unhosted web apps not working in SeaMonkey 2.4* but work in Firefox 49

[Reuben Pinder]

Hi guys,

I ( as perhaps many of you ) am a fan of the unhosted web apps concept
https://unhosted.org/

And have downloaded a number of these apps
https://unhosted.org/apps/

Notably:
Laverna --> https://laverna.cc/
Litewrite --> http://litewrite.net/

And a Sticky Notes app which I got from ( the now defunct ) MDN Demo Studio.

Now, SeaMonkey is my default browser, so when I opened up
Litewrite... uh... nothing happening... =(
Laverna... "Loading" splash screen for... ... ever =((

Sticky Notes app presents itself but does not respond to clicks =(((

But when I opened up all of the above on Firefox, they all worked just fine.

In short, I asked myself, What does Firefox have that SeaMonkey doesn't? But 
how can it be? These apps are merely written in HTML, CSS, JavaScript and 
whatnot, so any browser should be able to render these apps more or less like a 
webpage.

Any help/suggestions/enlightenment on the subject - would be greatly 
appreciated! If it has something to do with certain key ingredients that 
haven't been ported over and not yet included in the latest SeaMonkey release, 
no problem, I can wait.

It just would be nice... no AWESOME! to be able to get the concept of running 
unhosted web apps in my favorite browser!

Thank you for your time.

Kind Regards,

Reuben
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Re: Chase bank site is excluding Seamonkey

[Felix Miata]

NFN Smith composed on 2016-07-21 15:33 (UTC-0700):
...

I don't know Lunascape well enough to know where to see the raw UA

...

7) I tried a login with Epic (a Chrome derivative) -- I don't have the
raw UA


http://fm.no-ip.com/Auth/dpi-screen-window.html won't give you one that's raw 
enough?

--
"The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant
words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation)

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

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Re: Chase bank site is excluding Seamonkey

[NFN Smith]

Arnie Goetchius wrote:

Felix Miata wrote:

Arnie Goetchius composed on 2016-07-21 08:10 (UTC-0400):


Daniel wrote:



And Arnie, if you do actually send in a real "Pen and Ink" letter, it might also
be worthwhile mentioning that other browsers, which currently cannot get to the
Chase site because of the incorrect sniffing, could/would also work if Chase
sniffed for the Gecko process, rather than for a particular Browser Name.



Thanks for the ideas. Sniffing for Gecko is the key.


Absolutely. It doesn't do any good to demand explicit support for 
Seamonkey, if that doesn't apply to other Gecko-based browsers. 
However, I have more notes on that (see below)




Sniffing for Gecko would be merely a major improvement, still an arbitrary
denier of any browser name which to the site's authors is unfamiliar. Sniffing
for functionality is the idea approach. Sniffing out functionality is entirely
browser name agnostic.


Thanks. I would like to include a link in my correspondence which explains
"Sniffing out functionality". Would the following be a good example:

https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/hh273397%28v=vs.85%29.aspx



A good link.

Traditionally, I point people to http://geckoisgecko.org/.  The links 
contained there (especially 
http://www.sitepoint.com/article/dhtml-utopia-modern-web-design/4 and 
http://archive.bclary.com/xbProjects-docs/geckoGetRv/) are good, but 
GeckoIsGecko is aged enough that I think that page does more harm than 
good.  All the projects there are listed with equal prominence, but the 
only ones that I believe are active are Firefox, Seamonkey, and 
K-Meleon.  As far as I'm aware, all the others are abandoned. And 
several I've never heard of, except in the context of this page.


There's no mention of more current Gecko-based projects, such as 
Waterfox, PaleMoon (now shifted to Goanna, a Gecko fork), or Lunascape 
(which allows the user to select rendering by Gecko, Trident or WebKit). 
 It really doesn't help to try to convince somebody like Chase that 
Seamonkey is a viable (and used) product, when it's presented alongside 
dead projects like Camino, Prism or Fennec.



In the meantime, I ran a some tests at https://chaseonline.chase.com, 
using both spoofing from PrefBar, as well as installed browsers.  I found:


1) If I try a login with a standard Seamonkey Profile (and default user 
agent strings), Chase complains about my browser.  UA string that I used 
is: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:43.0) Gecko/20100101 
Firefox/43.0 SeaMonkey/2.40


2) Using PrefBar to spoof, I have no problem logging in, if the UA is 
showing:


* default Firefox:

 Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/45.0

* Chrome:

Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64) AppleWebKit/537.36 (KHTML, like Gecko) 
Chrome/49.0.2623.87 Safari/537.36

* Opera

Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64) AppleWebKit/537.36 (KHTML, like Gecko) 
Chrome/49.0.2623.75 Safari/537.36 OPR/36.0.2130.32



3) I also found that when I am spoofing, after I get past the login 
dialog, I can change the UA back to the Seamonkey default, and there's 
no apparent problems with further access.


4) I tried a login with PaleMoon 32,, and found no problems with login.

Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64) AppleWebKit/537.36 (KHTML, like Gecko) 
Chrome/49.0.2623.87 Safari/537.36


5) I downloaded and ran a portable version of Waterfox  on my main 
working machine. When I logged in, Chase complained that it didn't 
recognize my IP, and required emailing of an access code. Once I put 
that in, everything else was fine.

Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; Win64; x64; rv:47.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/47.0.1 
Waterfox/47.0.1


6) I did a login with Lunascape, where I set the browser to render with 
Gecko, and didn't have problems.  I don't know Lunascape well enough to 
know where to see the raw UA (and I didn't try to access a web server I 
have access to, to check logs), but Lunascape reports: "Gecko Plugin 
Version 38.8.0.27543 / Gecko 38.8.0". I ran this one on a virtual 
machine. Running from a virtual machine, a complaint by Chase about an 
unrecognized IP, but no problems after I entered the access code.


7) I tried a login with Epic (a Chrome derivative) -- I don't have the 
raw UA, but Epic reports that it's running version 48.0.2553.0. As with 
Lunascape, I was working from my VM, and Chase complained about an 
unrecognized IP. After entering the emailed access code, no problems 
with interacting with the site.


I should note that with a successful login, in each case, I get a "My 
Accounts" display at https://chaseonline.chase.com/MyAccounts.aspx.



This is interesting, that the only place where I'm seeing browser 
compatibility issues is if the UA is explicitly showing "Seamonkey".  No 
problems with other Seamonkey spoofing other browsers (both Gecko and 
non-Gecko), or use of other Gecko-derived browsers. Or in the case of 
Epic, a Chrome-derived browser.


Just for the heck of it, I decided t

Re: v2.40 to v.2.39 backwards reversion

[Ed Mullen]

On 7/21/2016 at 12:43 PM, Henrik37's prodigious digits fired off:

I have been running v.2.39 on a 32 bit Windows XP SP3 machine.
Unfortunately, I neglected to reset the default automatic version
download and install feature to 'no' and v.2.40 downloaded and installed
itself before I could stop it.

Is there any way to go back to v.2.39 without a complete deinstall of
v.2.40?

I.e., could I simply install v.2.39 on top of the existing v.2.40?
Alternately, is there some other approach that does not involve a
complete deinstall of v.2.40 that is preferable?

Thanks for any and all comments and advice.


Safest way is to uninstall 2.40 and reinstall 2.39.  Your profile will 
be unchanged.


--
Ed Mullen
http://edmullen.net/
"Clothes make the man. Naked people have little or no influence on 
society." - Mark Twain

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Re: Chase bank site is excluding Seamonkey

[Ed Mullen]

On 7/21/2016 at 2:16 AM, Daniel's prodigious digits fired off:

On 21/07/2016 3:15 AM, Arnie Goetchius wrote:

WaltS48 wrote:

On 07/20/2016 11:54 AM, Arnie Goetchius wrote:

Desiree wrote:

On 7/18/2016 10:38 PM, Paul B. Gallagher wrote:

Ray_Net wrote:

Paul B. Gallagher wrote on 19/07/2016 00:59:

Ray_Net wrote:


So the best default User agent string could be:
: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:41.0) Gecko/20100101
SeaMonkey/2.38
same as Firefox/41.0

then it will be recognized as FF by the bad sniffing method and
recognized as SM by everybody.

You're thinking like a human being, silly!

Some sniffers reject a UA string that contains "SeaMonkey" even
if it
also contains "Firefox." That's why the solution in this thread
worked
-- because Chase's sniffer is that stupid. You have to pretend
to be
Firefox AND pretend not to be SeaMonkey.


I just thinked that the sniffer will only use the last "word"
which is
in this case "Firefox/41.0" instead of in the normal UAstring the
last
"word" is "SeaMonkey/2.38"

So could be better to have the default string this:
Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:41.0) Gecko/20100101
SeaMonkey/2.38 same
as Firefox/41.0
instead of this:
Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:41.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/41.0
SeaMonkey/2.38

Is my idea a bad idea ?

If it works, it's good; if it doesn't, it's bad. Only a Chase
customer
can tell us. I can't log in because I don't bank with them. My
bank is
fine with SeaMonkey.


For me, as a Chase customer, SeaMonkey cannot be in the string at
all. I have
Windows 8.0 Pro and am using User Agent Switcher extension and
chose this
string: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:40.0) Gecko/20100101
Firefox/40.0.  It works fine.

I logged into my Chase account (with Firefox, of course) and used
their Secure
Message center to send the following message. They say they will be
back to me
in one business day. I am looking forward to what they say. Probably
"We no
longer support Netscape" :-)

Why Won’t Chase Accept Seamonkey as a Legitimate Browser?

The original and most popular internet web browser in the early
1990’s was
Netscape Navigator. When the ability to send and receive emails was
added to the
Netscape Navigator’s capabilities, the browser’s  name was  changed
to Netscape
Communicator.  Netscape Communicator was eventually taken over by
the Mozilla
Foundation where in addition to Netscape Communicator,  Mozilla
produced a
browser only without email capability and called it Firefox. At that
time
Netscape Communicator was renamed Seamonkey.  In essence, Seamonkey
is a direct
descendant of the original Netscape browser.  It continues to be
maintained by
Mozilla and the browser portion of Seamonkey works the same way as
FireFox.

The problem is that when the Chase web software looks at the browser
being used
as defined by the User Agent  string shown below, it accepts the
User Agent
string from Firefox but rejects the User Agent string from
Seamonkey. The only
difference between the two User Agent strings is that the one from
Seamonkey
adds “Seamonkey/2.40” at the end. Other than that, they are both the
same.  User
Agent strings will also vary depending on the operating system used
by the
computer. However, the common part of the User Agent string,
“Gecko/20100101” is
always present no matter what operating system is being used.

I hope that the people who run your website will once again accept
the users of
the descendant of the original web browser now called Seamonkey as
do the other
major financial institutions such as American Express, Wells Fargo,
Charles
Schwab, etc, etc

User Agent String Samples for Firefox and Seamonkey

Firefox

   Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:43.0) Gecko/20100101
Firefox/43.0

Seamonkey

Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:43.0) Gecko/20100101
Firefox/43.0
SeaMonkey/2.40




Actually it is SeaMonkey and not maintained by Mozilla, but the
SeaMonkey
Council, a small group of dedicated volunteers, that has lost some of
its long
time contributors, just like Thunderbird.

Nice letter though.


Thanks for the correction on SeaMonkey Council. If my communication
with their
message center doesn't work, I will send a copy of the above to Dr Gavin
Michael, Chief Technology Officer at Chase at their NY HQ.


And if I were to be picky picky, I would state that the correct User
Agent string for SeaMonkey 2.40 was ...

Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:43.0) Gecko/20100101 SeaMonkey/2.40

If you go to Edit->Prefs->Advanced->HTTP Networking, you can select to
"Advertise Firefox Capability" in the User Agent String, which adds the
Firefox/43.0 bit.

And Arnie, if you do actually send in a real "Pen and Ink" letter, it
might also be worthwhile mentioning that other browsers, which currently
cannot get to the Chase site because of the incorrect sniffing,
could/would also work if Chase sniffed for the Gecko process, rather
than for a particular Browser Name.



And include these links as well:

Re: Using Windows 7 with SM v2.40 what's the point in switching to W10?

[NFN Smith]

Richard Alan wrote:

Daniel wrote:


NFN Smith wrote:

My view is that if you *want* Win 10, go for it.  However, if you
decide that you can live without things like Cortana or Windows Ink,
wait until you decide you're ready for a new machine.  Remember Win 10
support will continue until sometime in 2020.


"Remember Win 10 support will continue until sometime in 2020."


PEBCAK on my part.  I had meant to say that Win 7 goes through 2020.



Windows 10 end-of-life is currently October 2025. But don't be surprised
if it is a "subscription service" by then. Pay every year.


Yep.

So far, Microsoft has been promoting Win 10 as essentially a "rolling 
release", and marketing insists that Win 10 will be the "last release of 
Windows". They also insist that a Windows license will be good for the 
life of the machine, although tied to the machine itself, and not 
transferable to another machine, whether it's an OEM license or not.


It wouldn't surprise me if they figure out a way of doing Windows as a 
paid subscription service, although it's likely they would do something 
that's essentially a grandfathering, where installations already in 
service would be exempt, but where new installations would have a 
slightly different licensing, one that requires periodic payment.


Smith
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Re: Chase bank site is excluding Seamonkey

[Lee]

On 7/21/16, Arnie Goetchius  wrote:
> Felix Miata wrote:
>> Arnie Goetchius composed on 2016-07-21 08:10 (UTC-0400):
>>
>>> Daniel wrote:
>>
 And Arnie, if you do actually send in a real "Pen and Ink" letter, it
 might also
 be worthwhile mentioning that other browsers, which currently cannot get
 to the
 Chase site because of the incorrect sniffing, could/would also work if
 Chase
 sniffed for the Gecko process, rather than for a particular Browser
 Name.
>>
>>> Thanks for the ideas. Sniffing for Gecko is the key.
>>
>> Sniffing for Gecko would be merely a major improvement, still an
>> arbitrary
>> denier of any browser name which to the site's authors is unfamiliar.
>> Sniffing
>> for functionality is the idea approach. Sniffing out functionality is
>> entirely
>> browser name agnostic.
>
> Thanks. I would like to include a link in my correspondence which explains
> "Sniffing out functionality". Would the following be a good example:
>
> https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/hh273397%28v=vs.85%29.aspx
>
> or would there be a better link?

"better" is a matter of opinion; I prefer
https://www.w3.org/community/webed/wiki/Optimizing_content_for_different_browsers:_the_RIGHT_way

which links to
https://modernizr.com/

Regards,
Lee
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Re: Chase bank site is excluding Seamonkey

[Arnie Goetchius]

Felix Miata wrote:
> Arnie Goetchius composed on 2016-07-21 08:10 (UTC-0400):
> 
>> Daniel wrote:
> 
>>> And Arnie, if you do actually send in a real "Pen and Ink" letter, it might 
>>> also
>>> be worthwhile mentioning that other browsers, which currently cannot get to 
>>> the
>>> Chase site because of the incorrect sniffing, could/would also work if Chase
>>> sniffed for the Gecko process, rather than for a particular Browser Name.
> 
>> Thanks for the ideas. Sniffing for Gecko is the key.
> 
> Sniffing for Gecko would be merely a major improvement, still an arbitrary
> denier of any browser name which to the site's authors is unfamiliar. Sniffing
> for functionality is the idea approach. Sniffing out functionality is entirely
> browser name agnostic.

Thanks. I would like to include a link in my correspondence which explains
"Sniffing out functionality". Would the following be a good example:

https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/hh273397%28v=vs.85%29.aspx

or would there be a better link?
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Re: Chase bank site is excluding Seamonkey

[Felix Miata]

Arnie Goetchius composed on 2016-07-21 08:10 (UTC-0400):


Daniel wrote:



And Arnie, if you do actually send in a real "Pen and Ink" letter, it might also
be worthwhile mentioning that other browsers, which currently cannot get to the
Chase site because of the incorrect sniffing, could/would also work if Chase
sniffed for the Gecko process, rather than for a particular Browser Name.



Thanks for the ideas. Sniffing for Gecko is the key.


Sniffing for Gecko would be merely a major improvement, still an arbitrary 
denier of any browser name which to the site's authors is unfamiliar. 
Sniffing for functionality is the idea approach. Sniffing out functionality 
is entirely browser name agnostic.

--
"The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant
words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation)

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

Felix Miata  ***  http://fm.no-ip.com/
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Re: Chase bank site is excluding Seamonkey

[Arnie Goetchius]

Daniel wrote:
> On 21/07/2016 3:15 AM, Arnie Goetchius wrote:
>> WaltS48 wrote:
>>> On 07/20/2016 11:54 AM, Arnie Goetchius wrote:
 Desiree wrote:
> On 7/18/2016 10:38 PM, Paul B. Gallagher wrote:
>> Ray_Net wrote:
>>> Paul B. Gallagher wrote on 19/07/2016 00:59:
 Ray_Net wrote:

> So the best default User agent string could be:
> : Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:41.0) Gecko/20100101 SeaMonkey/2.38
> same as Firefox/41.0
>
> then it will be recognized as FF by the bad sniffing method and
> recognized as SM by everybody.
 You're thinking like a human being, silly!

 Some sniffers reject a UA string that contains "SeaMonkey" even if it
 also contains "Firefox." That's why the solution in this thread worked
 -- because Chase's sniffer is that stupid. You have to pretend to be
 Firefox AND pretend not to be SeaMonkey.

>>> I just thinked that the sniffer will only use the last "word" which is
>>> in this case "Firefox/41.0" instead of in the normal UAstring the last
>>> "word" is "SeaMonkey/2.38"
>>>
>>> So could be better to have the default string this:
>>> Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:41.0) Gecko/20100101 SeaMonkey/2.38 same
>>> as Firefox/41.0
>>> instead of this:
>>> Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; rv:41.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/41.0
>>> SeaMonkey/2.38
>>>
>>> Is my idea a bad idea ?
>> If it works, it's good; if it doesn't, it's bad. Only a Chase customer
>> can tell us. I can't log in because I don't bank with them. My bank is
>> fine with SeaMonkey.
>>
> For me, as a Chase customer, SeaMonkey cannot be in the string at all. I 
> have
> Windows 8.0 Pro and am using User Agent Switcher extension and chose this
> string: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:40.0) Gecko/20100101
> Firefox/40.0.  It works fine.
 I logged into my Chase account (with Firefox, of course) and used their 
 Secure
 Message center to send the following message. They say they will be back 
 to me
 in one business day. I am looking forward to what they say. Probably "We no
 longer support Netscape" :-)

 Why Won’t Chase Accept Seamonkey as a Legitimate Browser?

 The original and most popular internet web browser in the early 1990’s was
 Netscape Navigator. When the ability to send and receive emails was added 
 to
 the
 Netscape Navigator’s capabilities, the browser’s  name was  changed to 
 Netscape
 Communicator.  Netscape Communicator was eventually taken over by the 
 Mozilla
 Foundation where in addition to Netscape Communicator,  Mozilla produced a
 browser only without email capability and called it Firefox. At that time
 Netscape Communicator was renamed Seamonkey.  In essence, Seamonkey is a 
 direct
 descendant of the original Netscape browser.  It continues to be 
 maintained by
 Mozilla and the browser portion of Seamonkey works the same way as FireFox.

 The problem is that when the Chase web software looks at the browser being 
 used
 as defined by the User Agent  string shown below, it accepts the User Agent
 string from Firefox but rejects the User Agent string from Seamonkey. The 
 only
 difference between the two User Agent strings is that the one from 
 Seamonkey
 adds “Seamonkey/2.40” at the end. Other than that, they are both the same. 
 User
 Agent strings will also vary depending on the operating system used by the
 computer. However, the common part of the User Agent string,
 “Gecko/20100101” is
 always present no matter what operating system is being used.

 I hope that the people who run your website will once again accept the 
 users of
 the descendant of the original web browser now called Seamonkey as do the 
 other
 major financial institutions such as American Express, Wells Fargo, Charles
 Schwab, etc, etc

 User Agent String Samples for Firefox and Seamonkey

 Firefox

Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:43.0) Gecko/20100101 
 Firefox/43.0

 Seamonkey

 Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:43.0) Gecko/20100101 
 Firefox/43.0
 SeaMonkey/2.40


>>>
>>> Actually it is SeaMonkey and not maintained by Mozilla, but the SeaMonkey
>>> Council, a small group of dedicated volunteers, that has lost some of its 
>>> long
>>> time contributors, just like Thunderbird.
>>>
>>> Nice letter though.
>>>
>> Thanks for the correction on SeaMonkey Council. If my communication with 
>> their
>> message center doesn't work, I will send a copy of the above to Dr Gavin
>> Michael, Chief Technology Officer at Chase at their NY HQ.
>>
> And if I were to be picky picky, I would state that the correct User Agent
> string for SeaMonkey 2.40 was ...
>

Re: Using Windows 7 with SM v2.40 what's the point in switching to W10?

[Richard Alan]

Daniel wrote:

> NFN Smith wrote:
>> My view is that if you *want* Win 10, go for it.  However, if you
>> decide that you can live without things like Cortana or Windows Ink,
>> wait until you decide you're ready for a new machine.  Remember Win 10
>> support will continue until sometime in 2020.
>
> "Remember Win 10 support will continue until sometime in 2020."

Windows 10 end-of-life is currently October 2025. But don't be surprised 
if it is a "subscription service" by then. Pay every year.

> Hmm! Didn't I read, hereabouts, in the last few days, that Win7 support
> would continue until 2020'ish?? Or did I mis-read, or mis-remember??

Yes, you did read that. Windows 7 support with security updates ends on 
January 14, 2020. It is *not* going to stop working on that date.   :-)

Of course, Microsoft could change their mind before then. 
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Qwant search engine for SeaMonkey

[Rainer Bielefeld]

Hi all.

Anybody here who can add some relevant experience here

in the unofficial blog (or here in the NG)?

Best Regards

Rainer Bielefeld
(SeaMonkey QA volunteer)
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