[Sursound] An E-book froman ex-BBC engineer that some may find interesting

[Richard]

I hope you guys don't mind this, but i feel this e-book, written by Bill 
Aitken, ex of the BBC. I'm sure many here will find this of great interest. 
This is from Amazon:

"In the days before record companies took an interest in artists like The 
Beatles, Marc Bolan, Free and Queen, there was a small band of people at the 
BBC who championed their cause, broadcasting their music to millions often many 
months before these unknown performers landed their first recording contracts. 
This small band of BBC music producers and sound engineers never enjoyed the 
glamour and recognition accorded to their counterparts in the commercial 
recording business. But they played a key role in the development of UK rock 
music, despite their managers - many of whom were routinely apathetic, often 
obstructive and sometimes downright hostile. Recordings of their unique radio 
productions, live concerts and special studio sessions with these wonderful 
artists have given us a historic archive from the golden age of UK rock - from 
the likes of The Beatles and The Rolling Stones through The Kinks, The 
Yardbirds, The Who, Pink Floyd, Jethro Tull, Led Zeppelin, T Rex, Deep P
 urple, Elton John, Yes, Free, David Bowie, Def Leppard, Iron Maiden, U2 and 
beyond. Many of these historic recordings are now available on commercial 
release. But it is a miracle that this legacy exists at all. This book 
documents why these recordings were made in the first place, and how they 
somehow managed to survive, along with the stories of those who were there when 
history was being made - tales from the studios by those who put Rock On The 
Radio - a detailed testimony of the times which includes an extensive 
discography as well as hundreds of pictures, illustrations and photos of the 
period"

Amazon seem to be a bit slow, so here's the link to it:  
https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B00HCQAPM8




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Re: [Sursound] Encoding a 7.1 audio DVD ?

[Andy Furniss]

Stefan Schreiber wrote:


I would say that's debatable, in that bluray players should
accept Dolby/DCA and both are specified so that decoders skip
substreams/extensions that they don't know about.

Additionally if instructed, the player can just pass on
bitstreams without decoding to a receiver without caring what it
contains.

Of course there may not currently exist and decoders that could
use wxyz, but from a compatibility point of view I don't thing it
would be impossible for current disks/players to handle a stream
with wxyz embedded - they wouldn't know or care. Even a normal
decoder wouldn't care and could just do what it knows about.



This would be G format?


No b-format wxyz is the example given of an "audio asset" that may be
flagged as not directly being for speakers.


But I believe we already should aim for something far more complete.


Fair enough - I am in no way arguing in favor of DTS - I just mentioned
something I was surprised to see when looking at the spec for unrelated
reasons.



I am all in favour to find < some > more or less < agreed > solution,
 but what you describe would be  still a standard extension.

But if we are at this: I will post some proposal how to define some
Ambisonics based real-world standard (CE standard) during the next
days. (This  one will use more or less existing components.) In fact
there have been some private discussions, and I believe there have
been some results which might prove useful.


Of course a bespoke and open/free standard is going to be better



Using (currently) BD doesn't help quite a lot. You can use the
channels for B format/HOA channels (WXYZ etc.), but you can't feed
this into a normal decoder. (You would also need some flags to
bypass. I fear even this is not very well defined in HDMI etc. For
example, you can transmit/"bypass" TrueHD/DTS HD MA in a bitstream to
a receiver, but not "WXYZ". At least not yet. The mixing stage you
have described is actually in  the BD player, but then the receiver
will expect a HDMI PCM stream? Most probably...)


The DTS spec is referring to DTS-HD - so the player AIUI could just pass
the whole stream to a decoder which if "ambisonic aware" could get the
wxyz from the stream and if not ignore it.


Personally, I also believe that some disc based solution < should >
exist, but this is more the 2nd step. IMHO, you would define the
Ambisonics "CE" standard, and then the distribution via file formats,
 "on-disc" etc. (You would also define typical output configurations,
 like 5.1/6.1/7.1, hexagon, octagon, binaural.)

If you don't do this, you are getting stuck with FOA. More important
(if you don't care), some backward-compatible "hack extension" won't
permit to progress to higher orders in the future, say SOA/TOA.


Maybe, but DTS-HD and DTD_MA are by your definition "hack extensions"
themselves - again I don't in any way favor DTS over something better
and certainly don't even understand the spec well enough from just
skimming it to be sure of anything, but the there is mention of up to 32
channels in there somewhere.

FWIW it is freely available - just google ETSI TS 102 114 V1.4.1 pdf



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Re: [Sursound] OT: Digital stereo mini-mixers

[Eric Kofler]

Roland made a rack unit called the SRC-2 that might suffice.
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Re: [Sursound] OT: Digital stereo mini-mixers

[Eero Aro]

Jörn Nettingsmeier wrote:

i can't think of any commercial products that would fit this
requirement.


Not me either. I guess the main problem is the syncing.

I found this:
http://www.thomann.de/fi/dangerous_music_dbox.htm
...but 1444€ just for mixing two SPDIF signals??

A thing that comes to mind would be some Yamaha mixer that has YGDAI
slots. Yamaha has AES/EBU modules for them. But even after that you'd
need some tinkering to get the voltage levels right...

Do you necessarily want to stay in digital domain? Some simple analog
mixer and small SPDIF converters would be one possibility.
http://www.thomann.de/fi/lindy_audiokonverter_spdif_analog.htm

Eero
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Re: [Sursound] OT: Digital stereo mini-mixers

[Jörn Nettingsmeier]

On 12/18/2013 07:29 PM, Richard G Elen wrote:

Hi all...

I'm looking for an affordable stereo digital mixer, at least two digital
(S/PDIF) inputs and an S/PDIF output, 44.1/48kHz, capable of being
locked to an input for sample rate, knobs or faders is fine, plus an
analogue in (mic or line) would be a bonus.

In other words, not unlike a Roland M-1000 if they still made 'em.

Any recommendations on things to look at?


i can't think of any commercial products that would fit this 
requirement. but if you're the DIY kind of person, maybe the answer is 
yet again "raspberry pi"?


https://github.com/humppe/spdif-encoder

i'm not sure if it has two suitable GPIs to receive incoming, but maybe 
it's worth investigating. built-in analogue is pretty awful on the rpi, 
though...



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Lortzingstr. 11, 45128 Essen, Tel. +49 177 7937487

Meister für Veranstaltungstechnik (Bühne/Studio)
Tonmeister VDT

http://stackingdwarves.net

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[Sursound] OT: Digital stereo mini-mixers

[Richard G Elen]

Hi all...

I'm looking for an affordable stereo digital mixer, at least two digital 
(S/PDIF) inputs and an S/PDIF output, 44.1/48kHz, capable of being 
locked to an input for sample rate, knobs or faders is fine, plus an 
analogue in (mic or line) would be a bonus.


In other words, not unlike a Roland M-1000 if they still made 'em.

Any recommendations on things to look at?

Thanks!

Best,
--Richard E
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Re: [Sursound] Encoding a 7.1 audio DVD ?

[Stefan Schreiber]

Steven Dive wrote:


FWIW, the (expensive) Meridian domestic DSP's can accept and decode Dolby 
TrueHD, which is based upon MLP and one of their boxes can extract 8 channel 
from HDMI. Also, I know from direct experience that a G series decoder can 
accept and decode B-format from one of its sets of line inputs.
 



However, I doubt that Meridian's decoder would see any B format stream 
in a HDMI 7.1 "stream".


(If even in "HDMI 5.1", but better chance ?)

This is no standard, of course.



 


I would say that's debatable, in that bluray players should accept
Dolby/DCA and both are specified so that decoders skip
substreams/extensions that they don't know about.

Additionally if instructed, the player can just pass on bitstreams
without decoding to a receiver without caring what it contains.

Of course there may not currently exist and decoders that could use
wxyz, but from a compatibility point of view I don't thing it would be
impossible for current disks/players to handle a stream with wxyz
embedded - they wouldn't know or care. Even a normal decoder wouldn't
care and could just do what it knows about.



This would be G format?

But I believe we already should aim for something far more complete.


If a stream with wxyx were
not primary - and bluray can mux many soundtracks, you could even have
the core compatibility stream contain sound telling you that you need a
special setup to use this track.



 

I am all in favour to find < some > more or less < agreed > solution, 
but what you describe would be  still a standard extension.


But if we are at this: I will post some proposal how to define some 
Ambisonics based real-world standard (CE standard) during the next days. 
(This  one will use more or less existing components.)
In fact there have been some private discussions, and I believe there 
have been some results which might prove useful.


Using (currently) BD doesn't help quite a lot. You can use the channels 
for B format/HOA channels (WXYZ etc.), but you can't feed this into a 
normal decoder. (You would also need some flags to bypass. I fear even 
this is not very well defined in HDMI etc. For example, you can 
transmit/"bypass" TrueHD/DTS HD MA in a bitstream to a receiver, but not 
"WXYZ". At least not yet. The mixing stage you have described is 
actually in  the BD player, but then the receiver will expect a HDMI PCM 
stream? Most probably...)


Personally, I also believe that some disc based solution < should > 
exist, but this is more the 2nd step. IMHO, you would define the 
Ambisonics "CE" standard, and then the distribution via file formats, 
"on-disc" etc. (You would also define typical output configurations, 
like 5.1/6.1/7.1, hexagon, octagon, binaural.)


If you don't do this, you are getting stuck with FOA. More important (if 
you don't care), some backward-compatible "hack extension" won't permit 
to progress to higher orders in the future, say SOA/TOA.


For people who are critical of this: You didn't read anything yet, and 
it will be a proposal. (= up for discussion.)


(Standards have many functions: To allow implementations for engineers 
who are not super-experts/insiders (!), to bring < things into a 
framework/shape > etc.)



Best regards,

Stefan
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Re: [Sursound] Encoding a 7.1 audio DVD ?

[Augustine Leudar]

no idea Andy - Ill just have to give it a go and see what I find out 
blue ray burners are cheap enough - £40 on ebay plus a friend has the
software - Ill let you know how I get on


On 18 December 2013 16:09, Andy Furniss  wrote:

> Augustine Leudar wrote:
>
>> a blue ray disc player capable of playing 8 discrete channels.
>> Im assuming the LFE channel can be full range with 7.1 as it was with 5.1
>>
>> basically this :
>>
>> http://0.tqn.com/d/hometheater/1/0/r/P/1/toshibabdx2700rearconnect.jpg
>>
>> then it can just have the disc playing on a loop
>>
>
> OK - it may be that DTS codes .1 full range with MA and maybe core - if
> you did ever consider buying the encoder that's something to check.
>
> The reason I am not sure is that I saw some code to reconstruct LFE from
> decimated samples, but it's quite possible that it was only for the low
> bitrate profile.
>
> blu-ray can also do 8ch PCM AFAIK - that would be cheaper :-)
>
> though I guess you would still need some way to make the disk - and check
> if normal players will even play a disk you burned ...
>
>
>
>
>
>>
>> On 18 December 2013 15:12, Andy Furniss  wrote:
>>
>>  Augustine Leudar wrote:
>>>
>>>  Hi Eric,
>>>> this is what I have done in a couple of permanent installations. I use
>>>> a motu ultralite and a mini pc  (or mac). This is fine for an
>>>> installation that will never be touched. However even using linux or a
>>>> mac there are problems with this setup for permanent installations if
>>>> the staff want to turn the system on and off each day - even doing my
>>>> best to secure all usb and power cables even in a few short months I
>>>> have had to go up a couple of times just to reconnect cables that have
>>>> been jogged etc Plus power cuts can cause problems with software on
>>>> any system.   I want to simplify the system - one dedicated box with
>>>> an on/off switch and a play button that staff can easily operate and
>>>> has the minimum amount of variables that can go wrong.
>>>> I think this program might do it :
>>>>
>>>> http://www.dts.com/professionals/audio-software/
>>>> dts-hd-master-audio-suite/overview.aspx
>>>>
>>>> anyone used it ?
>>>>
>>>>
>>> If you need 8 full range channels then it doesn't look like that will do
>>> it -
>>>
>>> "Up to 7.1 ch. Discrete for Primary Audio for Blu-ray Disc"
>>>
>>> What is this "one dedicated box" going to contain?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>


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Re: [Sursound] Encoding a 7.1 audio DVD ?

[Andy Furniss]

Augustine Leudar wrote:

Hi Eric,
this is what I have done in a couple of permanent installations. I use
a motu ultralite and a mini pc  (or mac). This is fine for an
installation that will never be touched. However even using linux or a
mac there are problems with this setup for permanent installations if
the staff want to turn the system on and off each day - even doing my
best to secure all usb and power cables even in a few short months I
have had to go up a couple of times just to reconnect cables that have
been jogged etc Plus power cuts can cause problems with software on
any system.   I want to simplify the system - one dedicated box with
an on/off switch and a play button that staff can easily operate and
has the minimum amount of variables that can go wrong.
I think this program might do it :

http://www.dts.com/professionals/audio-software/dts-hd-master-audio-suite/overview.aspx

anyone used it ?


If you need 8 full range channels then it doesn't look like that will do 
it -


"Up to 7.1 ch. Discrete for Primary Audio for Blu-ray Disc"

What is this "one dedicated box" going to contain?

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Re: [Sursound] Encoding a 7.1 audio DVD ?

[Augustine Leudar]

Hi Eric,
this is what I have done in a couple of permanent installations. I use
a motu ultralite and a mini pc  (or mac). This is fine for an
installation that will never be touched. However even using linux or a
mac there are problems with this setup for permanent installations if
the staff want to turn the system on and off each day - even doing my
best to secure all usb and power cables even in a few short months I
have had to go up a couple of times just to reconnect cables that have
been jogged etc Plus power cuts can cause problems with software on
any system.   I want to simplify the system - one dedicated box with
an on/off switch and a play button that staff can easily operate and
has the minimum amount of variables that can go wrong.
I think this program might do it :

http://www.dts.com/professionals/audio-software/dts-hd-master-audio-suite/overview.aspx

anyone used it ?


On 17/12/2013, Eric Benjamin  wrote:
> Yeah...  You can put them on the disc, but you can't get them back.
>
> Likewise, I could envision putting up to the full 64 channels of audio onto
> a disc by first encoding it as AAC, and then stuffing the AAC into a
> quasi-PCM file which would be entered into the linear PCM zone on the disc.
>  But again, how would you play it?
>
> It seems to me that the easiest route for things like installations is some
> sort of miniature PC, like a Mac mini or an Intel NUC, and then an
> inexpensive 8-channel USB audio device. I think that could be done for
> perhaps $300 to $400.  Beyond 8-channels it gets a little more expensive.
>
>
> 
>  From: KK Proffitt 
> To: Surround Sound discussion group 
> Sent: Tuesday, December 17, 2013 12:14 PM
> Subject: Re: [Sursound] Encoding a 7.1 audio DVD ?
>
>
> While eight channel PCM was in the original DVD spec, it was, to my
> knowledge, never implemented in commercial players.
>
> Best,
>
> KK
> -
> KK Proffitt
> President, JamSync, Nashville
> Owner/Trustee: Hoodley Creek Farm, Afton, TN
> k...@jamsync.com
> www.jamsync.com
> www.tnfilmlocations.com
> www.surroundeffects.com
> twitter: jamsync
> twitter: kkproff
> facebook: http://www.facebook.com/pages/JamSync/102314633504
> phone: 615-320-5050
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Dec 16, 2013, at 10:20 AM, Augustine Leudar 
> wrote:
>
>> Seeing as there is a dearth of 8 channel players - I was thinking I could
>> just use a 7.1 DVD on a loop for an eight channel sound installation - as
>> long as I can send a seperate audio signal to each of the 8 (the LF sends
>> a
>> full range signal too) there shouldnt be a problem. I encoded 5.1 DVD
>> ages
>> ago  and I vaguely remember I needed several programs, one for encoding
>> AC3, one for authoring etc etc - does anyone know  programs would I need
>> to
>> encode a 7.1 DVD ?
>> best,
>> Gus
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Re: [Sursound] Encoding a 7.1 audio DVD ?

[Steven Dive]

FWIW, the (expensive) Meridian domestic DSP's can accept and decode Dolby 
TrueHD, which is based upon MLP and one of their boxes can extract 8 channel 
from HDMI. Also, I know from direct experience that a G series decoder can 
accept and decode B-format from one of its sets of line inputs.

On 18 Dec 2013, at 10:21, Andy Furniss  wrote:

> Stefan Schreiber wrote:
>> Andy Furniss wrote:
> 
>>> Nothing to do with this thread and I am not saying that any players
>>> use it, but I did see the words Ambisonic and WXYZ in the spec, so
>>> there is some provision for carrying and flagging as special
>>> b-format in a DTS extension stream.
>>> 
>> 
>> Maybe hidden in the TrueHD spec, but Blu-Ray doesn't support anything
>> like WXYZ. Having worked a bit on disc standards before, and never
>> saw anything of this...
> 
> I don't claim any expertise in anything I write here and am often wrong
> :-) but ...
> 
> I would say that's debatable, in that bluray players should accept
> Dolby/DCA and both are specified so that decoders skip
> substreams/extensions that they don't know about.
> 
> Additionally if instructed, the player can just pass on bitstreams
> without decoding to a receiver without caring what it contains.
> 
> Of course there may not currently exist and decoders that could use
> wxyz, but from a compatibility point of view I don't thing it would be
> impossible for current disks/players to handle a stream with wxyz
> embedded - they wouldn't know or care. Even a normal decoder wouldn't
> care and could just do what it knows about. If a stream with wxyx were
> not primary - and bluray can mux many soundtracks, you could even have
> the core compatibility stream contain sound telling you that you need a
> special setup to use this track.
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Sursound] Encoding a 7.1 audio DVD ?

[Andy Furniss]

Stefan Schreiber wrote:

Andy Furniss wrote:



Nothing to do with this thread and I am not saying that any players
use it, but I did see the words Ambisonic and WXYZ in the spec, so
there is some provision for carrying and flagging as special
b-format in a DTS extension stream.



Maybe hidden in the TrueHD spec, but Blu-Ray doesn't support anything
 like WXYZ. Having worked a bit on disc standards before, and never
saw anything of this...


I don't claim any expertise in anything I write here and am often wrong
:-) but ...

I would say that's debatable, in that bluray players should accept
Dolby/DCA and both are specified so that decoders skip
substreams/extensions that they don't know about.

Additionally if instructed, the player can just pass on bitstreams
without decoding to a receiver without caring what it contains.

Of course there may not currently exist and decoders that could use
wxyz, but from a compatibility point of view I don't thing it would be
impossible for current disks/players to handle a stream with wxyz
embedded - they wouldn't know or care. Even a normal decoder wouldn't
care and could just do what it knows about. If a stream with wxyx were
not primary - and bluray can mux many soundtracks, you could even have
the core compatibility stream contain sound telling you that you need a
special setup to use this track.



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