Re: [Sursound] A proposal for an Ambisonics based 3D audio codec, MPEG/ITU style...
(Now in the thread-context where it belongs, sorry for my error before...) Dear Mr. Furse, many thanks for some real contributions, in the past and now... :-) Now, on a short note: There might not be sufficient time left to add ideas (and APIs) like presented to any standad they will issue in summer 2013 (?). Maybe something in this direction could be part of a 2nd (relatively independent) version, adding support for audio objects/object streaming etc. However, my impression is that the MPEG's intention is more to settle on something relatively simple, like 22.2, Auro-3D speaker layout etc. (Otherwise the standardization timeframe from 2012 to 2013 didn't make any sense) I think the best way you could help is to get into contact with the MPEG 3D Audio group, if there exists any "real" MPEG audio group. (This is the next problem. The MPEG has co-established video expert groups like JVT for AVC/H.264 and JCT for HEVC/H.265. I don't see anything like this for audio, correct me if I am wrong...) How things stand, interesting proposals might not be discussed/worked out because the standaization process itself has been very short-term. (They work on HEVC since 2010, many meetings.) http://www.ist37.org/index.xalter IST/37 prepares national contrbutions into the international standards committee, ISO/IEC JTC1/SC29 - two of whose working groups have achieved worldwide recognition for their work as MPEG and JPEG. Exactly. IST/37 is actually not only "close" to the MPEG, you have been and are a direct contributor. :-) If we talk about "MPEG audio" and Ambisonics, I think they should really listen to you. Best regards, Stefan Richard Furse wrote: Very interesting post & following discussion. I've actually been added very recently to the IST/37 committee, which apparently is a close relative to the MPEG one. However, I've not talked to any other members so far and I'm not sure how all this stuff works just yet! In other news, I spent a bit of time last year putting together a C API for object streaming etc (including Ambisonics). Hopefully it roughly captures the suggestions/requirements below. This project is now in a state where there's a fairly short API that seems to work and a basic SDK which provides some basic reference tools like a simple stereo renderer, lossless file format and network streaming. However, this isn't part of the API/Spec itself - the intent is that the C API should be independent of actual rendering/stream/persistence formats (although a reference is provided), so would hopefully play nice with Atmos/MDA. That said, I've not seen a *technical* spec for either of these yet, so there's a fair bit of guesswork happening. Certainly what's there now seems to work well for me, so far. :-/ The provisional spec has been bounced off a few folk but I've not heard much back (though I also had some email problems at a similar time). I'm wondering about releasing the API and SDK using some kind of open source license. Anyway - if folk are interested in more detail, please get in touch off-list! Best wishes, --Richard -Original Message- From: sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu [mailto:sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Stefan Schreiber Sent: 06 January 2013 02:00 To: Surround Sound discussion group Subject: [Sursound] A proposal for an Ambisonics based 3D audio codec, MPEG/ITU style... Dear colleagues... I would like to remember everybody interested or already being involved that ITU/MPEG plan to define and issue some 3D audio standard (better: 3D audio standard framework) during this year. The 3D audio codec is meant to be part of the (wider) MPEG-H standard. This all makes a lot of sense, 'cos ;-) there is already some competition around: 1. Hamasaki 22.2, well known as (audio) part of former UHDTV (Super Hi-vision) proposals. 2. http://www.auro-3d.com/system/listening-formats (Note: a) The Auro-3D® Engine comprises: Auro Codec: The revolutionary codec that delivers native, discrete Auro-3D® content. Auro-Matic: The groundbreaking up-mixing algorithm that converts legacy content into the Auro- 3D® format. Auro-3D® Headphone: Like other audio configurations, similar results can be achieved with headphones that use binaural technology. b) Film, Broadcast, Gaming, Mobile, Automotive and Multimedia industries are all searching for a next generation sound format. With 3D Stereoscopic imagery becoming commonplace, the time is right for an audio experience that matches this increased level of fidelity. Sound in 3D is clearly the next step. 3. http://www.dolby.com/us/en/consumer/technology/movie/dolby-atmos.html (IMHO, Dolby won't participate in the MPEG standardization process. And even if, Dolby Atmos seems to be finished.) The current situation at MPEG: http://www.itu.int/en/ITU-T/studygroups/com16/video/Pages/jctvc.aspx Next meetings: * Geneva, Switzerland, Octo
[Sursound] [Fwd: RE: A proposal for an Ambisonics based 3D audio codec, MPEG/ITU style...]
Dear Mr. Furse, many thanks for some real contributions, in the past and now... :-) Now, on a short note: There might not be sufficient time left to add ideas (and APIs) like presented to any standad they will issue in summer 2013 (?). Maybe something in this direction could be part of a 2nd (relatively independent) version, adding support for audio objects/object streaming etc. However, my impression is that the MPEG's intention is more to settle on something relatively simple, like 22.2, Auro-3D speaker layout etc. (Otherwise the standardization timeframe from 2012 to 2013 didn't make any sense) I think the best way you could help is to get into contact with the MPEG 3D Audio group, if there exists any "real" MPEG audio group. (This is the next problem. The MPEG has co-established video expert groups like JVT for AVC/H.264 and JCT for HEVC/H.265. I don't see anything like this for audio, correct me if I am wrong...) How things stand, interesting proposals might not be discussed/worked out because the standaization process itself has been very short-term. (They work on HEVC since 2010, many meetings.) http://www.ist37.org/index.xalter IST/37 prepares national contrbutions into the international standards committee, ISO/IEC JTC1/SC29 - two of whose working groups have achieved worldwide recognition for their work as MPEG and JPEG. Exactly. IST/37 is actually not only "close" to the MPEG, you have been and are a direct contributor. :-) If we talk about "MPEG audio" and Ambisonics, I think they should really listen to you. Best regards, Stefan Original Message Subject: RE: [Sursound] A proposal for an Ambisonics based 3D audio codec, MPEG/ITU style... Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2013 12:40:41 - From: Richard Furse To: 'Surround Sound discussion group' , 'Stefan Schreiber' Very interesting post & following discussion. I've actually been added very recently to the IST/37 committee, which apparently is a close relative to the MPEG one. However, I've not talked to any other members so far and I'm not sure how all this stuff works just yet! In other news, I spent a bit of time last year putting together a C API for object streaming etc (including Ambisonics). Hopefully it roughly captures the suggestions/requirements below. This project is now in a state where there's a fairly short API that seems to work and a basic SDK which provides some basic reference tools like a simple stereo renderer, lossless file format and network streaming. However, this isn't part of the API/Spec itself - the intent is that the C API should be independent of actual rendering/stream/persistence formats (although a reference is provided), so would hopefully play nice with Atmos/MDA. That said, I've not seen a *technical* spec for either of these yet, so there's a fair bit of guesswork happening. Certainly what's there now seems to work well for me, so far. :-/ The provisional spec has been bounced off a few folk but I've not heard much back (though I also had some email problems at a similar time). I'm wondering about releasing the API and SDK using some kind of open source license. Anyway - if folk are interested in more detail, please get in touch off-list! Best wishes, --Richard -Original Message- From: sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu [mailto:sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Stefan Schreiber Sent: 06 January 2013 02:00 To: Surround Sound discussion group Subject: [Sursound] A proposal for an Ambisonics based 3D audio codec, MPEG/ITU style... Dear colleagues... I would like to remember everybody interested or already being involved that ITU/MPEG plan to define and issue some 3D audio standard (better: 3D audio standard framework) during this year. The 3D audio codec is meant to be part of the (wider) MPEG-H standard. This all makes a lot of sense, 'cos ;-) there is already some competition around: 1. Hamasaki 22.2, well known as (audio) part of former UHDTV (Super Hi-vision) proposals. 2. http://www.auro-3d.com/system/listening-formats (Note: a) The Auro-3D® Engine comprises: Auro Codec: The revolutionary codec that delivers native, discrete Auro-3D® content. Auro-Matic: The groundbreaking up-mixing algorithm that converts legacy content into the Auro- 3D® format. Auro-3D® Headphone: Like other audio configurations, similar results can be achieved with headphones that use binaural technology. b) Film, Broadcast, Gaming, Mobile, Automotive and Multimedia industries are all searching for a next generation sound format. With 3D Stereoscopic imagery becoming commonplace, the time is right for an audio experience that matches this increased level of fidelity. Sound in 3D is clearly the next step. 3. http://www.dolby.com/us/en/consumer/technology/movie/dolby-atmos.html (IMHO, Dolby won't participate in the MPEG standardization process. And even if, Dolby Atmos seems to be finished.) The curr
