Food for thought
Robert's post "SeaMonkey Project Goals - The Summary/Excerpt" and a recent request for help "BookMarks,hope this group is better than others" on the FF NG triggered some thoughts I wish to share: - Den's post of the FF NG requested such a simple information - which had not been answered by respectable members of that NG - that I hesitated answering it, for fearing of missing the obvious and making a fool of myself. I finally did (not make a fool of myself ...), and my answer was exactly what the OP expected. Fact 1 - Robert's post about info gathering with respect to the future of SM. Fact 2 Question 1 - How do we make SM a realistic choice for basic computer users, meaning those who tend to be satisfied with what they get when they buy a machine. Vista and all its BS, unavoidable Explorer. Question 2- How do we bring this user who made the initial step subscribe to our NG, how do we make him feel at home and what respect do we show for his lack of knowledge. Question 3 - How do we manage to satisfy basic needs (read, needs from people who just want to get there and who do not care how) while catering to the enthusiast crowd most of us belong to. I do not claim to have the answers to those questions but keeping them in mind might help show the way. "A chaos of constant innovation would, I think, be one sure way to frighten away a large percentage of the current SeaMonkey community" To some, this sentence from Robert's post might mean that we are a bunch of idiots unable to move forward. To others like me, it just means that innovation is good only to the extent it makes things more useful, or more powerful, or both, while keeping them simple. This make me come back to Den's post about bookmarks in FF that was so simple that nobody saw the light. Granted, bookmarks are a sensitive subject for me, among others. But does not this show us the need for simplicity and clarity? From this rambling, I come to the conclusion that we must not be misled by our enthusiasm or find excuses behind software technical considerations: SM must be a software which has its own personality, who makes the user feel at home and who welcomes enthusiasts by way of add-ons (extensions?) while offering a solid, simple and clear base. Innovation means nothing if the end result is not *clearly* better, from a user's stand point, the only one that matters. I believe this is the way to develop a faithful following of users and promoters of the software we believe in. -- John Doue ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Food for thought
John Doue wrote: Robert's post "SeaMonkey Project Goals - The Summary/Excerpt" and a recent request for help "BookMarks,hope this group is better than others" on the FF NG triggered some thoughts I wish to share: - Den's post of the FF NG requested such a simple information - which had not been answered by respectable members of that NG - that I hesitated answering it, for fearing of missing the obvious and making a fool of myself. I finally did (not make a fool of myself ...), and my answer was exactly what the OP expected. Fact 1 - Robert's post about info gathering with respect to the future of SM. Fact 2 Question 1 - How do we make SM a realistic choice for basic computer users, meaning those who tend to be satisfied with what they get when they buy a machine. Vista and all its BS, unavoidable Explorer. Question 2- How do we bring this user who made the initial step subscribe to our NG, how do we make him feel at home and what respect do we show for his lack of knowledge. Question 3 - How do we manage to satisfy basic needs (read, needs from people who just want to get there and who do not care how) while catering to the enthusiast crowd most of us belong to. I do not claim to have the answers to those questions but keeping them in mind might help show the way. "A chaos of constant innovation would, I think, be one sure way to frighten away a large percentage of the current SeaMonkey community" if someone is asking for help, then they must clearly state exactly what they want within that posting. Some postings just go on and on, and I have no idea what they're asking. Some, I ask for clarification. I feel that if you don't clearly state what you want, then the helpers will simply ignore them and just move on. You don't need to write the next novel, but just get to the point of what the problem is. As for that FF user, he was given the correct instructions in another newsgroup, but he never replied back and made a followup, so he asked in another group stating that other group was useless. It took futher postings from yourself, and some of your mind reading techniques, before you were able to fugure out exactly what he wanted. -- *IMPORTANT*: Sorry folks, but I cannot provide email help Emails to me may become public Notice: This posting is protected under the Free Speech Laws, which applies everywhere in the FREE world, except for some strange reason, not to the mozilla.org newsgroup servers, where your posting may get you banned. Peter Potamus & His Magic Flying Balloon: http://melaman2.com/cartoons/singles/mp3/p-potamus.mp3 http://www.toonopedia.com/potamus.htm ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Food for thought
Peter Potamus the Purple Hippo wrote: John Doue wrote: Robert's post "SeaMonkey Project Goals - The Summary/Excerpt" and a recent request for help "BookMarks,hope this group is better than others" on the FF NG triggered some thoughts I wish to share: - Den's post of the FF NG requested such a simple information - which had not been answered by respectable members of that NG - that I hesitated answering it, for fearing of missing the obvious and making a fool of myself. I finally did (not make a fool of myself ...), and my answer was exactly what the OP expected. Fact 1 - Robert's post about info gathering with respect to the future of SM. Fact 2 Question 1 - How do we make SM a realistic choice for basic computer users, meaning those who tend to be satisfied with what they get when they buy a machine. Vista and all its BS, unavoidable Explorer. Question 2- How do we bring this user who made the initial step subscribe to our NG, how do we make him feel at home and what respect do we show for his lack of knowledge. Question 3 - How do we manage to satisfy basic needs (read, needs from people who just want to get there and who do not care how) while catering to the enthusiast crowd most of us belong to. I do not claim to have the answers to those questions but keeping them in mind might help show the way. "A chaos of constant innovation would, I think, be one sure way to frighten away a large percentage of the current SeaMonkey community" if someone is asking for help, then they must clearly state exactly what they want within that posting. Some postings just go on and on, and I have no idea what they're asking. Some, I ask for clarification. I feel that if you don't clearly state what you want, then the helpers will simply ignore them and just move on. You don't need to write the next novel, but just get to the point of what the problem is. As for that FF user, he was given the correct instructions in another newsgroup, but he never replied back and made a followup, so he asked in another group stating that other group was useless. It took futher postings from yourself, and some of your mind reading techniques, before you were able to fugure out exactly what he wanted. Peter, Thanks for those mind reading techniques of mine! You just discovered a gift I was not aware of having :=) -- John Doue ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Food for thought
On Sun, 21 Dec 2008 20:14:08 +0200 John Doue wrote: > - Den's post of the FF NG requested such a simple information - which > had not been answered by respectable members of that NG - that I > hesitated answering it, for fearing of missing the obvious and making > a fool of myself. I finally did (not make a fool of myself ...), and > my answer was exactly what the OP expected. Fact 1 Your answer was also the answer Potamus had given den the first time den asked, three days previously. Also, in the thread you posted to, he had already gotten the response "To back up bookmarks with Firefox 2 versions, go into the bookmark manager window and choose Export from the File menu", which is just as simple and will work just as well as the answer you gave. den didn't understand it, though, so asked the followup question you responded to. That's how it's supposed to work; people ask questions, others answer to the best of their ability, and followup questions are asked and answered if needed. IMO, there's no problem with the way it's working in general and no problem with the way it worked in that thread specifically. den made it a little tougher by ignoring answers he'd already gotten and by providing incorrect information (there are no Fx 1.8.x versions), but that's no big deal. I don't think this part of the food for thought has anything to do with SeaMonkey, so I've set followup to mozilla.general. -- »Q« /"\ ASCII Ribbon Campaign \ / against html e-mailX <http://asciiribbon.org/> / \ ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Food for thought
John Doue wrote: Question 1 - How do we make SM a realistic choice for basic computer users, meaning those who tend to be satisfied with what they get when they buy a machine. Vista and all its BS, unavoidable Explorer. Sorry to be blunt, but I don't see those as our target group, I see those as what Firefox is targeting for and should be targeting for. I for myself tell those to look into Firefox. I tell advanced people to try SeaMonkey, but not novices. Our UI is way to overloaded for "basic computer users", IMHO. Question 2- How do we bring this user who made the initial step subscribe to our NG, how do we make him feel at home and what respect do we show for his lack of knowledge. That's something we surely should think about. Question 3 - How do we manage to satisfy basic needs (read, needs from people who just want to get there and who do not care how) while catering to the enthusiast crowd most of us belong to. Depends on what those users actually want. SeaMonkey might not be the answer for all of those. Robert Kaiser ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Food for thought
Robert Kaiser wrote: John Doue wrote: Question 1 - How do we make SM a realistic choice for basic computer users, meaning those who tend to be satisfied with what they get when they buy a machine. Vista and all its BS, unavoidable Explorer. Sorry to be blunt, but I don't see those as our target group, I see those as what Firefox is targeting for and should be targeting for. I for myself tell those to look into Firefox. I tell advanced people to try SeaMonkey, but not novices. Our UI is way to overloaded for "basic computer users", IMHO. Thank you, Robert, for saying this here! I was thinking of adding to your "SeaMonkey Project Goals" thread, but wasn't sure how to set things up so that it would post HERE rather than to the dev group that you had the follow-up set to! In my humble opinion, SeaMonkey should be aiming to be a bare-bones suite, i.e. basic browser, basic mail & news, basic composer AND a very good extension manager. If you want to send HTML mail - download an extension If you want to view video - download an extension If you want a different theme - download an extension If you want to upgrade your Java - download an extension If you want to do whatever (advanced) - download an extension So the whole thing that you very able guys do would become far more compartmentalised (which, I supposed could make the integration more difficult). We now have 'phones that tell the time, take photos and browser the web.how long before we have wrist watches, a la Dick Tracy, that can do similar. Making SeaMonkey (bare bones) as streamlined as possible could make it more Universal in operation. -- Daniel (using his sister's computer) (Test driving SM 2.x) ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Food for thought
Robert Kaiser wrote: John Doue wrote: Question 1 - How do we make SM a realistic choice for basic computer users, meaning those who tend to be satisfied with what they get when they buy a machine. Vista and all its BS, unavoidable Explorer. Sorry to be blunt, but I don't see those as our target group, I see those as what Firefox is targeting for and should be targeting for. I for myself tell those to look into Firefox. I tell advanced people to try SeaMonkey, but not novices. Our UI is way to overloaded for "basic computer users", IMHO. It is a choice I personally can live with but does not this make us compete with Firefox? snip -- John Doue ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Food for thought
Daniel wrote: Robert Kaiser wrote: John Doue wrote: Question 1 - How do we make SM a realistic choice for basic computer users, meaning those who tend to be satisfied with what they get when they buy a machine. Vista and all its BS, unavoidable Explorer. Sorry to be blunt, but I don't see those as our target group, I see those as what Firefox is targeting for and should be targeting for. I for myself tell those to look into Firefox. I tell advanced people to try SeaMonkey, but not novices. Our UI is way to overloaded for "basic computer users", IMHO. Thank you, Robert, for saying this here! I was thinking of adding to your "SeaMonkey Project Goals" thread, but wasn't sure how to set things up so that it would post HERE rather than to the dev group that you had the follow-up set to! In my humble opinion, SeaMonkey should be aiming to be a bare-bones suite, i.e. basic browser, basic mail & news, basic composer AND a very good extension manager. If you want to send HTML mail - download an extension If you want to view video - download an extension If you want a different theme - download an extension If you want to upgrade your Java - download an extension If you want to do whatever (advanced) - download an extension This might be a bit extreme but should insure the basis is very consistent and solid. The danger here is, IMHO, having a too barebone product might discourage individual users and although I do wish SM to be a professional alternative, life without individual users might be limited ... snip -- John Doue ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
Re: Food for thought. Oups
Robert Kaiser wrote: John Doue wrote: Question 1 - How do we make SM a realistic choice for basic computer users, meaning those who tend to be satisfied with what they get when they buy a machine. Vista and all its BS, unavoidable Explorer. Sorry to be blunt, but I don't see those as our target group, I see those as what Firefox is targeting for and should be targeting for. I for myself tell those to look into Firefox. I tell advanced people to try SeaMonkey, but not novices. Our UI is way to overloaded for "basic computer users", IMHO. It is a choice I personally can live with but does not this make us compete with Firefox? snip Sorry, this one left my keyboard unexpectedly. Please disregard. -- John Doue ___ support-seamonkey mailing list support-seamonkey@lists.mozilla.org https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/support-seamonkey
