> using very old hardware selling at a premium price (2.5g not even >>> EDGE). Yet we are OK with that. What the community DOES expect is >>> basic support, for starters a phone that makes calls without >>> echoing, >>> doesn't drop connection and sends and receives text messages >>> reliably >>> as the Number 1 priority. If I'm not mistaken, the majority of the >>> working code in OpenMoko is from Trolltech. In addition FSO has a >>> very nic
Re: Sad Story
Wolfgang, thanks for an actual credible, thoughtful response... Andy, do you actually work for openmoko? If you do, that is a very scary thought that someone from openmoko would be shooting their mouth off and disrespecting concerned members of the openmoko community, who are expressing valid frustrations... On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 3:13 PM, Wolfgang Spraul wrote: > Karthik, > > > this. I am sure that a developer who talks back against this will just > > get fired/have to face bad consequences. > > Honestly, together with pretty much everything else you say, it's wrong. > In fact internally I am known as the one who kicks people if they > don't post publicly :-) > Your problem is that pretty much everybody already does what you > think they should do, so no matter how long you wait, you won't see > the kind of complaint like "bad management forces us to work on next- > gen product to rip off community". > > GTA01, GTA02 and GTA03 are very close, basically one platform. The > few people who work on gta03 hardware (2 to be precise) implicitly > contribute to the whole platform. The vast majority works on gta02 > and gta01. Actually I am thinking about trying to buy some gta01 back > from the community. They are quite legendary and we have too few > internally. 2 in Taipei, for example. We wish we could do more > testing & bug-fixing on gta01. It's the same platform anyway, and in > addition we can support our customers. > > > What would be the best way to 'convince' or 'force' the management to > > change their decisions? Does anyone know a lawyer? > > Show me opportunities. Management needs to direct the company towards > opportunities. > > Best Regards, > Wolfgang > > On 2008-12-13, at 上午2:54, Karthik Kumar wrote: > > > I clearly don't blame the developers here myself. I blame Openmoko's > > selfish management (probably it's board of directors or C*Os) for > > this. I am sure that a developer who talks back against this will just > > get fired/have to face bad consequences. > > > > What would be the best way to 'convince' or 'force' the management to > > change their decisions? Does anyone know a lawyer? > > > > -Karthik > > > > On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 11:23 PM, Paul wrote: > >> My experience, as I'm sure with many other people, with my freerunner > >> has been frustrating most of the time. To say, its all on the > >> user is > >> wrong. Granted the community could be better, however, its hard to > >> contribute when everything is so fragmented. > >> > >> For instance, about the echo problem, one of the developers for > >> OpenMoko stated "Since there are different hw versions out there (a5, > >> a6, a7), it's impossible to provide one alsa state file that suits > >> all > >> models." Wait a sec. If the developers know the issues, What's > >> preventing the if statement that would prevent hundreds of hours of > >> tweaking, testing, and frustration for the community? > >> > >> Let's be honest here FIC is making a pretty penny off of OpenMoko, > >> using very old hardware selling at a premium price (2.5g not even > >> EDGE). Yet we are OK with that. What the community DOES expect is > >> basic support, for starters a phone that makes calls without echoing, > >> doesn't drop connection and sends and receives text messages reliably > >> as the Number 1 priority. If I'm not mistaken, the majority of the > >> working code in OpenMoko is from Trolltech. In addition FSO has a > >> very nice distro and the Freerunner isn't even its main device. Yet > >> more than 1 year AFTER the release of the 1974, we still have MAJOR > >> issues from a basic install of Om. Then we read stuff like this. > >> > >> "OM is moving more focus to gta03 now, so my current resource for > >> qtopia is fairly limited." > >> > >> It becomes evident that FIC and Openmoko cares less about creating > >> reliably working software then it does about moving products. (not > >> blaming the developers here, they get pressure) Follow the next link > >> and I think I've made my case. > >> > >> http://www.cafepress.com/openmoko_inc > >> > >> Now with that said, I will be posting online my howtos including > >> scripts to make a kinda stable variant of FDOM soon. Been too busy > >> reflashing my phone. > >> > >> On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 1:28 AM, Karthik Kumar > >> wrote: > >>> You should have fixed the GTA02 months back, when you released it. > >>> Instead, you people are working on GTA03/Neo Whatever. It proves > >>> that > >>> you don't care about the community, You just care about the bunch of > >>> people who might want to buy your upcoming phones, who sponsor > >>> your own > >>> selfish causes and suffer while you are working on GTA04. > >> > >> -- > >> Paul > >> Email - pault...@gmail.com > >> > >> There were moments when he looked on evil simply as a mode through > >> which he could realize his conception of the beautiful. > >> Oscar Wilde - The Picture of Dorian Gray > >> > >> ___ > >>
Re: Sad Story
Here is a suggestion: If the GPS hardwarer in GTA02 is wrong, would Openmoko consider fixing it for all those who purchased Openmoko? They should ship back the Freerunner, fix it and send it back to all owners. And, (P.S. arne akka) here is a PDF which tells us about some different better GPS hardware in GTA03: http://downloads.openmoko.org/foresight/Test_Report/GTA03_GPS_Conductive_Single_Channel_Test.pdf I would like Openmoko to fix this one hardware issue in GTA02 (How you work it out, I will leave it to you). It could do the same for some GTA01 owners with problems as well. On Sat, Dec 13, 2008 at 1:43 AM, Wolfgang Spraul wrote: > Karthik, > >> this. I am sure that a developer who talks back against this will just >> get fired/have to face bad consequences. > > Honestly, together with pretty much everything else you say, it's wrong. > In fact internally I am known as the one who kicks people if they > don't post publicly :-) > Your problem is that pretty much everybody already does what you > think they should do, so no matter how long you wait, you won't see > the kind of complaint like "bad management forces us to work on next- > gen product to rip off community". > > GTA01, GTA02 and GTA03 are very close, basically one platform. The > few people who work on gta03 hardware (2 to be precise) implicitly > contribute to the whole platform. The vast majority works on gta02 > and gta01. Actually I am thinking about trying to buy some gta01 back > from the community. They are quite legendary and we have too few > internally. 2 in Taipei, for example. We wish we could do more > testing & bug-fixing on gta01. It's the same platform anyway, and in > addition we can support our customers. > >> What would be the best way to 'convince' or 'force' the management to >> change their decisions? Does anyone know a lawyer? > > Show me opportunities. Management needs to direct the company towards > opportunities. > > Best Regards, > Wolfgang > > On 2008-12-13, at 上午2:54, Karthik Kumar wrote: > >> I clearly don't blame the developers here myself. I blame Openmoko's >> selfish management (probably it's board of directors or C*Os) for >> this. I am sure that a developer who talks back against this will just >> get fired/have to face bad consequences. >> >> What would be the best way to 'convince' or 'force' the management to >> change their decisions? Does anyone know a lawyer? >> >> -Karthik >> >> On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 11:23 PM, Paul wrote: >>> My experience, as I'm sure with many other people, with my freerunner >>> has been frustrating most of the time. To say, its all on the >>> user is >>> wrong. Granted the community could be better, however, its hard to >>> contribute when everything is so fragmented. >>> >>> For instance, about the echo problem, one of the developers for >>> OpenMoko stated "Since there are different hw versions out there (a5, >>> a6, a7), it's impossible to provide one alsa state file that suits >>> all >>> models." Wait a sec. If the developers know the issues, What's >>> preventing the if statement that would prevent hundreds of hours of >>> tweaking, testing, and frustration for the community? >>> >>> Let's be honest here FIC is making a pretty penny off of OpenMoko, >>> using very old hardware selling at a premium price (2.5g not even >>> EDGE). Yet we are OK with that. What the community DOES expect is >>> basic support, for starters a phone that makes calls without echoing, >>> doesn't drop connection and sends and receives text messages reliably >>> as the Number 1 priority. If I'm not mistaken, the majority of the >>> working code in OpenMoko is from Trolltech. In addition FSO has a >>> very nice distro and the Freerunner isn't even its main device. Yet >>> more than 1 year AFTER the release of the 1974, we still have MAJOR >>> issues from a basic install of Om. Then we read stuff like this. >>> >>> "OM is moving more focus to gta03 now, so my current resource for >>> qtopia is fairly limited." >>> >>> It becomes evident that FIC and Openmoko cares less about creating >>> reliably working software then it does about moving products. (not >>> blaming the developers here, they get pressure) Follow the next link >>> and I think I've made my case. >>> >>> http://www.cafepress.com/openmoko_inc >>> >>> Now with that said, I will be posting online my howtos including >>> scripts to make a kinda stable variant of FDOM soon. Been too busy >>> reflashing my phone. >>> >>> On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 1:28 AM, Karthik Kumar >>> wrote: You should have fixed the GTA02 months back, when you released it. Instead, you people are working on GTA03/Neo Whatever. It proves that you don't care about the community, You just care about the bunch of people who might want to buy your upcoming phones, who sponsor your own selfish causes and suffer while you are working on GTA04. >>> >>> -- >>> Paul >>> Email - pault...@gmail.com >>> >>> There were moments when he l
Re: Sad Story
On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 2:10 PM, Andy Green wrote: > though so I think it's probably down to you to move a slider the once > until you are happy, awful imposition as that is. If there is a slider, you should have told me. I thought it was a process of sshing into the device guessing the volume to use in gsmhandset.state file, restarting x, calling a couple of your pals repeating the mantra of "Can you hear you now?" and repeat. On a personal note, I am hard of hearing so turning the volume down does resolve the echo issue, but in a noisy background situation (like walking down the street) the phone is pretty useless. > As John Lee explained, and I knew to be so before he told from other > readings anyway, this is a problem with nomenclature. He does not > actually mean GTA03 hardware here but stuff that will apply to GTA02 > along the lines GTA02 rootfs today applies to GTA01. Fair enough, misunderstandings happen all the time. > What's evident to me is there is a danger of so enjoying and wanting to > prolong the "victim" status that opportunities to solve problems and > move things forward are actively ignored. Let's separate the victim status from pointing out weaknesses of this system. If someone says, hey, the stable 2008.8 repositories are broken, does it mean that the communities is whining? If something is broken, it should be resolved and researched so it doesn't happen again. -- Paul Email - pault...@gmail.com There were moments when he looked on evil simply as a mode through which he could realize his conception of the beautiful. Oscar Wilde - The Picture of Dorian Gray ___ support mailing list support@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/support
Re: Sad Story
Wolfgang, On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 3:05 PM, Wolfgang Spraul wrote: > If you don't know you shouldn't pretend to know. > I applaud the brave investors we have, we have a long way to go to > make this an interesting investment for them, compared to many other > places they could put their money. Luckily there are many people that > enjoy this project so much and contribute that I am optimistic we can > show them the true power of our community, over time. Let's also applaud the consumers of the product that still, despite the many issues, are taking the time to contribute to the process. > I believe this was John. Taken out of context, and you are exploiting > slight weaknesses in his usage of English. Taken out of context? How? That was the first sentence of the section. If its a misunderstanding of GTA03 referring to something else, fine, I conceed. Honestly, how is anyone supposed to know that the gta03 is a software stack that used for the GTA02 device? Google GTA03 for any references to anything but hardware. > I regularly see John in the office until 2 or 3 AM, working for the > project he loves. He said 'more' focus, because although he spends > 100% of his time developing on gta02, he also wants to start learning > more about gta03 now, join some product meetings, etc. That's it. He > continues to work on gta02 full time. He should feel assured that the community stays up with him working to 2-3 am in the morning after their regular jobs. I do. I am trying to address the focus of the project. I am willing to assert that EVERYONE is working hard. We just need to work smarter, with a unified vision. We need transparent documentation of the hardware (all the variants) so the community can contribute. At the request of the developers to test out the testing version, I did reflash my device MANY times, and hit walls. When asking for advice and help to resolve them, I received helpful tidbits such as, your subject line is wrong. > Steve and Sean did this during the weekend... BTW, 100% of the > profits will go towards our bounties for Free Software developers. This is all well and good. Let's focus first on creating a solid infrastructure so free software can be run on this device, reliably. We already have many people devoted to this project with the only expected reward is accomplishments. Let's achieve. Then lets worry about T-Shirts and $15 mouse pads, my two cents. -- Paul Email - pault...@gmail.com There were moments when he looked on evil simply as a mode through which he could realize his conception of the beautiful. Oscar Wilde - The Picture of Dorian Gray ___ support mailing list support@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/support
Re: Sad Story
On Fri, 12 Dec 2008 15:47:40 -0500, Paul wrote: > On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 2:10 PM, Andy Green wrote: >> though so I think it's probably down to you to move a slider the once >> until you are happy, awful imposition as that is. > > If there is a slider, you should have told me. I thought it was a > process of sshing into the device guessing the volume to use in > gsmhandset.state file, restarting x, calling a couple of your pals > repeating the mantra of "Can you hear you now?" and repeat. :) > On a personal note, I am hard of hearing so turning the volume down > does resolve the echo issue, but in a noisy background situation (like > walking down the street) the phone is pretty useless. I have to agree with this one - I find the volume level to be barely acceptable in-call, though I know it can go higher. I refuse to use a wired handsfree, and the dog ate my bluetooth (seriously) so handset is it. To be "fair" however, I've been running SHR for some time, which bases phone support on frameworkd from FSO, so this isn't a commentary on OM in my case. (and insofar as 'solving problems' I've been familiarizing myself with libframeworkd-phonegui-efl with one of my goals being adding a volume slider to the SHR in-call controls) >> What's evident to me is there is a danger of so enjoying and wanting to >> prolong the "victim" status that opportunities to solve problems and >> move things forward are actively ignored. > > Let's separate the victim status from pointing out weaknesses of this > system. If someone says, hey, the stable 2008.8 repositories are > broken, does it mean that the communities is whining? Not at all, IMHO. But if you take that 'notice' of a repository being down and run it through the hyperbole amplifier and mix in a little 'woe is me' you get "openmoko.com is down, it's always down, nothing works, I was so cheated, I need a lawyer". THAT, IMHO, is whining. j -- Joel Newkirk http://jthinks.com (blog) http://newkirk.us/om (FR stuff) ___ support mailing list support@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/support
Still can't register GSM
I wrote earlier about being unable to register GSM. It happened out of the blue and I still can't register. > Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2008 16:33:49 + > From: Andy Green > Subject: Re: GSM no longer registers on GTA02 - how to troubleshoot? > Your U-Boot environment can have some issue, that's why the problem > behaviour is so sticky. You are into trying to get a USB serial > connection on ttyACM0 on your host and meddling from there. > > About your main problem not much idea except confirm the SIM still works > on another phone I guess. > > - -Andy Yeah, I'm going to try messing around over the USB console, but I'm trying to get GSM to work first. The SIM works fine on my dumbphone which I have been using for the past few days. I've tried two different SIMs, from two different carriers, both of which used to work on my FR, and both of which still work on other phones. I know that the FR can see the SIM because I can read contacts off of it and stored SMS messages. I have reflashed the phone with several images which were all known working. I'm stumped, and I'm worried that it might not be a software problem. (I think FR only has 30 or 60 day warranty and mine is already older.) How much would an out of warranty repair cost, if I have a hardware problem? How can I tell what the FR is trying to do when it tries to register (and fails)? I like to know if it seems to be the antenna, or the Calypso, or something else. > Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 12:09:47 -0500 > From: Paul > Subject: Re: GSM no longer registers on GTA02 - how to troubleshoot? > To: "Support for Openmoko Device Owners" > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > I received the same behavior when I updated to the latest testing images. > > I revered to the old 2008.9 images and things are working again. > -- > Paul I tried many different images, all of which used to work fine. None of them can register. Also, does anybody know how I can reply to a message and keep it in the right thread if I don't receive individual messages? (I am subscribed in digest mode.) Is there a web interface where I can reply to a specific message? ___ support mailing list support@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/support
pointless ranting was: Re: Sad Story
> If its a misunderstanding of GTA03 referring to something else, fine, > I conceed. Honestly, how is anyone supposed to know that the gta03 is > a software stack that used for the GTA02 device? by actually _READING_ mails for starters! the misunderstanding with the term gta03 has been corrected several times already! if you refuse to check archives and to read mails and instead insist on perpetuating your misstatement, nobody can help you! >> Steve and Sean did this during the weekend... BTW, 100% of the >> profits will go towards our bounties for Free Software developers. > > This is all well and good. Let's focus first on creating a solid > infrastructure so free software can be run on this device, reliably. > We already have many people devoted to this project with the only > expected reward is accomplishments. Let's achieve. > > Then lets worry about T-Shirts and $15 mouse pads, my two cents. the cafepress store was openend after repeated request from teh community! if you would actually read mails and inform yourself before posting unfounded allegations, it would be far better for the community you're claiming to strengthen. your shouting at andy's because he refuses to accept your attitude (see above) is absolutely not helping. ___ support mailing list support@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/support
Re: Still can't register GSM
Stupid question, Have you flashed moko10 gsm firmware? On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 2:08 PM, Daniel Dadap wrote: > I wrote earlier about being unable to register GSM. It happened out of > the blue and I still can't register. > >> Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2008 16:33:49 + >> From: Andy Green >> Subject: Re: GSM no longer registers on GTA02 - how to troubleshoot? >> Your U-Boot environment can have some issue, that's why the problem >> behaviour is so sticky. You are into trying to get a USB serial >> connection on ttyACM0 on your host and meddling from there. >> >> About your main problem not much idea except confirm the SIM still works >> on another phone I guess. >> >> - -Andy > > Yeah, I'm going to try messing around over the USB console, but I'm > trying to get GSM to work first. > > The SIM works fine on my dumbphone which I have been using for the > past few days. I've tried two different SIMs, from two different > carriers, both of which used to work on my FR, and both of which still > work on other phones. I know that the FR can see the SIM because I can > read contacts off of it and stored SMS messages. I have reflashed the > phone with several images which were all known working. I'm stumped, > and I'm worried that it might not be a software problem. (I think FR > only has 30 or 60 day warranty and mine is already older.) > > How much would an out of warranty repair cost, if I have a hardware problem? > > How can I tell what the FR is trying to do when it tries to register > (and fails)? I like to know if it seems to be the antenna, or the > Calypso, or something else. > >> Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 12:09:47 -0500 >> From: Paul >> Subject: Re: GSM no longer registers on GTA02 - how to troubleshoot? >> To: "Support for Openmoko Device Owners" >> Message-ID: >> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 >> >> I received the same behavior when I updated to the latest testing images. >> >> I revered to the old 2008.9 images and things are working again. >> -- >> Paul > > I tried many different images, all of which used to work fine. None of > them can register. > > Also, does anybody know how I can reply to a message and keep it in > the right thread if I don't receive individual messages? (I am > subscribed in digest mode.) Is there a web interface where I can reply > to a specific message? > > ___ > support mailing list > support@lists.openmoko.org > https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/support > ___ support mailing list support@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/support
Re: Still can't register GSM
did you check if all contacts of the sim are connected? (yes, it used to work before, i know) ___ support mailing list support@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/support
Re: Sad Story
As much as I hate to chime in on such a busy and unproductive thread... When the GTA02 was sold, it was *for developers only*. It was very clear on the site. The software is not done. It is not stable. (That said, there are software versions that give you good, stable access to most or all of the hardware for most people. They're just hard to find, and are different for different HW releases.) If it turns out that the hardware can't work reasonably as a phone regardless of software, then FR owners may have a legitimate grievance. (I only have a GTA01). Until that time, you got what was advertised. Even if my hardware can't work reasonably as a phone, I got what was advertised :-) And remember, you people who rushed out to buy a phone because it was open, even with no stable software - there are people who responded to frustrations in the direction by fixing the things they didn't like. See SHR, Debian, FDOM, etc. I grow frustrated with the directions OM takes and the priorities they have sometimes, and I blow off steam in IRC. I try to do it when/where no OM devs are hanging out, because I think they're doing a hard job and don't have control of the things that frustrate me. Bitching to people about things they're working on when they can't do anything about the stuff you're griping about just lowers their morale, which is counterproductive. I really do think the OM devs are doing a good job on a task that is very difficult, and they get a lot of grief for it. I just want to say thanks. That's my whole reason for posting - to thank Andy, Harald, etc. etc. in the OM group, Lorn, etc. of Trolltech, mwester, Julien, quickdev, MarcOChapeau, etc. of the community. I apologize for all the big contributors I didn't name. I appreciate your work just as much even if I may not remember your name from IRC/ML :-) Great work guys, Thanks! Bobby ___ support mailing list support@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/support
Re: Still can't register GSM
I don't think a user can flash GSM firmware, only OM, due to NDA on the Calypso. The GSM firmware is whatever came on the GTA02v5 when I got it. I believe it is moko10 but can't confirm now because I don't have it with me. As I said in the original post, it was working fine (well, as fine as a GTA02 can work) for months, then all of a sudden stopped registering, and nothing I have done has restored it. On an unrelated note, I just discovered http://lists.openmoko.org/nabble.html - very useful for those subscribed in digest mode or no mail. Sargun Dhillon wrote: > > Stupid question, > Have you flashed moko10 gsm firmware? > > On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 2:08 PM, Daniel Dadap wrote: >> I wrote earlier about being unable to register GSM. It happened out of >> the blue and I still can't register. >> >>> Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2008 16:33:49 + >>> From: Andy Green >>> Subject: Re: GSM no longer registers on GTA02 - how to troubleshoot? >>> Your U-Boot environment can have some issue, that's why the problem >>> behaviour is so sticky. You are into trying to get a USB serial >>> connection on ttyACM0 on your host and meddling from there. >>> >>> About your main problem not much idea except confirm the SIM still works >>> on another phone I guess. >>> >>> - -Andy >> >> Yeah, I'm going to try messing around over the USB console, but I'm >> trying to get GSM to work first. >> >> The SIM works fine on my dumbphone which I have been using for the >> past few days. I've tried two different SIMs, from two different >> carriers, both of which used to work on my FR, and both of which still >> work on other phones. I know that the FR can see the SIM because I can >> read contacts off of it and stored SMS messages. I have reflashed the >> phone with several images which were all known working. I'm stumped, >> and I'm worried that it might not be a software problem. (I think FR >> only has 30 or 60 day warranty and mine is already older.) >> >> How much would an out of warranty repair cost, if I have a hardware >> problem? >> >> How can I tell what the FR is trying to do when it tries to register >> (and fails)? I like to know if it seems to be the antenna, or the >> Calypso, or something else. >> >>> Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 12:09:47 -0500 >>> From: Paul >>> Subject: Re: GSM no longer registers on GTA02 - how to troubleshoot? >>> To: "Support for Openmoko Device Owners" >>> Message-ID: >>> >>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 >>> >>> I received the same behavior when I updated to the latest testing >>> images. >>> >>> I revered to the old 2008.9 images and things are working again. >>> -- >>> Paul >> >> I tried many different images, all of which used to work fine. None of >> them can register. >> >> Also, does anybody know how I can reply to a message and keep it in >> the right thread if I don't receive individual messages? (I am >> subscribed in digest mode.) Is there a web interface where I can reply >> to a specific message? >> >> ___ >> support mailing list >> support@lists.openmoko.org >> https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/support >> > > ___ > support mailing list > support@lists.openmoko.org > https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/support > > -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/Still-can%27t-register-GSM-tp1649863p1650210.html Sent from the Openmoko Support mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ support mailing list support@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/support
Re: Still can't register GSM
I'm sorry, I don't understand the question. Connected to what? arne anka wrote: > > did you check if all contacts of the sim are connected? (yes, it used to > work before, i know) > > ___ > support mailing list > support@lists.openmoko.org > https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/support > > -- View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/Still-can%27t-register-GSM-tp1649863p1650214.html Sent from the Openmoko Support mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ support mailing list support@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/support
Re: Still can't register GSM
1. flash moko10 as recommended below - fixes problems with some incompatible SIMs. On my Vodafone 128K, made a huge difference to the PIN dialog popping up - not 100% fixed, but made a difference between 1 in 10, to 1 in 2. 2. try logging in and run "logread" - if you see "ATCHAT: ATF modem ready" (something like that anyway) continually being repeated. Restart X (/etc/init.d/xserver-nodm reboot) - give it up to 10 goes or so (then try 3 below). On my phone (even with moko10) it appears to be unresponsive to the first reset/commands and just starts repeating the above message to the log. Restarting X gets it to try again. It doesnt do it if you leave it to its own devices. 3. Shut down, remove battery for a few seconds. Replace battery, reboot, go to 2 above if neccesary. 4. Remove any SD card (esp if over 4gb) and retry. 5. Use another phone and set a PIN on the SIM if not set and try again (at least one software version wouldnt work if PIN wasnt set :( 6. Reboot, wait for a few minutes (5?) where nothing is happening and run "logread > logread-.txt" and post logread-.txt here for comment. 7. Try 2008.testing in combination with moko10 8. file a bug - I would think it most unlikely its a hardware problem (other than the known one of incompatible SIMs) - its probably down to the software. BillK On Fri, 2008-12-12 at 14:12 -0800, Sargun Dhillon wrote: > Stupid question, > Have you flashed moko10 gsm firmware? > > On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 2:08 PM, Daniel Dadap wrote: > > I wrote earlier about being unable to register GSM. It happened out of > > the blue and I still can't register. > > > >> Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2008 16:33:49 + > >> From: Andy Green > >> Subject: Re: GSM no longer registers on GTA02 - how to troubleshoot? > >> Your U-Boot environment can have some issue, that's why the problem > >> behaviour is so sticky. You are into trying to get a USB serial > >> connection on ttyACM0 on your host and meddling from there. > >> > >> About your main problem not much idea except confirm the SIM still works > >> on another phone I guess. > >> > >> - -Andy > > > > Yeah, I'm going to try messing around over the USB console, but I'm > > trying to get GSM to work first. > > > > The SIM works fine on my dumbphone which I have been using for the > > past few days. I've tried two different SIMs, from two different > > carriers, both of which used to work on my FR, and both of which still > > work on other phones. I know that the FR can see the SIM because I can > > read contacts off of it and stored SMS messages. I have reflashed the > > phone with several images which were all known working. I'm stumped, > > and I'm worried that it might not be a software problem. (I think FR > > only has 30 or 60 day warranty and mine is already older.) > > > > How much would an out of warranty repair cost, if I have a hardware problem? > > > > How can I tell what the FR is trying to do when it tries to register > > (and fails)? I like to know if it seems to be the antenna, or the > > Calypso, or something else. > > > >> Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 12:09:47 -0500 > >> From: Paul > >> Subject: Re: GSM no longer registers on GTA02 - how to troubleshoot? > >> To: "Support for Openmoko Device Owners" > >> Message-ID: > >> > >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > >> > >> I received the same behavior when I updated to the latest testing images. > >> > >> I revered to the old 2008.9 images and things are working again. > >> -- > >> Paul > > > > I tried many different images, all of which used to work fine. None of > > them can register. > > > > Also, does anybody know how I can reply to a message and keep it in > > the right thread if I don't receive individual messages? (I am > > subscribed in digest mode.) Is there a web interface where I can reply > > to a specific message? > > > > ___ > > support mailing list > > support@lists.openmoko.org > > https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/support > > > > ___ > support mailing list > support@lists.openmoko.org > https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/support -- William Kenworthy Home in Perth! ___ support mailing list support@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/support
Re: Still can't register GSM
Users can flash the calypso, check the wiki for the procedure and software/firmware required. BillK On Fri, 2008-12-12 at 15:47 -0800, danek wrote: > I don't think a user can flash GSM firmware, only OM, due to NDA on the > Calypso. > > The GSM firmware is whatever came on the GTA02v5 when I got it. I believe it > is moko10 but can't confirm now because I don't have it with me. > > As I said in the original post, it was working fine (well, as fine as a > GTA02 can work) for months, then all of a sudden stopped registering, and > nothing I have done has restored it. > > On an unrelated note, I just discovered > http://lists.openmoko.org/nabble.html - very useful for those subscribed in > digest mode or no mail. > > > Sargun Dhillon wrote: > > > > Stupid question, > > Have you flashed moko10 gsm firmware? > > > > On Fri, Dec 12, 2008 at 2:08 PM, Daniel Dadap wrote: > >> I wrote earlier about being unable to register GSM. It happened out of > >> the blue and I still can't register. > >> > >>> Date: Tue, 09 Dec 2008 16:33:49 + > >>> From: Andy Green > >>> Subject: Re: GSM no longer registers on GTA02 - how to troubleshoot? > >>> Your U-Boot environment can have some issue, that's why the problem > >>> behaviour is so sticky. You are into trying to get a USB serial > >>> connection on ttyACM0 on your host and meddling from there. > >>> > >>> About your main problem not much idea except confirm the SIM still works > >>> on another phone I guess. > >>> > >>> - -Andy > >> > >> Yeah, I'm going to try messing around over the USB console, but I'm > >> trying to get GSM to work first. > >> > >> The SIM works fine on my dumbphone which I have been using for the > >> past few days. I've tried two different SIMs, from two different > >> carriers, both of which used to work on my FR, and both of which still > >> work on other phones. I know that the FR can see the SIM because I can > >> read contacts off of it and stored SMS messages. I have reflashed the > >> phone with several images which were all known working. I'm stumped, > >> and I'm worried that it might not be a software problem. (I think FR > >> only has 30 or 60 day warranty and mine is already older.) > >> > >> How much would an out of warranty repair cost, if I have a hardware > >> problem? > >> > >> How can I tell what the FR is trying to do when it tries to register > >> (and fails)? I like to know if it seems to be the antenna, or the > >> Calypso, or something else. > >> > >>> Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2008 12:09:47 -0500 > >>> From: Paul > >>> Subject: Re: GSM no longer registers on GTA02 - how to troubleshoot? > >>> To: "Support for Openmoko Device Owners" > >>> Message-ID: > >>> > >>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > >>> > >>> I received the same behavior when I updated to the latest testing > >>> images. > >>> > >>> I revered to the old 2008.9 images and things are working again. > >>> -- > >>> Paul > >> > >> I tried many different images, all of which used to work fine. None of > >> them can register. > >> > >> Also, does anybody know how I can reply to a message and keep it in > >> the right thread if I don't receive individual messages? (I am > >> subscribed in digest mode.) Is there a web interface where I can reply > >> to a specific message? > >> > >> ___ > >> support mailing list > >> support@lists.openmoko.org > >> https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/support > >> > > > > ___ > > support mailing list > > support@lists.openmoko.org > > https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/support > > > > > -- William Kenworthy Home in Perth! ___ support mailing list support@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/support
Re: Still can't register GSM
> I don't think a user can flash GSM firmware, only OM, due to NDA on the > Calypso. yes, you can. om perepared an image you put on sd and boot from, then the firmware will be upgraded. search the archives and the wiki for links and howto. ___ support mailing list support@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/support
Re: Still can't register GSM
>> did you check if all contacts of the sim are connected? (yes, it used to >> work before, i know) > I'm sorry, I don't understand the question. Connected to what? to the contacts of the fr sim slot. if i remember right, the fr's contacts are just some kind of springs which might very well loose suspension somehow. additionally the sim itself is some kind of plastic which might deform. while each might be completely inside the tolerance, together it might lead to some pads of the sim not being connected with the according pin. putting some paper betwen the slider and the sim or pressing the sim down with a finger might help. ___ support mailing list support@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/support
Re: Sad Story
On Sat, Dec 13, 2008 at 4:13 AM, Bobby Martin wrote: > As much as I hate to chime in on such a busy and unproductive thread... > > When the GTA02 was sold, it was *for developers only*. It was very clear on > the site. The software is not done. It is not stable. (That said, there > are software versions that give you good, stable access to most or all of > the hardware for most people. They're just hard to find, and are different > for different HW releases.) > > If it turns out that the hardware can't work reasonably as a phone > regardless of software, then FR owners may have a legitimate grievance. (I > only have a GTA01). Until that time, you got what was advertised. Even if > my hardware can't work reasonably as a phone, I got what was advertised :-) > There are still hardware problems that exist with almost every freerunner out there (GPS signal levels, for one). I would like to see them fixed by Openmoko, Inc. > And remember, you people who rushed out to buy a phone because it was open, > even with no stable software - there are people who responded to > frustrations in the direction by fixing the things they didn't like. See > SHR, Debian, FDOM, etc. > > I grow frustrated with the directions OM takes and the priorities they have > sometimes, and I blow off steam in IRC. I try to do it when/where no OM > devs are hanging out, because I think they're doing a hard job and don't > have control of the things that frustrate me. Bitching to people about > things they're working on when they can't do anything about the stuff you're > griping about just lowers their morale, which is counterproductive. > I get that. At the same time, you realize that the frustration is totally vented towards Openmoko's management. Let me say this again: Do not hijack this thread towards open source, or productivity or whatever. > I really do think the OM devs are doing a good job on a task that is very > difficult, and they get a lot of grief for it. I just want to say thanks. > That's my whole reason for posting - to thank Andy, Harald, etc. etc. in the > OM group, Lorn, etc. of Trolltech, mwester, Julien, quickdev, MarcOChapeau, > etc. of the community. I apologize for all the big contributors I didn't > name. I appreciate your work just as much even if I may not remember your > name from IRC/ML :-) > > Great work guys, > Thanks! > Bobby > > ___ > support mailing list > support@lists.openmoko.org > https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/support > ___ support mailing list support@lists.openmoko.org https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/support
